Talk:Der Freischütz/Archive 1

Synopsis
Synopsis from Melitz, 1921 (http://www.intac.com/~rfrone/operas/Books/Melitz_Complete/OGCG-02.htm#Freischutz) -- Dreamword 00:02 Feb 5, 2003 (UTC)

The English translation of Der Freischütz
In the article it is stated that "The Freeshooter" is the English translation of Der Freischütz. However, my piano teacher, who is fluent in German, says it translate into "The Sharpshooter". Is he correct or is it just something that's difficult to translate into English?


 * Grove gives 'Freeshooter'. Note the 'Freikügel' - the 'free bullet'. - Kleinzach 18:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Frei means free, in this case referring to the magic bullet. It is hard to translate, because it describes a mythical concept--a not very popular one at ut that. Padde 16:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * So the easy thing to do is to follow the established translation in Grove! - Kleinzach 16:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Freeshooter' works well in any case. In translating a word that doesn't have a common meaning anyway, it's actually appropriate to use an otherwise meaningless literal translation.  Those folks at Grove know what they're doing! Padde 23:02, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No! No! No! "Works well"? It doesn't work at all!
 * A "meaningless literal translation" is impossible, and if it weren't, it still wouldn't be appropriate.
 * 1. A translation shifts meaning into a target language; therefore if the result is meaningless, translation has not occurred.
 * 2. A "literal translation" is generally considered to be word-for-word. If you use words that don't exist, like "free-shooter", you haven't even produced a word-for-word translation.
 * 3. If by "literal" you mean "letter for letter", then the only thing you'd have to change would be the ü, which becomes ue in English.
 * 4. Let's say that in spite of all these objections you write "free-shooter". Your English-speaking reader gains nothing by it, because he's never heard of such a thing and it's not in any dictionary. So you might as well leave the original."
 * 5. If it means "marksman", say that a literal translation would be "The Marksman".
 * Wegesrand 15:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Doch, doch:
 * 1. Freischütz doesn't really mean anything in German either, outside this folklore context, which I'm not sure is even that well known.  In any case, the word is not in daily parlance.  Thus a translation that has meaning only in the folklore context is appropriate.
 * 2. In German, two words are combined to make one word.  Frei means free, Schütz means shooter.  If you want to be picky, you can call it "The Free Shooter" as opposed to "The Free-shooter," but I'm sure you realize that would be even more confusing, because "Free Shooter" actually has a few potential meanings, none of which are the intended meaning.
 * 3. What?
 * 4. In the opera, the peasants don't know what a Freikugel is until it is explained to them.  But they know what frei means, and they know what Kugel is.  This is a lot more helpful to them than if they had heard "Freebullet," which is made of words in a tongue they do not understand.
 * Much is gained by the reader of "Free-shooter," because he knows that there is a shooter involved, but that there is something unusual about the shooter that requires further explanation. Which is precisely the situation.
 * 5. It does not mean "marksman" at all.  It means someone shooting a free-bullet, which is a bullet directed by Satan after firing off six magic bullets that always hit their target.  Hence there is no actual translation, so any translation will have to either be somewhat nonsense, or else deceptive.  Nonsense is quite appropriate, since it is also somewhat nonsense in the German.
 * Padde 04:30, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

If it helps, Scholes translates it as "The Marksman" Adam Cuerden talk 14:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This is really a mistranslation because the title refers to the 'Freikügel' - the 'free bullet'. Padde's explanation above is accurate in my opinion. - Kleinzach 16:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. But it's probably as functional as any can be in English. I don't think we should be interrupting the opening sentence for a long digression: Let's give a rough-and-ready translation, and explain it - using Padde's words by all means - later. Adam Cuerden talk 19:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * 'The Freeshooter' does fit the ('let's give a rough-and-ready translation') bill - which is why it's been the preferred English title for so long. 'The Marksman' is simply a mistranslation. To be brutally frank etc. it shouldn't be there. - Kleinzach 20:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Point. Though I suppose it translates the fully translatable half. Weel, I dunno. It might be worth having both since we don't use the word Freikügel or a literal translation later, or revising the synopsis to take this into account. It MAY be useful to have a less accurate but fullly comprehensible term, but, I dunno. Adam Cuerden talk 21:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I hate having flu. Comprehensible answer tomorrow. Adam Cuerden talk 21:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Sentence about opera being 'Seldom revived'
In the introduction it says:

Although today the work is seldom revived outside of Germany (and even there, rarely), it survives as a concert piece with its overture and the very popular "Huntmen's Chorus" ("with Princely enjoyment and manly employment ...").

In my view this is completely inaccurate. The work remains popular in Germany and in Britain it is performed from time to time. So I am deleting it. - Kleinzach 18:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's quite accurate to say that it is seldom performed outside of Germany. "From time to time" is seldom, I would think. Anyone know of a source containing actual figures of how often operas are performed? - Nunh-huh 18:36, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It has been performed about 140 times at Covent Garden. That's my definition of 'from time to time'. - Kleinzach 20:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Over how long a time? (i.e., 140 times in 5 years, 20 years, etc.) - Nunh-huh 03:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Was that sarcastic?
 * No.
 * Let me assume your question was asked in good faith.
 * But you haven't.
 * No opera house performs the same work 140 times in 5 years or even in 20 years. When I wrote it had been performed about 140 times at Covent Garden, that's exactly what I meant. Period.
 * Yes, well, a numerator without a denominator is useless for calculating frequency.
 * More facts: the opera is being produced 13 times in 4 countries during 2005-2006. Next time can you do your own checking? I have other things to do. - Kleinzach 12:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Try to be civil. I asked a legitimate question. (You didn't answer it, exactly, but I gather you meant that Covent Garden, either since its first theatre (1732) or the opening of its third theatre (1858) has performed Der Freischütz 140 times. Let's call that 270 years, so that's an average of 1 performance every two years. And if you don't want to check, you needn't. I asked generally, and there will be plenty of people here who want to participate, and who will be willing to actually point to resources.- Nunh-huh 15:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have reverted your sentence about there being 13 performances during 2006-2006. That was incorrect. As I told you there are 13 productions not performances. Please desist from any further editing that is not based on real information. - Kleinzach 16:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Image
I've added an image from the German Wikipedia. Someone want to confirm my belief that it's the opening scene? I can't see what else it can be, particularly as the file info says it shows Max and Kilian.

Also, is it worth mentioning the horrors the Victorians did to the names of characters in translation? (Into English and Italian) Weird stuff, like Max becoming, if I recall correctly, Rinaldo, and other such things. Adam Cuerden talk 11:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It certainly looks like the opening scene. The only other candidate I can think of is the finale. By the way, the caption for the sheet music image is clearly wrong. There is no way anyone could have published Freischuetz extracts in 1800! I don't know about the Victorian renaming of the characters. There were certainly plenty of parodies of this work in Britain. There are also plenty of literary references: there's one to Samiel in Sheridan Le Fanu's "Uncle Silas", IIRC. Someone needs to get hold of John Warrack's biography of Weber. I'll try to get myself a copy by February, if possible. --Folantin 12:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, and the finale would require other charaters to be there who aren't, so must be the opening. As for the 1800 date: Possibly 1900? Adam Cuerden talk 14:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a copy of a Victorian score. The names vary ridiculously between the three languages. They also ive the most-jaw-cracking added words to replace the "la"s in the huntsmen's song - sure, "Hark! Follow!" Works fine in the tenor, but it leads to a nightmare in the bass. Adam Cuerden talk 12:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Names of songs
Why are the song names given in translation, and which translation is it? Adam Cuerden talk 03:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If you are referring to the synopsis it dates back to 2003! Who knows where it came from! -- Kleinzach 04:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeep. This article needs an overhaul. Might see about doing that after my father heads back home next month. Adam Cuerden talk 04:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Your local music library almost certainly has a copy. It's a terrific opera and it would be great if you had time to sit down with the libretto and write a new synopsis with German titles for the arias. -- Kleinzach 04:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I own a score. Bit weird, though: It's English, German, and Italian in one score (comes from that weird time when English opera houses translted everything into Italian - I have a newspaper clipping about one such translation I must quote sometime for the Opera article) Just never quite got around to doing anything about this. Adam Cuerden talk 05:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Might be better to use a modern non-singing translation. -- Kleinzach 01:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, come to think of that, there's one of those with the CD set I have. So, that probably works. Adam Cuerden talk 04:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)