Talk:Departments of France

Survey and discussion
Please add * Support  or  * Oppose  followed by a brief explanation and then your signature ("&#126;&#126;&#126;&#126;").
 * Support as nom. David Kernow 18:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per other Département articles. joturn e r 18:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC) Oppose Plurality is not a reason for moving a page. However, I would support a move to Département of France as it sounds more correct. joturn e r 18:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. john k 20:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support--Aldux 22:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support - Kiwipete 09:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Consensus
As a result of the consensus reached above, the page was moved on 1 July 2006 by User:El C. Kiwipete 08:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

(How to edit?)
Wondering how to edit the "départements" entries? The WikiProject French departements standards might help.

Disambiguation
The following departements will need disambiguation:


 * Cher
 * Var
 * (and maybe others)

Any thoughts on how to do this? Eg:

3 See WikiProject French departements.
 * Cher (departement)
 * Cher (France)


 * Cher (département) and Var (département) appear to have been dismbiguated. AdamMorton 02:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Standard presentation for population, area, prefecture & ss.pref.: (ideas needed: rough idea on Hauts-de-Seine)

See also WikiProject French departements - User:Olivier

-- From the article: "Reorganisations of the Paris region and the division of Corsica have added a further seven". I make it 6: one in corsica, and 91 - 95 in Paris. -- Tarquin, Monday, June 24, 2002

Can we identify which departements belong in which regions? -- Zoe

There is 6 overseas départements (DOM) not 4 as suggest the article. 62.212.103.37 20:39 Sep 16, 2002 (UTC)

See edit to the article. 4 DOM, 3 TOM + other collectivites. - User:Olivier

Here is an interesting link (in French): 1999 census, including population of regions, departements and cities of more 100,000 inhabitants. Caution: "Aires urbaines de plus de 50,000 habitants" doesn't give the population of the cities, but the population of the "urban area", the city and its surroundings. http://www.dgcl.interieur.gouv.fr/publications/CL_en_chiffres/CL2001_ch01.pdf - User:Olivier

Does anyone have a useable source for maps of individual départements? RickK 04:05, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Aesthetics
Just my opinion, but I find that blue-and-pink "This article is part of the series..." box at top right of this article visually unappealing and off-putting. Don't such messages, in any case, belong at the bottom of the article, and can't this particular one be much better designed? -- Picapica 21:26, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Another referenece
Here is an explination of French local governement I wrote a few years ago:

http://www.business-in-europe.com/gb/regions/regions_explained.htm

Former Departments
Can the former Corsican departments be separated/unlinked from the current ones? - signed by anon IP


 * Nope, Corsica was once a singular department until 1974 I believe, split into two halves and the numeral designation "20" was abandoned. There is no numeral designation "96" but the proposal to make the island of Mayotte an overseas department in 2011 might inherit the number. Saintes Pierre et Moquelon are territorial collectivities, a higher stage above an department, and other territorial collectivities are Wallis et Futuna, New Caledonia and French Polynesia. The French republic wants to grant the overseas territories of the South Pacific a much higher degree of autonomy, alike a British Commonwealth nation or similar to how the Danish crown just granted "country status" to Greenland and the Faeroe Islands. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 09:39, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposing move
Hello all- I made a proposal regarding this article that may be of interest to you: Requested_moves. -Eric (talk) 18:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It was requested that this article be renamed but the procedure outlined at WP:RM did not appear to be followed, and consensus could not be determined. Please request a move again with proper procedure if there is still a desire for the page to be moved. Thank you for your time! --  tariq abjotu  09:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Take 2 is below, this time after reading all the instructions. -Eric (talk) 14:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
Move to Departments of France. Duja 07:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Départements of France → Department (France) — The English word "department" includes as one of its meanings the French word "département." The en Wikipedia should not be attempting to have a French language entry for a common French term that has long-established equivalent in the English language. In keeping with what I think is standard Wikipedia procedure for disambiguating terms, the format for this kind of article title should be: . If this proposal is accepted, the en article Département should redirect to the proposed new page, and a link to the new page should be placed on the disambiguation page Department. -Eric (talk) 14:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey
Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.
 * Support = policy. Agathoclea 14:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. no reason to use the French form when the English form is generally what is used in, er, English. I would prefer Departments of France, however, as I think this article is as much about the departments as a group as it is about the individual function of a department. john k 16:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support, and I agree with John &mdash; Departments of France, like Counties of England, Cantons of Switzerland, etc. Proteus (Talk) 16:23, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support, but would prefer Departments of France. And if this is successful, perhaps we could take a look at Régions of France? Bolivian Unicyclist 18:03, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Equivocal. Essentially, the previous three supporters simply suggest redirecting Départements of France to Departments of France, rather than vice versa as at present.  Is it worth making a lot of work just for that?  The article Department has a link to Département which then has links to various countries' departments, and I think that generally works well. Kiwipete 00:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
Add any additional comments:
 * If the page is moved, are you going to go through all the articles on all the départements and all cities and towns and arondissements -- basically every geographical article of France -- and change every instance of département to "department"? For instance:
 * "Located in the Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur région, Nice is a commune and the préfecture (administrative capital) of the Alpes-Maritimes département. (-from article Nice)"
 * This is similar to the dozen or so articles I just spot-checked. How far will you take anglicization? --SigPig 06:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There are also many instances of the English word in en Wikipedia articles about France. If we follow my suggestion in the reason for move, any links pointing to the page Département would automatically re-direct to the new page "Department (France)"/"Departments of France." In any case, as I said above, the word exists in English and means what it means in French, so it should be used in English-language articles. That sentence in the Nice article should read: "...Nice is a commune and the prefecture (administrative capital) of the department  Alpes-Maritimes." Note that prefectureis also an English word. -Eric (talk) 14:53, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Orientation
I like the way this article provides references to US and English counties to provide orientation.--Dmz5 17:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Single use flag templates
According to User:Andrwsc/Obsolete country data templates, the following flag templates are currently used only in Departments of France:



We are in the process of a bit of a consolidation of the flag templates and I would like to ask, if the article writers on this article here would agree if I would replace the calls of the above listed templates on this article here with their direct expansion. This would mean I would replace for example

with


 * [[Image:Lueneburg.jpg|22x20px|Flag of Brunswick-Lüneburg]] Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg.

User:Andrwsc expressed the concern that it is a bit overkill to have flag templates for these uncommon "countrys" to use them on a single article. If there no objections, I would do this and then delete the flag templates listed above. Thanks. --Ligulem 12:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've expanded the flag template calls in the table under "Napoleonic Empire" . If there aren't any complaints, I will delete the now unused country data templates listed above. --Ligulem 18:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Bourbon restoration
Was the departmental system retained by Louis XVIII and Charles X, or did they try to bring back the old provinces? 68.40.65.164 22:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

It did remain. No change back to the old provinces. 90.52.191.129 (talk) 21:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Vehicle plates
Found something that needs to be updated:

The départements are numbered: their two-digit numbers appear in postal codes, in INSEE codes (including "social security numbers") and on vehicle number-plates, though this last usage will mostly disappear with a new car plate scheme due for 2006.

Well? Was the "scheme" (is that the right word to be using?) implemented? Funnyhat 05:18, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Map
At first glance of the map I thought the numbers in the table below corresponded to the map, however this is not the case and it may be worthwhile including the numbers in the table in a seperate column. unfortunatly I have no idea which department matches which number so this may require someone which knows more about french geography/local goverment. Waacstats (talk) 10:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi- If you are referring to the departments map and list on the article page, it looks to me like they are all correct (i.e. the numbers on the department polygons in the map correspond to the ones in the table, and have the correct names next to them). -Eric talk 17:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:ReunionFlag.gif
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Explanation of table
In the table, what do the flags next to the prefecture represent? 216.36.132.66 (talk) 13:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting question ;D it's the flag of the région. Imho, it has nothing to do here, one can think that it is the flag of the préfecture and wonders why there are so numerous identical flags. It would be better to have a column région, with the flag and the name of the region... it would allow to sort on région column, to show all the départements in each région. But the table would be too big, imho. At the present, I think it would be better to remove these flags before the préfectures. Alvar ☮ ☎ 14:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've put a new column for the region, I think that solves the problem. Random user 8384993 (talk) 12:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Alvar ☮ ☎ 14:49, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Translation Tag
The section "The Future" is a translation of part of the French article. (RJPe (talk) 19:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC)) Also, this same section includes the a pair of sentences relating to automobile tags (Since April 2009, a departmental number is still included but it is now one chosen by the vehicle owner and not necessarily the place of residence. Also, the number of the department is automatically accompanied on the number plate by the logo of the region in which the department lies.) that are totally unconnected to the rest of the section. If this material should remain, it needs to be better integrated. --Khajidha (talk) 19:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

reasons for creating system
the article states that one of the ideas for creating the department structure was "directly inspired by the Great Terror, during which the government had lost control of many rural areas which were far from any centre of government". Yet the Terror took place three years after the creation of departments. Can anyone clarify this? The Thieving Gypsy (talk) 23:06, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Coat of arms/ Blasons
Why put blasons that have no official values ( and some where invented during the XXe century )and not put official logos for departments?

Those coat of arms have no meaning for french people, and most have never seen them.

Nicolas 12:47, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Comment in Main Text
It appears that a comment (Please expand this table ...) by someone has slipped into the text of note 1 of table 7. If I am correct, it should be deleted; I'm not going to do it myself because I'm unfamiliar with the long history of this article. (The comment has been present for at least the last 18 months.) SDCHS (talk) 09:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

English meaning
Department doesn't mean a French département, even though the words are similar. It needs to be left in the French. This is similar to the inappropriate use in English of commune and deputy which don't mean the same as their close French counterpart-words. Those words need also to be left in French because they lack English equivalents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 (talk) 18:55, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The English equivalent would be County and the plural Counties. So yes I agree that Department is incorrect and recommend a move. Regards, Sun Creator (talk) 10:43, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Utter nonsense. "département" has been translated into English as "department" for over two hundred years now.  It has never been translated as "county." "Deputy" and "Commune" are likewise used in English. john k (talk) 12:24, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Here's some definitions, from the World English Dictionary on dictionary.reference.com:
 * Department: territorial and administrative division in several countries, such as France
 * Commune: the smallest administrative division in France, Italy, Switzerland, etc., governed by a mayor assisted by a municipal council.
 * Deputy: a member of the legislative assembly or of the lower chamber of the legislature in various countries, such as France

Please give this nonsense up. These are long-used and well-understood English translations of the French terms. john k (talk) 12:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Levels of Government
It says the department:

is one of the three levels of government below the national level, between the region and the commune.

But what about the arrondissements and the cantons, which come below the department but above the commune? 98.221.131.228 (talk) 09:23, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Wrong map
This is another issue which should be added to the box. There are no hyphens in the names on the map. --2.245.138.153 (talk) 00:31, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to a map in the article? If so, which one? There are many. Hyphens where? In place names? Eric talk 12:44, 18 September 2015 (UTC)


 * In this map, the hyphens are indeed absent. The official spelling includes hyphens (e.g. Saône-et-Loire, and as a matter of fact, the respective wiki articles are hyphened). As a matter of legibility, I'd guess it is better to omit them in this map.


 * The same map has another issue : Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon is shown as a departement, which it ceased to be in 1985, as noted elswhere in the article. Herix (talk) 01:42, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Weser department
I do not have the talent for wiki-table-manipulation needed to add it, so instead I come to the talk page.

As far as I can make out, the short-lived (1807-1810) needs adding to the list of former departments.

If someone does that, I might even translate the German wiki entry to create an equivalent for english wikipedia. Though if someone else were to get in first I should not weep. Either way, although there is a, at the time of writing it really only amounts to a sub-stub. (Which might be another challenge for someone reading this?)

Of course, maybe it's already in the nice table ... somewhere, and I'm just not very observant - don't think so, though! Regards Charles01 (talk) 12:18, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


 * It looks to me like it was a department of the Napoleonic Kingdom of Westphalia. PatGallacher (talk) 14:02, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Ah, yes.  I see what you mean.   Cancel that request.   (But do we have an entry, yet, on Departments of the Kingdom of Westphalia)?   Regards Charles01 (talk) 14:42, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Those flags are fake
Hi,

All the flags below are fake flags only created and added on Wikimedia Commons by SiBr4 by combinations of old flags. Those regions don't even have their defenitives names. You really should have a look on Nouvelle-Aquitaine. Please remove those fake flags.

Thank you. --Mattho69 (talk) 23:15, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * These are just Flag-like icons for projects per regions. They are made of the traditional flags used for the former regions (except Normandie, that just uses the same flag as the historical one without distinguishing the number of lions).
 * I don't see any problem with these images, they reflect a cultural usage and anyway no region or department or city have any flag, they may only have logos for their local councils. All other flags are non-official, and cultural only (only the French tricolore flag is official, along with its variants for civil enseign, navy and military branchs, with ceremonial usages in some commemoration events). Some local councils proudly display a logo, and several other symbols including traditional flags (for cultural purpose only, frequently on trafic signs and street plates, but still not for the new regions.
 * This is not a severe problem. These "flags" at leat do not suffer from copyright issues that exist with council logos (which may be displayed only on a few selected pages directly relevant to the administrative division, but not for general navigation such as project banners, navigation panels...
 * Clearly this usage of Flags is a NON-ISSUE at all ! Many people recognize these flags naturally, it is part of their long cultural background and they are seen in many places (even if here these flags are composite we clearly identify each part).verdy_p (talk) 18:47, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

"Great Terror" or "Great Fear"?
In the article says:


 * The modern departments, as all-purpose units of the government, were created on 4 March 1790 by the National Constituent Assembly to replace the provinces with what the Assembly deemed a more rational structure. Their boundaries served two purposes:
 * Boundaries were chosen to break up France's historical regions in an attempt to erase cultural differences and build a more homogeneous nation.
 * Boundaries were set so that every settlement in the country was within a day's ride of the capital of the department. This was a security measure, intended to keep the entire national territory under close control. This measure was directly inspired by the Great Terror, during which the government had lost control of many rural areas far from any centre of government.

A division established in 1790 can't have been "directly inspired" by the Great Terror (who was in 1792-94; and, AFAIK, in the Terror the central government did not lost the control of many rural areas (besides Vendeé and some neighbor regions); perhaps there is a confusion with the Great Fear, in 1789, and when was peasant revolts in many regions of the country?--MiguelMadeira (talk) 14:40, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Métropole de Lyon
I don't believe that it was a good idea to describe the Métropole de Lyon as France's "1st metropolitan department" (as was done in the previous revision of the present article) because that term, "metropolitan department", has an already established and different meaning: namely, a department (any department) in Metropolitan France – as distinct from one in the Republic as a whole (which includes the overseas departments).

And, while we're on the subject, "Metropolitan Lyon" is a questionable translation (if we must have one) for what in French is known as la métropole de Lyon (Lyon Metropolis) or le Grand Lyon (Greater Lyon). But perhaps that's a subject better discussed at the article on Greater Lyon itself. -- Picapica (talk) 08:33, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out, . I changed it to match the article. Eric talk 12:49, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. Community Tech bot (talk) 01:39, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Blason département fr Hérault.svg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:01, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Flag of Réunion (Local).png

Polynesia
This list is also used for the licence plates article. But, according to www.licenceplates.com, French Polynesia User plates with the number 987. Shouldn‘t we add that to the list, so? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8070:51A9:7100:A00F:F3D5:2586:429E (talk) 08:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:38, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Blason du département de Corse-du-Sud.jpg

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Counting Lyon as a department
Metropolis of Lyon says that it's both a department and a metropolis, and it has a department number, so shouldn't it just be counted as the 102nd department? -- Beland (talk) 09:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)


 * (The count would need to be updated here and on List of administrative divisions by country.) -- Beland (talk) 20:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)