Talk:Depersonalization/Archive 1

rare?
From the article:


 * The disorder has in the past been thought to be rare. However, within the last decade research has shown that as many as 2.5% of the population suffers from this dissociative disorder.  Also, as many as 50% of college students have reported feelings related to this disorder.  The majority of the population will experience this sometime in their lifetime but it only develops as a disorder in a select few.  No one specific book has yet been dedicated to the topic of Depersonalization.  However as of recently more knowledge and awareness of this family of disorders is coming to light.  For example Marlene Steinberg and Maxine Schnall's The Stranger in the Mirror covers in depth research on; advice on how to work with; and people who have suffered from dissociative disorders.

Cites, please?


 * You didn't even sign your post here and you're asking for cites? Depersonalization is a well known phenomenon.  Do a Google search for specific information you need.  What kind of "cites" do you require?  The information you cut and pasted above lists the name of a book and author.  You're being unclear on what you need, why you need it, and even what your user name is.  Moncrief 17:22, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)

'Killology' is hard to accept in the form of a "known science" per se or whatever, when it's a word that come from just one friggin' book.

As a result, I altered this article to, rather than saying 'Killology suggests' which seems like som vast branch of science suggests it (and which I feel violated NPOV), to refer to the book itself.

If 'killology' is a viable and acceptable field of study despite it's hokey name, it's up to that article to verify it -- and not to gain some sort of en passe support by being mentioned in a way that gives the impression that it's a known and accepted thing. Dodger 05:52, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

derealization
"In psychiatry, depersonalization (or derealization) is the experience of feelings of loss of a sense of reality."

DP and DR aren't equivalent terms, even though they often occur together, so the "or derealization" isn't acceptable IMO. My take is that DP is behaving appropriately but feeling like you're an observer or like there's no "self" which is generating that behaviour, while DR is perceiving the world correctly but feeling like there's something wrong with it. In both cases the sufferer is rational but disturbed and disconnected. I also think "experience of feelings of" is redundant because you always experience feelings when you have them. I think it should read something like:

"In psychiatry, depersonalization is a feeling of absense of (or disconnection from) self".

I think this definition from www.schizophrenicpen.com is quite nicely worded:

"An alteration in the perception or experience of one's self, so that the self is felt to be unreal, detached from reality or one's own body or mental processes." - snaxalotl


 * Yes, they are two different things. Can't emphasize this enough.


 * Depersonalization, defined in the DSM-IV as "persistent or recurrent experiences of feeling detached from, and as if one is an outside observer of, onces mental processes or body (e.g., feeling like one is in a dream)."
 * Derealization, defined by Merriam-Webster as " feeling of altered reality [....] in which one's surroundings appear unreal or unfamiliar."


 * While the two terms are often lumped together in discussion of various forms of dissociation, it's important to make clear that they are two different things. -- MakersDozn (gathering-place.org)

As a previous sufferer of DP and current psych. student I would HIGHLY suggest making Derealization and Depersonalization TWO SEPERATE items. They are NOT the same. Derealization has a tendency to be co-morbid with Depersonalization; but, it's also co-morbid with non-DP anxiety, co-morbid with PTSD, co-morbid with stress, etc. The point is Derealization is a stand alone variable that is co-morbid with other disorders, while Depersonalization can be either a stand-alone symptom or a disorder. Seriously...take it from a guy who's been there.... -FX

11/15/06 Ok, to everyone who says things like : "Man you guys are idiots. Marijuana does not cause depersonalization." Eff you, ok? look, I have been "Dp'ing" for years. yes. years. and yes, i occasionally smoke pot. but it all began way before that. so personally, I know that MY Depersonalization issues do not stem from that but I do know that pot makes me feel very much the same as my disorder. but you know what? all i know for sure is MY experience, no one elses. stop effing acting like you have the right to speak for every other person in the world. because you don't. now, i happen to believe (and i can see i'm supported in this by some other people's comments) that alot of people (with or without the disorder) feel depersonalized or disconnected from reality when high on marijuana. maybe not everyone, but it's pretty common in people I know personally. in fact, when trying to describe my disorder to others, i frequently say "it's kinda like when you're really high and you feel unreal" to which i usually get an "OOOOOOHHH....ok.. yeah." now, whether smoking pot or doing any kind of drugs can actually give someone Depersonalization Disorder (meaning they feel that way when NOT high, frequently) I don't know. Because I'm not them. but neither are you, most likely, so please don't think so highly of yourself that you start running off at the mouth like you know anyone else's life experience other than your own. and chances are, if you have DD, you don't even fully understand or accept your own feelings and experiences so that should really tell you something. like maybe: SHUT UP. - Sway

ps: If you want people to put any kind of value on what you say, you might want to sign your posts. It's just polite and it shows you fully believe in and support your own theories and thoughts. look into it.


 * ok everybody, please, use an additional ":" to the number of ":" used in the comment to which you respond and sign your post with --~ . this way, i cant make anything much out of what is said here and by how many people etc. also this last bit is more ranting then stating an opinion which isnt endorsed in teh talkpages. moving on, i dont think anybody claimed that smoking pot can cause any dissociative disorder (which it cannot), but it is extensively counterargued for some unpercievable reason. what is stated in the article, is that smoking pot can create dissociative symptoms, which is correct. also if you do suffer depersonalisation i would strongly disadvise smoking pot for that very reason, but do what ever you like to yourself. also i very much agree with what is originally said in this section, that depers and dere are two seperate things that often but not necessarily coincide. i do not agree with the discriptions of them that same person gave though. depersonalisation is somewhat of a broad concept of percieving the world as if you are not part of it, or percieving yourself as not part of the world, or percieving yourself as unreal or not yourself (not recognising yourself), and derealisation is much more simply feeling like the world you exist in (and/or the persons in it) is unreal. and i think you can also feel disconnected from reality in some way, as if there is some kind of nonmaterial barrier, which i think may be in the overlap-zone between depers and dere, possibly being a part of both, but i do think its officially considered a part of derealisation. at any rate, they may be used interchangably by some, but they would in fact be incorrect in doing so, especially since quite some milder cases have only one or the other, and they even have two different labels (disorders) to give to these individuals if they have it reoccurantly. and in no case should the article read that thay are in whatever way interchangably usable. a dissociation veteran 00:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Caused by Marijuana?
Can somebody provide a source for that? I'd hate to think we're just reciting urban legend here. - Nargmage

Definitely not urban legend (as is known from personal experience) - but I'm finding it very hard to find references. - Shane T

Here are some articles about it (case studies), could they be used as sources in any way? I'm not sure how best to add it - Citations mostly just confused me. --Tifego 05:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * marijuana ingestion is one of the most common precipitants of the disorder in a study of 117 cases of depersonalization disorder
 * case study of four cases of prolonged depersonalization that occurred months after marijuana use

disagree these should be used as sources as things stand. an encyclopedia is not the place for speculation by non-experts. "engendered by use of marijuana" is basically a claim of "caused by", which is very different from "precipitated by" as it is used in the context of the first article. I would very much support changing "engendered" to "precipitated" and citing the article. The second article is a 25 year old study of four cases. This is the sort of fossicking normally seen by creationist authors, who never tire of quoting some scientist whose 1937 opinion supports their claim. This is probably a better reference, but you'll need to read more than the abstract because it covers drug abuse in general: http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/addi/abstract.00008514-200312000-00016.htm I have access to Addiction online, but they don't seem to have any 2003 articles up - snaxalotl

Man you guys are idiots. Marijuana does not cause depersonalization. According to the diagnositc manual, used by thousands of doctors natinowide, depersonalization disorder cannot be caused by a substance. Extending marijuana to that is a joke. Now, marijuana can cause panic attacks, and can raise one's anxiety. This can be very stressful, and often times, the user will dwell on the after-effects of marijuana. Depersonalization is a disaccociative disorder, and cannot be present with any other disorders. Depersonalization is a common symptom of OCD, Anxiety and PTSD. I personally had to find out the hard way. I was anxious and dp'd for a good 4 months. After constant research, I decided that I WAS RIGHT. I smoked again, and had the new, correct perception that marijuana didn't change me at all. It was all psychosomatic. Have you seen the so-called cures for DPD? Vitamin Bs, anxiety medications, and all other ANXIETY relievers. Man, www.panic-anxiety.com, that guy is making millions off of you misguided fools. Sorry, but this is coming from a recovered sufferer of depersonalization, you are all wrong.


 * If the article is saying that marijuana causes depersonalization disorder, a long term and unpleasant psychiatric disorder, then I agree with you. Depersonalization (the symptom) can last minutes, hours, or days, and I believe it can be temporarily caused by using marijuana.  While marijuana is a very safe psychoactive drug, by it's very nature it changes one's perception of the world, and of oneself.  Anxiety is another symptom, which has been known to cause derpersonalization (as well as being associated with it in other contexts).  I don't find it difficult to believe that marijuana use can cause temporary DP, though I would think that any drug-related sensations (including DP) would go away when the drug wore off.


 * So, it seems reasonable that MJ can cause temporary DP, but not long term DP disorder. I also agree that 'engendered' is far less appropriate than 'precipitated.'


 * It's always difficult when dealing with correlations in studies. If studies find a correlation between drug use and depersonalization disorder, then the question to be asked is this:  Did the marijuana use cause depersonalization, or did a potential anxiety disorder lead that person to self-medicate with marijuana?   --ZZYZX 09:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

This is to the person who says marijuana can't cause depersonilization. Buddy, you are totally wrong. I've smoked approx. 20 times and every single time i've gotten high I feel like I do when I have an intense depersonilization attack. It feels like I'm in a dream world, somewhere between reality and death. The higher you get, the worse you depersonilize. One time, me and a friend smoked two bowl packs out of bong. I reach the peak of my high, the intense depersonilzation part, which usually subsides in about 5-10 seconds. However, this time it it didn't. I felt like there were two seperate worlds created, the real one, and the one in which i was stoned. I freaked out, and had feelings that I would never be the same again. Two months later though, I got the courage to smoke again, and again got the same feelings. This time I got much less high, but the depersonalization was still there. My solution though is to ask myself what I was afraid of, and I learned to cope with the depersonilization, even though the expirience still made me feel uncomfortable. That's why I stopped smoking weed, and my advice to anyone out there who thinks they might have depersonilization disorder is not to smoke, as your first time smoking will be a nightmare, as mine was.

The guy above me is right, I used to smoke alot of pot and it was always fun, but due to depersonalization due to psychological trauma from ether binging and acid smoking has never been the same, I get panicky and experience exactly what he did. I am now on Risperdal(Risperidone) from Janssen. Don't do drugs

As far as I can recall I was the person who wrote "engendered by marijuana." I think precipitation is a far more fitting word for use in that sentence. As far as marijuana causing DP in some people, but not others, this is clear and obvious. What, I think, marijuana can do is, again, precipitate the feelings of DP in certain people who are already susceptible. Meaning if that if their brain is already layed out in a certain manner, marijuana can, and will, create at least a minor level of DP. What the word "engender" would enatil is that the marijuana CREATED the DP, when all the marijuana did was actually bring it about, and engendering is not the case because there would far more sufferers. If one wants a citation, all one needs to do is go to a DP related forum, search for "marijuana" (or any other variant), and see the extensive list of results. Even though these are people's personal experiences, and are, in fact, subjective, I can't imagine social scientists, psychiatrists or any other professional getting their information differently. -R

Dope does not cause, but can be a catalyst to DP/DR

I suffer (or experience as some preffer to put it, even though i suffer everyday) from DP/DR, and I agree that it is caused by anxiety, and not the substance itself. My seperate experiences of DP and their triggers:

Dope + Panic = DP/DR

Stimulant(Ecstasy/speed) + Panic = DR/DP

Weeks after drugs + Worry about substance use = DR/DP

Stimulant(cafeine+alcohol) + worry about never getting sex again = DP/DR

Antidepressant(Cipramil) + Panic = DP/DR

I can see that my experiences contained an element of panic or anxiety (especially of being alone) EVERY TIME. I have managed to feel in control and comfortable using dope, pills, and coffee before with no DR/DP.

I believe also that Dope can bring out DP/DR but only because of underlying anxiety, and unease. So many people can smoke it and not feel the same way I do, because they are more relaxed and not prone to panic attacks. I have not smoked in over a year, have had blood tests and various scans which show no traces left in me. But I am still full of worried thoughts and that is why I feel Depersonalised

http://www.depersonalizationdisorder.net/

-Frederic Floyd-

Marijuana (APPEARS) to have an effect ON DP. For some it seems to be the triggering event. I used to have DP a long time ago, and came across a MASSIVE NUMBER of people who found that Marijuana WAS the triggering event. It would be nice to keep this in here. I hope to study the effects on marijuana on DP for my master thesis. Hopefully this article gets worked out. People NEED to know about this disorder. It robbed me of 5 years of my life. I'll be damned if it robs others too. -FX

Well first I want to say thanks for writing this. It's never been a serious problem for me but I get DP every now and again and was worried it was going to develop into insanity or something, but now I know better. It's probably easier said than done, but I feel now I can overcome it, as the main thing which got to me about it was the fact that I thought I was turning mad. Anyway, I can't really remember when I first had it, it was no longer than a year ago, and yes I do smoke marijuana occasionally, and have been only for the last year aswell (coincidence?). I remember during the 2nd or 3rd time smoking I had a major feeling of anxiety and it almost put me off the drug for good, but then after a few times I didn't get it anymore (well I still get it a bit sometimes when I'm stoned, but it never lasts more than a few minutes). I don't suffer from anxiety at all when not under the influence, the occasional DP seems to be the only possible thing which it has left me with. I'm open to other suggestions, but just from personal experience I feel marijuana must have had at least had some input, at least triggered it. -Nick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.193.56.160 (talk) 00:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC) I used a lot of different drugs in my lifetime. Never as a habitual user. I occasionally experienced something akin to derealization when smoking pot but never the real thing until I had a severe auto accident. My brain was traumatically injured and I have experienced occular problems and derealization since. Is there perhaps a possible nerological problem that causes the two? (####) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lowinmo (talk • contribs) 03:35, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm an occasional cannabis smoker myself and I can confirm that I experience very noticeable depersonalization when I'm high. Just letting you know. Dmarquard (talk) 02:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Included and cited. This issue is now resolved. Dmarquard (talk) 23:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

wow! to the author of the article
thanks for writing this! I linked here from Panic attack and I've often had feelings like this since I was a kid (especially the mirror part). I'm happy to finally realize what it actually is, thanks a lot :) Also, I dunno if it is related to marijuana (to the guy above me) but I have never smoked pot, and anyway have experienced this since I was a child, so I dont think they HAVE to be combined although maybe pot intensifies or greatens the liklihood? (I'm just throwing stuff out there, dont quote me) --insertwackynamehere 02:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks and a little edit...
Firstly thanks so much for the person who started the article, and the people who continue to edit it. This has been extremely helpful to me and my symptoms, and all you people mean the world to me! Also, I've added a paragraph which could be helpful to people who have never experienced depersonalisation before, as I feel it is these people who need a bit more of an explanation in order to relate better to loved ones who might be suffering from depersonalisation. It's the same explanation I gave my girlfriend, and she said it was a really good way of putting it and very helpful to her. So I thought it would be helpful to other non-sufferers :) although I feel it might need a bit of editing, I'll have another look at it later. --Ronius 13:04, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add to your idea. I (again) used to suffer from DP. It would be VERY helpful to give first hand-account from a SPECIFIC SOURCE as to what DP feels like from a suffer/exsuffer. But it needs to be done in such a way that NPOV is NOT compromised. The feeling of DP ought to be relayed FACTUALLY so that the inquisitive fact-finder of the Wiki-World can fully grasp the FACTS of DP rather than be confused by personal opinion. Remember, quoted personal opinion is a PART of fact. -FX

Possible Sideeffects of Depersonalization?
I suffer from Depersonalization, as a disorder. In the recent 3 years, it has gotten more intence, and has started to enduce vomiting, and disiculty to breath. At first I thought it was asthsma, but as it started to happen more commenly,and only during the sensation .. I am starting to believe that is it a cause of Depersonalization. -Erica

Erica, what' you're desribing is propably the psychosomatic effects from the anxiety itself. I used to have DPD and am currently a Psychology student. Please, seek help from a therapist that actually knows what DP is. There is a lot of help out there for this thing, it's just kinda scattered at the moment. You'll make it, trust me; I made it. -FX

Proposed Merge
(Never done this before, but) I feel pretty strongly that Depersonalization disorder covers the exact same material as this article, and should be merged into this one. So, Diagnostic Criteria would be moved into the part that links to it, whichever general introduction to the concept of depersonalization is better should be kept, and the examples can probably coexist. --Tifego 04:25, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Some headings should probably be added too; both the articles look a little disorganized already so it'd only get worse when combining them without some extra section delineation. --Tifego 04:29, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Totally disagree that the pages should merge. By far the most important and complex topic is depersonalization, with endless perspectives and connections to different theories of neuroscience and psychology. Depersonalization disorder, however, is NOT the condition of suffering depersonalization. It is one of several DSM categories (e.g. delusional disorder v. schizophrenia) where essentially you only have that symptom, otherwise you have a different (not additional) diagnosis. The bulk of information should be under depersonalization, but DD definitely earns its own entry because it is a distinct DSM category. I just think the entry should be rather small, with a definition of the criteria and a brief description, a description of any ways in which having DD is a different experience to DR within other contexts, and description of any treatments (especially those which are specific to DD, as opposed to generic treatments which apply to DR within other contexts). -- nonuser snaxalotl


 * Merge. WP:BOLD and do it urself, if you want. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 05:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree that the pages should be merged, for the following reason:

Depersonalization is a symptom that most people experience at some point in their lives, and is short-lived. It is also a symptom of psychiatric conditions such as anxiety. By itself, it is not considered a problem by psychiatrists. Ordinary people, who may experience it when under extreme stress, often describe it as a positive and stress-relieving sensation.

Depersonalization disorder (DPD) is a disorder/disease, and is a collection of symptoms. The primary symptom is depersonalization, but differs sharply in that it doesn't go away (as with 'normal' people). The sensation of depersonalization is always perceived very negatively by those who are afflicted with DPD, so much so that it is common for them to believe that they are 'going crazy.' Depersonalization is also listed in the DSM-IV as both a symptom and (separately) as a disease.

To merge these two articles would be akin to merging 'headache' with 'stroke' - one is a symptom (possibly of a disease), the other is the disease or disorder. The DPD page does, and should, contain current and experimental treatments for the disease, the prognosis, etiology, how many people are effected, etc. There is quite a bit of information that an article about a disease should include. Since DP the symptom is much more common than DPD the disease, perhaps that should contain more information, but these subjects should definitely stay separate. --ZZYZX 09:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

So, have we come to a consensus about whether or not the articles should be merged? It looks to me like there were more noes than yeas. So, can we remove the "merge" tags from both of the articles? If I don't hear from anyone I'm gonna take that as a "Yeah, go right ahead!" and just remove them - unless someone beats me to it... --ZZYZX 09:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

To add very little, I feel that ZZYZX is correct in that the two are distinct and should not be merged. -R

I agree that they should NOT (I REPEAT NOT) be merged. I think a STRONG line needs to be drawn between DP as a sympotom and DPD as a disorder. THEY ARE HEAVILY related, but they need to be kept seperate (JUST LIKE Derealization). Depersonalization: An experience that is Co-morbid with things Derealization   : An experience that is Co-morbid with things DP Disorder     : A stand-alone disorder with DP as the main symptom These are three seperate items and they really need to be written more clearly. Also While I'm at it Depersonalization Disorder REALLY REALLY needs to be renamed to Dissociative Depersonalization Disorder (IT'S TRUE NAME). *Sigh* where will it ever end??? -FX

suffering?
personally, i don't think that the subjects mentioned should be considered "sufferers". if we're discussing depersonalization disorder, i could understand that, but there are some people who seek to become depersonalized. specifically through the use of recreational drugs, religious or non-religious meditation and also hypnosis. it would probably be better to refer to them as the "person experiencing" or some such thing.

Amen to that. -Squishta

--Cwiddofer 22:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

(sorry - forgot to sign earlier)

This article shouldn't be merged with Derealization. Although they tend to coexist, it is perfectly possible to have the one without the other, and when one do, they are percieved as two very different sensations

I agree that people who are experiencing Depersonalization should not be called "suffers" since some DO seek it on purpose. HOWEVER, I feel that a sub-section within the Depersonalization section needs to point out that DEPERSONALIZAIONT is a shorthand and COMMON name used for Dissociative Depersonalization Disorder (DPD). I'm often guilty of it myself. -FX

I feel DP/DR everyday, and I hate it. I dont take any drugs, have even cut out coffee, and I do everything I can to try and feel comfortable, but Yet I still suffer.

To those who say I dont suffer can all go and get F#@^&d because you dont know what its like to try everyday to get better, and not achieve anything despite numerous efforts.

- Frederic Floyd


 * yeah, anyone i know that has experienced this would more then certainly call it suffering. People that seek out "depersonalization" seek out something entirely different but just by the same name. If not, they still suffer greater insanity than any depersonalisation· Lygophile   has   spoken  00:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that "sufferers" is appropriate in all cases, though I see the point. Maybe the distinction needs to be made more clearly between those of us who either experience DP from natural causes or as an unwanted side-effect of other treatments, and those who experience it on purpose. After experiencing it as a side-effect of two SSRIs (Lexapro and Celexa), I think people in the second group are plagued by other mental disorders - I don't know who in their right mind would seek out the feeling that you are just watching the world from inside your body but are detached, especially emotionally, from it, like your life is an IMAX movie. My personal issues with that group aside, I think that the unwitting "experience" of it is suffering, and it would be wrong to change it to "experience" for all people, because it may give others who read this site the sense that it is just an experience, and not see how scary it really is. While I love the description that exists now (from my bouts of it at least, it's accurate), it also makes it sound "cool," perhaps, to people who seek out these things.  Also, it could be argued that even people who seek it out don't realize how awful it is until they experience it? Kelelain 00:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Huh?! Not suffering? Yes its a vaild point that many people in the world seek this feeling, but when it happens everyday without the person wanting or looking for it, it is indeed suffering. I've SUFFERED for years with this, and I have sought the feeling in the past, from drugs to meditation. Some may not concider it suffering, but each individual has their own perception of what they experience. end, Tito^^ 14:42, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Sunset Boulevard?
Why is this included? Should there be some indication? Like for example: "Fictional Depictions of Derealization" Euthydemos 19:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This is to the person who says marijuana can't cause depersonilization. Buddy, you are totally wrong. I've smoked approx. 20 times and every single time i've gotten high I feel like I do when I have an intense depersonilization attack. It feels like I'm in a dream world, somewhere between reality and death. The higher you get, the worse you depersonilize. One time, me and a friend smoked two bowl packs out of bong. I reach the peak of my high, the intense depersonilzation part, which usually subsides in about 5-10 seconds. However, this time it it didn't. I felt like there were two seperate worlds created, the real one, and the one in which i was stoned. I freaked out, and had feelings that I would never be the same again. Two months later though, I got the courage to smoke again, and again got the same feelings. This time I got much less high, but the depersonalization was still there. My solution though is to ask myself what I was afraid of, and I learned to cope with the depersonilization, even though the expirience still made me feel uncomfortable. That's why I stopped smoking weed, and my advice to anyone out there who thinks they might have depersonilization disorder is not to smoke, as your first time smoking will be a nightmare, as mine was.

(AMEN!!!!) -FX

Depersonalization / deprogramming
Depersonalization is another term for deprogramming, so we need a disambiguation page. --HResearcher 06:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Although my interest here is of the Post Cult/Traumatic Stress Disorder, I would disagree. Please see the links provided. It would appear that various people can suffer/experience this disorder. I am also not in agreement in merging the article as this classification has some precise criteria. I think once the article is in a more orderly state it will be of more value and expanded. REGATDSTalkAbout 20:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The items are and should remain seperate, however a mention on both linking to each other might be helpful. -FX

My experience depersonalisation
I experienced what I called non-reality, beginning at the age of 13. My first experience was in Oct 1986, and lasted for 15 to 20 minutes. I felt at thought I was in a dream, that nothing around me was real. The world seemed to turn hazy and colours were lost, almost black and white. I did not find the experience disturbing. In fact I enjoyed it. It gave me a sense of invenerability. I had episodes of depersonalisation a few times a week lasting ~15 to 20 min for years, but I don’t really remember them much as they were not concerning to me. My last experienced was in 1994 when I was very tired.

What I remember, that is relevant to the article, is that 6 months after my first experience of depersonalisation I began to experience increasing anxiety levels, leading eventually in March 1989 severe panic attacks that lasted for ~10 years. But I concede that my experiences maybe mild in comparison to others. Following from this, I have two points to make:

The study of the phenomena, as I read it (not just on wiki), seems biased by old-fashioned ideas e.g. fear causes a need for escape leading to depersonalisation. However, I believe that my experiences were due to a physical neurobiological disturbance - mild temporal lobe epilepsy or traces of cleaning solvents, are two examples I contemplated over the years.

In my case, depersonalisation proceeded panic attacks. The current idea that non-reality is an escape from fear seems wrong to me. Depersonalisation may signify damage to areas of the brain that evoke a senesce of external and internal reality – at times leading to decreased reality while at other times, increasing reality. If so, panic attacks maybe caused by the opposite of depersonalisation – enhanced reality overwhelming reality Diamond Dave 21/09/2006 14:23 UTC

DP/DR is not caused by brain damage. I have negative brain scans confirming this, because I was worried about such a possibility.

- Frederic Floyd


 * I should add that I was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome in 2002. Also, I didn’t feel unreal during these episodes, only the external world lost its reality; I was in a waking dream. I feel that a neurological explanation better fits my experience given the visual disturbances. -Diamonddavej 05:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * yeah, that makes a difference. dissociative disorders (what depersonalisation is a part of) become because of traumatic experiances that the mind distentiates itself from. but you can also have depersonalisation or derealistation (what you are refering to is derealisation rather then depersonalisation) symptoms witrhout having the disorder, and tehse symptoms can come with other disorders, such as severe depression or schizofrenia, and likely also with autistiform disorders· Lygophile   has   spoken  20:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Identity Crisis and depersonalization
My experience has been that I have been able to rationalize my feelings of depersonalization by recognising that they are linked to my feelings of confusion over my sense of identity. The concept in DP that one sees oneself as somehow absent or estranged from the person who is interpreting incoming information is bang on the money as far as I am concerned. Also the description that was used comparing it to the zooming effect sometimes used in cinematography is remarkably apt. Theres also the shot where they somehow fix a camera to a persons chest and the person is stable while his/her environment moves in a very disconcerting way.

I dont really get the point of this discussion though. The article Depersonalization has disputed neutrality? Is someone saying that the article in Wiki is too subjective? As far as I am aware there isn't really a full and proper understanding of this issue. This seems to be the consensus reading some of the contributions here. As such, I dont think it is possible yet to have a properly objective attitude toward this subject.

The question I am raising here, however, is whether people feel the question of a  crisis of identity ought to be included as a fundamental aspect of depersonalization and a way in which "people involuntarily experiencing" DP can be helped to understand the deeply unpleasant and frightening sensation?

--Chiendeguerre 08:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

What are people who have this disorder really afraid of?
I'm a sufferer of this disorder at 15 years old and about 5 months ago posted this comment.

This is to the person who says marijuana can't cause depersonilization. Buddy, you are totally wrong. I've smoked approx. 20 times and every single time i've gotten high I feel like I do when I have an intense depersonilization attack. It feels like I'm in a dream world, somewhere between reality and death. The higher you get, the worse you depersonilize. One time, me and a friend smoked two bowl packs out of bong. I reach the peak of my high, the intense depersonilzation part, which usually subsides in about 5-10 seconds. However, this time it it didn't. I felt like there were two seperate worlds created, the real one, and the one in which i was stoned. I freaked out, and had feelings that I would never be the same again. Two months later though, I got the courage to smoke again, and again got the same feelings. This time I got much less high, but the depersonalization was still there. My solution though is to ask myself what I was afraid of, and I learned to cope with the depersonilization, even though the expirience still made me feel uncomfortable. That's why I stopped smoking weed, and my advice to anyone out there who thinks they might have depersonilization disorder is not to smoke, as your first time smoking will be a nightmare, as mine was.

I have to say that now, things are worse. DP/DR is consuming my life. It's all i can think about when I'm not 100% distracted. I'm even getting bizare ideas that my food and drinks contain drugs that could mess with me. I'm even hesitant to take and kind of medication for the same reasons. What I wanted to know from people though is what exactly are you afraid of? I know that when I'm just walking around, I have a fear of escalation, like my reality will suddenly be shut off and I'll turn crazy. It also is worse when I have a lack of control. For instance, getting in a car makes me nervous, and I can't even imagine going on an airplane where there's no where to go in case of a panic attack. Even though I've never had a full-blown one, but the thought of it is completly overwhelming. I seriously hope there will be a day where my mind is free of all of this, because I don't want to live 70 more years with anxiety.

marijuana actually makes me feel the exact opposite of depersonalized. i feel this big "i have returned!" sensation and i get creative. and yet i tried mushrooms and cried for 2 hours. drugs are best enjoyed when you can leave your negative feelings alone for a while, in the company of people you trust, in an environment that you'd enjoy even if sober. those things didnt fall into place for me till i was 27. if you write this well at 15, i'll assume you're intelligent and college-bound, not some teeny-bopper glued to a cell phone. when i was 16 i thought i was going nuts. i felt like my internal and external reality were only functioning with each other because i hadnt seriously cracked yet. luckily i had parents and teachers that thought i was talented. go to college and major in something you love. be as weird as you want while the world still expects it of you. test your limits and gain some self confidence. finish school, get a job, distract yourself from perceived danger by doing those mundane things that protect you: excercise, buy good insurance, clean your house. if fear still follows you, absolutely seek professional help. that personal message said, should the article include the often-temporary anxiety, and its symptoms, of the young? we grown-ups poopoo their experiences and get episodes like columbine ya know. a scratch will heal. a picked-at scratch will get infected. same with minds, i bet. wikipeace to all, -kb 68.75.182.133 17:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm now 17 and I stumbled back on the old post I wrote before when I was 15. I can't believe some of the things I wrote; my life has totally changed for the better. I have abstained from all drugs except alcohol for the past two years, and let me tell you, the DP/DR has never been better. Yeah, I question reality on occasion, but it doesn't have the prominence that I described earlier. This is really great, and gives hope to everyone out there who seems hopelessly bogged down in DP. You are not alone, and from the perspective of someone who at times would rather die than live with it, it can get better. I also discovered by research that I probably have some form of OCD, which didn't help out the issue. Check into that if you have constant aniexty, there are ways to help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.119.148 (talk) 22:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with you also. For me it has been a lasting disorder every second of every day. To everyone else I seem to function perfectly. I am a honor student in college and have been very successful. But I have been suffering for 7 years. It feels like you are disconnected in some way. Like you have one foot in this world and the other somewhere else. I feel like a robot going through the motions. If the room had a taste to it then I would say now it tastes bland. Kinda like how a dream seems real when you are having it but then you wake up. And in that split second is how I feel every single second of everyday. Time also seems to be distorted. You are right it is a real disorder and it can go away. However, for some it never will. It is always there for me.

I am suffering from drug induced depersonalization. I only smoked weed once when this first happened 7 years ago. It was a very high potent dose and I experienced an extremely disturbing high. Hand to the bible the next day after and since then I was never the same. It is very rare to occur from marijuana use especially one time use. But it can trigger underlying psychosis and depersonalization permanently. In 2007 and 2008 researchers in Great Britain are begining to realize the connection though further study is needed. Just google for the findings. It also concluded that in very few cases it stayed long after the drug metabolized. and/or it raises someones chance for future permanant psychodic disorders by 40% Although the margins are very low. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.11.233.251 (talk) 05:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Military
"In fact, the military often purposely tries to induce depersonalization in its soldiers to make tasks easier that require tough decisions, such as using weapons."

Which military? All of them, the world over?

"Often"? What does that mean, in this context? Every day? Once a week?

Quite apart from the total absence of any reason why the reader should believe it. Cite an authority. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.226.1.229 (talk) 12:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Derealization
There used to be several articles on wikipedia regd. depersonalization and derealization. In the derealization article it was suggested to do a merge. I can not find the derealization article anymore so I assume some merging have taken place, but I can not find a merge in this articles history. I do however feel that some of the information given in the derealization article is missing in this article, but as I do not have a copy I can't specify what. I do also feel uncertain in regard to the question of wether DeRe and DePers are the same disorders. Anyone know anything about this?

80.203.65.215 19:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The derealization article was redirected to this article back in 2003 (see:). And there is no deletion history for the article (see: ). Are you sure that is the article that was proposed for a merge? -- Siobhan Hansa 02:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * i have written this in the section "derealisation" atop this talk page:
 * "depersonalisation is somewhat of a broad concept of percieving the world as if you are not part of it, or percieving yourself as not part of the world, or percieving yourself as unreal or not yourself (not recognising yourself), and derealisation is much more simply feeling like the world you exist in (and/or the persons in it) is unreal. and i think you can also feel disconnected from reality in some way, as if there is some kind of nonmaterial barrier, which i think may be in the overlap-zone between depers and dere, possibly being a part of both, but i do think its officially considered a part of derealisation"
 * 'depersonalisation disorder' is the disorder they give someone that has reoccuring depersonalisation but no amnesia or significant identity confusion, and if you have derealisation but no depersonalisation they wont give you the label 'depersonalisation disorder', but instead just give you "dissociative disorder not otherwise specified", which theyll give to anyone with such reoccuring symptoms but not falling under any of the four described disorders within the dissociative disorder group. does that answere your question?· Lygophile   has   spoken  00:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

depersonalizationdisorder.net?
Out of interest, does anyone know what has happened to this site? I have found it hugely useful, but almost a month ago I noticed it had gone offline. It's currently linked to in the article, but at the moment it seems the page does not exist. Ronius 18:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Well I've never heard of that one, but there is http://www.dpselfhelp.com, Just a forum for people with the actual disorder, or just suffering from occasional episodes. ¡Hay muchas preguntas y pocas respuestas! 14:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maggy Tito (talk • contribs)

Symptoms - Video game analogy
It reads: "Yet another analogy is comparing real life to a game, a game everyone plays, all the time......They are perpetual, and almost all the time, involuntary, cynics of our reality."

This is an excellent analogy, and I feel it truly captures the essence of a prolonged experience of depersonalization. However, I feel this would be best suited to be in the article on Depersonalization disorder, since this speaks to a longer experience than transient depersonalization. (Anyone know how to move text like that without stepping on anyone's toes?) Absentis 11:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I was bold and moved this text into the new 'Symptoms' heading in the depersonalization disorder article. Somebody tell me if this was horribly wrong. Absentis 17:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Work that needs to be done
The article as it stands confuses depersonalization (DP) with Derealization (DR) and depersonalization disorder (DPD). Simply put, DP is a symptom, and when it becomes a chronic experience it turns into DPD. However, DPD has more symptoms than just DP (such as DR). As for the DP article, it needs the following work:


 * Change 'symptoms' section to 'description' - alter contents accordingly. There are no symptoms of DP, since it is itself a symptom. However, a good explanation of the subjective experience is essential to explaning the difference between DP, DR, and DPD. (This is the most important task)
 * Causes - needs cleanup (better sources and flow)
 * Connection to psychological trauma - belongs in the DPD article.
 * Treatment - Not bad, it just needs to be very clear that treatment depends on the actual condition.

I'm going to start working on these changes. If anyone wants to help, feel free to pitch in! Absentis 15:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Difference between Depersonalization and Psychosis
Can someone elaborate on this? It seems that the overall description of these two conditions are very similar (as with many other disorders or conditions). I know that there are some obvious differences but any big ones? I'm mainly looking for differences in symptoms (or just description if you think that DP is just a symptom and nothing more) and description but anything is fine. Causes are fairly similar and some other things. There seems to be enough differences in the two conditions to constitute a seperate listing in the DSM but just looking for a bit more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.51.145 (talk) 00:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * With depersonalization, individuals are always in contact with reality. At all times they can say what is, and what isn't real. Psychosis, at its core, is a break from reality; they can't differentiate reality from fantasy. So, although people who experience depersonalization report they feel less real, or detached from their body (or any number of similar symptoms) they know its only a feeling.  They don't believe they actually have ceased to exist (such is the case of a nihilistic delusion, which is indicative of psychosis.) 70.51.244.154 (talk) 01:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Phenylephrine causing depersonalization as a side effect?
I recently took some sinus medication that uses Phenylephrine, and feel kind of odd. Not like I have to call 911 and go to the emergency room odd. Kind of out of it. I wonder if you think perhaps how Caffeine can cause some people who use it to feel depersonalization, that Phenylephrine might have the same effect in the sense that they're both mild stimulants. Cause if I drink something with Caffeine in it, I feel strange too. I'm just wondering if you should mention this in the article for both Penylephrine and Psuedophedrine, since they're very similar drugs.

On another note, I probably should call my psychatrist before I take this medicine again, you think? Violet yoshi (talk) 04:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

World Trade Center/Pentagon Attack prevalence of depersonalization
In so many interviews from on the ground observers of the 9/11 attacks, and so many while seeing it on the media, the attacks "seemed like a movie", which is a way, I think, of depersonalizing the horror of what is taking place before their eyes.

I know I did, when I saw the second plane hit the tower, when I thought almost that I was watching a horrible vision (I live near the Towers), and felt a kind of leaving of my senses completely (not to get too personal about this, but this is the case).

Can this fact (for that is what it is) of truly widespread depersonalization ("Oh my God, it's like a movie"), although brief, be inserted and commented on somewhere?

In addition, for a medical cite, which admits it is based on two tests with small sample sizes, I have this, from Psychiatry 69(2): Summer 2006:

Lawyer, Sten R. et. al. Predictors of Peritraumatic Reaction and PTSD Following the September 11th Terrorist Attacts

It can be read online at: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:F5HLtQPwZJsJ:www.isu.edu/~lawystev/pubs/lawyeretalWTC2006.pdf+depersonalization+World+Trade+attack&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjmxn9GTHB5qVSzzgTqaoaJSZL0X1u-PMHB4R4Vovc8T8g6PyRNNXgwPP8jcjtwx6T6uWE3GbTamjM1cI2HIfszn7lZZedlQ4atj8rLBPQeloPzBDwDOQ3QoXLB-dSuxK7p7-vv&sig=AHIEtbQwnCE46V21KhztIxzym2tZdRQapg

I don't even have the Wiki chops to insert the cite correctly.

I think the example would be excellent as an example for the wide audience reading the entry.

Best,

Shlishke (talk) 06:33, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Fiction Depersonalization Syndrome
I removed the following text from the article, which was put back in by SecondGuess:


 * "A recent hypothesis, Fiction Depersonalization Syndrome, first posited in the 2009 novel Swimming Inside the Sun, (and presented at the Media Ecology Association's 2010 Annual Convention) suggests that people's immersion in the "observational" reality of the modern world (rather than the historically dominant "experiential" reality) can lead to depersonalization. "

I removed this text again. According to WP:MEDRS there are high demands on sources for medicine-related articles. The source that is given is fiction, it is not even a tertiary source. The fact that it is presented at a convention does not mean that it is recognized as an important development in depersonalization.

Maybe, if the book is notable (which I don't know) an article can be made about the book instead... Lova Falk    talk   14:57, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Lova Falk I appreciate your rigor in wanting to keep content well-sourced and accurate. I disagree with your assessment here, though. The fact that the hypothesis was first posited in a novel is largely irrelevant to its importance in the field. (We can remove the text referencing the novel if that makes a difference to you.) Fiction DP Syndrome is a hypothesis, and was listed as such; it is not claiming to be medical fact, or even at the level of medical theory, therefore it doesn't necessitate the same type of sourcing. Hypotheses generally (though not in all instances) will not be able to have the level of sourcing required of facts or even theories. Once it has double blind studies, med journals, etc. reporting on it or supporting it then it bumps up from being merely a hypothesis. By your rationale, hypotheses would never be included in any medically-related entries, and that is a disservice to readers. Hypotheses are an important component in growing medical knowledge on any given topic. I think the issue is whether the hypothesis is recognized enough by the academy (or other substantial group) to warrant inclusion in an entry. The fact that this was selected to be presented at an international convention of scholars (from a highly respected organization) from a variety of fields, including psychology, indicates that it has enough support and academic interest around it that it's valuable to the overall discussion of DP, and worthy of inclusion. I don't want to go back and forth undoing each other's edits so I'll wait for a response from you which hopefully will be a re-insertion of the text. I think I've made a reasonable case for its inclusion and hope you understand where I'm coming from. --SecondGuess (talk) 17:08, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you SecondGuess for not starting an edit conflict with me. However, when it comes to hypotheses, there is WP:No original research. Amongst other things, it says: "To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the material as presented."


 * Just a week ago, I was confused by the removal of some text that I thought was perfectly referenced. I had a short discussion with the editor (who has much more experience with Wikipedia than I have), who explained to me the line of reasoning.
 * So I won't put your text back in - yet. I might be wrong. I hope others than the two of us will comment on this discussion.  Lova Falk     talk   17:46, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * PS. I did not remove your text about this book from depersonalization disorder, because it was in the section society and culture.  Lova Falk     talk   17:48, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I put it back - but in the section popular culture. I hope you are satisfied with this compromise!  Lova Falk     talk   06:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

This seems like a fair compromise. I think you are right - popular culture is the appropriate section for inclusion of the hypothesis at this time. (FYI - the hypothesis will soon be under consideration by a respected academic journal. Should it be published there, perhaps at that time it will appropriate to move it back to the other section.) I see that a "citation needed" is at the end of the text you entered re the presentation at the MEA convention. The media ecology website has a link to a pdf of the convention program which lists Zweig and his presentation. I don't know how to link to a pdf (or if that's done on wikipedia) but if you know how to do it go to the MEA website, click "11th annual convention" then you will see the link for the "program". SecondGuess (talk • contribs) 02:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Great! Another editor put the link there. Just check how it is done, it is easy. I hope you'll edit when the article has been published.  Lova Falk     talk   17:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Per the discussion here, as well as the discussion I had here with user Hellosun I support the removal of this text. There are allegations that it is a fringe theory being added by someone with a conflict of interest. I am not a great supporter of addition of popular culture trivia. This new theory of depersonalisation should only be sourced to good quality scholarly sources.-- Literature geek |  T@1k?  05:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I edited this out roughly 1 week ago and i was pleased to return and find it had not been put back. I was wondering how these referenced media conventions are relevant to depersonalization. I would assume that no one involved in these conventions had any decent level of knowledge of depersonalization. I then imagined a group of people, who know nothing about depersonalization, sitting and listening to this man tell them that the experts are wrong and he's right and that depersonalization is caused by computers, tv, advertisments etc (as stated in his video). In the video, he even mentions an advertisement in a toilet as somehow being relevant. I think this is just a case of someone who has taken the comparisons far too literally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.108.16.173 (talk) 09:23, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Depersonalization is Absence of a Sense of Agency
Co-authors Sierra M and Berrios GE list "loss of feelings of agency" as a symptom of depersonalization:

J Nerv Ment Dis. 2001 Sep;189(9):629-36. The phenomenological stability of depersonalization: comparing the old with the new. Sierra M, Berrios GE http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11580008 See Table 1, Glossary: The Components of Depersonalization

As a depersonalization sufferer, I find the description "loss of a sense of agency" to be very applicable to depersonalization.

Unreal24-7 (talk) 09:23, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

depersonalization (feeling disconnected from oneself) vs. depersonalization (turning others into group members)
I'm a psychologist and a psych prof, and I'm a little flabbergasted by the way these two totally different uses of the terms are mixed in together in a couple spots in this entry.

Most of the entry is about feeling disconnected, with this thrown in at the bottom of the first section


 * In social psychology (including social identity theory and self-categorization theory), the term depersonalization has a different meaning. In this area of research, depersonalization refers to a switch to a group level of self-categorization in which self and others are seen in terms of their group identities.

I really think this belongs in its own "disambiguation" category.

The same thing happens in the Pop Culture examples, where turning others into group members (ie in American Psycho) is mixed in with feeling disconnected in the film Numb

And then someone else threw in


 * R. D. Laing used depersonalization to mean a fear of the loss of autonomy in interpersonal relationships by the ontologically insecure.[citation needed]"

This is a totally different definition that confuses the issue even more.

Hope I'm making sense! Katsesama (talk) 03:24, 10 September 2010 (UTC)