Talk:Derek Williams (musician)/Archive 1

Notability
Dear @Onel5969. I see you previously flagged this article as 'Orphan', but since then, much work has been done to link from other articles that refer to the subject, with numerous citations to newspaper articles and other sources that name him directly, and others that can be easily verified. Have you drilled down to all these and checked them out? One example is his LGBT+ activism covered in the article on Virginia Chadwick. Apart from yours, there has been only one other contest as to copyvio, and that was reversed. The first two citations in the Derek Williams (musician) article are to full-page newspaper articles on the subject, with photographs of him. I have just now added four more citations, but note that my previous draft was rejected in part because of an excessive number of citations. Chrisdevelop (talk) 00:33, 31 March 2023 (UTC+10) Chrisdevelop (talk) 06:42, 31 March 2023 (AEDT)
 * Hi. I checked all the sources which were accessible to me.  Other than the first two, none are the type of in-depth coverage from independent, reliable, secondary sources needed to show notability.  Is there any way to gain access to those two newspaper articles?  Onel 5969  TT me 01:22, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There is. It'll take me a few days to put it all together and get back. Cheers, Chris. Chrisdevelop (talk) 15:06, 1 April 2023 (AEDT)


 * @Onel5969 The Sydney Morning Herald article can be found at 'Testing Time for School Gays' by Deborah Singerman. Note that anyone can access this free of charge and all the articles I adduced by signing up for 7 day free trial and then cancelling if they don't want to retain access. Since many articles are behind paywalls, there's little option but to do this. Just because a newspaper is protecting its copyright doesn't of course mean that the thing it reported didn't happen, and so this doesn't detract from the notability of the interviewee. Same goes for books that aren't yet fully digitised and uploaded to a free online database, so long as the ISBN, chapter etc. are cited.


 * How I researched this topic was to go to www.newspapers.com and search for 'Derek Williams'. I have uploaded to Flickr all the articles I found concering his LGBT+ activism - a section that was removed from my original draft by the editor who took over the task of creating this article. Perhaps that should be reinstated in the current article. You can find that deleted section still in my Sandbox. There you will also find copious references to books in which Derek Williams's activism is covered.


 * The Daily Post article I have also uploaded to Flickr. This and other articles are in the newspaper's archives. The article includes a photograph of him as conductor of the Waverly Randwick Philharmonic Orchestra and Choir.


 * Derek Williams also appeared at the Australian Senate as a speaker representing the Gay and Lesbian Teachers and Students Assocation in the Senate Inquiry on Youth Suicide to address the then Prime Minister, John Howard, as recorded in Hansard (28 February 1997). FCA 129-130. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, STANDING COMMITTEE ON FAMILY AND COMMUNITY AFFAIRS, Reference: Aspects of youth suicide. (Parliament of Australia, Canberra).


 * Australian Channel Nine Network's 60 Minutes show ran a story (23 March 1997) by reporter: Jeff McMullen, Producers: Kerryn Pratt and Stephen Taylor called Pride and Prejudice - Chris. 60 Minutes (Australian TV program). Nine Network. (Sydney, Australia) interviewing Derek Williams, Christopher and Vicky Tsakalos, showing students at Cranebrook High School. I have the video of this and several other television appearances by Derek Williams, including the Australian Broadcasting Corporation programme Attitude program (1993). Attitude Episode 3: 'Homophobia'). Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Green Left: https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/anti-gay-violence-nsw-schools


 * He was also a key witness in Jacqui Griffin's successful discrimination case against the Sydney Catholic Education Office, adjudicated by the Human Rights & Equal Opportunity Commission. Sidoti, Chris. (March 1998). Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission Report of Inquiry into a Complaint of Discrimination in Employment and Occupation.  Discrimination on the ground of sexual preference. HRC Report No. 6. (Australia)


 * Derek Williams was interviewed by Cameron, Deborah (5 November 2010). Radio interview: Australian Expats Abroad. SoundCloud. ABC Radio 702, (Australia). Chrisdevelop (talk) 22:16, 5 April 2023 (AEDT)


 * Williams' 'Save Sibelius' campaign was also widely circulated, and he was named in MacUser magazine: Adam Banks (17 August 2012): Avid hits bum note with Sibelius, 'MacUser'.  Page 14. Publisher:  Dennis Publishing (London, England). Numerous interviews of Derek Williams, including interview with The Audio Podcast, (6 August 2012) on YouTube Interview: The Audio Podcast 67 Sib Synth Notation with The Audio Podcast.  (United Kingdom). Also Peter Kirn, (9 August  2012)'  Avid’s Sibelius Scoring Tool Marches On, But Without Its Creators, As Users Protest.  Publisher:  Create Digital Media (Berlin, Germany). Also by Jack Schofield (7 August 2012),  Users petition Avid to sell Sibelius music software arm, 'Avid Community'. Publisher:  ZDNet (Cramlington, United Kingdom). Refer my Sandbox for the deleted section. This too could be spliced into the main article, in a toned down version. Chrisdevelop (talk) 21:43, 6 April 2023 (AEDT)


 * Jonpatterns, would you like to climb in here? You commented on my original draft for this article a few years ago with several useful suggestions, and said if it was "toned down", it would meet Wikipedia guidelines. I eventually deleted my draft article and moved it to User:Chrisdevelop/sandbox to allow another editor to have a go, and that was published a few weeks ago in a considerably toned down form. Editor Onel5969 thereafter flagged the new article as 'Orphan', which I addressed by linking to all the articles that relate to the subject, but notability is now being challenged by Onel5969. I have addressed this in my comments above, as well as by drawing attention to my original effort and copying some of the citations from it. No challenges to notability were made at the time of my original draft article, nor at the time the current article was published, nor by WP:VRT under 2023032310009784. That was of course re copyvio, not notability, but since Permissions asked for the article to be reinstated, which it subsequently was, I would have expected they'd notice any issue of notability at that time. Do you agree notability is addressed with the above edits, and do you think I should copy toned down and updated versions of the Save Sibelius and LGBT Activism sections currently in Sandbox into the main body of the current article? Many thanks, Chris. Chrisdevelop (talk) 11:49, 8 April 2023 (AEDT)
 * Yeah this article is just ... odd. I can't think of any other way to describe it and I can't put my finger on what's so odd about it, but it just is. It's obvious a huge amount of work has gone into it, but normally on Wikipedia it's not that hard to prove notability. Perhaps the problem is he's not that famous in the wider world as a person (though some of the things he's done, such as the soundtracks he's worked on) are well-known indeed. He probably deserves an article here but I wouldn't blame someone if they wanted to nominate this page for deletion. and maybe it'll get better in the passage of time. My only concrete advice is to check other similar Wikipedia bios carefully, especially how they're formatted and laid out, and try to emulate them here. I found this page because of the message on Help talk:Archiving a talk page (and by adding this comment to this section I've just delayed its archiving). Graham87 (talk) 15:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking into the archiving question. Did you read the LGBT+ rights section? There is significant press coverage documented there, with citations for each, including three full page articles on the subject in notable masheads, e.g. Sydney Morning Herald. He also appeared before the Australian Senate and in other civil rights matters, again with citations and links to the trials themselves. I'll take your advice though, and look at other bio articles to try and improve the article. Chrisdevelop (talk) 15:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah I was about to answer the archiving question but I was too slow. I had only skim-read that section but it still seems more about the Gay & Lesbian Teachers & Students Association (GaLTaS) than Williams (perhaps that organisation needs a separate article and a mention at LGBT rights in Australia), at the very least. I also wonder if it had/has any relationship to the Safe Schools Coalition Australia org. Graham87 (talk) 15:34, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * A separate GaLTaS article would slim down the Williams article considerably, I agree - as happened with his 'Save Sibelius' campaign in the UK. As well as LGBT+ rights activism in Australia, he was a major player in that, and appeared numerous times in the press and moving image media, that establishes notability in both countries. I'll start on something for GaLTaS soon. Chrisdevelop (talk) 15:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I have created a draft article for GaLTaS Draft:Gay and Lesbian Teachers and Students Association (GaLTaS). Can you please take a look and review? Chrisdevelop (talk) 20:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Nice work; I've tweaked the opening and ending. I think it'd be better to frame it with a history section and to try to put things in chronological order (but I don't have the time or knowledge to do that). Is there any reason why you haven't moved it to the main namespace yourself? The articles for creation process is mainly designed for new users. Also, I've moved the earlier sandbox edits back to User:Chrisdevelop/sandbox because they're irrelevant to the main article. When you start a sandbox for a new article, it'd be easier to start it at a distinct title. The acronym shouldn't be part of the title, either. I might move the page to the main namespace later when I have more time to figure out categorisation and the like, but you can absolutely do that on your own. Graham87 (talk) 03:06, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Great, thank you! I agree with all your edits. I did have it originally in chronological order (i.e. originally copied from the Williams article) but after another editor called for headings to break up the text, it made more sense to relate the events to each of the headings, and be chronological within the sections. I’m bleary-eyed now but will look at this again later today.
 * By all means go ahead and move to mainspace if you think it’s ok for now - I only used the draft space to do more work on it, to reduce the emphasis on Williams, since it’s no longer about him, and I found quite some new references to build into it.
 * Once it’s settled down, I’ll go ahead and prune the Williams article. Chrisdevelop (talk) 03:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * OK I've moved it to mainspace at Gay and Lesbian Teachers and Students Association and added categories from the Safe Schools Coalition Australia page (if in doubt, find a more established page on a similar topic and use it as a model). It's OK that you wanted to draft the page but submitting it for approval wasn't necessary; see this essay. Graham87 (talk) 06:59, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Brilliant, thanks for your engagement, input and support and it's great to see no-one's tried to delete the page. Assuming it'll survive, I've gone ahead and linked to it from Virginia Chadwick and the Williams article. I'll get around to pruning this asap. I've also created redirects from Gay & Lesbian Teachers & Students Association and GaLTaS, just in case.
 * I have taken my Sandbox back, now that GaLTaS is in mainspace, to work on a slimmed down LGBT Activism section for the Williams article. Chrisdevelop (talk) 14:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Categories deleted
Dear @User:Michael Bednarek; concerning your flagging of certain categories on grounds of 'parent' in locations given for New Zealand (birthplace of subject and residence till 1985), Australia (notable period for subject who lived there 22 years until 2006) and Scotland (current period for subject), can you clarify please that, say, a musician born in New Zealand is forever a "NZ Musician", irrespective of domicile thereafter, i.e. does he never become an Australian, British or Scottish musician? Chrisdevelop (talk) 11:06, 9 April 2023 (AEDT)
 * Only if they acquire the respective citizenships, and if they do, that needs to be documented in the article. If they live and work for extended periods in other countries, the relevant subcategories of Category:Expatriates may be considered. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:19, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for promptly clarifying. This subject is an expatriate New Zealander with a Scottish mother. New Zealanders have automatic Right of Abode in Australia, and can live and work there for life (but cannot vote) without a visa. New Zealanders with a British mother or father likewise have Right of abode in the United Kingdom, and can live, work and vote in the UK for life without a visa, and without ever changing their citizenship. In both instances, expatriates living in these countries also have full access to state welfare. Does that not effectively make this subject Australian for the 22 years he lived there, and British/Scottish, for the 16 years he has lived there? In terms of proof, does one have to publish on Wikipedia the subject's Birth Certificate and Right of Abode certificate, or is that a WP:AFG assumption? Chrisdevelop (talk) 12:01, 9 April 2023 (AEDT)
 * Publishing any certificate would fall foul of WP:PRIMARY. Instead, his Scottish/British heritage needs to be documented from secondary or tertiary sources (press articles, encyclopedia entries). Even so, I understand that nationalities in categories apply only to actual citizenship; see e.g. Russell Crowe, Teddy Tahu Rhodes, and many others -:) -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:39, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. I couldn't see this when I clicked on the categories themselves to ascertain their appropriateness before adding themn. For now, I have removed all the categories you flagged, leaving the list as below:


 * Category:1952 births
 * Category:20th-century classical composers
 * Category:21st-century classical composers
 * Category:Australian LGBT rights activists
 * Category:Film score composers
 * Category:Gay musicians
 * Category:LGBT rights activists
 * Category:Living people
 * Category:Male opera composers
 * Category:Music arrangers
 * Category:New Zealand classical composers
 * Category:New Zealand conductors (music)
 * Category:New Zealand LGBT rights activists
 * Category:People associated with the University of Edinburgh
 * Category:University of Auckland alumni
 * Category:Alumni of the University of Edinburgh


 * From what I understand of the last category (UoE Alumni), this can be used if studies were undertaken during the subject's notable period. I believe this can be upheld on the grounds that during PhD studies, Williams was Musical Director of Edinburgh University Students' Association Savoy Opera Group, Assistant Conductor for the Edinburgh Grand Opera production of Faust, was Producer and Composer for the Edinburgh University Encounters double CD recording project, funded by the Roberts Fund, was arranger for Caroline O'Connor's performance at the Royal Albert Hall Night of A Thousands Voices produced by Hugh Wooldridge. There is also a profile on Edinburgh University's website: Derek Williams. If we are agreed, I'll go ahead and post these. Chrisdevelop (talk) 17:10, 9 April 2023 (AEDT)
 * Thank you for understanding. I still see some problems with the categories above. The Edinburgh alumni status should be mentioned in the article (easy from the ED web site), and his gay/LGBT activist stance ought to be documented in the article, and then the parent "Category:LGBT rights activists" should be dropped, NZ LGBT will suffice, and OZ LGBT still doesn't apply. Also, I can't see anything in the article that supports "opera composer". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:05, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
 * LGBT+ Rights activism appears in the first paragraph "Civil rights activist,[1][2][3][4]", with links to full page articles including his appearance before the Australian Senate. I've added another to his Edinburgh University status as Secretary of the Staff Pride Network, so there are now four citations in the article to his LGBT+ rights activism. Perhaps this should have its own section. In my earlier draft, I had prepared a section on this, but it was removed when the redraft was published by another editor a few weeks ago. In that paragraph in my Sandbox under User:Chrisdevelop/sandbox, you can see the bulk of his LGBT+ activism occurred in Australia, hence why I still feel this activism also belongs in the Australian LGBT Rights category. Re the Opera category, I have added mention in paragraph 1 that that was what his doctorate was awarded for (as mentioned also in the UoE Alumni profile also added as you suggest). I also added a citation to an interview about Williams as opera composer filmed with Christina Dunwoodie. This is OR, but Dunwoodie is notable, as is the RCS. Note that in her Royal Conservatoire of Scotland profile, Williams is mentioned as composer of the opera Medea for the Edinburgh Festival in 2013. Chrisdevelop (talk) 23:43, 9 April 2023 (AEDT)
 * I was not aware of your sandbox or of this article's extensive . I agree with the last reviewer's (Jonpatterns) comment in May 2018 that your draft was almost ready for publication, save for some "toning down". I suggest you might incorporate parts of your draft into this article (but don't use inline external links as you did on several occasions there). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:10, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all your advice! I'll do as you suggest. Regards, Chris. Chrisdevelop (talk) 00:13, 10 April 2023 (AEDT)

Dear @Bearcat, I noticed you recently deleted from the Categories for this article, Category:LGBT rights activists on the grounds of 'duplicate categorization; already in subcat(s)', which I am assuming are Category:Australian LGBT rights activists and Category:New Zealand LGBT rights activists. Can you clarify please, do subcategories as above automatically appear in the umbrella category Category:LGBT rights activists? Chrisdevelop (talk) 15:57, 17 April 2023 (AEDT)
 * Any joy? Chrisdevelop (talk) 06:41, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The way categorization works on here is, if a category has subcategories for the appropriate nationalities, then a person goes only in those — duplicate categorization in both parent and child categories at the same time (e.g. both "New Zealand X" and "X" at the same time) is neither desired nor expected. So no, a person does not go in and  at the same time: his inclusion in the parent category is supposed to occur only in the sense that the child category is a subcategory of the parent category, and a person's direct appearance as an entry in the parent category alongside his direct appearance as an entry in the child category constitutes unwanted category clutter. Bearcat (talk) 11:17, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying! Chrisdevelop (talk) 12:53, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Unclear citation style flag
Thank you for going through all the dates in this article's citations and amending them. The YYYY-MM-DD format appears to have been introduced by a bot at some point, because the dates originally entered were all in the date format you changed them to: DD Mmm YYYY, where Mmm = fully spelt alphabetical month name. That said, YYYY-MM-DD is given as an acceptable format at Overview of date formatting guidelines, but I appreciate that whatever format is chosen should be consistent throughout the article. I have been using (DD Mmm YYYY) for all the citations for mention in various publications, such as in newspapers. If you look at first upload for this article, you'll notice that it used the format you reverted it to. For example: <:ref><:/ref> which you amended to <:ref><:/ref> in my sandbox original used to create this citation was <:ref>Wagner Society of Scotland. (Edinburgh, Scotland)<:/ref>. All the other citations that you edited, such as for the 'LGBT activism' section had likewise been in the correct date format, until a bot switched them all to YYYY-MM-DD. Can you please help troubleshoot how this came to be, and how to prevent a bot changing all these dates back again? Can you please also give an example of an 'unclear citation' you flagged as an issue, so I can go through them all and amend or remove them? Chrisdevelop (talk) 05:49, 20 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Accidentally placed the wrong tag. Someone who&#39;s wrong on the internet (talk) 06:32, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for all your work on cleaning up the various refs. I see there is now a COI tag. Please refer to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Chrisdevelop where I acknowledge that I obtained much of the source information from the subject himself to build this article. If you can highlight specific sections that you believe suffer from my personal knowledge of the subject, I would be glad to address them. Chrisdevelop (talk) 06:36, 20 April 2023 (UTC)