Talk:Deportation of Armenian intellectuals on 24 April 1915

Comment
Any sources to confirm the following?!

"There is also a tendency among sources to concentrate the event around the date of 24 April 1915, giving an impression of immediate arrests on that date and prompt exiling, although a case-by-case approach may diminish the validity of that impression."

Where are the mentioned "cases"?

Very good idea to create a list of deportees of 24 April 1915
Hello everybody, It is a very good idea - though not without difficulties - to create a list of the deportees of 11 April 1915 (old calendar) 24 April respectively. I encourage you to write biographical articles in a second step about all these deportees.

It is a very important task! The only source up to now in the article is Kâmuran Gürün. That looks a little bit meager to me. Eyewitness accounts should be added: Krikor Balakian, for the clergy especially Teotik (Teodoros Teodoros Lapçinciyan ) sure!!! And letters of the deportees (Komitas, Krikor Zohrab, etc.) are valuable sources as well. The number of deportees is difficult to tell. Unless you follow each (famous) deportee individually you may end in a maze.

Timeline: What days should one focus on? Easter Saturday to Easter Monday 1915, the first wave of arrestation? The whole following week? Depending on the days you focus on you will have +/- 250 deportees or far more.

The black list that the collaborator Artin Mkrtichian handed over to the Young Turks?

The list of the Armenian railway workers in Eskişehir where the deportation train had to refuel water. The Armenian railway workers noticed that there was a deportation train to inner Anatolia and the deportees used the occasion to hand the workers down a list of the deportees. It was used to petition the release of the deportees through the patriarch Zaven Der Yeghiayan.

If you focus mainly on the upper class deportees of Constantinople of the period you will end up with a list of +/- 2.500 deportees.

Another valuable smaller source for the beginning: Garine Avakian: Եղեռնահուշ մասունք կամ խոստովանողք եւ վկայք խաչի [Relic of the Genocide or to those who suffered in the name of the cross and died for their faith], Yerevan, 2002 ISBN 99930-2-436-8. (explains on the basis of a rosary (Hamritsch) with the engraved names of the deportees, that a deportee himself, Varteres Attanesian (Nr. 71), produced, the events of Çankırı, the first deportation stop in Anatolia.) Garine Avakian mainly uses Balakian and the first hand account of Vartares Attanesian. The good thing is that she focuses on about 100 deportees. - That's a reasonable beginning!

My opinion: I think one should keep in eye as much as all the 2.500 upper class Armenians (there were several thousand lower class deportees from Constantinople as well). Their lives are most insightful for the events. Let's try to organize this! Apocolocynthosis (talk) 15:25, 25 December 2007 (UTC) PS. BTW Krikor Zohrab did not perish as stated in the article - he definitely was killed and the murderer's name is known! I am convinced this list is very, very important. We need biographical details as much as we can find. Let's start! Apocolocynthosis (talk) 15:33, 25 December 2007 (UTC) Reason for release should be mentioned as well. It looks strange otherwise. Some like Dikran Kelekian were teachers of Young Turkish politicians or their friends But Diran Kelekian was killed afterwards anyway 20 October 1915.Apocolocynthosis (talk) 15:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The savage killing of Krikor Zohrab: Ahmet Refik Altınay "Zohrab'ı tuttum, ayağımın altına aldım,taşla başına vura vura gebertdim ". That's clear how he perished. We have to focus on the essentials in the spreadsheet and leave out details like evening dinners of Nakulian. These belong to their specific biographic articles. But it is questionable whether dinners are part of an encyclopedia. A proper language must be found. Apocolocynthosis (talk) 17:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I made some checked corrections and added new names, also deleted the part on Hunchakian Murad Poyajian (Medzn Murad or Murad of Hajin, the brother of Hunchakian hero Jirair), which confuses him with Dashnak revolutionary Murad of Sebastia (WWI Armenian volunteers commander, comrade of General Andranik). Its proved that they are different persons and there are articles in Wiki dedicated to each Murad. Andranikpasha (talk) 23:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I wasn't aware of Fatma Müge Göçek's speech. Great source. Aren't there more deportees you can add to the list basing from her speech? Regards Apocolocynthosis (talk) 16:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * What is the purpose of the number given against each named deportee? The list is not arranged alphabetically, is there a reason behind their present ordering? Meowy 20:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no sense. The list has simply grown. As far as I know it's the longest I met up to now.


 * There are traditional lists of Krikor Balakian who has two separate lists for Ayas and Cankiri and he starts with the most famous or the Reverends and doctors respectively. And Teotiks lists (either in his year book or in his Golgotha of the Armenian clergy) that are not very logical for us nowadays (those grouped into ten different fates (e.g. those hiding in Bulgaria vs. (!) those leaving Turkey) or in nine professional groups). Teotig cannot serve as an example in categorizing - but is one of the best sources. Alphabetical order sounds good to me. We simply have to be aware that very well known people (like Zohrab) will be at the end. Numbers are good for orientation (how many are on the list?) but not very comfortable when we have to insert new names and I am sure there will be additional names. Well, just plain alphabetical order! You convinced me! Apocolocynthosis (talk) 21:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Translation
How would you translate ազգ. ու կրթ. գործիչ into English? I tried with 'patriot or educator'. What sounds more modern? - If I know more specific professions than given those by Teotig I'll use them but there are still a lot of deportees who are just 'patriots or educators' according to Teotig. That's not very satisfying. Apocolocynthosis (talk) 22:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The format of the table
It would have been much more readable if its layout was "the informational row + the textual row" for each person. I mean:

Court martial section
The language here is not clear. One can only guess what information is meant to be conveyed. It needs research/improvement Hmains (talk) 03:15, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

New name

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: move has been carried out. Closing request accordingly. - GTBacchus(talk) 15:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

...or
 * Deportation of Armenian intellectuals in 1915
 * Deportation of Armenian public figures in 1915

— "Armenian notables deported from Constantinople in 1915" is not a common name. --Yerevanci (talk) 01:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Names in Armenian
I don't think their names should be written in Armenian language in this page. It makes the page look too tacky and it actually goes against Wiki's rules. In Wiki rules, their names should only be written in the native language in their own page like Aram Andonian. Chaldean (talk) 07:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I think you're right, but as you see, most of the people don't have a separate page. --Yerevanci (talk) 01:31, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Coloured Dates
What's the purpose of having this template on the page? Irish Melkite (talk) 10:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Deportees
Whered the entire list of deportees go?! That was a really important for genocide researchers and scholars! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Proudbolsahye (talk • contribs) 01:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

References / footnotes

 * I looked up all the given ISBNs, and provided the ISBNs, OCLC#'s, and LCCNs. I also rewrote quite a few to use citation templates for consistent formatting. (Where I modified names, etc. it was for consistency with the spelling used in the book records. I didn't change any 'article content' (only the names in the references), but some of the authors were not in the 'romanization' that libraries use.
 * I didn't mess with further reading, but it has the same issue.
 * I moved the notes on the table columns into a "note" group.
 * I moved all the 'textual' comments out of 'References' into a "footnote" group.
 * I changed the 'reference formatting' from hard 3 columns to 30em. It makes it autoformat based on the reader's screen width.
 * I'd /like/ to combine the places where different pages of the same book are repeatedly cited, but that would be hard to do atm. Is anyone going to complain if I convert the citations to list-defined references? It'll let you actually /read/ the table markup, and I'll be able to use rp to condense the references more.

Revent (talk) 01:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

removing repeated names
I'm removing the names that are repeated in the list. The top 15 names are also mentioned in the list. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:47, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust The Homunculus 14:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Deportation of Armenian notables on 24 April 1915 → Deportation of Armenian intellectuals on 24 April 1915 – The term "intellectual" ("a person who primarily uses intelligence in either a professional or an individual capacity") is more accurate in describing all these people (lawyers, physicians, artists, writers) than the word "notable", which simply "a famous or important person". I doubt that they were all famous, even within the Armenian community of Constantinople, but they were certainly people who "used their brains". Ե րևանցի talk  16:30, 5 January 2014 (UTC) Google Books generates 99 results for "Deportation" "Armenian" "notables" 24 April 1915" and 446 results for "Deportation" "Armenian" "intellectuals" 24 April 1915", so "intellectual" does seem to be common as well. -- Ե րևանցի talk  16:30, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Support Per common name. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:33, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. The term "intellectual" seems to describe these individuals more accurately. --1ST7 (talk) 03:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. More appropriate. Maurice07 (talk) 22:57, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

New depths of ludicrousness
"Eventually, the total number of arrests and deportations amounted to 2,345" we are told. We are given a reference for this: Dadrian. It is on page 221 of my paperback volume. Astonishment should not be too strong a word when reading the source Dadrian actually cites for this figure. It is Esat Uras and his notorious "The Armenians in History and the Armenian Question", a propaganda work that seeks to deny that Armenia was ever a nation, and of course denies there was a genocide. And as for that "2345" figure in Uras's book, it is fairly well known that it was just a typo, and should be "235"! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:55, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * To clarify the above. The "Eventually, the total number of arrests and deportations amounted to 2,345" claim in the article is entirely false, no such arrests and deportations took place. It originated as a typo error for 235, 235 being the number of persons deported on 24 April, and then as a very an amateurish acceptance that the number 2345 referred to a different event from the 235 one. Finally, by repeating this false claim often enough, and in enough sources, it becomes true and undisputable for Wikipedia.  Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Why?
Besides a very limited "The event has been described by historians as a decapitation strike which was intended to deprive the Armenian population of leadership and a chance for resistance", the article tells us nothing about why this took place. What was the motivation behind it? To "deprive the Armenian population of leadership" is not a goal, it is the means to a goal - what was the objective? Regards, Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 17:37, 26 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The objective was genocide. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:10, 26 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Genocide is not an objective, it is a means to an end. To want a genocide, something must motivate it. Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 11:59, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree that the section needs a bit more context to live up to FL quality. 23 editor (talk) 15:58, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Your point is well-taken. However, we can't add everything about the AG here. There are numerous causes for it. That's why we have the Armenian Genocide article to help better explain that for us. It'll be like adding information as to why the Holocaust happened in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising article. That'll be redundant I'm afraid. Étienne Dolet (talk) 14:35, 28 February 2016 (UTC)


 * and Thanks for your time and looking into this. I get your point about redundancy. I will try and find time later to see if there is a way or incorporating a few words to smooth over the jolt. Something about retaliation for Armenian support for the Young Turks coup and movement ... that escalated to the point of full-blown genocide. That's just an intial thought, I need to read more, would not want to be rash. Keep well. Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 15:10, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

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