Talk:Desert/Archive 1

Old comments
Aren't certain glaciated areas also deserts? Parts of Antarctica, etc? – Zork

Yes. The Gobi in China is also very cold, so temperature is not a requirement for being a desert, only precipitation.--BlackGriffen

The Gobi is in Mongolia. – Ortchel


 * In Antartica there are "dry valleys" that have no snow and are almost permanently frozen. I believe that they are some of the driest places on earth. I also understood that almost all of Antartica was a desert because there is very little precipitation as the air is too cold to hold moisture and there is no free water because it is all frozen as snow and ice.  The only reason there is a lot of snow and ice there is because none of it melts.  Can anyone confirm this? – kiwiinapanic 13:27 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Perhaps we should make limitations on the persistantcy of h20 not 2 exist, while it may not percipitate in antartica, there is certantly a considerable amount of ice ~ Xzilalnx2

Another type of desert not listed occurs when the soil is too acidic or otherwise incapable of growing plants. The small Rangipo Desert in New Zealand is one example, where the presence of three active ash volcanos has made the soil incapable of producing any vegetation other than thin scrub. Does this type of desert have a name, and shouldn't it be listed here? Grutness talk 12:47, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * There are other places where soils deter plant growth where a desert climate doesn't prevail; ultramafic soils can create low shrublands or heathlands, as can thin acidic peat soils, as can lava beds and rock outcrops. I don't know that, as defined here, these areas are really deserts.Tom Radulovich 06:02, 16 Apr 2010 (UTC)

It would be a nice deserts. ~ Eirik

We are discussing hydrological deserts.

1. Deserts that result from some cause other than climate – let us say chemical poisoning (should pollution get that bad), volcanic activity, or some reverse-oasis effect (a place in an otherwise lush area except for a near-surface limestone formation or a sandstone escarpment) aren't true deserts.

I have seen areas in Dallas, Texas (not quite in a dry belt) in which the combination of pollution and a near-surface limestone escarpment that prevents tree growth creating a desert-like terrain.

2. Polar areas should not be considered hydrological deserts unless they have stereotypical phenomena of deserts of lower latitudes. Such places may get little precipitation, but they also have evaporation low enough to allow water-logged soils.

Note that the dry valleys of Antarctica are not only free of glacial ice but have the salt lakes that one might expect in a classic desert – except that the salt lakes are iced over. Those dry valleys are hydrological deserts as well as places of extreme cold.

3. Temperature ranges are often severe because of the low humidity (and hence low dew points) that allow a low "floor" for night-time cooling. This does not apply in coastal deserts in which humidity is high but precipitation events are rare enough to create deserts (the Atacama). But it applies in the Gobi and the Sahara. Some inland areas at the same latitude as Havana in the Sahara get frosts even at low altitudes. The Gobi of course gets severe cold by mid-latitude standards.

An aside: the Romans learned to make ice by exploiting the night-time cooling within what is now Libya. Water or some other liquid (cream also works, hence ice cream) is covered by day, but exposed at night. The liquid freezes over several days as the liquid gets little of the warmth of the sun but is exposed to the full cooling of a cloudless night of low humidity. The ice could then be shipped to Rome for an Imperial treat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul from Michigan (talk • contribs) 08:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Canadian deserts

 * According to its article, Osoyoos, British Columbia is the only desert in Canada. Do any of you "desert experts" know if this is true and/or if some other extremely dry parts of British Columbia or possibly Alberta or even the Canadian Arctic might also qualify? --Ds13 16:36, 2005 Apr 17 (UTC)

Any such "deserts" are simply steppes. Should some small biome in British Columbia "qualify" as BWk or especially BWh, then that biome is best considered the result of a microclimate.--Paul from Michigan 07:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

landforms
I would like to know why deserts are importent. What is their relationship to other environments near by, and how, if at all, do they benifit these other environments.
 * Sand storms that pick up sediment from deserts can be a significant source of nutrients for other, more vegetated areas. The Amazon is quite nutrient-poor and benefits from sand storms from the Sahara. Daniel Collins 02:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC).

question
I would like to know some biotic and abiotic factors of a dry/ hot desert, and some ecological concerns and issues---Mac

I don't know about ecological concerns and issues, but I know that animals such as camels, lizards, etc. are biotic factors, and things like rocks, sand, and water are abiotic factors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Man united321 (talk • contribs)

Correct ~ Eirik

arid
Currently, arid redirects to this page. However, the term is not defined anywhere. This should be either defined here or on the arid page. Common Man 01:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I even didn't notice. Arid should have its own page. Aridity is a measure of the relative amount of annual precipitation to evaporative demand, whereas a desert is merely designated based on the amount of precipitation. Antarctica, while a desert, is not arid. Daniel Collins 02:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC).
 * Click on over to arid and give it a downpouring of content, if y'all feel so inclined. Daniel Collins 23:15, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Percentage of earth covered by deserts
This should be covered in the article. --Liface 08:02, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Why are deserts where they are? - it has something to do with cold water, but what is it?

Link needed in desert paragraph
In the first section called Desert, there is a bit where it talks about the terrain (Para 2 or 3 I think). It is missing a link for Reg, and I think this would help if I were a reader (which I am). Something should be done, don't you think?

Trivia
I think the trivia section is too small, and just looks tacky. Should it be removed?

Yes

Vandalism
I removed the anime references I found in this article. I would have reverted it but it had been edited since the vandalism. I wish people would read an article before adding to it. Maybe someone more qualified can go over the article more thoroughly. 翔太 「Shouta:talk」 07:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Temperature
500 degrees celsius temperatures? Please tell me someone did that on purpose.

Etymology
I deleted the reference to ancient Egyptian origins for the Latin word "desertum" (not "deserta"), which according to dictionary etymologies is the past participle of the Latin verb "deserere", to abandon or desert. This in turn is related to the word "serere", which has deep roots in Latin. This etymology is much more plausible than the ancient Egyptian derivation previously given, which lacked references, so I have replaced it with an explanation of the Latin word. Marco polo 21:22, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yet there remains a claim that the Latin word is derived from the Egyptian, which I find deeply problematic. Any such claim would require substantial evidence, because that's something that, as a rule, doesn't happen. Tsunomaru (talk) 00:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * In the article on Egypt, the etymological derivation is given as from old Egyptian deshret (red earth). Both articles should be consistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marthahout (talk • contribs) 14:27, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism
I removed some slang and obscene references to inappropriate material from the first paragraph and the third or fourth. Duran7 23:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Etymology
In the article on Egypt, the etymological derivation is given as from old Egyptian deshret (red earth). Both articles should be consistent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marthahout (talk • contribs) 14:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

High desert?
Currently high desert redirects to this article, while High Desert is a disambiguation page. (I plan to move "High Desert" to "high desert"). In Oregon we have the High Desert Museum and it is definitely treated like a separate type of desert. Anyone have enough knowledge to add a section on high desert to the desert types section? Katr67 17:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Russian/polish
I removed the following phrase as this is English wikipedia; having the etymology for the word in other languages seems a bit iffy, but I could possibly see this fitting into the article somewhere if it was worded a bit differently. Thoughts?: This word originally meant "abandoned place". Polish (pustynia) and Russian (пустыня) meaning of the word is similar and refers to emptyness, void. WLU 18:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Where section went wrong
I found out where the types of desert section went wrong (here), I'll try to correct it. WLU 22:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

A user pasted a large amount of plagiarized text from this page, including a word from the previous section accidentally. Since the text does not actually refer to deserts at all, I'm removing it completely. It's AGF gone awry! WLU 22:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I think I've removed all of the vandalism, info dumps, while keeping the useful text that was put in in between. WLU 22:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

12 Consecutive Months Without Rain
That's what it says for Extremely Arid. That can't be right. I know it's statistically possible, but I don't think it's correct (And I haven't got the book in front of me, naturally).Elijahmeeks 16:23, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That's what the reference says. 199.125.109.35 04:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Template:Deserts
I'm working on a re-write of the desert template here. I'd appreciate some assistance. Just fix it yourself or leave a comment on the page below the template. Thanks. :) vıdıoman  (talk • contribs) 03:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Đurđevački pijesci
This Croatian mini-desert isn't listed at the bottom of the page. Someone has to change that. MR.CRO95 (talk) 16:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be an article for the Croatian Mini-Desert... When you make one, you can add it here under "Europe".

Vandalism - rampant ?
Are the any objections if I nominate this article for semi-protection? There seems to be on going consistent IP vandalism. Ronnam (talk) 07:09, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

By all means, please do so! The amount of vandalism this article receives is absurd.  vıd ıoman  20:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Continuity
The list of biggest deserts on this page and the list on List of deserts by area are different. Can someone who has some degree of knowledge and access to sources on the subject (i have not) sort out these lists so that they are the same on wikipedia.  Greatestrowerever  Talk Page  23:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed, and I've put contradict-other templates on both articles. I suggest that any discussion take place on the List of deserts by area talk page to keep everything in one place. Dricherby (talk) 13:11, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Desert
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Desert's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "nyt": From Israel:  From Nefud:  From Chihuahuan Desert:  From Dasht-e Lut:  From Gobi Desert:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 04:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thar Desert
The article on the Thar Desert claims that it's the seventh largest desert in the world. That contradicts this article. 68.104.189.211 (talk) 16:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Proposal
A proposal has been made for a Desert WikiProject. mynameinc 18:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

classification
perhaps that instead of cold and hot deserts, the deserts could be classified by their texture (eg sanddesert, rock desert, ...) the terms arabian desert, ... are quite confusing —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.193.143 (talk) 16:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Formation of hot deserts
Formation of hot deserts part needs some work. 72.25.192.4 (talk) 16:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

What is the purpose of the Terminology section?
Currently, the Terminology section has only two sentences, the first seems like it belongs in the Definition section, and the second, I think, would make a nice closing statement to the lead section. If the article needs a Terminology section, then what information should it have that would not be in the Etymology, Definiton, or Classification sections? As a reader myself, I would expect it to have various terms related to deserts: Dune, Erg, Chaparral, Succulent, etc., but these (or some of them) are already in the Desert Features section. I would propose to move the two sentences currently in Terminology and get rid of the Terminology section header.--Brambleshire (talk) 18:17, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Arctic
Why is the Arctic included in the list of deserts, given that it is wholly (or, at least, mostly) ocean rather than land? Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Silence. I propose removing the Arctic from the list of deserts, and will do so in the next few days unless there is any objection here.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:36, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I completely agree that "Arctic" does not belong here. But Greenland might qualify as a (substantially smaller, but still large) desert, depending on its precipitation levels. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 22:02, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. The problem is that the whole table - and most of that section - is completely unreferenced, and we need reliable sources.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:40, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw that my edit was reverted. Whatever you decide guys, you should synchronize the information with some other pages - List of deserts by area and List of deserts. Since a lot of the sister projects are dependent on your decision, I suggest a careful editing. What do you think about the source for the Artics, stated in List of deserts by area - - you did not like it or you did not check it? BloodIce (talk) 18:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

File:Al-Dahna.jpg Nominated for Deletion

 * Commented on the deletion page, it is a NASA image, source is here. Mikenorton (talk)

Lack of Refences
this srticle needs Refimprove template and many sections need Unreferenced section template, but it's locked so i can't edit it. the refencing is so inadequate in this article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.176.212 (talk) 13:15, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Sign up for a wikipedia account, make some edits, and you'll be allowed to improve it. Remember, blogs cannot be used as references.  They are not reliable sources for encyclopedaic information.  Thegreatdr (talk) 00:10, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

and i man got bit by a spider and died — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minecustoms (talk • contribs) 15:59, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

World's largest deserts
This page refers to the Sahara as the second largest desert after the Antarctic desert. However the "sahara" page of Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara) stipulates that the Sahara is the third largest desert (after Antarctic and Arctic) with significantly different data. This assertion is linked to a hyperlink (http://geology.com/records/largest-desert.shtml). I understand that the size of the Arctic varies throughout the year and is decreasing overall but this seems like a coherence issue. 157.150.192.237 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC).
 * The Arctic is mostly sea rather than land, and there is an inconsistency between articles (and sources) over how that is addressed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:28, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Ice caps and extreme deserts can be distinguished as forms of wastelands. Polar deserts include those that are too cold (irrespective of availability of water) for significant vegetation and places (Antarctic dry valleys) which have physical features characteristic of warmer deserts (ephemeral streams and hypersaline lakes or ponds) except that the lakes or ponds have ice cover due to extreme cold. In such places evaporation, even if slight, overpowers the even tinier amounts of precipitation and blown-in snow even if they are surrounded or nearly surrounded by ice caps. Pbrower2a (talk) 12:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC) The Sahara Desert is covering most parts of Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.184.76.238 (talk) 12:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 March 2012
On the basic desert page there is a table which lists the top largest deserts. The Sahara is listed as #2 when it should be listed as #3 as per another wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deserts_by_area). The appropriate sizes of the deserts should also be updated to reflect the other wiki article mentioned in this request. Thank you!

End request --> Captainjack0000 (talk) 15:00, 21 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for improving Wikipedia! mabdul 13:38, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Martian Deserts
Is Earth not part of the Solar System? And, if it is, do we lack deserts? It seems to me that we do, perhaps that should be mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.156.39.223 (talk) 20:14, 10 May 2012 (UTC) (Answer: Earth is part of the solar system)
 * For that matter, what about the Moon? What about the inner planets that are too hot for liquid water to form, or the other outer moons that are too cold or have no atmosphere? The concept of a desert really doesn't seem very transferable to me, certainly not in a way that conveys anything meaningful about the local environment. I am not convinced that the section is worth keeping. Leushenko (talk) 18:03, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 July 2012
The photo: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baja_California_Desert.jpg#.7B.7Bint:filedesc.7D.7D which is shown on the desert main page is titled as Saguaro cacti...  In fact they are Cardon cacti Pachycereus pringlei. Saguaro do not live in Baja California where this photo was taken.

Pickerbr (talk) 15:13, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Fixed, good catch. Pfly (talk) 22:56, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

and the pickel fell down the well — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minecustoms (talk • contribs) 15:58, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I hope no one minds, but I put link on the above cacti, for quick reference by others. KatieBoundary (talk) 19:43, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 August 2012
Please change the area of the arctic desert in the table "The ten largest deserts" to 5,300,000 mi². The given values in km² and mi² differ by a huge amount.

The article List of deserts by area and its source suggest the value of ~13 million km² (about 5 million mi²) being the correct one. (I'm no expert and there might be different definitions what to call the "area" of the arctic... it's just about consistency km²/mi²)

Momentarylapse2004 (talk) 19:42, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ❌ - Do you have a source? Ob tund <em style="font-family:Courier">Talk 02:59, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Contradiction with another article
The arctic is listed as 13,726,937sq.km and 1,003,600sq.miles in this article but in the list of deserts by area it's 13,726,937sq.km and 5,300,000sq.miles. The former is wrong - this can be checked with a simple calculation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.147.52 (talk) 23:02, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup, using convert template: 13726937 km2. Fixed. Vsmith (talk) 02:14, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Why can't I edit this article?
I do not see an edit tab when I go to the article. I see one on the talk page, but not on the article page. Does anyone know why I can't edit this article? KatieBoundary (talk) 16:06, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I was told at Teahouse and on my talk page that the article is semi-protected from vandalism. I am tagging this "resolved". KatieBoundary (talk) 19:18, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Definitions - "less than enough to support growth of most plants"?
The existing opening paragraph does not define a desert very well, and is unsourced and misleading. "Less than enough to support growth of most plants" should not be in the opening paragraph, and maybe not in the article at all. It is not sourced. Many non-desert areas also have rainfall less than will support "most plants". It leads a casual reader to images of deserts without plants, when many extensive deserts are totally covered with plant life, such as Great Basin sagebrush scrub communities. So it is misleading as somehow characterizing deserts.

"Most plants" is vague and not helpful. E.g., if genetic engineering made a huge quantity of new desert species available, so the most plants could only survive in a desert, it would still be a desert, so this unsourced definition based on "most plants" is not a very good one. KatieBoundary (talk) 16:11, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Hello. Manual of Style/Lead section, an abstract doesn't need citations, if the point is repeated with references in the body. Cheers --Chris.urs-o (talk) 17:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Chris, but the body section on flora also has no inline references at all, and it does not seem to provide much support for the lead statements. KatieBoundary (talk) 18:39, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion for first sentence with reference
Since I have been told this article has "semi-protection" due to vandalism, before I do an edit, I will propose it here first and wait for comments before making the edit.

In Stephen Marshak's "Essentials of Geology" (a best-selleer used at many colleges, likely because of the explanatory visual images), he states - "Formally defined, a desert is a region that is so arid (dry) that it contains no permanent streams, except those that bring water in from temperate regions" - (to which might be added, "or from underground sources"). He goes on to (incorrectly) say "No more than 15% of a desert's surface has a cover of vegetation", which should say "often" before it, and he cites one of the standard quantititave criteria of annual rainfall - "25cm, or less each year". These are different criteria used by different people for different ends, and are not necessarily always consistent.

I propose the following as a very plain English sentence that is consitent with everythig in the article body and lead, is very easy for anyone at any level to read, and sums up material in a reliable and cited source -
 * "A desert is a landscape or region that is very dry, often has little coverage by plants, and in which streams dry up unless they are supplied by water from outside areas."

KatieBoundary (talk) 19:16, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone know what dispute caused semi protection?
Does anyone know what topic of dispute caused semi protection? KatieBoundary (talk) 19:38, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Doesn't appear to have been a "dispute" - rather it was simply constant vandalism. Vsmith (talk) 23:33, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Article locked - Request to remove false and poorly sourced sentence
This sentence is false and improperly sourced - "A non-technical definition is that deserts are those parts of the Earth's surface that have insufficient vegetation cover to support a human population.[11]"


 * Many deserts support a human population, e.g., in southwestern US, along riparian areas, and near oases.


 * The source claims to be a 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica article. This is outdated and supplanted by many better sources already in the article.


 * The source is not Encyclopedia Britannica 1911, but a Wiki. Wikis are not allowed as sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.233.141 (talk) 15:24, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Arctic Desert
The article starts with this: A desert is a landscape or region of land

However, Arctic Desert is not "a landscape or region of land", but mostly ocean. And, as this picture shows; Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden have over 300 mm as yearly rainfall, so they can't be desert. Or there are conflicting sources, at least. 82.141.119.130 (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Top-level sections
There are now 12 top-level sections (chapters), which is perhaps rather many. I wonder if we might not reorg slightly:


 * Etymology
 * Physical geography
 * --- Classification
 * --- Weathering processes
 * --- Dust storms and sandstorms
 * --- Major deserts (was 'Geography', needs minor reorg)
 * --- Features (was 'Desert features')
 * --- Water


 * Biogeography
 * --- Flora
 * --- Fauna


 * Human geography
 * On other planets (was 'Deserts on other planets')

How about it? Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * By and large, I like it. What do you propose for the "Mineral resources" and "Solar energy resources" sections? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh good. They could stay as they are, but since "resources" implies human exploitation, perhaps they instead belong in a human relations section, if we choose to have one... Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 August 2013 RE: Eliot reference, "In Poetry"
Why does the author include the reference to Eliot's poem The Waste Land? (See the "In Poetry" section.) Eliot's poem has nothing to do with deserts. In fact, there's quite a bit of water imagery throughout the poem. The reference is misleading.

Please remove this reference. It adds nothing to the article. It might confuse someone who has never read Eliot's poem.

194.119.202.159 (talk) 14:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:20, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

In culture
I think there's much that can be added to this section.

Most importantly, I feel we need some reference to the effect (or lack thereof) that the desert has had on the emergence of monotheism. It's been a hotly debated subject for a number of years.



A few examples, there are many more. Rest of the article's looking good though. -- Hillbillyholiday talk 13:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I know nothing on this subject but will look into it. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:24, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Omissions
I have briefly looked at a few areas of the article that interest me:
 * Water of metabolism - in my opinions this basic omission is serious. Snowman (talk) 13:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Added. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Introduced animals (camels in Australia). Snowman (talk) 13:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * In my opinion the section on Fauna is already quite long. It cannot include details of all species that live in deserts and adding this information would be disproportionate. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The heat shock proteins of the silver ant. Also, the silver ant is one of the most heat resistant of all creatures and this would be worth a mention. Snowman (talk) 13:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Added. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The use of the cooling effect of water evaporation that kangaroos use. Licking their fur on their "arms" for the cooling effect of evaporation. Snowman (talk) 13:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Kangaroos are not really desert creatures and are outside the scope of this article. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Specializations of the kangaroos reproductive system to make the most of favourable conditions. Snowman (talk) 13:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Kangaroos are not really desert creatures and are outside the scope of this article. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Animals from elephants to kangaroos dig for water in deserts where the water is just below the surface. Snowman (talk) 13:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Kangaroos and elephants are not really desert creatures. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Not all elephants life in deserts, but some do. See Elephant in the Namib desert. Snowman (talk) 22:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * OMG, they are so cool. Yes, a sentence about the three large mammals of the Namib. --(AfadsBad (talk) 23:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC))
 * The animals I mention in the single paragraph about mammals all have special adaptations to enable them to survive in deserts. I do not believe the elephant and kangaroo do. I have looked at the FA Elephant page and the Kangaroo page and can find no reference to this behaviour. If you want to add the information you are of course at liberty to do so, but I do not think it will improve the article. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:38, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * These elephants do! There is a brand new book on them, and they are extensively studied. However as to what is required of you for a GA, no need to worry, imo. You have plants and animals fom hot, col, windy, etc. --(.AfadsBad (talk))
 * And kangaroos do. The kangaroo article says "Then, if she mates and a second egg is fertilised, its development is temporarily halted." This halting is the specialised adaptation for making the best of favourable weather while it lasts. You might need to look into this elsewhere to find out more about it. Using the heat of evaporation of water to cool by licking the fur on their arms is not included in the kangaroo article, but it could be added sometime. Also, they dig in dried out water holes for the water below. These interesting facets would be worth a mention in the desert article as specialised survival strategies. I think that it would be worth including an animal from Australia for balance. Snowman (talk) 11:28, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Kangaroo response to heat added. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:19, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you add appropriate introductory sentences about metabolic water and add the ants and kangaroos to their appropriate sections? I think that good articles on major and broad topics are a necessary first step before featured article status, but more editors would be helpful. --(AfadsBad (talk) 14:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC))
 * I think that a technical article with half truths, omissions, and ambiguities does not help readers. Actually, I am currently working on improving the science in the "Sea" article, currently at FAC, which needs more editors and reviewers. Snowman (talk) 14:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I did not say it does. --(AfadsBad (talk) 15:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC))
 * I know, I wrote general line about what I think are some of the problems in technical articles and parts of this article in my own words. Snowman (talk) 19:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree it is a major problem on Wikipedia and worse in DYKs and GAs for some reason. People get hostile about corrections and comments also. What to do? The GA nominator on this article is willing to work and listen, but there are so many issues. --(AfadsBad (talk) 19:06, 1 October 2013 (UTC))
 * I have added information on silver ants and metabolic water. The article needs to retain balance and I think some of Snowman's suggestions are beyond its scope. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There are always limits, but kangaroos live in the Outback, listed as a desert. Maybe some sorting, Americas, kangaroo rat, Sahara ant, Australia kangaroo. However, I have not looked yet, the section may need trimming, as you say. --(AfadsBad (talk) 11:12, 2 October 2013 (UTC))


 * Easy-to-notice omissions are also about underground water in deserts: for example; wells, Great Man-Made River and Nubian Sandstone Aquifer System. Snowman (talk) 11:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Added. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I am puzzled about if this article is meant to include frozen deserts in detail? If so, the animals that are adapted to the cold should be included. Apparently the "Antarctic Desert" is the biggest desert and is included in the introduction and a table. Apparently parts of Greenland are a cold desert, so should the people that live there be included? Snowman (talk) 20:46, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Is there life in Antarctica, other than humans? I think if they are linke, maybe excess detail, not sure. --(AfadsBad (talk) 20:59, 1 October 2013 (UTC))
 * Not many humans, mostly scientists on Antarctica. Lots of Emperor Penguins, see also List of birds of Antarctica and List of mammals of Antarctica. Snowman (talk) 21:19, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I tend not to think of marine vertebrates as land living, but, the penquins on nest on land. --(AfadsBad (talk) 21:28, 1 October 2013 (UTC))
 * I have added some information on cold adapted animals. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * There may be a picture with more educational value that the canon firing in WWII. As far as I am aware, some aspects of desert warfare are like naval operations, because of the manoeuvring over vast spaces. Snowman (talk) 11:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Please feel free to change the image if you can find a more suitable one. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:22, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Dust devils, I think that they occur in deserts and other places. Snowman (talk) 12:08, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Added. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:22, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Beautiful, informative, interesting article
Thank you! Amandajm (talk) 01:47, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Water of metabolism
Re; "When fat is metabolised, 100 grams (3.5 oz) produces about 110 grams (3.9 oz) of water and this fact enables some desert animals to live on their fat reserves without recourse to liquid water.[73]". In human metabolism water is a product of the metabolism of fat, protein, sugars and carbohydrate and anything else containing hydrogen that combines with oxygen to form water. Can this statement in the article about desert animals be double checked, because it only includes metabolism of fat? Snowman (talk) 21:11, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I have made some amendments using two new refs. Snowman (talk) 13:24, 22 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Oxidation of carbohydrate and protein produces some water; that of fat produces more (i.e. 110%). Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:26, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * If you are watching this page, then why have you not replied before? How much fat do desert animals eat? How much of desert animals food is converted into fat? Fat may be relevant to camels, but I have do not know much about camel metabolism. Snowman (talk) 13:28, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Odd question. I haven't followed it for a while. How much ... probably not answerable (piece of string questions), but in the case of kangaroo rats, they eat mainly seeds (rich in carbohydrates, often poor in fats); the text mentions stored body fat, not food. I'll have a nose around for some figures, but the overall point is not at issue, water can come from metabolism. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:40, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * My question is partly because, I am surprised that you replied at 13:28 today, which is about two minutes after I posted the update here. Glucose = C6H12O6. This can be oxidized to produce water and carbon dioxide. Why would the article only mention water from stored body fat and exclude metabolism of food? Snowman (talk) 13:44, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It might look better with the amount of water produced from fats, carbohydrates, and also proteins for completion. Snowman (talk) 14:31, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, it looks a little better. Protein is not specially important in practice as most food stores are carbohydrate or fat. The figures in Morrison vary slightly from Mellanby's so I've replaced all of them for consistency. The timing was due to an edit-conflict, I had to try again, btw. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:29, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that the new version on the page seems OK from thinking about basic biochemistry and new refs, but I have not studied the comparative biochemistry in depth. However, your explanation above seems to mix up some ideas, possibly because you have little knowledge of biochemistry . Water of metabolism from protein is important for migrating birds, because of the catabolism of body protein while the birds are flying and not eating much. Also, water of metabolism does not depend on stored carbohydrate or fat being catabolised except when animals are starving, because water of metabolism is also produced from metabolism of food. Humans, normally produce about 200 to 300 ml of water of metabolism per day and none of this would be from overall loss of body carbohydrate nor fats nor protein, assuming that the individual did not loose any weight that day. Of course, it is possible to gain weight (gain body fat) and still produce water of metabolism from the metabolism of food (this is different to extracting the water content in the food eaten). Snowman (talk) 18:07, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Glad you like it. The food stores I referred to are those in the buried seeds etc that desert animals eat and rely on in the periods when fresh plant foods are scarce; I was not thinking of stores in animal bodies. Protein is obviously metabolized (net) in starvation, which might just be relevant in the desert; this article isn't about bird migration, nor about human metabolism, though of course we produce a little water, not enough to live on given how much we lose by all routes. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:46, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I read it your comment wrong, because I thought it meant stores of food in the body and not food stores in the ground. Do you mean that desert animals actively store their food in the ground like squirrels? I was just listing some examples to include birds and humans to make it easier to understand. However, I think that you have a grasp of it, so I have put a strike through my over presumptive assumption above. Humans produce about 10% of their water from metabolism of water. Of course, in mammals water is needed to excrete the nitrogen break down products produced by the catabolism of protein. Snowman (talk) 19:01, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
 * That's ok. Some may gather grains to store, but all live off the wisely-stored food laid down in seeds or other plant parts, whether freshly gathered or not. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:48, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
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World's largest deserts - still contradicting
This page refers to the Arctic as the second largest desert after the Antarctic desert. However, the list of largest deserts (for which the link appears at the top of this section) doesn't even list the Arctic. Information for the Kalahari is strangely contradictory too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.20.237 (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Did you know
--117.203.6.125 (talk) 15:28, 26 January 2015 (UTC)Bold textItalic text All the hot deserts have skeletons of fishes found in them.

whatever
hello a girl has been here and she is really smart her teachers were cant tell u causes ur gonna find out wh did this any waysbye see u later peoples — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nawal the boss (talk • contribs) 22:30, 10 December 2015 (UTC)