Talk:Den Harrow/Archive 1

For user 151.57.207.30
The birth name of the frontman of Den Harrow project is Manuel Stefano Carry born in Boston, Massachusetts, USA. The last name Zandri is his mother's last name which he adopted as he felt abandoned by his father later in his life.

There are so many people that come into this article and replace the frontman's last name with Zandri. Do not simply click on his official web site and read the first line and then come back to this article and change the last name. Please read further down what it says in his official web site.

I hope this will be the end of this vandalism.

Harout72 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harout72 (talk • contribs) 02:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

For Harout72
This is absolutely false Lately this guy is almost every day in italian TV, and we know him very well since he appears often in various shows. He even publicly confessed he cannot really sing, and that all the story was invented. Believe it is not vandalism it is the correct version of the article and YOU are vandalizing it.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=107280163

This is his real homepage on myspace if you want to ask him personally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.11.132 (talk) 20:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Ask him a question on "my space"
You do realize that my space could be invented by anybody and anybody could pretend to be the frontman of Den Harrow? My space is entirely unreliable/unofficial source. If you could perhaps include a link to one of those shows wherein, according to you, he has made an appearance and has confessed about his birth name being Stefano Zandri, then that would be very helpful. As to whether he has sung his own songs or not, I have included a link of an interview given by Tom Hooker (who happened to be the original singer of most of the hits in the '80s) within the article as a source of reference. However, I will go ahead and leave the changes you've made for now by only correcting your English grammer.

Thanks, Harout72 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harout72 (talk • contribs) 21:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

What about the home page disappearing? And TV?

And he is offering free download of his songs on myspace you think RIAA would allow this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.11.132 (talk) 22:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KlOhF7qEmc&mode=related&search= The most famous appearance of Den Harrow on Italian TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdMnR9L5wp4 old one from 1999

http://www.matchmusic.it/programma.htm?programma=21

The link to his TV show on satellite tv

Den Harrow on satellite tv http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq18Av9NmAQ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.11.132 (talk) 22:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Commercial for the new single http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zwFfZQ85To —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.11.132 (talk) 22:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Stop spreading FUD


 * RIAA does not have control over the projects released in Italian market. I think you mean FIMI, which again would not waste time on projects that are not on major record companies or something that's been out of print for over a decade.

By the way, I am only trying to make this article sound as true as I possibly can, I welcome any kind of new info which we can back up by rational sources. Thanks for the links, by the way, Harout

I read on his homepage that he left his old producer for a new one, thus the old site you linked www.denharrow.net disappeared and the new one www.den-harrow.net presented during the italian version of Survivor appeared.

And the myspace page believe it or not is really him.


 * SIAE could perhaps be translated as the billboard in the States or Media Control in Germany. But FIMI is the Federazione Industria Musicale Italiana(Italian Phonographic Industry). Harout

SIAE hold the copyrigth and distributes the provents among the artists like RIAA does in the US so it is in this case the correct counterpart, not the literal translation. to be short SIAE pursues copyright infringments in italy, FIMI is a voluntary association among privates to enforce the copyrights of his members.

Since you only believe links (but dont provide them for your affirmations) this is the statute of SIAE http://www.siae.it/documents/bg_normativa_statuto_1995.pdf and this is the statute of FIMI http://www.fimi.it/statuto.asp

I made a mistake, he wrote his new single with Federica Bertoni, they meet at matchmusic btw and live together but are not married even if he promised it crying during a reality show (see the first youtube link) what a liar this guy!

He will be on italian tv again on 16 oct 2007 14:00 I can record the show for you if you want :-)


 * That will be great, thanks. As for the SIAE pursuing copyright infringments in Italy I can't argue with that as I am not from Italy, however, it is normally done by the controler of Phonographic Industry (Gold/Platinum certifiers) as it is the case of RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) in U.S. or IFPI (International Federation of the Phonographic Industry) in Germany, Norway, U.K. for example and honestly speaking, it should be the same with FIMI (Federazione Industria Musicale Italiana) in Italy. It does seem like FIMI http://www.fimi.it/statuto.asp explains the rights maticulously. Thanks again, Harout  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harout72 (talk • contribs) 23:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Lets stop this futile discussion and PLEASE stop vandalizing this page!!!! I added also a link to a recording of a TV show where he explicitly confesses his real name and origins.

For harout72
And I want to add that you can stop to boast yourself of knowing Italian, I'm Italian btw. If you don't believe what the people are saying about Den Harrow real surname, maybe you can check his interview here: http://www.lineamusica.it/index.php?sessione=&Idnews=2467&action=SHOW&nomelink=news.php&

In particular you can read this line:

D.: Ciao Den, allora, iniziamo dicendo che il Manuel Carry che negli anni 80 diceva di essere nato a Boston si chiama in realtà Stefano Zandri ed è italiano a tutti gli effetti; prima di parlare del personaggio Den Harrow, vuoi parlarci della persona Stefano Zandri?

R.: Stefano Zandri nasce in Italia a Nova Milanese in provincia di Milano il 4 giugno 1962.

If you don't trust this, you can do a check at "ufficio anagrafe" of Milan. It's about 5 euros. Maybe you can ask them from wikipedia funds :) In other words, you criticize who citate the page on the blog, but if i own "www.pincopallino.com" (that's my official site! wow!) and i write on it that's my real name is Silvio Berlusconi, i've adopted Berlusconi surname after my uncle Silvio decided to adopt me in his house, do you think that would be true? Think, before you speak.

If you will continue to believe that this man is born in Boston, and his surname is Carry it's ok. That will prove what people are saying about wikipedia: a nice site with a nice idea, but made also by people with "mania of grandeur". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.4.27.53 (talk) 08:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

And this is the final proof
Dear harout72, you can check also his official site. http://www.den-harrow.net/DENHARROW.htm You are so good in Italian language, aren't you? Of course not. Read about the story of his name and stop saying fake things. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.4.27.53 (talk) 10:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, ok, Jesus, I'm convinced now that you can read and write Italian just calm down before you give yourself a heart attack. First of all, I don't boast myself of knowing Italian and most definitely I'm not here to spread out wrongful information. Second of all, you could have very friendly and calmly included the links (that you are now getting personal about) at the time of replacing his name and perhaps also a brief explanation in the discussion would be nice about what's being said about Den Harrow in Italy. The bottom line is that this project was very well done both composition wise and vocally and it's a pity that they were bunch of phonies to their fans, and there is still a lot of false information about it up until today. This, I discussed with someone already (see discussions above) and have modified the article. So this is nothing personal, just a project the truth of which needed multiple verifications. --Harout72 00:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

False information?
This article is mostly unsourced, and likely largely incorrect. For example it claims Den Harrow had four top-twenty singles in Sweden. As I had never heard of Den Harrow, I found this unlikely, and can't find any reference to any of Den Harrows singles to have become top-twenty anywhere, let alone in Sweden. Here is a list of all Swedish top-ten singles since 1975: http://www.orjans.se/sverigetop20singles.html Note the complete lack of Den Harrow singles. --86.69.114.118 (talk) 15:15, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, it seems to me that Den Harrow has had at least one top-20 single in Sweden,  "Catch the Fox", also the album   Overpower(1986) has entered the top-30 album chart and the album by Day''(1987) has reached number #25. I believe those are plausible entries.--Harout72 (talk) 17:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

New Wave
This is NOT New Wave, its ID —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.72.216.156 (talk) 21:41, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

It is not incorrect to state Produce vocals
This is with regards to the reversions of the anonymous IP beginning with 99.... The IP claims in this edit that singers do not produce. It is quite correct to state Another vocalist, Anthony James from England, was contracted to sing the lead vocals on the Lies album released in 1988, who also produced the lead vocals on songs like "Holiday Night", "My Time", "You have a way"., see one example of Produce vocals here. Also, bear in mind that statements as the one in this edit-summary can constitute Personal attack.--Harout72 (talk) 04:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * How is 'provided' less appropriate? Btw, looking over his track record, it makes one wonder as to why this user always fights over petty trivialities.99.141.243.208 (talk) 23:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to ask you the same question since I have already provided one source that uses the term produce rather than provide. What exactly makes produced in that very context less correct or inappropriate that you insist on replacing it with provide by fighting your way through with edit-warring. If you are going to insist on inserting the word provide, you might want to discuss why you believe that it's more correct.--Harout72 (talk) 00:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

How to report the recent dispute with Tom Hooker
The following content was inappropriate for a Wikipedia article:


 * Stefano Zandri, in recent years, resorted to numerous insults and even threats aimed at Tom Hooker and his family via Facebook, in 2010, for the latter exposing the facts concerning the vocal authenticity of Den Harrow's recordings, which prompted Hooker to release an official video footage on YouTube.

This poorly written claim, attributed to Tom Hooker's YouTube video, cannot be allowed to stand because it is a violation of the WP:BLP policy. Any biographical statements must be attributed to a reliable source, especially when the information is damaging or could in any way be contested. There are general and specific guidelines for reliable sources, and they clearly exclude self-published content like Tom Hooker's rants on YouTube. The most we are allowed to say, based on the video alone (and even this may be a risk), is that Tom Hooker said that Zandri threatened his family, and Tom Hooker said that these alleged threats are what prompted him to record and release this video. It isn't about whether Zandri made threats, it's about what sources we're allowed to cite and what kinds of claims we're allowed to make based on those sources. Basically, if using Hooker's statements as a source, we have to keep the focus on Hooker, not Zandri. So if Hooker said something like "Zandri pulled a gun on me", it wouldn't matter if it was absolutely true or not, we still couldn't say, based on Hooker's statement alone, that Zandri actually pulled a gun on Hooker, only that "Hooker said Zandri pulled a gun on him."


 * In the footage, Hooker, discloses that he's been insulted by Den Harrow's fans on Facebook for claiming to be the real singer behind all Den Harrow project's hits. In the video, Tom Hooker demonstrates the similarity between his voice and the original recordings of Den Harrow by first playing an excerpt from the single "Future Brain" on the laptop and immediately after singing an A cappella for the same part of the song.

This is just summarizing the video and isn't contentious, but contains unnecessary detail.


 * Hooker then officially declares that Stefano Zandri no longer has his permission to lip sync to Den Harrow's songs recorded with Tom Hooker's voice.

The way this is phrased is problematic. The word "officially" is meaningless. I can "officially" declare whatever I want, but that doesn't make it something enforceable. What authority does Hooker really have? He implies Zandri only had permission to lip-synch because he was under contract, and that the permission was revoked when the contracts expired, but it doesn't sound like Hooker has a case since Zandri performs as "Den Harrow", not as "Tom Hooker", so there's no misrepresentation occurring...unless Hooker wants to say that he has legal control of the "Den Harrow" name, still. In any case, this is a legal matter which must be resolved between the disputing parties. It is not for us to divine what is in the contracts or to assume that Hooker actually has the authority to grant or revoke permission for Zandri to lip-synch.

To address the issues above, in August 2011 I rephrased the entire section so that it is now the following terse summary:


 * ''In 2010, Tom Hooker recorded and published on YouTube a press conference-style video in which Hooker, flanked by Den Harrow co-producer Miki Chierigato, states and demonstrates that he was the vocalist on most of the Den Harrow records, and in which he accuses Zandri of continuing to publicly lip synch to those recordings. He also alleges that Zandri made threats and insults against Hooker and his family on Facebook for exposing the vocal inauthenticity of the Den Harrow recordings. Hooker asserts that Zandri no longer has permission to publicly lip sync to Den Harrow recordings that use Tom Hooker's voice.

I believe this is an accurate, neutral summary of the dispute, as sourced from Hooker's video on YouTube. I tried to avoid going into unnecessary detail. I tried to make it clear that Hooker said things about Zandri, rather than just repeating Hooker's statements as fact. And I did not report anything from the assumption that Tom Hooker really has the authority to grant or revoke lip-synch permission. Lastly, I changed the section heading from the ridiculously verbose "Tom Hooker's response to Den Harrow's threats and official disclosure about Den Harrow's voice" to the simple "Dispute with Tom Hooker", which is more to-the-point.

None of these changes should be contentious, yet the visitor from 99.* Chicago-based IPs has twice reverted it, explaining after the second time "you're welcome to confirm the authenticity of his allegations by contacting Hooker via Facebook and request a transcript of the exchange". I will make no such contact with Hooker because, as I explained above, it doesn't matter; Hooker's public, self-published statements are the only source we can work with, and they can only be used as a reliable source for the fact that those statements were made, not whether they're true. —mjb (talk) 05:39, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Unreliable YouTube video file
The statement about "Zandri publicly ignoring and violating Hooker's demand to stop lip syncing" based on the unclear and unreliable YouTube video file which the IP beginning 99....(changes every time) keeps inserting is a file that could have easily been manipulated. We are not to use YouTube video files according to WP:RSE. The video file; however, supports that Stefano Zandri is the one singing. It is Zandri's voice live throughout the entire video file. Except, in the very beginning of Future Brain (at 7:41-8:45 minutes), and also in the very beginning of "Don't Break My Heart" (at 10:51-11:50 minutes). Both of those parts are accapella and it takes a professional singer to sing, and Zandri isn't. But clearly the file, IF NOT MANIPULATED in any way, doesn't constitute Zandri publicly ignoring and violating Hooker's demand to stop lip syncing.--Harout72 (talk) 23:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Zandri mimes first to non-Hooker's tracks (including Pozzoli's version of Mad Desire) and then you hear CLEARLY NATIVE pronunciation of English language in the entire remainder of the song selection performed at during gig - all of which are Hooker's sung songs. Zandri clearly mimes over them, as "his" voice keeps changing depending on original vocalist's voice, depending on a song that is played in the (pre)recording. The file is not manipulated. If it is (according to you), then so can be Hooker's "press-conference" video. If that's the case, how do you prove that Hooker did not forge parts of his own video with voice-alterations? You can't arbitrarily accept Hooker's video as solid evidence and simultaneously treat the recording of Zandri's gig as a doctored one.99.141.252.82 (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If the file isn't manipulated, then Zandri seems to have learned how to sing, because his voice and also his accent are quite audible. However, the video cannot be used because the visual is unclear; therefore, difficult to judge whether the voice is coming out of his mouth or someone else's in the backstage. But clearly it's not Hooker's except, of course, for the parts that I mentioned above. In any case, the video file MUST NOT and CANNOT be used. On the other hand, Hooker's video is very clear and authentic, and easy to see that it's him providing the accappella at 4:22-4:44.--Harout72 (talk) 01:43, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Zandri's voice is audible, which is true, however it is in some occasional parts only simply because he sings OVER Hooker's playback. In fact, Hooker shows how Zandri does it in that same video with Miki, where Zandri yells in the mic "you never pray" in front of crowd at a mall and then continues to mime to Hooker's voice. This is what Hooker accused Zandri of and this is what Zandri resorted to doing again. There's no difference in video authenticity between the two video files and you know it well and that's why you have no argument to prove it otherwise and you just keep appealing to authority as your rational all while resorting to citing bogus and primitive explanations as to how Zandri's actions in his video supposedly leave room for doubts.99.142.12.240 (talk) 17:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The two videos are entirely different in clarity. We don't have to play this back and forth. You can request for third opinion if you wish.--Harout72 (talk) 22:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

To pretentious & hysterical editor named Harout72
Not sure what your agenda is and not really care to learn of it. But one thing is clear: you wish to launder Zandri's image... which is fine. However, when you provocatively (mind you) ask for sources, even though you have them at you disposal, it makes one wonder as to what is it you are really after. Hooker's allegations in his video are clearly aimed at Zandri's recent (aka late 2000's) lip-syncing performances. I would suggest considering treating that evidence as a starting point if you are looking for cues as keenly as you appear. 99.142.0.178 (talk) 04:10, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Before anything, you need to become familiar with Civility which you have clearly violated with the title of this discussion thread. Every time you insert unsourced statements trying to repeatedly portray Zandri in a negative light, is nothing but Disruptive editing. The YouTube video is no evidence that Zandri continues to lip-sync to Hooker's voice after Hooker launched that video. Now, since you've already violated two of wikipedia policies on a single page, instead of coming back here and making unconstructive edits, I suggest that you try and find yourself another source of entertainment.--Harout72 (talk) 04:25, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your... thoughful response. It is truly worthy of a demagogue and a provocateur you are. 99.142.0.178 (talk) 04:42, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * By the way, with your fourth revert on the same day, you have now violated the WP:3RR. That is three violations on a single day and counting.--Harout72 (talk) 05:14, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Genre
After it being edit warred over again, I've combined the references in the infobox. Two genres, each with two refs. I don't have a strong opinion about this but it seems like the most neutral way to leave it (until uninvolved parties happen by) is to grant that these four sources are all at least marginally reliable such that it would require a discussion here to find consensus that one set is the only reliable set. --&mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 02:38, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not particularly convinced either way for the references supporting new wave. The first source, Brutal Resonance, is a respectable webzine, with a sizable staff. It's Alexa rating is very, very low, but I'm not sure if that should be a deal-clincher. More importantly, the article used to support Den Harrow as new wave only calls a single song by Den Harrow new wave, which on its own is not enough to warrant a mention in the infobox. The second source is an article by DJ Nitrogen for ChuckURadio.com. While not a major radio station, it is professional, so I see no inherent reason to discredit it. However, the article mentions Wikipedia in the first paragraph. While the article is not a copy-paste of the Wikipedia article, there is good reason to assume that DJ Nitrogen's label of Den Harrow as "an Italian New Wave production" is taken from the Wikipedia article. See this version of the article, which is the latest revision that pre-dates the ChuckURadio piece.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 15:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * There is this site in Italian Corriere della Sera that supports Den Harrow being new wave. Any thoughts? Seems reliable to me.--Harout72 (talk) 15:58, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't read Italian, so I put it through Google Translate. To me, it appears that the source is talking about 80s music in general. All sorts of genres are mentioned. I don't think it can really support new wave at all.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me   &#124;  See what I have done  ) 18:15, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, the article basically talks about how new wave genre was developed, what were the elements involved in new wave. And along the way it mentions new wave acts/artists, including Den Harrow. But since it doesn't directly call Den Harrow new wave, I suppose this may not be the best source for us.--Harout72 (talk) 18:38, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

regarding this, if "the term Italo Disco doesn't necessarily mean disco, it means dance" but the agreed title for that article is Italo Disco, why wouldn't we just use the term "Italo Disco"? If there's a more accurate name, shouldn't that be addressed at the Italo disco article? --&mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 01:43, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, the term Italo Disco translates in English Italian Dance, not necessarily Italian Disco. The term Italo Disco was meant to be used for all dance music coming from Italy in the 1980s mainly, whether it be New Wave or Synthpop or Dance-pop. There was no Disco music in the mid '80s, but the term Italo Disco was still being used to refer to Italian Dance Music. Italo Disco is a term that German label owner Bernard Mikulski came up with, which he'd put on all of the compilations released by ZYX at the time. Wikipedia's page for Italo Disco does explain that it is a term used to refer to Italian electronic dance music.--Harout72 (talk) 02:54, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * That's informative, but for the purpose of an infobox as long as our article is called "italo disco" we should probably use that term here as well. If the distinction is important/sufficiently sourced you might consider proposing an article name change there? --&mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 05:01, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

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