Talk:Deputy of the Prime Minister of Israel

Deputy Leader of Israel?
Shouldn't the title of this article be Deputy Prime Minister of Israel & is Shimon Peres still the 2nd DPM? GoodDay 17:27, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * 1) Shimon Peres is not part of the Israeli government at present (see date in signature, because he is hardly ever out for long).
 * 2) The title of the current article should be deputy head/leader of the Israeli executive power or something of the sort, because the deputy leader can also be the replacement for the President (Chair of the Knesset, not titled as such). Perhaps you or anyone else can think of a name combining both the Deputy Prime Minister and the Vice Premier without one of either names.
 * 3) Another option, which actually has my preference, would be to split the article into both the above functions. Each article will shortly refer to other and an explanation of the situation can also be given in more general articles on Israeli politics and government, where relevant.
 * 4) Regards, gidonb 01:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, if no one rejects my proposal, I am going to split the article in two. gidonb 13:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Confusion over current holders of titles
I have started sort of a mini-sweep of articles concerning Israeli leaders (other than Olmert, so far) to update their status following the installation of a new government, but I have hit sort of a snag which makes me uncertain about what to do with this article. Following the information on the official Israeli government web site (http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mkindex_current_eng.asp?view=4) I edited the article about Tzipi Livni to reflect that she is Vice Prime Minister in the new government. However, I then remembered that I had seen somewhere else that Shimon Peres is Vice Prime Minister in the new government. Here it is: http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D040503/650ministers.jpg. The official list has Livni as Vice PM and Amir Peretz, Shaul Mofaz and one other as Deputy PM's, while the Haaretz photo array says that Peres is Vice PM and Livni is Deputy PM. I wrote a "talkback" to Haaretz.com to ask why their list differs from the official list but I suspect that is not going to get me very far. I have edited the intro to the Shimon Peres article for other reasons, but have not added that he is Vice PM due to the confusion, and have also not added Deputy PM to the Amir Peretz article though I did update it to reflect that he is now Defense Minister. Anyone have any suggestions? Was there a change between when Ehud Olmert announced the ministers-designate (the Haaretz photo thing was on the web BEFORE the swearing-in) and when the actual installation took place? 6SJ7 17:44, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Continuing update
I have added some information from the Knesset web site stating that these are not official positions but rather honorary titles. I also added the fact that each Vice or Deputy PM also holds a "real" Cabinet position. I also think it would be reasonable to state that these titles are often given either to denote someone's high rank within the leading party, or as a "consolation prize" or to the leader of a significant but still junior faction within the coalition. The first reason would explain Tzipi Livni; the second Shaul Mofaz; and the third Amir Peretz and the leader of Shas. However, that might be considered "original research" on my part and I do not have time now to find an article saying this, if there is one. I also have done some updating to further reflect the installation of the 31st Government, but I am not sure what to do about the information regarding the 30th Government. My thought was to add the two titles to the first sentence (including the Hebrew), then re-order the whole article by putting the quote about them being honorary titles, then the new information on the 31st Gov't followed by the now-historical information on the 30th Gov't. Any objections? 6SJ7 13:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I have now discovered that there are at least three different official versions of who holds what title (as between Livni and Peres), and there may actually now be a title between Prime Minister and Vice Prime Minister, namely "Acting Prime Minister," held by Livni. This title may simply be a higher rank of Vice Prime Minister.  See more complete discussion and sources at Talk:Cabinet of Israel.  6SJ7 17:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I have now edited this article to reflect the differences among sources, and have made corresponding edits to Tzipi Livni, Shimon Peres and Cabinet of Israel. 6SJ7 01:35, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Issues
The new edits to this page seem to create some issues. One that I am sure needs to be fixed, but do not have time to look up and write up the exact facts right now, is the implication that Shimon Peres was Vice Premier (or Vice Prime Minister, or Second Vice Prime Minister, whatever the correct title actually turns out to be) continuously from Labor's entry into the government of Ariel Sharon in early 2005, through the present time. That is not the case. Peres resigned from the government along with the rest of the Labor ministers in November of 2005. In fact, sometime after that, at the time when he decided to run with the Kadima Party, Peres resigned from the Knesset altogether. (This was apparently required by Israeli law in order for him to switch parties.) He re-entered the Knesset as a result of the election in March, and was then installed as Vice Premier, Vice Prime Minister or Second Vice Prime Minister (depending on which source you believe) in May along with the rest of the new Cabinet. As I said, this article needs other work as well. One thing it needs is a consensus as to what the Hebrew words mean, something that I cannot help with. 6SJ7 14:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Vice Prime Minister & Vice Premier ?
Aren't these the same thing? Prime Minister & Premier are the same (just the latter a short-hand version of the former), so why not Vice Prime Minister & Vice Premier? There's still quite a bit of confusion about this article. GoodDay 22:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There is indeed confusion, which I and others have tried to clear up several times since the new government was installed in May. (See edit history and earlier sections of this talk page.)  The confusion is in (and between) the sources themselves.  There is at least one page on the official Israeli government web site that gives Vice Prime Minister as the title for Tzipi Livni and Vice Premier for Shimon Peres.  There are other pages, and sources outside the official site, that variously give Livni's title as Acting Prime Minister and First Vice Prime Minister, and Peres' title as Vice Prime Minister and Second Vice Prime Minister.  The issue seems to be that different people (even within the government's own web site staff) translate the original Hebrew terms into English differently.  This may be explained by the fact that in this context, "Vice" means exactly the same thing as "Acting," it is just a word borrowed from a different language; same thing with "Prime Minister" and "Premier."  I would love to see this cleared up definitively, because this confusion affects not only this article, but those on Livni and Peres (and possibly other articles) as well.  6SJ7 02:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "Vice" and "deputy" mean essentially the same thing, but "acting" means something significantly different, and I can't see how that would apply to Livni. (OTOH, Olmert was for several months "acting prime minister", and perhaps the same terminology was used for both in Hebrew?)  "First Vice" seems tortuous but logical, and a distinction between "Vice" and "Deputy" strained, but not without linguistic precedent.  "Premier" vs "Prime Minister" is really stretching things.  OTOH, I did recently hear of a UK police officer whose rank was given as "Acting Deputy Assistant Chief Constable", which doesn't even have tortuous translation as an excuse.  Alai 16:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually the literal translation of the Latin word "Vice" is "in place of." The word has obviously taken on an additional meaning, of "deputy", and in some usages the implication that the vice president (for example) will act in place of the president no longer applies.  (See Vice president for an example of confusion between the two usages.)  It might be argued that the Vice President of the United States is really more of an example of the original meaning ("in place of") than the newer meaning ("deputy") because the V.P. has no specifically designated executive powers (and in fact the V.P.'s one specifically designated function, other than to act "in place of" the president, is the legislative function of presiding over the Senate.)  So where does this leave us regarding "deputy" executive positions in Israel?  I think the problem lies, quite frankly, with whoever translates official Israeli government documents from Hebrew into English, specifically those appearing on the English-language government web site.  As I noted above, many months ago, in some places it refers to Tzipi Livni as "Acting Prime Minster" and in some as "Vice Prime Minister."  I am presuming that there is a single Hebrew term in use here, and that one person translates it as "Acting" (in the sense that the office-holder would act as PM in case of a vacancy, whereas most English speakers would use "Acting" only when the vacancy has occurred and the person is acting in that capacity) while another translates it as "Vice".  To make it even more complicated, in the Israeli context "vice" cannot mean "deputy" because there already is a position "Deputy Prime Minister" which is indisputably lower in rank than Vice Prime Minister.  So, what to do?  Maybe Israel's English-language webmaster reads Wikipedia and can come here and help us out?   6SJ7 22:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well yes, etymologically that's the derivation of both "vice" and "deputy", though not necessarily the sense they're typically used in at present. But that's still not quite the same as "acting", or as you say, not how acting would generally be used.  Just to confuse matters, this ref seems suggest the roles are somehow separate: "Not to be undone or overrun, Olmert was subsequently given a sweetener by Sharon: the title of deputy prime minister, and acting prime minister."  So perhaps the intention is indeed to convey the sense of "hier apparent" (or constitutional successor?), though if so it doesn't seem well-chosen to do so.  But far be it for me to second-guess that usage (if it is indeed the usual one);  we should just document whatever use there is of the various terms, and if possible explain the derivation and literal meaning of the Hebrew terminology.  Alai 05:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Move suggestion
I suggest that this be moved to Deputy leaders of Israel. The present title makes "Deputy Leader of Israel" sound like a proper government post. -- Thesocialistesq/M.Lesocialiste 00:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll go ahead with this if there's no objection. -- Thesocialistesq/M.Lesocialiste 00:16, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Acting Prime Minister?
Memaleh Makom Rosh-HaMemshalah is incorrectly charecterised as 'Acting Prime Minister'. In fact, 'Acting Prime Minister' (Rosh HaMemshalah BaFoal) is a term reserved for the person who holds the office of prime minister for an interim period, whenever a prime minister has resigned or passed away, and until such time as a new prime minister shall be confirmed by the Knesset. Such a situation arose after the assasination of Yitzhak Rabin in November 1995, after which Shimon Peres became acting prime minister, before being confirmed as Prime Minister by the Knesset. He became Acting Prime Minister by virtue of having occupied the position of Memaleh Makom Rosh-HaMemshalah. A better translation of Memaleh Makom Rosh-HaMemshalah would be: First Deputy Prime Minister. RCSB 20:12, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually "Acting Prime Minister" is the correct title. I know it seems confusing (given that they are not actually acting Prime Minister until the PM is incapacitated), but this is how Israeli government websites refer to the position (see the Knesset one here). Number   5  7  08:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, so Livni isn't acting in the stead of Olmert? Therequiembellishere 18:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No, but she is his designated replacement should he be incapacitated. Number   5  7  18:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Acting (to act in place of) is a definition of Deputy & Vice. Thuse she's either Deputy Prime Minister or Vice Prime Minister. GoodDay 22:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC) :::::Livni has sources describing her as Vice Prime Minister yet she may assume an ailling Olmert's PM duties, the way Olmert had assumed Sharon's PM duties (before becoming PM himself). Yet, Olmert was then Deputy Prime Minister. My goodness, the article is mixed up & confusing. GoodDay 23:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Vice Prime Minister
The article doesn't explain what a Vice Premier is, only when it was founded and the people who have had this role. Can someone elaborate? Gbuch (talk) 05:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Article title
For goodness sake. Can't we come up with a better article title then the current Deputy of the Prime Minister of Israel? PS - The 'current' title was a result of a unilateral change (on June 14, 2021) by, without benefit of an RM. GoodDay (talk) 04:21, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 4 July 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:42, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Deputy of the Prime Minister of Israel → Deputy leaders of Israel – There's no such office title, that I'm aware of & the editor ( @Panam2014: ) who unilaterally moved it in 2021 & then reverted back to that move in 2022, appears to refuse to discuss the matter.&#32;GoodDay (talk) 13:54, 1 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. >>> Extorc . talk  12:48, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). Polyamorph (talk) 20:10, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Content immediately below copied from WP:RM/TR:


 * Not disagreeing, but this doesn't sound uncontroversial so probably warrants a full RM. -Kj cheetham (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
 * This should have an RM discussion. The proposed title seems vague, and the proposer acknowledges some past controversy over the title. —&#8288;&#8202;&#8288;BarrelProof (talk) 17:11, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. GordonGlottal (talk) 01:37, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose, 'Deputy leaders of Israel' of is too vague and not the WP:COMMONNAME, but I propose tidying the title of this article to Deputy Prime Minister of Israel. Further, this translated from the lead of the parallel article on Hebrew wiki may be of interest: (perhaps to better define the lead of this article):
 * The Deputy Prime Minister is a symbolic title in the Israeli government, usually given to the leaders of the coalition partners' factions since 1952. The position is defined in section 5 (e) of the Basic Law: The Government, which stipulates "a minister can be deputy prime minister". The "Deputy Prime Minister" has no statutory power, [other than a position in the cabinet and their ministerial post] so there is no limit to the number of Deputy Prime Ministers, unlike the Alternate Prime Minister, an office created in 2020, of whom there can be only one. --Chefallen (talk) 02:15, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Chefallen Right, but this English page is about that title and Designated Acting Prime Minister, Vice Prime Minister, and Alternate Prime Minister. I guess one option would be just break the page up but right now that doesn't describe this page. GordonGlottal (talk) 02:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There is already another article for Alternate Prime Minister. The role of Designated Acting Prime Minister (and Acting Prime Minister) is just a contingency in the event the Prime Minster is incapacitated or otherwise unable to perform their duties. It would be a subsection of the Prime Minister of Israel article. As far as I can tell, Vice Prime Minister was a one-time honorific given to Shimon Peres and was not defined in law or by any binding coalition agreement. So this article could just be cleaned up to focus on the Deputy Prime Minister(s) and the information abut the other roles moved to their respective more relevant articles Chefallen (talk) 02:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't agree that Vice Prime Minister and Designated Acting Prime Minister should just be removed or incorporated into Prime Minister. There were other VPMs btw, read the article. But if you want to split this into three articles and rename them, fine with me. GordonGlottal (talk) 02:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment - I would support Deputy Prime Minister of Israel as the article title. GoodDay (talk) 02:20, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't, as I just commented above. GordonGlottal (talk) 02:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I wish would join the discussion. He's the editor who insists on the current title. His refusal to communicate, is frustrating. GoodDay (talk) 02:30, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, at some point, if there is a consensus to change it and that editor won't engage, the change will be made and if they insist on reverting, the matter can be referred to an admin to put a stop to their disruptive editing.--Chefallen (talk) 02:50, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Support Deputy Prime Minister. we need article about Acting PM and VPM. Panam2014 (talk) 04:39, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not opposed to separating this article into three or more articles. For the moment, this article's title has to be changed. GoodDay (talk) 04:42, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

There are no deadlines here. If they're done both should be done simultaneously, as an agreed plan.GordonGlottal (talk) 11:30, 11 July 2022 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Split
the article should be split into threee Vice Prime Minister of Israel, Deputy Prime Minister of Israel and Acting Prime Minister of Israel (designated). Panam2014 (talk) 18:10, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Why not. The current page & its title is a mess. GoodDay (talk) 18:28, 29 January 2023 (UTC)