Talk:Deng Xi

https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/spr2017/entries/school-names/exploits.html

Xing-Ming vs Fajia or "Legalism"
Although it takes time, I try to choose and correlate my words as closely as possible with scholarship. My words not are chosen willy-nilly. If I had put Xing-Ming instead of Fajia or Legalism, which I did, it is because there is a distinction in fact, even if the ancient Chinese tend to slur things together. Xing-Ming is a specific practice, it is not merely or even necessarily a category even if Sima Qian slurred Shang Yang into it.

In-order to provide for the distinction, ideally I would ultimately make a page. That is, Ideally I would develop a second page for Xing-Ming. Xing-Ming is more identified with the Shen Buhai to Han Fei branch, albeit Shen practiced an earlier version. It is highly unlikely that one would associate it with early "Legalists" like Li Kui, Zichan etc.

I originally had Deng Xi as an originator of Xing-Ming, not Fajia "Legalism". Sima Qian groups together statesmen as ORIGINATORS of Xing-Ming, but while, as a Mohist derivative, Shang Yang practiced a names doctrine, there is no indication that he actually practiced the Xing-Ming doctrine of either Shen Buhai or the later Han Fei.

In short, I try to do what is most accurate, and thus best, for my subject. I do in fact have a fairly good idea of what I am doing at this point, and putting it as xing-ming was intentional. It is not merely wording. Accurate terminologies do in fact correlate to their specific, rather than general, categories, and I choose them to avoid confusing the subject. I choose them in correlation with scholarship.FourLights (talk) 00:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Things Xing-Ming is
 * 1. Xing-Ming is Han Fei's practice correlating proposals and results. Shen Buhai is antendated to it, even though he did not use the term, using an earlier version lacking punishment. Other later figures use the practice in personnel management, ultimately founding the Academy. They may prefer Shen Buhai's version disadvising penal practice, while still making use of Han Fei's craft.
 * 2. A method of personnel management associated with the managerial Shu Shen Buhai wing of the Fajia as elaborated by Creel
 * 3. A method used in Han dynasty penal practice, probably more specifically in relation to the administration.

Things Xing-Ming probably is not
 * 1. Sima Tan's Fajia school of thought, which has no one named under it, but which has people retroactively associated with it later.
 * 2. Fajia-associated early statesmen who did not practice it. This includes Shang Yang even though Sima Qian names him as an originator.
 * 3. A category. Xing-Ming is a practice.
 * 4. Legalism, a conventional English term indicating pre-1993 scholarship which associated the theorists with Legal positivism. A number of scholars refuse to use the term, including Creel, Goldin, and Yuri Pines. Creel founded the early modern understanding of the subject in 1974 prior to the Mohist advent. The primary modern interpretation for the subject, including that of the Oxford (2011), is Mohist and logician, i.e. School of names. The only legal comparative I am even aware of for the subject modernly is Kenneth Winston (2005), who also argued against legal positivist interpretation, for which I am not aware of a single adherent.

Deng-Xing is associated, as I had stated, as an originator of the Xing-Ming practice. Not the Fajia category, which has persons who did not practice it, and whome Han Fei criticizes for not practicing it under the rubric of Shu technique.FourLights (talk) 01:19, 15 August 2023 (UTC)