Talk:Dendermonde nursery attack

Death toll
The death toll has increased to four, as one of the injured children has died, just look here or here. It's not my fault that there aren't any English sources yet. (Lord Gøn (talk) 15:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC))
 * Okay, understood. Please update the article with the refs, if you can.  Spencer T♦C 15:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: I can verify that from the foreign language reports if anyone else needs to know. --➨♀♂ Candlewicke STundefined 16:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * these reports are wrong, the government confirmed that 2 people died on the scene, and one infant died in the hospital, the reports of 4 people come from french-speaking sources, who may have misunderstood the statement.
 * Here is an English-speaking Belgian source. deredactie.be. Pevernagie (talk) 16:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: I say three now too. The German language source has been revised to three. --➨♀♂ Candlewicke STundefined 16:52, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * For now, I think its best to assume three and say "at least 3", etc.  Spencer T♦C 16:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The wounded are no longer in life threatening danger. Pevernagie (talk) 16:56, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there a source for that? The article seems to say three are in danger. And the "at least three" will cover any future fluctuations at any rate. --➨♀♂ Candlewicke STundefined 17:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's in Dutch, but I will provide you with a translated pagehln.be The title is wrongly translated, but the rest seems to be translated fairly well. Pevernagie (talk) 17:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd also say three now. Too much confusion out there in the news. (Lord Gøn (talk) 17:08, 23 January 2009 (UTC))

Here is an English source that says
 * "Ten children, including the two most seriously injured, and two adults underwent surgery and were out of danger, a doctor, Ignace De Meyer, told reporters."

if you still need it. Cheers, Ben (talk) 01:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Map
I think this article needs a different map. That looks more like Ohio than any area of Europe I'm familiar with. Spacehusky (talk) 05:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * East Flanders happens to be a similar shape to Ohio, but I don't know what other map could be used. Nietzsche 2 (talk) 06:25, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps one of Belgium, because I doubt most people here have heard of the province of East-Flanders prior to this attack. 78.23.54.112 (talk) 08:04, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I've uploaded a map of Belgium with Dendermonde shown in red (picture on the right).  Jolly  Ω   Janner  11:42, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Good work!Sijo Ripa (talk) 11:54, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Much better. Perhaps it should be inserted into the article of the location too just in case the place has some future international significance and the image is required again. --➨♀♂ Candlewicke STundefined 18:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Reference to Heath Ledger
I dont understand the relevance of this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.208.75 (talk) 12:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC) For some reason I can't edit this page. Anyway here is what I wanted to share on this, maybe someone else will put it in: Aside from the almost coincidence of the anniversary of the death of Heath Ledger (a year and a day beforehand), is also the fact that Heath's father is called Kim, and that Gelder is an anagram of Ledger. That the murderer, who several eyewitnesses reported was made up with red hair, a white face and black eyes had a morbid identification with the Joker character (not necessarily with the actor) seems hereby established.Fbunny (talk) 11:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * A police officer confirmed: “He had his face painted like Heath Ledger playing The Joker.” The attack took place exactly one year and one day after the death of the actor. He used a knife like the Joker did in The Dark Knight. You don't see the connection ? Hektor (talk) 12:52, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the- inaccurate- opinion/description of the poilce oficer and shouldn't be used as citable fact in the article. That De Gelder's face painting was a Joker reference is mere speculation at this point and should be treated as such.
 * I do not know what the anonymous user meant. But my view is that there is of course a possible and well-cited connection with The Joker. But the connection with the death of HL (one year and one day) seems far-fetched and is not mentioned in the articles as a motive or trigger. Sijo Ripa (talk) 13:05, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The date connection is referenced in this AFP entry which is unfortunately in French : "Le journal souligne également que la tuerie de Termonde s'est produite précisément un an et un jour après la mort par surdose de Heath Ledger, le 22 janvier 2008." You have similar date coincidences with the Columbine High School massacre. Hektor (talk) 15:08, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The date connection was also referenced on televised Flemish news (VTM mentioned it on their 19:00 journal this evening) -- 80.200.93.200 (talk) 20:42, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

His surname is in fact de Gelder, and as such as not an anagram of Ledger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.208.75 (talk) 13:16, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said, Gelder is an anagram of Ledger. It is also the nominal part of his surname. Duh.Fbunny (talk) 16:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't mean to spoil any beautiful theories, but the Joker has green hair. -- 134.102.101.60 (talk) 01:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's wait until news reports confirm Kim De Gelder suffers from daltonism. MaartenVidal (talk) 21:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Although another section detailing media and fan speculation may be appropriate- seperating the `joker/ledger' stuff from the factual bones of the main article

Killer information
I have not much experience with editing Wikipedia, so I thought I'd bring it up on talk page not to destroy the article on accident.

The killer has been identified by now. His name is Kim De Gelder, a 20 year old male, unemployed and living on his own in a small rented apartment. I don't have an internet source, this was told earlier tonight on Belgian television news. If it's relevant perhaps someone here could edit it in. -- 80.200.93.200 (talk) 20:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Here is a source gva.be. Pevernagie (talk) 22:06, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

On this blog a few people have posted who claim to have known the murderer, they all say he was very quiet and withdrawn at school and two report that he had a tendency to chuckle to himself. He appears to have finished high school with a vocational qualification as a pharmacy assistant.Fbunny (talk) 11:44, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Main Page?
This article has little to no relevance on a worldwide scale. This is the kind of crap we would see on Fox news. The news mentioned on the main page is usually of at least national or international significance, such as a Presidential election, a military coup, a treaty, whatever. Wikipedia is not (or was not) a scare tabloid with headlines about people murdering infants. Some guy (talk) 09:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It was not just a fox news item, it was mentioned in about every news broadcast around the world, that is why it is mentioned on the main page. Pevernagie (talk) 10:20, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Other murder
There are "strong indications" that Kim De Gelder has also murdered an elderly lady a week before the creche murders. Perhaps we should rename (=move) this page to a "Kim De Gelder" article which would then cover both crimes. A seperate Kim De Gelder page would add little new, so I would prefer to avoid a duplication of articles. Sijo Ripa (talk) 12:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it necessary to do that? The murder of the old lady is not really world shocking news. The world was shocked because somebody went inside a day care center and started murdering infants, not because it was Kim De Gelder who did it. Pevernagie (talk) 19:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it necessary to omit it? Does it *have* to be "really world shocking news"?! I didn't realize we were writing a newspaper; the nursery attack is quickly becoming an important event for crime investigators and criminology. Flex Flint (talk) 23:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not sure this individual warrants an article just yet. As I recall, there were similar crimes in Dunblane, Scotland and in Beslan, Russia (though the former example is more on point here). In the Dunblane massacre, the lone perpetrator was identified, but is not the subject of an article, as per the BLP subsection on articles about people notable only for one event. The Russian attack is slightly different, as it was a terrorist action by Chechen separatists and some of the hostage-takers were previously known prior to the attacks. It might be something of an unwritten corollary of the OneEvent guidelines that Wikipedia doesn't create memorials (ie, articles) for these folk. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  03:36, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Good points, and I concur with your reasoning about De Gelder not warranting his own page, but this article is about the event itself. Following that line: if we would purposefully omit the fact that he murdered a fourth person (bordering on certainty, but there is a press stop as of a few days ago), then my question is: are we still being complete? Flex Flint (talk) 13:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

correct name of one of the victims
It is Corneel Vermeir, not Korneel Vermeir. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gh78787 (talk • contribs) 18:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source that is more credible than the friend of the parents who had to tell them their son is dead? Pevernagie (talk) 19:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the population register in the town hall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gh78787 (talk • contribs) 11:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Je bedoelt het bevolkingsregister, ik wist niet dat je dat zomaar in mocht kijken? Pevernagie (talk) 15:22, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ja, de gemeente bevolking. Ik denk dat dat wat wordt gevraagd. - Arcayne   (cast a spell)  03:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * @Pevernagie (translated - "I didn't know it was allowed to check the population register"): I didn't know either, and if I'm not mistaken, it's forbidden to check for other people's information in there. You even have to ask for a permit to watch your own files. So I think Gh78787 is either wrong, doing illegal things, or both. Flex Flint (talk) 14:00, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Restructure
User Joecashfire added the template Restructure at and then indicating a requirement for a "major clean-up". What needs to be done achieving this? Nsaa (talk) 17:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Nsaa, see the banner on top of the article's page: "This article or section may require restructuring to meet Wikipedia's quality standards." See the relevant links therein. Flex Flint (talk) 23:13, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:Death Assessment Commentary
The article was assessed as C-class, for lack of adequate coverage. The last time any news was added was in 2009; surely the case against the suspect has proceeded since that time. The article needs to be updated.Boneyard90 (talk) 07:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * You'd think so, but it's Belgium. They selected a jury for the trial just today. I have by no means been actively following the case, but I don't believe too much has happened in between. — WardMuylaert (talk) 18:05, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I have seen a few interesting bits here and there, even though I didn't follow it too closely, so the article could definitely be improved and expanded a lot. It just seems that nobody cares enough to invest some time in it. I would do it, if I weren't such a lazy bum. (Thusz (talk) 18:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC))

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