Talk:Densha otaku

Requested move 1 June 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move, but no consensus on where to move. Per WP:NOGOODOPTIONS, I am moving to Densha otaku as the closest to the status quo; editors who disagree with that choice may open a new RM at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 20:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Densha Otaku → Densha otaku – It's not a proper noun; shouldn't in title case, should be in sentence case. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 05:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe Edits! Talk! 00:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 20:30, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Move to Railfans in Japan. There is nothing special about the foreign-language term (which could be translated literally as "train geek") that would suggest we need to retain it when discussing the topic in English. Dekimasu よ! 06:02, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support this alt title. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 06:20, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose alt title. The Japanese language term describes the uniqueness of railway enthusiasm to that country. The history and specific cultural manifestations (such as collecting train jingles or bento boxes) is specific to this context. Also ‘railfan’ is an Americanism which makes the topic title too generic. Wikociewie (talk) 08:15, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Disagree with this reasoning. Being generic is the entire point per WP:COMMONNAME. Using English is per WP:ENGLISHTITLE. It's an unfortunate reality that this means non-English concepts are being represented by foreign comparisons (densha otaku are not the same as railfans elsewhere), but that's what Wikipedia has decided for the policies. You can see this in action in other places; Japanese castle is not called "Shiro (castle)". It is being described using an English word that evokes the European concept of a castle (which noncoincidentally is described at castle, see Talk:Castle), when really they're pretty different from shiro.
 * I kinda dislike this aspect of WP:COMMONNAME, but there's upsides. Either way, until that policy changes we abide by it. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 10:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I have no preference as far as "railfan" vs. "railway enthusiast" vs. "trainspotter", etc., but the main article is at Railfan, so Railfans in Japan would be WP:CONSISTENT. I disagree that the Japanese language term is doing anything in particular here. Densha simply means "train", not "Japanese train". As far as specific cultural aspects of railway enthusiasm in Japan, that's described by the content of the article rather than the title. Dekimasu よ! 14:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Minor note from me, but I was more concerned about what "otaku" is doing, not "densha". Otaku carries different connotations to "geek" in the West. While they're fairly close meanings, there is still a semantic difference, similar to castle vs shiro. Still, I generally feel that the differences are small enough and that common name is useful enough that we can just use English-lang analogs in many cases. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support removing unnecessary capitalisation.Wikociewie (talk) 08:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment: Relist to try to determine consensus between Densha otaku and Railfans in Japan BilledMammal (talk) 20:30, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support lower cap otaku, oppose railfans. GScholar gave me 26 uses for the current title (without cap), and zero for "Railfans in Japan". Some sources used the term "train fans" to explain it but none used "train fans in Japan". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Of the 26 results on Google Scholar, 9 are in foreign languages, 6 are typos for Densha Otoko (capitalized), 1 is a hit for "train (densha) otaku" which is therefore clearly not suggesting the use of "densha otaku" as a phrase, 1 is a hit for the phrase "train otaku or densha otaku", and all of the other hits are directly followed by glosses of either "train fans" or "train geeks". The suggestion Railfans in Japan is a descriptive title and not an attempt to make the case that there is a common name for this phenomenon in English. Clearly the Google Scholar hits do not indicate an established use of the phrase "densha otaku" in English. Rather it indicates that the phrase needs to be explained to English audiences every time it is used. I would have no problem with Train fans in Japan, but as above, note that the parent article is at Railfan. Dekimasu よ! 09:08, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support railfans in Japan. Per WP:UE: In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader. Dekimasu's analysis of the Google Scholar results convinces me that there is not an established English-language treatment for this topic's name; the responses to Wikociewie's comment convince me that translating the title would improve understanding without meaningfully losing accuracy. Thus, WP:UE would favor an English-language title, and "railfans in Japan" would be WP:CONSISTENT with the parent article at railfans. (Note that, while I prefer to translate this title, I also believe that the lowercased "densha otaku" would be an improvement over the current title.) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 20:04, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose railfans in Japan, per Wikociewie. Applying an Americanism to a topic specifically about the Japanese is rather convoluted, especially since there are alternate options. If there was enough information about railway enthusiasts in the UK, I imagine the article would not be "Railfans in the United Kingdom", but rather "trainspotters". Mind you, this isn't a hypothetical, as we do have an article titled Trainspotters in the United Kingdom. The proposed 'Railfans in Japan' does meet WP:ENGLISHTITLE but does not meet WP:COMMONNAME. An actually generic title would be necessary – were the proposed alt title something like "Railway enthusiasts in Japan", it might be more agreeable. AVNOJ1989 (talk) 17:48, 8 July 2024 (UTC)