Talk:Dera Sacha Sauda/Archive 1

DERA SACHA SAUDA definition
This page is soon going to become a virtual battle ground for people inciting hatred in the name of faith. please some responsible person moderate the editing — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raven toor (talk • contribs) 13:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality
The article has been marked with a POV tag for quite some time; however many of the POV complaints listed above refer to either a much older version of the article or to comments left on this talk page. Can editors please list specific POV issues they have with this article so that those can be corrected ? Thanks. Abecedare 20:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That simply put means negative references should not be removed

Here are some of the sources in the article that use the name "Dera Sacha Sauda" for the organization: Google news provides a few hundred other citations. Abecedare 17:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The organization's own website
 * Sach Newsletter and information website —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.226.13.151 (talk) 11:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * BBC
 * Frontline magazine
 * Guiness world records
 * The Hindu newspaper
 * IBN news
 * NDTV news
 * The Independent, UK
 * The Times of India

The article ambitiously attempts to write about "Dera Sacha Sauda" whose URL is given above. Naturally the contents therein to be taken as authentic and others do not have the right to impose their own 'definitions', 'opinions' etc for those matters. Anyone is free to give opinions as per their perceptions. Let us agree to one point that here we are not expressing our "opinion", rather we are trying to make an authentic writeup on this topic. There are various aspects of it, first and foremost is the spiritual upliftment of each individual, then concentrating on social evils, like female foeticides, orphans, drug addiction, and then gearing towards serving the entire humankind (or rather all living beings) in difficult and trying times such as natural calamities, old age problems, schooling for the poor and those who are cut from the main stream society to bring them into normal life cycle with personal hygiene, care and all other relevant aspects. Therefore, the contents under the above title (of criticism etc) need to be removed from this article. For the same reason the references to various news channels, and "sting" operations need to be totally removed because that is not authentic information in any sense of the term. As the time progresses, and the facts and decisions come along then suitable additions or amendments to the article can then be made.1ofU (talk) 14:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)1ofU

Can you mention the negatives aswell such as rape of women followers and the head of the organization's criminal record and claims to live life of hardwork but instead being driven around in mercedes benz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoravar (talk • contribs) 20:06, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Resolving edit war
I tried to do the same thing on this page that I was doing on Ram Rahim Singh. It had too much POV and was not really wikipedia material and I tried to fix that. I backed up my edits with sources and included the court cases this organization was involved in. I also retained things like charity work. I really don't see how my edits can be seen as vandalism, so please discuss the issues here.--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 20:55, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

In those court cases, only the current leader of organization is accused since 2008. Even if he will find guilty by courts, only he will be punished; court will not ban the organisation. So, You can not involve organization in these cases with your own intentions. A section containing info of court cases and other controversies already exists in article titled "Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh" who is current leader of DSS. OO7vikasinsan (talk) 17:43, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Interesting sources on community tension, Dalit issues, etc.
Ran across a few sources which had been cited in the Ram Rahim Singh article as evidence of a "conspiracy". However, setting aside the POV presentation, they have some truly interesting content on DSS, community tensions, appeals to Dalits, etc. Presenting here for further reading to possibly add good citations to this article: MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:50, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Certainly helpful articles, Please look up the following article. * This is written by Rahul Singh, a senior journalist and the son of the famous Khushwant Singh. It is interesting to note that the Sikh hardliners have gone hammer and tong against them only because the SGPC is actually controlled by political parties.And the hiatus between their claims of social work and the serious allegations against needs to be analysed. (Newston (talk) 11:46, 2 April 2011 (UTC)).

Improve section "Green S Welfare Force"
The current section is highly POV, and has no secondary sources. A quick Google search notes several cases of them being mentioned in major Indian meida (like so ), so it shouldn't be hard to improve that section. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:30, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Introduced POV on "conspiracy" needs to be corrected
Recent edits have added some very important information regarding several judicial cases, which is to be commended. However, same author has also introduced POV with the use of terms like "conspiracy", "trap planner/trickster", etc. Such terms do not appear to be used in the sources, so I argue they should be removed, and the facts should basically state something "the governement of XYZ concluded that the accusations were unfounded and that witnesses had been bribed to testify, and all charges were dropped."

Again, it was a very grievous lacking not to have the conclusion which cleared Singh or his coworkers. However, we should not sway the "pendulum of bias" too far in the opposite direction and begin emotionally attackings those who (according to government findings) fabricated cases against him. MatthewVanitas (talk) 16:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, now you're going way too far; you're removing accusations of land grabs, and replacing them with cites to DSS blogs. That is truly over the line. Please refrain from this POV pushing and use of primary sources. MatthewVanitas (talk) 23:25, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

This article has become propoganda for DSS,and is written with mostly DSS blogs as citation or no citation at all.Also,the unadulterated petrol pump,biscuits etc has been writtenin bold and should not be written so. Zoravar (talk) 20:05, 7 September 2011 (UTC) 19:33, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the catches on some of the POV-pushing, but I think now that you've cleaned those, the overall article is at least decently neutral, and has extensive citations to mainstream newspapers. I had a better handle on keeping their POV out before, but someone snuck in a month or two back and restored some of the POV content. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:51, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Also,a lot of this needs verification other then Dera Sacha Sauda articles .Newspapers,goverment organizations etc would also report on the humantarian activites of this organisation.Currently removing content without verification. Zoravar (talk) 20:07, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The word controversial needs to be added for the definition. http://ibnlive.in.com/news/dera-sacha-sauda-sect-refuses-to-back-any-party/91776-37.html Zoravar (talk) 06:34, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Removed unsourced content and added controversial to the definition as per the source.Zoravar (talk) 09:38, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Source no. 32 is www.oceanofweb.com,which has been accepted as a POV source on the Ram Rahim Singh page.Hence I will be deleting the source along with the material it supportsZoravar (talk) 08:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Reverted over-trimming of controversies
I have reverted these diffs, with the exception of trimming "controversial" for the moment as the sourcing was weak. Several paragraphs on the "Guru attire controversy", the "Tehelka expose", etc. were removed and replaced with But Later all the blames or cases filed against Dera Sacha Sauda or Saint Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh Insan were proved baseless after the investigation report submitted by CBI to the Hon'ble Court of Law as per the Indian Law. First off, we don't need to refer to Ram Rahim Singh by a plethora of titles/honorifics (outside of mentioning in his own article that such honorifics have been applied to him). Further, though we have cites on individual clearings of charges (which are already in the article), "all" is quite a strong word and would need some serious sourcing. Further, whether he was charged or not (and in the Guru attire issue it was on technical grounds as the case was filed wrong), the incident provoked riots and was quite newsworthy. I do not think that these incidents should be removed, as it smacks of whitewashing. Yes, definitely we should include cites on anything he's been cleared of (provided cites are from RSs and not from partisan blogs), but we shouldn't conceal the controversy entirely. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:59, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Honestly this page needs to be made semi-protected or else itll keep getting spammed with propoganda. Also,the reason given for removing controversial by someone(not you,someone else who reverted it)was that he was cleared of charges.Being controversial has nothing to do with being guilty.Also here are some other references that refer to the dera as a controversial sect. http://punjabnewsline.com/content/controversial-deras-add-fuel-punjab-fire http://ibnlive.in.com/news/dera-sacha-sauda-sect-refuses-to-back-any-party/91776-37.html http://www.navapanga.com/2011/04/04/dera-sacha-sauda-takht-to-take-notice-of-amarinder%E2%80%99s-visit-sp-sharma-and-chander-parkashtns/ http://berthoalain.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/emeutes-en-haryana-au-penjab-indien-fevrier-2010/ http://www.deccanherald.com/content/55385/dera-men-go-rampage.html http://www.newsleaks.in/nothing-wrong-in-seeking-votes-from-sects-says-amarinder-singh/ http://www.hindu.com/2011/01/04/stories/2011010450990500.htm

Out of these,Hindu is a respected newspaper as is Deccan Herald.Ibn live is also a pan India news channel and punjabnewsline gives punjab specific news.These are sold enough sources to add controversial to the sect. Also,the controversey section needs to be expanded back to its older state.Regards.Zoravar (talk) 20:49, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this page needs to be semi protected. I also agree with reverting by MatthewVanitas. All court cases and controversies are related to current leader of organization as I mention in other sections of talk page in detail. So it is inappropriate to make a section of controversies or court cases etc.. Now article is in good condition and only contains original and required info. Thanks MatthewVanitas again. The user Zoravar is trying to add only negatives according to me. OO7vikasinsan (talk) 17:56, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Article vandalism
Someone has been adding pov sources such as the dera sacha sauda blog-amar ujala newspaper paste and oceanofweb.com.I'm removing the sources immediately.Also,this page should be made sem-protected as it is becoming pro-dera again.Zoravar (talk) 16:14, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Zoravar that this page should be semi-protected. As there are huge followers of this organisation and also a number of haters. So chances of vandalism is there. OO7vikasinsan (talk) 17:36, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Reverting to October 2011 version
Again, editors are placing an undue pro-DSS slant in the article. Yes, I do agree that anti-DSS editors have inappropriately edited, but this does not justify pushing the article into an unduly pro-DSS angle.

Listing here some of the inappropriately POV phrasing reverted:


 * More than forty million people around the world from all religions, cast and creed are faithful followers of the organization. - ALL religions? Can that be objectively backed up? Plus, for something as large and specific as "40 million" we need a clearer source than DSS's own claim. Further, in this context "faithful" is a POV term, since objectively some may be far more involved than others.
 * to encourage spiritual awakening among the masses, to uplift humanity, and to create a better world. HE hailed from Baluchistan, part of present-day Pakistan. With devotion and hard work, Maharaj Ji transmuted the barren land of Sirsa into a spiritual garden and imparted the glorious method of meditation to HIS followers. The slogan “Dhan Dhan Satguru Tera Hi Asra,” which Dera’s devotees chant at the Ashram, elucidates the kindness of God Almighty as our saviour. His Excellency Guruji preached about following the path of truth, humanity, and hard work - Patently over-the-top POV speech. These are opinions, not facts, and in unduly flowery language, and uses conventions "HE" which are not neutral.
 * Principles of Dera Sacha Sauda: This whole section was just a layout of DSS platforms, but presented as fact vice claim, and honestly so vague that a third-party description would have been far more enlightening.
 * Version also had undue use of "Saint" and "Ji". While it is worth noting that his followers use such honorifics, it is unnecessary and inappropriate to use them throughout the article.
 * Controversies: I agree that in the past the article gave too much emphasis to the Tehelka expose. However, the current version has Times, Tribune, and Express citations in addition. Though an editor has opined that these are insignificant because charges were dropped, these were still genuine charges filed in court, reported on by major media, and the article clearly notes which/when charges were dropped. Pending a clearer argument for deletion, I have re-included them.

Hope this clarifies my concern. To those disliking these edits, I look forward to your input. For those feeling these edits do not give a favourable-enough portrayal of DSS, I submit that a factual, objective Wiki page will reflect better upon DSS to a global audience than will a partisan piece of lower credibility. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:23, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

HOnestly this current article looks like a copy-paste from the Dera's website and it does need to be reverted to the October version.Zoravar (talk) 15:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Strongly agree with MatthewVanitas. This version is far better and more close to original thing as it contains better citations from previous version. Court cases and controversies are connected with only head of organisation. Current leader of DSS is still accused in various cases since 2008. Even if court decisions will come against him, only that man will be punished; not the organisation. I also agree on topic that words like "Saint" and "Ji" are only to give respect by followers and I respect feelings of them. But it is innappropriate to use these words on this platform as such words only make article lengthy. I also know that all info in terms of Mastana Maharaj, Baluchisatan, salogan, barren land etc. are true but no cite sources are there because these things occurred in the year 1948, so we can never get citation about all these facts. At last this version is far better. But a seprate section should be there containing a list of branches of DSS in various states of India.OO7vikasinsan (talk) 17:32, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

You can't simply delete "cleared" cases
We've had repeated attempts to remove the mentions of the rape and murder court cases, of which Singh was cleared of charges. These issues were extensively covered in media, scholarly books on DSS frequently mention them, and further as I understand it Wikipedia policy certainly allows that such things be covered, provided, as we do here, that we also note the ultimate outcome of the trial. Note for example American president Bill Clinton: he was not convicted of accusations of financial impropriety in the Whitewater controversy, but his own article discusses the issue.

Frankly, we just have too many people here trying to puff up DSS and Singh with honorifics and glowing praise, while attacking any mention of negative behaviours. Your edits must be grounded in proper sourcing and WP:NPOV; this article does not exist to simply be a propaganda site for or against DSS, but a factual representation. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:15, 22 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, been about 24 hours and no defence heard, so reverting back. Oh, and this just gives neutral editors all the more reasons to apply further diligence to see what other issues are being censored by POV editors. I understand that the DSS relationship with both the Sikhs and the Dalit communities is pretty complicated and interesting (similar to the issue the Ravidassia have, where they were Chamar Sikhs who split from the main body???). So I'm reverting and will continue to expand the article; those seeking to make this a puff-piece are simply in the wrong by Wikipedia standards. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Revert Cleanliness Earth Campaign details
Revert the content of new section Cleanliness Earth Campaign as it was desired. And Qwyrxian wikipedia has listed each stop of the musical tour of Britney Spears#Tours. All the nine places listed there were not a stops in the tour, they all are different from each other. Each of the nine places have their different details and if i write those details then this will turn into a DSS Website. but without these details this will be wiki without encyclopedic overview. (Arora.arsh26 (talk) 08:44, 12 August 2012 (UTC))


 * I don't think that anyone has problem with these changes and also these changes corresponds the encyclopedic overview.(Arora.arsh26 (talk) 09:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC))
 * Then the Britney Spears article is wrong; it's routinely reverted on other musician's articles (though, perhaps for some reason, Spears is different; I try not to pay attention to her). Those details are completely inappropriate here. How does it possibly help the reader understand what DSS by knowing the cities that they happened to do some sort of environmental campaign in?  More importantly, how could the dates possibly matter? Think about the purpose of a WP article: to provide a broad overview of what makes a person/group/thing/idea notable. It's not to to list every possible detail about them. The relevant policy is WP:NOT, which limits the sorts of information our articles should cover. I might be will to support a compromise that simply listed the names of the cities in a single sentence (not a table), and that used as few references as possible (no more than one per city).

Why not a table?? A table is easier to read and Dates are specific as on a specified date the campaign happened. I understand about few references but i didn't found any logic to remove Table. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arora.arsh26 (talk • contribs) 13:12, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

More of Advertisement than Reality
The above article seems to reflect more of advertisement than neutral. Need to add section related to court cases, political affiliation, etc. as well. Ankitbjain (talk) 05:34, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2017
There is vandalism on the page and that needs to be edited. Appwizard (talk) 11:12, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Appwizard what is the text that should be removed and what is the text that should replace it?SovalValtos (talk) 11:21, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Sparkling Pessimist   Scream at me!  11:34, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

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Funding
The funding section of this article states that "The Dera Sacha Sauda...operates a supermarket, a petrol pump, a biscuit factory, a restaurant, and a boating lake. These businesses, managed by its "sadhus," are said to be for the benefit of its devotees." But in reality none of the mentioned businesses are named after the organisation. These are owned by individuals who are followers of this cult. Moreover, the only reference for this claim is not openly available to all. Amratjeet Singh Insan (talk) 04:52, 3 April 2021 (UTC)