Talk:Derek Bentley/Archive 1

Joint enterprise
I've added a section on joint enterprise. I've also removed two lines on manslaughter since they were applicable to Craig rather than Bentley. Anecdota

NPOV check
Nominated it for this because I think it is from one persons point of view. Any edits are mostly welcome. Please leave a comment below. Thanks, 15:08, 22 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Although the article is not of the highest quality, I don't think it seems terribly biased, from a quick look. Could you please point to specific examples? EldKatt (Talk) 17:35, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I suggest that the check be allowed to run for another month. The article does focus too much on Lord Goddard- it should also make a reference to the career of the Home Secretary who refused clemency and another to the question of competence to stand trial. Anecdota

I have read a alleged quote from Lord Goddard, although I cannot now locate it, saying that Bentley was convicted because he helped prepare the ammunition for the gun.

However, even assuming that this was the case it is quite clear that, even if Bentley was guilty, he should not have been executed because of his mental state.


 * I've added the missing references. I've also removed the NPOV, which was three months old.  It would have been easier to discuss specific objections by a named contributor. Anecdota

Standard of this article
I think this article is very biased and inaccurate. No mention is made of the weapon - a spike on a knuckleduster - that Bentley was carrying. As to the recent Court of Appeal hearing, it should be clear that the Court did NOT clear Bentley. It set aside the conviction on the basis that the trial had been unfair. That is NOT unprecedented - it happens ALL THE TIME - nor could it be described as 'damning' any more than any other successful appeal. If Bentley was still alive, he'd have been retried.

Policing Wikipedia in Britain
On the night that I removed this NPOV flag four uniformed police officers were dispatched to my home in Herefordshire. I spoke to them at about one in the morning. They claimed that they had received a report of a break-in from a passer-by.

The divisional commander of police in Herefordshire is Kevin Bentley who was appointed to the post in March 2004. He shares his interest in antiques with a superior, the Deputy Chief Constable of West Mercia Police, Ian Arundale, promoted in October 2005 to replace Alan Bridge.

Arundale told Jane's Police Review Magazine in February 2004 "What we would like in the future is a Star Trek-style phaser that, perfectly safely, temporarily switches someone's brain off so that officers move in", when West Mercia were introducing the taser, though that may not have been his only motive.

He is also responsible for West Mercia's Legal Services and their response to the reorganisation of the police in England and Wales. West Mercia are attempting to remain a separate entity.

He remains Chairman of the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) Firearms Working Group. The NPOV flag was placed on September 22nd 2005 by an anonymous user. The most notorious police killing of an unarmed victim before that of Jean Charles de Menezes on July 22nd 2005 was that of Harry Stanley, on September 22nd 1999, which may have been resolved in October 2005 by the Crown Prosecution Service's refusal to press charges against the officers involved. Stanley was shot dead after an anonymous report from a public house identified him as an Irish terrorist.

I have previously written about the Labour government's attempt to police the internet using the Dunblane massacre. Blair has been willing to appoint Ian Blair Commissioner of Metropolitan Police despite the police killing of Blair Peach during the 1979 election, a death which followed the INLA murder of Margaret Thatcher's political strategist Airey Neave in the Commons car park two days after the election was forced. The gradual introduction of cameras into British courts makes this echo extremely dubious. The police have also become involved in lobbying the British public during the 2005 election and in writing to MPs before a vote. However, no-one living in a democracy expects an intimidation campaign to be directed against them for revising a free internet encyclopedia.

I do not wish to involve Wikipedia in legal action, nor do I wish to be accused of supporting current British policing methods by deliberate omissions. The murder of PC Miles became a sensitive political issue and I wanted the article to make a short mention of this. However, I assume that the purpose of a democratic discussion of current affairs is to prevent abuses. I have written to helpdesk-l@wikimedia.org to ask for help in resolving any legal issue, given that reverts would leave my edits visible. Anecdota

Arundale 'Star Trek' article, as reported by The Guardian
 * Kevin Bentley
 * Ian Arundale
 * 
 * Why don't you take this paranoid self-aggrandisement to myspace? NicM 00:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC).
 * Surely a place can be made on WP for theories citing, in their own support, that so-and-so "shares his interest in antiques with a superior". EEng (talk) 15:02, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Original
Craig and Bentley had originally intended to steal from a shop, but dropped this plan when they saw a light on in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.41.51.240 (talk) 14:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article is terrible. A case with so much detail and influence but only one cite? The tone is all over the place but never neutral. Seriously needs a bit of research and a good edit. NicM 00:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC).


 * Yes, it is. I've tried to do some editing but it needs a lot. Did you pitch in anything? Luzzy fogic (talk) 15:51, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Proposed move to Execution of Derek Bentley

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was moved to Derek Bentley case. Aervanath talks like a mover, but not a shaker 06:33, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I propose that this article is moved to Execution of Derek Bentley (or similar). This is due to a number of reasons mentioned in the pseudo-biography argument above – it is the case that should be covered (an article of Bentley is WP:BLP1E). Should this be moved, I feel a rewrite is in order to address the tone and reference issues; and to write from the POV (for example) of the legal case – not a Bentley biography. Thoughts? [ cycle~ ] (talk), 02:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment. How can an article about someone hanged for murder in 1953 contravene Biographies of living persons? Chrisieboy (talk) 02:23, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Whoops. I meant WP:BIO1E, which stands regardless of whether the subject is alive or not.  My point was that Bentley is not known aside from the case – it's the case that has the coverage/is controvertial, not the individual.  Thanks for pointing that out.  [ cycle~ ] (talk), 02:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like two events to me; anything, like the robbery, that results in a George Cross is notable. Compare John Dillinger. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:00, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think Execution of Derek Bentley is appropriate, as the execution is only one aspect of the case, especially if we compare the page to Timothy Evans and Ruth Ellis. That said, both Christopher Evans and Sidney Miles redirect here, but the problem is that there is no accepted generic term for the attempted robbery and its aftermath. Derek Bentley case would probably be the most appropriate compromise. Nick Cooper (talk) 11:42, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This, to some extent, seems like a pseudo-biography
Read WP:PSEUDO particularly, and to a lesser extent WP:COATRACK and WP:BLP1E and consider the following.

Little of the article is actually about Derek Bentley's life. All that we know about him is that he had a hard upbringing, had a level of mental retardation, and went into a warehouse with his friend with a gun telling his friend (ambiguously) to "let him have it" when the police officer was there, and was later executed for this. This is not an adequate biography of a person's life, and if that was all that he had done, he would fail WP:BIO.

Most of the article focuses on the coverage following these events, the posthumous pardon, and the reform of the death penalty laws in the United Kingdom. Derek Bentley is not notable as a person; his case and the coverage surrounding it following his death are notable.

Therefore I suggest the article be moved to "Derek Bentley case" or something similar with "Derek Bentley" as a redirect (in the style of other articles like Disappearance of Madeleine McCann, Murder of Damilola Taylor, Murder of Arlene Fraser), but I won't do that yet until someone else agrees.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 05:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I somewhat agree. The article does have too little about the man, but aside from the case the man is not notable. A bit more about him before the case would be nice, but POV and lack of cites are much more serious problems at the moment. I'm definitely opposed to making two articles out of this. NicM 00:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC).
 * I wasn't suggesting making two articles out of this. I was suggesting this page be moved to Derek Bentley case which would leave Derek Bentley as a redirect to that.-h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 07:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I would also agree that the article needs a little work. I didn't even realize this took place in England.  I spent half my time reading the article wondering where all these Lords came from.  Perhaps it is just that in America this person isn't really talked about.  Perhaps the article would also benefit from a little more information on the applicable British legal practices.  Did this case go against the normal legal practices of Britain in that time?  Without knowing a little more background, I can't really understand if he was wrongfully executed (it seems he was) or not.  Again, this is not something commonly discussed in America so I am a little confused as to what exactly happened here.Wilbury311 (talk) 17:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * He grew up with his parents, older sister and younger brother. After failing to prevent his execution, his parents campaigned, for the rest of their lives, to have his conviction quashed. Father died on 12 July 1974, mother on 10 October 1976, after which time his sister, Iris Bentley (1931-1997), took over the campaign. She felt the pardon was insufficient, so she pressed for a declaration that he was completely innocent, and, after Iris' death, her daughter took over the attempt to have him completely cleared. That didn't happen, but his conviction was set aside. Can someone expand on that information, and add it to the article? As it is a biographical article, details about his family should be included. Werdnawerdna (talk) 02:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Robbery/armed robbery
Why does the article, and several contributors in the talk page, refer to the original offence of armed robbery? This is incorrect. If it is stated in official paperwork, what are the reasons for it? Do we have references for this? G0ggy (talk) 08:43, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

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