Talk:Deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia

Tags
There are many tags in this article. Could you explain reasons ? It's difficult for us to improve, neutralize, delete..... without knowing reasons. Takabeg (talk) 02:31, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. I think the topic of this article is similar to Azerbaijani and other Turkic peoples in Armenia. Takabeg (talk) 02:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * No Takabeg, it's not the same as Azerbaijani and other Turkic peoples in Armenia. The Azerbaijani and other Turkic peoples in Armenia article tells about the Azerbaijani population of Armenia. Deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia tells the story of systematic deportation and ethnic cleansing of Azerbaijani minority in Armenia. You have two different articles for "Armenian genocide" and "Armenians in Turkey", don't you? Ladytimide (talk) 15:25, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Deportation of Azerbaijanis 1.jpg Nominated for Deletion
Images are questionable and from unreliable sources. Check NPOV criteria for reliability. Hablabar (talk) 22:53, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

"Causes"
This section was removed because it comes from here, a dead link saved in Web Archive. The deleted PACE PDF states that "This motion has not been discussed in the Assembly and commits only the members who have signed it", therefore it cannot be used in the article. --92slim (talk) 07:14, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Article deletion
This article was nominated for deletion back in 2013, and the result was Keep. Therefore it can't really be nominated again without consensus. If anything it should be discussed here. --92slim (talk) 14:47, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is close to WP:FORUMSHOPPING. It's better to discuss potential concerns here now. Brandmeistertalk  15:20, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There are grounds for deletion on OR Synthesis reasons that could be explored. A key factor would be if what there is of its legitimate content also exists on other articles. OR Synthesis would support at the very least a radical pruning. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:50, 18 November 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.
 * The content isn't available anywhere else on Wikipedia as far as I've seen, and is constantly being removed by editors. The main article is Azerbaijanis in Armenia, so there must be duplicate information on each one which can be reduced in size. There can be no doubt that there were policies of ethnic cleansing, but to which extent there is SYNTH in relation to the numbers (for example) is not possible for me to say. --92slim (talk) 08:25, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Tags
There appears to be a large amount of unreferenced or deceptively referenced content in the article, and content that appears to be OR and Synth. For example, under Relocation from the Armenian SSR we have raw figures quoted from census documentation, and then those figures are ORed into the unsourced claim of a "Soviet-era deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia". Extreme claims using extreme language like "Cleansing Armenia of the Azerbaijani Muslims with the purpose of strengthening Armenia’s stronghold was one of the plans of the Soviet regime." are unsourced. This is again followed by OR quotes from primary documents and associated OR claims. Following on from that section, in Gradual relocation from Armenia we have sources misused and misquoted - for example the "According to Azerbaijani statistics, about 40,897 Azerbaijani families were wholly deported. 216 people died during the resettlement" claim is a misrepresentation of the source - the 216 is not Azerbaijani statistics, it is the estimate of an individual, and nor was there a "resettlement" process - persons are leaving for many reasons, and not as a result of any organized deportation process. And the 216 figure is for the entire 1987-88 period, whereas in the content is made out to be from just the single incident in the single district of Kafan. And the omission that these deportations were often tit-for-tat responses to equivalent deportations in Azerbaijan is surely intentional bias. The final section has even more unsourced extreme claims - "The last time a policy of homogenization was carried out" is without sourced justification that ANY policy of homogenization was carried out or even ever existed. Of course the prime flaw in this article is the OR synth linking for pov propaganda of separate events that took place over the timespan of a century and that are individually distinct both in time and in the circumstances of their occurrence. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:28, 2 December 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

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Acts of sabotage motivated by historical revisionism
Some users have tried sabotaging this article by adding or modifying sentences in order to depaint these deportations as false and the evidence used to back it as made up, in other words to deshumanize and deligitimize the suffering one human group had to live through to boost an armenian chauvinist agenda. This is straight historical revisionism propaganda contrary to the neutral tone valued by wikipedia in an act of childish, monstrous sabotage. I reverted the changes that I've seen, without any doubt being possible to made about their intentions,but some experts who speaks russian will have to double check the numbers and quotes to make sure they are representative of their sources as I suspect they have been tempered with. I also recommand a lockdown of this page to prevent any edit war that could be made by these unknown users as an act of revenge until the page is properly restored to its former self while preserving the genuine additions made since these sabotages. I might have not seen more subtle acts of sabotage. 166.62.226.25 (talk) 04:03, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Zangezur
''In 1897, out of the 137,9 thousand people living in Zangezursky Uyezd, 63,6 thousand was Armenian (46,2%), 71,2 thousand was Azerbaijani (51,7%), 1,8 thousand was Kurdish (1,3%). According to agricultural census of 1922, the whole population of Zangezur was 63,5 thousand people, including 59,9 thousand Armenians (89,5%), 6,5 thousand Azerbaijanis (10,2%) and 200 Russians (0,3%).''

Except that according to Zangezur Uyezd article After the establishment of the Soviet rule over the Southern Caucasus, the uyezd's territory was divided between Soviet Armenia and Soviet Azerbaijan: Armenia acquired the predominantly Armenian-populated Sisian, Goris, Kapan, and Meghri districts and Azerbaijan took Lachin, Kubately, and Zangelan, where the population was mostly Muslim.

Does Zangezur (census of 1922) include Lachin, Kubately, and Zangelan? Hemşinli çocuk 19:17, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * , as far as I know, the uyezd included some villages in Qubadli and Zangilan districts and not the towns themselves but did include Lachin. But I think it's already worded correctly in the article as it avoids claiming that Zangezur corresponds fully to modern Syunik. — CuriousGolden (T·C)  19:26, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
 * @Ermenermin @Golden If we are to examine RS, such as the Atlas of the Ethno-Political History of the Caucasus, on page 81, it's evident that the Zangezur uezd of Armenia was partitioned with Azerbaijan in July 1921, whereby the latter was ceded the southeastern slopes of the uezd roughly corresponding to the above-mentioned districts (Lachin, Gubadli, and Zangelan). Therefore, by the time of the agricultural census of 1922, these districts were excluded from the population of post-1921 Zangezur. – 𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙 ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 04:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Redirect
Hello Kevo327. I think that it is incorrect to redirect the article (Deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia (1947-1950)) on the here. Deportation of 1947-1950 covers a different cycle and is part of a common process. By this logic, we must summarize the Safavid-Ottoman wars and the Karabakh wars in one article. Just like here.--Qızılbaş (talk) 20:07, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * , hello, it happens to be quite the same and is already included here, with some minor differences. The Safavid-Ottoman wars are WP:OTHERSTUFF. - Kevo3 2 7 (talk) 23:49, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Kevo327, Deportations in the early, middle and late twentieth century are different. There should be a separate article about them. Also, in terms of obtaining information, the previous form is more convenient.--Qızılbaş (talk) 00:41, 22 September 2021 (UTC)


 * , why should there be an independent article if everything (along with the differences you mention) are perfectly explained here already, I think the differences are better explained and more understandable in a collective article like this, where you can easily compare all deportation events without cycling through 3-4 different articles, isn't this more convenient?. - K<b style="color:#000000">evo</b><sup style="color:#d90012">3 <sup style="color:#0033a0">2 <sup style="color:#f2a800">7 (talk) 06:38, 22 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Kevo327, It is not a problem to stay in this form too. I've looked at other similar articles, both separately and together. Therefore, I think it should remain a separate article. There are available both collectively and individually. So, I dont agree with you. I hope that you will agree with me. Actually, I can not understand why do you against this.--Qızılbaş (talk) 20:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I know and understand that there are other articles that are independent, but those articles are longer or have much more content that need to be seperated, this is not the case here where the seperate article in it's entirety fits within a section, do you plan to expand the seperate article with more sources than the one in the independent article? Or does it have a lot more content that we can show? If yes, i don't mind having an independent article, if no, then why have an independent duplicate of the section on this article? Can you give your feedback on this? All in all I don't mind it that much and would revert myself if you can fulfil anything i mentioned above. - <b style="color:#d90012">K</b><b style="color:#000000">evo</b><sup style="color:#d90012">3 <sup style="color:#0033a0">2 <sup style="color:#f2a800">7 (talk) 20:14, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Kevo327, ok. Please revert yourself edit, then I will start expanding the article.--Qızılbaş (talk) 20:50, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

expand coverage
Would it be better to expand coverage of the article, and include deportation and ethnic cleansing of Azerbaijanis prior to the creation of the Armenia Republic? For example, at the end of the 19th century, 51% of the Yerevan gubernia population were Azerbaijanis, which drastically changed before Armenia creation, due to deportations and ethnic cleanings. --Abrvagl (talk) 16:05, 15 February 2022 (UTC)


 * @Abrvagl I would recommend adding the paragraphs from the Azerbaijanis in Armenia article pertaining to the First Republic of Armenia to this article – it is not only more detailed, but also contains a plethora of diverse sources to give the reader a broader understanding of the history of the deportations/massacres and their context. – <b style="color:#c75630">𝑵𝒖𝒏𝒖𝒙𝒙𝒙</b> ✪ 𝑇𝑎𝑙𝑘 04:24, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Changing article content and structure
Hi @Marshall Bagramyan, hope you're well. I reverted your edit as it removes significant content – I think it's important to discuss this change first so that we can ensure that it's an improvement to the article. In truth, this whole article seems poorly structured, and deserving of a revamp and reevaluation of some its content, which is why I'm proposing that we do it in a collaborative manner and discuss it here. Regards – <b style="color:#fcc203">Ol</b><b style="color:#fcba03">ym</b><b style="color:#fcb103">pi</b><b style="color:#fca903">an</b> <b style="color:#a3a0a0">loquere</b> 05:11, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Deportation usage
Like so much else on Armenian-Azerbaijani Wiki, this article suffers from deep defects, namely that of synthesis. The word deportation implies the active voice, that is, that someone or something was actually involved in moving a group of people to another location. While a case for that can certainly be made for the post-WWII period, it strains credulity. Arguably, what took place between 1988-1992 was more akin to a population exchange (kind of like the 1922 Greco-Turkish exchange) rather than a deportation. Through acts of intimidation, violence, and social pressure, the populations in both Armenia and Azerbaijan decided to give up their lives and move elsewhere. So far as I know, the governments of neither state actively (except perhaps during Operation Ring) implemented measures to remove entire peoples from these regions. And, as other scholars have noted, the reports of deportations from Ghapan/Kapan in 1987 are almost entirely unsupported by any outside source. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 05:14, 4 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Pages 62–63 of Modern Hatreds: The Symbolic Politics of Ethnic War by Stuart J Kaufman state that "Armenians began driving ethnic Azerbaijanis in villages in Armenia"
 * Pages 18–19 of Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War by Thomas de Waal state that Azerbaijanis fled Kapan "as a result of interethnic violence".
 * Would you agree that it's probably inadequate to label these events as a simple "population exchange"? A deportation as Wikipedia defines it is "the expulsion of a person or group of people from a place or country", which I believe fits with what the above sources state. That being said, I'm happy to "refine" this article's content to fit these sources. By the way, those bullet-points that you removed from the article are sourced from this BBC Russian article, as far as I see, this source generally supports what the above books already state, so I can't see its usage here as inappropriate. Let me know your thoughts. – <b style="color:#fcc203">Ol</b><b style="color:#fcba03">ym</b><b style="color:#fcb103">pi</b><b style="color:#fca903">an</b> <b style="color:#a3a0a0">loquere</b> 07:15, 4 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, but neither of those instances count as deportations. While a deportation may literally mean the forcible expulsion of a group or people, again, the word itself implies the active voice (namely, removed or deported by whom?). Being driven away or fleeing is not the same thing. The agent of the verb is different, if you follow me. And regarding the BBC, in normal circumstances, yes, we can consider it a reliable source, but in this case this is an instance that was first repeated by someone (mainly by Thomas de Waal, who first amplified the claims about Ghapan and who, not by accident, used to work for the BBC) and then accepted as unchallenged truth. Whereas a number of scholars have come to scrutinize this claim by pointing that in reality no evidence outside of Azerbaijan exists to substantiate it (see footnotes 73-74 here). Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:06, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, but neither of those instances count as deportations
 * So again, how would you phrase these events if not deportation? Because I'm sure we can both agree that "population exchange" is inappropriate.
 * … then accepted as unchallenged truth
 * I'll have to disagree with you here: the reason being that de Waal and the BBC source are not the only ones supporting this claim – it's also supported by Kaufman as outlined in my first reply.
 * Whereas a number of scholars have come to scrutinize this claim by pointing that in reality no evidence outside of Azerbaijan exists to substantiate it
 * I'm aware of these as I wrote part of that section on that article – I think it should be noted that it's not a "number of scholars", it's one (Cheterian), and the other source's author, Tatul Hakobyan, is not a scholar, rather, a reporter (something like Thomas de Waal).
 * Therefore, we have four sources (Kaufman & de Waal vs Cheterian & Hakobyan) of ostensibly equal credibility presenting two views. Based on this, it doesn't seem right to favour one set of sources' view over the other, rather, we should present both views (as is done in article you linked) and let the reader make their own conclusion whether these deportations from Kapan occured. – <b style="color:#fcc203">Ol</b><b style="color:#fcba03">ym</b><b style="color:#fcb103">pi</b><b style="color:#fca903">an</b> <b style="color:#a3a0a0">loquere</b> 02:04, 5 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding what is at issue in this article here. The question in this article is not whether these acts actually took place; Kaufman indeed speaks about acts of violence driving Azerbaijanis out, but that's not a deportation. Rather, the question is whether they meet the definition of a deportation and, frankly, anyone with a solid command of the English language will know the clear difference and why it's problematic here.


 * Semantics matter and there is a reason why words exist. I know this may come off as elementary, but there does seem here to be some stubbornness on your end to understand that there exist clear semantic differences between deportations, population exchanges, expulsions, and so on. For example, the expulsion of the Greeks from the Ottoman Empire in 1920-23 was an expulsion, not a deportation because the Kemalists did not actually physically remove the Greeks. The Nazis sending Jews to camps in Poland were deportations because the Nazis were the agents in charge of their removal. All this arises from the fact that this article is tendentiously structured in a way that views the departure of all Azerbaijanis from Armenia as a "deportation," whereas that actually has not been the case.Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 03:39, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Deprecating my English-ability isn't helpful nor called for. I've asked you twice what other word you'd use to describe these events other than deportation, but you keep avoiding the question and trying to discuss unrelated semantics. If you're prepared to answer the question with a constructive reply, please do so. — <b style="color:#fcc203">Ol</b><b style="color:#fcba03">ym</b><b style="color:#fcb103">pi</b><b style="color:#fca903">an</b> <b style="color:#a3a0a0">loquere</b> 10:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Hardly. I'm sorry if it may have come off that may, but I've addressed your question already with a fairly straightforward solution. I would leave in only those actual acts of deportation in the article, perhaps renaming it "Deportations...of 1947-1953" to improve clarity. The stuff from before and after those periods do not meet the definition of a deportation and so can be relegated elsewhere. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:09, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The removal of the article's long-standing referenced content based on the POV definition of "deportation" isn't an improvement. All of the content omitted from the article falls under the deportation category, and nowhere near the "population exchange" category. As I stated above, it is in-line with Wikipedia's definition of a deportation. Moreover, here's an example quote from page 4 of the Elements of Crime by the International Criminal Court: "Article 7 (1) (d) Crime against humanity of deportation or forcible transfer of population: The perpetrator deported or forcibly(12) transferred,(13) without grounds permitted under international law, one or more persons to another State or location, by expulsion or other coercive acts."


 * "Footnotes: 12 The term “forcibly” is not restricted to physical force, but may include threat of force or coercion, such as that caused by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or abuse of power against such person or persons or another person, or by taking advantage of a coercive environment. 13. “Deported or forcibly transferred” is interchangeable with “forcibly displaced”"


 * – <b style="color:#fcc203">Ol</b><b style="color:#fcba03">ym</b><b style="color:#fcb103">pi</b><b style="color:#fca903">an</b> <b style="color:#a3a0a0">loquere</b> 12:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but neither Wikipedia nor the ICC is perfect; in fact the ICC's definition supports my contention by emphasizing the agency of who is doing the moving. The fact of the matter is that a deportation is an expulsion that is enforced, supervised, and carried out by another body or group of individuals. If it was all the same, then we wouldn't be bickering over the nuances of each of these words. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:19, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Semantics are important if we care about articles being correct, which hopefully we do. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  17:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)