Talk:Derry/Londonderry name dispute/Archive 1

Article name
User:Pharos moved this article to Derry naming dispute without discussion or reference, so I've reverted it. His move was highly provocative - it undermines the entire basis of the discussion if the title prejudges the outcome. It qualifies as vandalism. --Red King 12:23, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether there is a dispute or not. The official name is still Londonderry. Anybody who discusses the dispute and uses the name Derry whilst discussing the dispute is merely openly declaring sympathy with the Irish nationalists who wish to change the name to Derry. This applies to some well known guidebooks as well.

Until such times, if ever, that the name is officially changed to Derry, then all official articles relating to this city should be filed under the official name of Londonderry. Let's not forget about the history and the reasons why the city is called Londonderry. Let's not forget about the famous siege of 1689 and the fact that Londonderry is something of a Jerusalem to the Protestant population of Northern Ireland. I've seen far too many official publications pandering to the Irish catholic community and using the name Derry. These sources are often authored by people in far away lands who have no connection whatsoever with Northern Ireland, but who have for whatever reason become romantically attached to the Irish nationalist cause. We hear these people justifying themselves and pretending to be neutral and saying things like 'Derry is the most commonly used name'. (211.72.91.97)


 * Please don't call changes you disagree with "vandalism". "Derry" is simply the most common name, which is why our article on the city is at Derry and why our article on the city's history is at History of Derry.  Using this name in the article title does not prejudge the issue at all; it doesn't say what the "right name" is, but just gives it a simple, standardized name.  I am just trying to establish a simple standard for Category:Geographical naming disputes, of which this article is a member.--Pharos 16:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


 * If your motives are as innocent as you say, then you really need to read some of the talk pages at Derry, County Londonderry and (currently) Seamus Heaney before you go blundering in.
 * The essence of the dispute is that there are two opposing views of the name of the city (as there are with the name of the county). So the title of the article must reflect that dispute.  According to your logic, another editor could equally move the article to Londonderry naming dispute (and I'd revert that too, if it too had been done without debate).  If the article is called Derry naming dispute (or Londonderry naming dispute) then it gives precedence to one name or the other and thus precedence to one community view or the other. Wiki has achieved a less-than-perfect, but tolerable to both sides, compromise. Leave it alone.
 * If you want to persist with this, then you have to use the Request to Move procedure since it is disputed. --Red King 10:52, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Merge with "Londonderry (name)"
I Support the merger - the articles cover the same ground. --Red King 23:36, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I too would support a merger. But be careful what the newly merged article is called. It must have both Derry and Londonderry in its title! --Snalwibma 08:55, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I have set up Londonderry (name) as a redirect to here, after looking through the article there wasn't really anything new there which wasn't already her or in the History of Derry page. Thanks/Wangi 15:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Hyphen city?
Not even a casual mention of this nickname which results from the problem? --MacRusgail 14:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of that nickname, but it sounds like a variant of the mentioned "Stroke City". Danny InvincibleTalk 17:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

North-West as compromise
Is "North West" really a compromise? If it encompasses County Donegal, it works for nationalists, but not if it means "northwestern Northern Ireland". jnestorius(talk) 19:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

City v County
The article isn't very good at distinguishing the city from the county. Does, e.g. the BBC naming policy apply to both, or just to the city? jnestorius(talk) 19:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Official name versus most common name
What a ridiculous argument being offered up by some people that the most common name (Derry) should be used in place of the official name (Londonderry). This stance has wide and undesirable consequences. The most common name can not be objectively measured: it must be estimated by the study of a population. How is the population to be defined?

Everyone I know refers to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as "the UK". Why is the relevant article named "United Kingdom"? Which population consistently refers to the country as "United Kingdom", and why is their opinion more weighty than that of hundreds of people in my acquaintance and in the media who have referred to it as "the UK"?

Other examples from the top of my head, but they are many, many more:

- The town of Ashby-de-la-Zouch is commonly referred to as Ashby. Why not name the article "Ashby"? - Many people say "chimp", not chimpanzee, let's rename the article? - "Amp" instead of "instrumental amplifier".

The list would be very long. It is clear that most articles do NOT use the most common name, but rightly use the official name, except where is it very long (like in the United Kingdom of Great Britain example). When will Wiki people apply the precedence and common sense to this case, and use the official name, instead of the name most commonly used? 82.29.231.118 (talk) 14:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * First off, you are talking not about this article but about two others: Derry and County Londonderry. The basic policy which you disagree with is Naming conventions (common names). In the case of the London/Derry articles, this is somewhat overridden by Naming conflict and in particular Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles). You may want to join the long-running debate on the talk-pages of any of those pages. Your comments aren't really relevant here. jnestorius(talk) 17:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It is relevant. I found a gem there, in Naming conventions (common names). It said "we need to temper common usage when the commonly used term is unreasonably misleading or commonly regarded as offensive to one or more groups of people." To use "Derry" instead of "Londonderry" in a reference source is upsetting to many people, and not just unionists. I'm not a unionist. I like reason and consistency, that's why it offends me. And please don't say that Londonderry would be offensive to certain groups. It's the offical name. It's like saying you don't like the word for bread, or Thursday. Btw, I know I can't change policy, I just like to make my voice heard on this issue now and again so that reasonable people concerned about the Londonderry dispute know that they aren't alone in the face of Wikibias. 82.29.231.118 (talk) 18:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Israeli-Palestinian parallel
Does anyone have a reference for the Israeli-Palestinian parallel section?

There are often parallels drawn between Londonderry-Derry and Israeli-Palestinians. The term thought is a more generally referrance to the Israeli-Palestinians parallel with Unionism-Nationalism. Unionism and Loyalism see themselves siding more with Israel, and Nationalism and Republicanism see themselves siding more with Palestine.

Unionists regard Northern Ireland are their home and part of the United Kingdom along with England, Scotland and Wales, and done want reunification with the Irish Republic to led to an independent united Irish republic. In the way Israelites see Israel as their home and dont want a seperate Palestinian nation as they see the terrioties as their own.

Nationalists dont regard Northern Ireland as a nation, but want the six counties (in there view under british occupation) to be reunify with the rest of the Irish Republic. Palestinians see themselves under Israeli occupation and want to establish their own independent state of Palestine.

On loyalists estates its is common to see the Israeli flag flying, while similary on republican estates it is common to se Palestinian flagss flying. The innvolement of terrorism is another key, as Unionists see the Israel being attacked by paramilitaries in the same way republican paramilitaries attacked Northern Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.6.163.133 (talk) 08:50, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Introduction: Union Politicians

 * Unionist politicians, especially, would rarely, if ever, let themselves be heard referring to the city as "Derry".[citation needed]

This sentence scans really horribly – the four commas in a row make it trip over itself – and is also hearsay. I don't think Unionist politicians called the city Derry any more or less that any other unionists, in the same way as nationalists avoided Londonderry; basically it seems a bit like filler.

I'd have removed it already, but I presume that every word on this page is hotly contended, so said I'd take it here first – any objections?

Dave (talk) 16:25, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved Kotniski (talk) 06:57, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Derry/Londonderry name dispute → Derry and Londonderry name dispute — Per WP:SLASH TITLE, slashes are to be avoided in names due to their ambiguity. Note that no other article in Category:Geographical naming disputes has a slash in its name. I'm certainly open to other names as well. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


 * This is a nonsolution to a nonproblem
 * WP:SLASH relates to slashes in the prose of the article body, not the article title.
 * WP:TITLE has no mention of slashes, except in the caution "Do not use titles suggesting that one article forms part of another", which hardly applies in this case.
 * While a slash may be ambiguous in some contexts, this is not one of them. It seems clear to me at least that "A/B naming dispute" means "naming dispute about an entity that is called A by some people and B by other people".
 * As this article states, the "Derry/Londonderry" formulation is a real-world convention, not merely a Wikipedia ad-hoc workaround
 * The proposed "Derry and Londonderry name dispute" might suggest there are 2 places, one called variously "Derry" or SomethingElse1 and the other called variously "Londonderry" or SomethingElse2.
 * The other articles in Category:Geographical naming disputes don't offer much guidance; none of them are of the form "Name1 and Name2". Most use only Name1, where that is the name of the corresponding Wikipedia article. If this article related purely to the city, then "Derry naming dispute" would be the nearest to the pattern; similarly "County Londonderry naming dispute" if that were a separate article. "Derry and County Londonderry naming dispute" would suggest a misleading summary of the issue.
 * jnestorius(talk) 08:20, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Oppose per jnestorius. As the article says, the city has the nickname "Stroke City", referring to the compromise naming convention "Derry/Londonderry". Cjc13 (talk) 13:23, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - how ironic to remove the stroke from the title of the article about Stroke City! SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 13:29, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Oppose. I was a little suprised at the claim about Slash City but Google confirms. That taken into consideration the title with the slash is such a good article title for this particular topic that I'd invoke WP:IAR to keep it even if the MOS or article naming policy didn't allow it, but I think they both clearly do. Andrewa (talk) 14:39, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment: I note thst the rationale above has been changed but the general argument seems the same... it isn't done elsewhere and the guidelines discourage it. The reason it isn't done elsewhere is that no other city is so commonly referred to by a "slashed" name, and the guidelines may discourage it but they leave the option open to use a slash if the case merits it, and this one does. No change of vote. Andrewa (talk) 14:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Oppose The "Derry/Londonderry" is not a Wikipedia construction (it is also known as Stroke City in addition to Slash City, which I had never heard of before), and it seems the simplest and most neutral way of titling the article. In addition "Derry and Londonderry" is misleading construction per Jnestorius. O Fenian (talk) 15:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A modest proposal
Having just encountered a few nutters on the internet I've done a bit of research, and I think the best plan is for them to rename the city to "Asparagus". That way everyone will be happy. 86.178.52.148 (talk) 22:04, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * IP, this approach is counter-productive & may lead to your getting blocked. GoodDay (talk) 22:16, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Just trying to lighten the air a bit, but ok :D 86.178.52.148 (talk) 23:03, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Falls a bit short of Swiftian, 86.147. But doesn't justify GoodDay's threat. Brocach (talk) 00:07, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not a threat, it's advice by knowing how sensative other editors are. GoodDay (talk) 01:38, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/347152/Londonderry They say: "Londonderry, locally and historically Derry and Irish Doire, city and the larger district that encompasses it, formerly in the even larger County Londonderry, northwestern Northern Ireland. The old city and adjacent urban and rural areas were administratively merged in 1969 and later became one of Northern Ireland’s 26 districts during the United Kingdom’s local government reorganization in 1973. Steeped in the region’s political turmoil, controversy surrounds the city’s name. The British government officially refers to the city and district as Londonderry City, and since 1984 the nationalist-controlled city council has called itself the Derry City Council. "

Yeah.72.174.31.77 (talk) 10:20, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

New or Renamed - Can't be both
When a new walled city was built by The Honourable The Irish Society across the River Foyle from the old site of the town, using donations from the livery companies of the City of London during the 17th century Plantation of Ulster by English and Scottish settlers, it was renamed and granted a Royal charter as the City of Londonderry

Was the this new Londonderry a new settlement or an extension of the old one at the time. Obviously today they're the same city, but was Londonderry originally a second settlement across the river from Derry or did it incorporate the older town of Derry? beano (talk) 12:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Londonderry was a completely new settlement, built on the opposite site of the River Foyle to the town called Derry. Derry was destroyed by a local chieftain called Cahir O'Doherty before Londonderry was built. JonChapple Talk 11:47, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Response to the dispute - Wikipedia
An idea would it be good to put how Wikipedia responds to the dispute by calling the City Derry and the county County Londonderry e.c.t? C. 22468 (talk) 20:21, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless you have reliable source, it is not going in. O Fenian (talk) 21:12, 26 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I am aware that you shouldn't use wikipedia as a source which is ok but in this case I think there should be an exception as it is not using information off other articles, it is using a style guide like how The Times and The Guardian information on this article is written.C. 22468 (talk) 08:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)


 * In the early 1980s the Irish history faculty at Queen's University proposed that the opposite should be the case. That the County should carry the official name Derry and the city Londonderry. Their reasoning was based on the fact that the County name was always meant to be County Derry, only the City was granted a London charter, while they also reasoned that the City itself never was Derry. The 1613 plantation City of Londonderry being some six miles from the old destroyed Irish settlement of Derry. They stated that the two settlements should be regarded as different places. A second proposal in the 1990s suggested that the City have it's city status revoked and instead be split into the twin towns of Londonderry [Waterside] and Derry [City side]. both proposals were met with widespread rejection from the citizens.Captainbeecher (talk) 21:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I have let to see a royal charter for the creation of a new city called Londonderry. James I charter (1613) was for the renaming of the Derry and also for the creation of County Londonderry. Bjmullan (talk) 21:41, 28 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Both the city & the county should be called Londonderry. But, the current compromise on the city/county will suffice. GoodDay (talk) 15:38, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Why? Read Bjmullan's statement above. King James' charter clearly stated Derry which is the Anglicised version of the Irish Doire. 'Doire existed centuries before the establishment of the Ulster Plantation and even before the arrival of Strongbow and his forces.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:46, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt, the city's article title will be changed. GoodDay (talk) 16:28, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not in this century anyroad (or the next).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:43, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Why not hyphenated?
Sorry about opening the can of worms that is the Derry/Londonderry name dispute.

But why use City of Derry for the urban area and County Londonderry for the political area.

There is no continuity in this approach. Why not hyphenated? Reasons:


 * 1) The name London-Derry in full is the 'official' name of the areas in Ulster that is within the United Kingdom,
 * 2) The capitalisation of the letter 'D' in Derry. Denotes the 'original' name for the areas before the prefix of London was added during the Plantation of Ulster. Mr Taz (talk) 16:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * support Mr Taz (talk) 16:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Why not? Very simple. Because neither city nor county is ever called London-Derry. It is not Wikipedia's role to invent new names for the subjects it describes. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 16:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

It you would be a reasonable compromise to hyphenate it, but then there argue would pursue "why does London go first?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.151.1 (talk) 15:32, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Vandalised road signs in the republic
Has anyone seen road signs for Derry in the republic with London spay-painted in front? Stanstaple (talk) 14:19, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I could imagine a few parts of eastern Donegal or parts of Cavan or Monaghan where people might do it, but without evidence thats speculation at best. I have seen however some signs in my local area where the "Derry" is painted out just leaving "London". Mabuska (talk) 15:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The relevant sentence in the cited source reads In the Republic of Ireland the road signs use the name 'Derry' and not Londonderry, so these too are often vandalised and 'London' is painted on the sign, which is certainly an overstatement. The author, Eithne McLaughlin, was Professor of Social Policy at Queens, so it's not just some crank fantasy, and no doubt there have been instances; but I suspect a desire for parity-of-everything tempted her to inject a spurious balance that the facts about vandalism don't warrant. jnestorius(talk) 17:09, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

As someon who lives in the Republic I can say I've never seen this — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.181.62 (talk) 19:53, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Question from a Foreigner
Is the local usage of "Stroke City" understood to be a pun of Stoke City F.C.?


 * I don't think so. Its just a reference to the stroke character between the divsions in the name.  Its just a happy coincidence basically, to my knowledge. --Mal 20:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Only secondarily, but only by Gerry Anderson of the Radio Foyle, rather than by the natives themselves. -- KC9TV 17:37, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Answer: "Stroke" City is an allusion to the ailment that may befall the citizens of Derry from eating too many Irish Breakfasts of sausages, bacon, eggs, and black pudding. Irl32csc 11:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * All the better reason to stick to the good oul' Ulster Fry instead. ;) -- Mal 04:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Heart attack on a plate,yum!


 * The answer referring to Irish breakfasts is not correct. The stroke refers to the stroke between the names Derry and Londonderry and was coined in the 1970s by Radio Foyle presenter Gerry AndersonCaptainbeecher (talk) 21:07, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Note to Editors
Note to editors: the agreed compromise for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute is that the city page shall be titled Derry and the county page shall be titled County Londonderry. That is the stance of wikipedia. We know that the county name is derived from that of the city so this is totally inconsistent. It also doesnt resolve the fact that its official name in law is lodonderry and if wikipedia is to be factually accurate it should be reported as such. Not changing the name to appease some who would wish it was named derry 19carson90 (talk) 00:12, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you prove that the official name in the law is really spelt as Lodonderry? The Banner talk 17:42, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Is there a need for that comment. Mabuska (talk) 22:32, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Pointing out when cretins can't spell is probably fair enough 81.178.230.206 (talk) 07:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And there was no need for that comment either. Civility costs nothing. --Red King (talk) 16:00, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Now to return to 19carson90's challenge, the names have historical bases but the essence for Wikipedia is that we had to settle on one name or the other for each article. What we have got is a compromise that provides equality of misery to both sides. The Unionists are upset about Derry, the Nationalists are upset about County Londonderry.  It you search for Londonderry or type en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londonderry, you will as if my magic arrive at your favourite article. Just don't read the first word. --Red King (talk) 16:00, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Dubious statement on boroughs
I have removed this dubious statement:
 * The 1972 legislation does not provide that county boroughs be automatically renamed with their districts, though it does contain such a provision for municipal boroughs.

There is a reference to the 2007 judicial review, but not to a specific section. I think it may be a misreading of Paragraph 13, in particular the part in bold [emphasis added]:
 * Further, the 1972 Act provided for the future of existing charters at section 132 as follows –
 * “(1) On 1st October 1973 the charter of the corporation of every borough other than a county borough or a borough to whose corporation subsection (3)(b) applies shall be annulled.
 * (2) The council for a district which includes the whole or the major part of a borough other than a county borough may, before 1st October 1973, resolve that the charter of the corporation of the borough shall have effect in relation to the district; and, if the borough bears a name other than the name of the district, the resolution shall provide for the name of the corporation of the borough to be changed to correspond to the name of the district.
 * (3) On and after 1st October 1973 the charter of-
 * (a) the corporation of each county borough; and
 * (b) the corporation of a borough with respect to whose charter a resolution has been passed under subsection (2);
 * shall have effect in relation to the district which includes the whole or the major part of the borough as existing immediately before that date, but subject to any order made under section 134(4)(c).
 * (5) The corporation established or regulated by a charter to which subsection (3) applies shall continue to bear the name it bore immediately before 1st October 1973 or, where a resolution passed under this section provides for a change of its name, shall on and after that date bear the name specified in the resolution, and shall continue to have perpetual succession, and shall act by the council of the district mentioned in that subsection.”

The borough name is not changing in parllel with the district name changing: it is changing from something different to be the same. Also, it only applied before the 1973 changeover, not since. The import is as follows: Bangor borough was to be included in North Down district. By default, on 1st October 1973, Bangor Borough Corporation would have been dissolved and North Down District Council come into being. But before that date, Bangor Borough Corporation passed a resolution under §132(2), and thereby renamed itself North Down Borough Corporation; and on 1st October 1973, was succeeded by North Down Borough Council. So the section is a roundabout way of ensuring that the new council would be "North Down Borough Council" rather than "North Down District Council". Borough status now applies to the current district, not to any former urban district within it. Technically the borough is now Derry, though the city is Londonderry. See Borough status in the United Kingdom. jnestorius(talk) 11:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

The Issue of Neutrality
There is no such thing as neutrality in this debate. Every comment in this section is made from either a Unionist perspective or from a Nationalist perspective. What is interesting is the manner in which writers of both persuasions try to pretend that they are being neutral, as if there exists some big competition to prove who can be the most neutral while pushing their own point of view. We see Nationalists claiming neutrality while arguing that the word 'London' shouldn't be in the name for practical purposes. We see Unionists stabbing the Orange Order in the back, stabbing the 12th July in the back, and stabbing other Unionists in the back who argue with Nationalists, and then proceeding to argue as to why the name Londonderry should be retained.

This kind of disguised quibbling doesn't help the outsider to get an understanding of what the dispute is really about. There can be no compromise. The day that 'London' is dropped from the name, then the Nationalists will have won.

Londonderry was set up as a walled city by the City of London Guilds in the 17th Century. It was originally a Protestant city and it holds a special position in Protestant folklore by virtue of the great siege of 1689. The Catholics eventually came to outnumber the Protestants in the city and in 1973 they took over political control. This campaign to drop 'London' from the city name is nothing more than an attempt to rub the noses of the Protestants in the muck.

Meanwhile, until such times as Her Majesty's Government descides to pander to the wishes of the Nationalists and to drop 'London' from the name, then the name should appear as Londonderry for both the city and the county in all official publications. Wikipedia should be as zealous about enforcing the official name for Londonderry as they are about enforcing the new official name of Kolkata for Calcutta. (60.248.3.133 04:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC))

Oh come on you know very well that Queen Elizabeth 2 of England cant drop London form the title as bigots like yourself would cause mayhem. "pander to the wishes of the nationalists" Hhhmmmm I think the wishes of the Unionists have been pandered to long enough," a unionist government for a unionist people?", with gerrymandering rife(oh and if you protest well shoot you down) the sooner partition ends the better, and now that democracy has finnaly come to N.I. it will end.Its inevitable,and you know it!P.S. Ulster is NOT N.I.! Wiki should enforce this fact strickly.


 * But we don't enforce official names. Kolkata is the most common name for the city by far so in that case it is clear (it is also virtually the only name for inhabitants of that city). In this case the most common name is in hot dispute (and so too among the inhabitants) so we have come up with a compromise that works well. The official name has little if any relevance in naming any wikipedia article. The fact is, there is a naming dispute regardless of what the official name is so this article should say. Also you appear to have a misunderstood NPOV. NPOV doesn't require neutrality in a debate. it simply requires us to present both points of view as neutrally as possible. 203.109.240.93 13:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It is off-topic here, but http://www.google.co.in/search?q=kolkata+site%3A.in and http://www.google.co.in/search?q=calcutta+site%3A.in get roughly the same number of hits --Henrygb 02:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps they did in 2007, but now Kolkata gives over 60 million, while Calcutta gives under 5 Million (it's slightly less lop-sided if you don't use www.google.co.in, but google Ireland still gives 45 Million for Kolkata, and under 10 million for Calcutta). But I agree with you that it's rather off-topic 178.167.166.180 (talk) 04:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Contrary to what has been claimed at the start of this section, there IS such a thing as neutrality in this dispute, at least in some instances. It should be rather obvious that most of humankind are neutral in this dispute in the sense that they very sensibly couldn't care less about it (only partly because most of them have never heard of the place). It should also be obvious that people who use expressions like "Derry/Londonderry" are often (and probably usually) making a genuine effort to be neutral, and the same is probably also true of people coming up with compromises such as "L-Derry". And the attitude "a plague on both your houses" is arguably also a form of neutrality. 178.167.166.180 (talk) 04:22, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Foyle
Has anyone proposed calling the city "Foyle" or "Foyleside" or "Foyle City"? Names in this vein seem to be the de facto standard anyway.

If such an idea is anything other than my O.R., maybe someone in the know could document its history, rationale and acceptability in a NPOV way. -- Abut 22:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC) (no flaming please)

Good idea but it wouldnt happen under British rule as the Queen would have to repeal the old name and Paisleys crowd would cause bloody uproar. Some loyalists eh? What are they even loyal to anymore?


 * Please, no personal attacks. They only make you look bad. Antique Rose &mdash; Drop me a line  22:54, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

You could call it Aberfoyle, meaning 'the mouth of the Foyle'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.151.1 (talk) 15:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, you could do. But you would be geographically incorrect, because Strathfoyle - the valley of the Foyle - is located between the city and the mouth of the Foyle.  It would be better to call it Innackifoyle.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:2422:7849:E963:248D:B1EC:66F2 (talk) 07:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Call it Bob
Bob You cant go wrong with calling this town Bob. Great name for anything you cant come up with a name for. From now on, Londonderry it is not, Derry it is not... It's just Bob. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.69.24 (talk) 16:54, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Very amusing, but the nationalists won't like that because Bob is too much of an Anglican name. They'd much prefer a name like Paddy. Ezza1995 (talk) 23:15, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Mention the border?
I think it would be appropriate for the article to mention somewhere, perhaps in the lead paragraph, that although Derry/Londonderry is in Northern Ireland it's just a few miles or kilometers from the border. Foreign readers may not be aware of that, and it helps explain something of why tensions would be particularly strong there. I'm not going to make the edit myself, but will leave it to someone more familiar with the contentions involved. --70.49.171.136 (talk) 16:39, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Guardian Style Guide
The Guardian style guide seems to relate to the naming of the County only. "Londonderry: use Derry and County Derry (first mention, thereafter Co Derry)" Would this be everyone else's interpretation?Dubs boy (talk) 19:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
 * No. Dmcq (talk) 23:30, 3 July 2015 (UTC)


 * No. I interpret this to mean "Londonderry: use [for the city] Derry and [for the county] County Derry (first mention, thereafter Co Derry)". I don't see how "use Derry and County Derry" makes sense if both refer to the county. jnestorius(talk) 14:26, 5 July 2015 (UTC)


 * So what it means is in the first instance use "County Derry", thereafter use "Co Derry"?Dubs boy (talk) 16:10, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * When discussing the county, yes. As the style guide implies, they also prefer use of Derry for the city - see also here. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:10, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Londaindoire
Perhaps worth mentioning "Londaindoire", occasionally seen in Irish. There are very few Irish-speaking unionists these days, but in the eighteenth century there were an appreciable number, who might have used the word. The Placenames Database of Ireland says that Eólas ar an domhan, i bhfuirm chomhráidh idir Sheán Ó Neachtain agus a mhac Tadhg. writen by Tadhg Ó Neachtain c.1725 and published by the Irish government in 1944, has "(contae) Londuinduire ... (rí-phort) Doire" i.e Londuinduire for the county and Doire for the city. The modern spelling Londaindoire shows up jocularly, but I'm not sure anybody seriously uses it; FWIW Doire begins "Doire nó Londaindoire" though Contae Dhoire doesn't mention it. jnestorius(talk) 15:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * This is supposed to be the English Wikipedia but yes I think that is a reasonable addition for the article somewhere. Dmcq (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2015 (UTC)


 * On the English Wikipedia, English is the metalanguage but not necessarily the object language. As it happens, the Derry/Londonderry naming dispute plays out mainly in English, unlike, say the Sea of Japan/East Sea naming dispute. jnestorius(talk) 15:40, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Double-Stroke City
For amusement only: a surprising map from the Irish government in Dublin which uses single English names for counties and a couple of cities in the Republic and for cities in Northern Ireland, except in this case which is "Derry/Londonderry/Doire" --Rumping (talk) 10:40, 22 October 2015 (UTC)


 * That's from Ordnance Survey Ireland (zoomable map here) not to be confused with Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland. jnestorius(talk) 11:48, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

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Northern Ireland Driving Licences
The article mentions how Northern Ireland driving licences can have either Derry or Londonderry as a place of birth, its my understanding however that driving licences issued in Northern Ireland as well as those issued in Great Britain don't have place of birth on them but rather country of birth which can be either United Kingdom or one of the four constituent countries. I would therefore question what the relevance is to this if its not on one's driving licence. <b style="color: Blue">C. 22468</b> Talk to me  20:33, 15 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Good catch. No it doesn't. Only the current address appears on the driving licence, not a place of birth. <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 21:19, 15 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Does "current address" include city, in which case is an applicant's choice respected between "Derry" and "Londonderry"? jnestorius(talk) 14:05, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes it would include the city. Don't know if the applicants choice is respected there or not. However the line removed was about city of birth, not residence so it's a slightly different topic. If we add in about choice on the resident city for the licence we'll need a source. The last statement should have been removed as unsourced anyway regardless of the birth city bit. <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 14:51, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed all round. A sourced statement regarding residence would be worth adding whichever answer is correct. jnestorius(talk) 15:09, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed. My gut tells me yes it's respected, but I don't know for sure. <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 15:12, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

I thought about the address on driving licences, I would assume its whatever the person writes as their address but I don't know, the important thing is city of birth is no on one's licence. <b style="color: Blue">C. 22468</b> Talk to me  17:45, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Since it'll be the same address they mail the licence to, as long as it's a valid address that the postal system gets it to I doubt anyone cares or gives it any thought. <b style="color: Blue;">Canterbury Tail</b> <i style="color: Blue;">talk</i> 18:16, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

1920–23 council
The 1920 Londonderry Borough Council election produced a nationalist majority, overturned at the 1923 election after the abolition of STV. What little I've read about that time suggests the council systematically used "Derry" in e.g. minutes books, press releases. Some relevant questions: jnestorius(talk) 15:41, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * did it ever publicly contemplate changing the official name?
 * were there any instances of legal documents rendered invalid (or being called into question) because they had "Derry" instead of "Londonderry"?