Talk:Deshastha Brahmin/Archive 1

Moved discussions
The user who thinks Sarpotdar is as common as Kulkarni or Deshpande should check his local telephone book / directory. We are only talking about number of people with these surnames and not implying anything else so please remove that name from the article. If you consider your family to be important then you can add that name to the prominent deshastha list or start a brand new article.

Thanks.

wikipedia has removed " related ethnic groups" section from the main article. any suggestions on who is ethnically close to us ? Kannada Deshastha, I guess in addition to Kokanastha and karhade. Thanks.

Hey Pamri, good start. keep it up --Vyzasatya 18:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Please do not write names in the notable people section if a page written on them does not exist. If you would like to, please feel free to write the page yourself. Storms991 01:01, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Harshad Joshi, PLEASE stop advertising your irrelevant blogs!!! Storms991 16:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Is the description correct?
I think it is more of knowing by heart and reciting of the specific veda that defines the Deshastha Rigvedi or Yajurvedi. Since any single veda does not dictate all the religious ceremonies, it is probably not correct to say that following one of them for the ceremonies determines whether Rigvedi or Yajurvedi. This is just my personal opinion.

Bold text Deshastha Brahmins belong to a root started from Southern part of India. These brahmins specialised in particular veda and sutra and sahkaha. The gotras though denote a particular origin from a Rishi, infact it is a group of Rishis Eg. Vasihtha, Koundinya etc. belong to one group and Vasishtha, Aindrapramada, Bharadvasu belong to another group. After identifying the root, the type of veda followership is also identified - Rigvedi, Yjurvedi, Samavedi etc. (No Atharva vedi). After the veda, the specialisation in Sutra and then Shakha are also identified. Thus, the family and the scholorship of a Brahmin was grouped. It may be noted that after Munja-Upanayana, a brahmin has to do Sandhyavandanam. After completing Sandhyavandanam the brahmin does a Shira Sashtanga Namaskara identifying himself, to the Gods and Teachers (Guru). Thus the identity does not stop at Veda but goes further too. It is called "PRAVARA". Eg: Vasihtha-Aindrapramada-Bharadvasu- Tripravaranvita-Vasishtha Gotrotpannah-RUGVEDAsya-ASHVALAYANA Sutra-SHAKALA SHAKHA Adhyayi-Tells his name and salutes Chatussagara Paryanta GO-BRAHMANAS also along with GOD. Hence, the Rigvedi is only a Major classification. Among Deshasthas we have only Rigvedis and Yajurvedis. Down south you find more Samavedis among other brahmins. This ios the speciality of Deshasthas.

Please show the correct history of deshastha brahmins.Gotra system is of aryan race who are in northern part of India like Rajputs.The truth is Deshastha brahmins are brahmins by proffesion created by kshatriyas for there convinience. Please accept the history and donnot create wrong history and mislead people.

Veda shakhas amongst Deshasthas
This article has facts wrong when it says that Krishna Yajurveda is irrelvant to Maharashtra. Chitpawan & Devrukhes both have the Hiranyakeshi Shakha of KYV amongst them. Near Nasik we also have the Maitrayanis and in Nagpur the Charaks who are also Krishna Yajurvedi. Tirguls are another subcaste who belong to Taittiriya. Also there may be Taittiriyas amongst the proper Deshasthas as the old gazzetteers mention both Rigvedis & Krishna Yajurvedis amongst the proper Deshasthas. The traditional definition of Deshasthas did not include Madhyandins & Kanvas —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.98.84 (talk) 06:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ragsvet (talk • contribs) 12:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Family name and kuldevata table
This is a good table. However, it is incomplete. I would suggest just giving a list of gotras, shakhas, kuldevatas and family names. Tkul 02:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)tkul

Famous Deshasthas
What happened to the list of Famous Deshastha Personalities ? --Sanjaydh 16:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm again editing to include our ethnic community is panch dravid. I really do not understand why that has been removed......Do you have a proof for it.Deshastha are dravids from Maharastra and south India.There looks, there colour and their characteristics shows it.Indo aryan race are only Marathas(Kshatriya are aryans from north) and Vaisyas.The others like Shimpi,Nhavi,Mali are mixture of Dravids and tribal from China,Phillipines etc.You can check the DNA for proof.

First they served the Maratha empire. After the fall of the empire, they served the local kings, Jahagirdars, Palegars and even the local small time Sultans. Some of our ancestors were quite proficient in Marathi, Kannada, Samskrita, Farsi, Urdu and even English.

Our ancestors were from Maharashtra who were Jahagirdars, settled at a place called Karjagi in present Haveri district of Karnataka. Generation after generation slowly lost touch of Marathi and later lost the Marathi Sir name too. Because of the large land holding and as our ancestors had a very huge Wade (Waa Day-dwelling) in the area, we were given a Sir name of Doddamani - a typical Kannada Sir name of north Karnataka not specifying any caste/sect. We have Doddamanis among Muslims, Lingayats, SCs, Shepherds etc., apart from Deshastha Brahmins. Similarly one will find Hulmani, Sannamani, and the the names of the villages they hail from as their Sir name. Our type of Deshasthas have completely lost Marathi touch and we call ourselves Smarta Deshastha Kannada (Rigvedi / Yajurvedi). We do have our Family lady Diety Tulajabhavani of Tulajapur and also Tirupati Laxmi Venkateshwara as male God. Our existance as Kannada smarta Deshastha is wide spread. We do have Gondhal which we call Gondla in Kannada.Smilarly you will find Deshasthas speaking Telugu, Hindi, Tamil, Tulu, Gujarathi too.

The Kannada Deshasthas mentioned in context above by Sanjaydh are the Deshasthas of Madhwa-Vaishnavas-followers of likes of Raghavendra swamy. They are not Shaivites but Vashnavites and have nothing to do with Smarta Kannada Deshasthas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ragsvet (talk • contribs) 12:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Vikram Panidt: A Deshastha
Please check your source/reference. Looks like he is a Karhade Brahmin. The wiki page on Vikram Pandit has been updated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.6.11.39 (talk) 16:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Wakatak: A Deshastha Dynasty?
I read a Marathi article stating that Wakatak and Satvahan dynasties were Deshastha brahmins? Can someone verify this information. Please quote references to support this claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.6.11.39 (talk) 16:20, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Deshastha couple pic
The article contains several photographs, some of them of celebrities like Sonali Kulkarni and also of a women clad in traditional nine yard saree. A photograph of a modern deshastha couple was removed for being irrelevant. The article is of interest to anthropology and showing a picture of a modern deshstha couple is perfectly relevant. Otherwise, how would people not familiar with deshatha know what modern deshastha look like ? --74.9.96.122 (talk) 13:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it a policy of wikipedia that pictures of non-notable persons should not be included ? The picture of the deshastha couple was there for non-Maharasthrians or Non-indians to see what modern deshastha people look like. If you have a better picture of a whole deshastha family (husband, wife kids or even with grand parents) then please remove "the couple" picture and put the family picture there. I believe the deshastha article comes under anthropology and so the having that picture there is completely justified. Thanks.--24.187.26.104 (talk) 14:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Deshastha couple pic was removed because
 * They are non-notable people not recognizable figures or celebrities
 * They are not wearing traditional clothes too, so they can be used as model for what deshsthas traditionally wear. Punjabi dress and sweaters really do not qualify as traditional.
 * The article already has common deshastha pics like saree-clad woman or the girls in traditional dresses.
 * They look any other Maharashtrians, what's so special about them? --Redtigerxyz (talk) 05:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

You say and I quote "They look any other Maharashtrians, what's so special about them?" That is precisely my point I am trying to illustrate. They do like other Maharashtrians (say unlike Kokanstha brahmins. Also modern contemporary Marathi women including deshastha do wear punjabi dress. This article is not only about Deshastha history. It is an ethnographic or anthropological account and therefore the picture is justified.I don't know where you live but it seems you think only Indians or marathi people would be interested in this article. Don't forget this is an encyclopedia and anybody around the world will be interested in it.--74.9.96.122 (talk) 12:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC) As I said before, if you have a better picture of a contemporary Deshastha family then by all means add that and remove the other picture. I think you did a good job in removing the "duplicate" picture of Gudi padwa. However, i didn't see the justification for removing the rangoli picture. Regardless, public domain images are hard to come by and so I would exercise caution in removing them unless you have strong justification to do so. Thanks. --24.187.26.104 (talk) 16:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Surname; Gotra; origin
KHALADKAR; DESHASTHA RUGVEDI BRAHMIN; VISHWAMITRA GOTRA: PUNE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.246.36.184 (talk) 12:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

BOBDE;DESHASTHA RUGVEDI BRAHMIN;KAUSHIK GOTRA; you cannot simply list all of them - there are too many. I can give another: Kulkarni; Deshastha Rigvedi Brahmin; Harita Gotra; Maharashtra/Karnataka

Deshastha residence
This reference gives 35,000 as the number of total Marathi speakers in USA 

Given that, one is justified in deleting a sentence that claims 30,000 deshatha migrated to USA between 1950-2000. --74.9.96.122 (talk) 16:36, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Opression of Bhakti saints
The Deshastha article rightly claims Dnyaneshwar as one of their own. The article however does not contain any content on the harassment of Dnyaneshwar and his family after being stripped of his brahmin caste. There isn't any mention of the oppression suffered by the various non-brahmin/outsider saints like Tukaram, Janabai, Bahinabai, etc at the hands of Deshastha brahmins. Shouldn't that be mentioned at least in a few lines somewhere in the article? Thanks. Authentickle (talk) 22:37, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If you've got a reliable source as a reference, please feel free to add it to article. Just make sure that you don't give undue weight to one particular theory. utcursch | talk 14:28, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Major edits completed; Several problems remain
I just finished making major changes to the article. Here's a summary of what I've done:


 * 1) Re-organization of the article
 * 2) Renamed some sections (eg: Population and geographical location to Demograpics)
 * 3) Merged other sections related to culture
 * 4) Removed the huge table that was causing WP:Article size warning. Provided a link to the separate article that contains the list
 * 5) Created a new section for list of prominent Deshasthas with the intention of keeping it brief to a 2-3 lines and provided a link to the main separate article that contains the actual list
 * 6) Substantiated several claims by providing citations where ever they could be found in literature. These are a total 64 in number
 * 7) Requested citations in 23 other places where several claims have been made. I tried to find these citations myself but did not find any, particularly those pertaining to Deshastha migration patterns within and outside of India. Original editors are requested to provide these citations.
 * 8) Added new content with citations. This includes demographics of the Deshastha population, history and further classification of the caste.

A few problems still remain. it should be OK to remove one of the guddi picture. with chakli a better picture can be substituted. The diwali killa was made by Marathi kids in USA and in a way shows contemporary killa design.Culture is never static so that picture should stay.Ditto for the contemporary deshastha couple. A while ago one of the editors said the couple is non-notable and the woman is wearing punjabi outfit. Again, culture and way of dressing changes and this picture illustrates that for an article that is basically an ethnograph of interest not just to Indians but to the rest of the world ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.9.96.122 (talk) 14:02, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) The article has a total of 17 pictures which seems to be too many for an article of this size. Some of the pictures can be removed:
 * 2) The Chakli picture looks like an advertisement for the manufacturers of the snack.
 * 3) There are two pictures of Gudis. One should be good enough.
 * 4) An IP editor once made this comment about the Deshastha couple picture ("Dude in the picture has mild mental retardation" []) On another occasion, the same editor said The man shown in the picture, Mr. Bawlatrao Yede is mentally challenged. [] While I don't agree with those comments which border on vandalism, I think there's no need of this picture. They could be any couple anywhere in the world. There's nothing Deshastha about it.  74.9.96.122 (talk) 13:07, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 5) Perhaps a better picture of the Dnyaneshwar statue can be found
 * 6) The picture of the Diwali fort doesn't seem to the traditional mud-clay-rock based picture with Mavalas and lacks other cultural features.
 * 7) Aside from the 23 citations needed, there are many other unsubstantiated claims in the article, particularly in the culture sections. These need to be cited.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zuggernaut (talk • contribs) 06:26, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi 74.9.96.122 - I respect your opinion and surely this article is of interest to everyone on the planet, not just Indians. However this is an encyclopaedia not an ethnography. The killa or fort, the Chakli and the Deshastha couple photos are all US based. Since the majority of the Deshastha population is still based in India, it is unfair to them to hijack this article and provide a biased account. More importantly it would be an encyclopedic entry that paints the wrong picture for the reader.


 * I would recommend that we replace the picture of the couple and the fort with this picture of the Deshastha students reciting the Rig Veda or one of these where the students are performing the sun-salutation or the suryanamaskar   . We can also replace one Gudi picture by one which shows a meeting of a relevant organization being conducted.


 * I did not see any copyright notice anywhere on the website so re-use of those pictures here should be OK. I don't have experience with images and copyright issues so I'm seeking advice from administrators/experienced editors about whether we can re-use these pictures directly or if any actions are required, permissions to be obtained before we use them.


 * Zuggernaut (talk) 20:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I never said the couple were from USA and is not implied. As I said before, the couple convey a contemporary couple. As you and others may have said that they look just like other Indians. Again the same point: It illustrates that in appearance deshastha are closer to the "average Indian" appearance than say the kokanastha. This is an encyclopedia for the world and perhaps there are several thousand "ethnographs" describing various communities around the world so please don't be stuck on that word. Thanks.


 * OK, can you provide more information about the couple? Where and when was this picture taken? Where does this couple live? What was the occasion? Was it before or after some Deshastha ceremony, if so was it a marriage, munja, etc. Again, this is an encyclopaedia and not an ethnographic study. These pages are showing up in the top 2-3 search engine results so it is important that we paint the most accurate picture possible. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I will also setup a vote/poll in the Wikipedia way to obtain a consensus on whether we should keep the couple picture or not. I assume we are in agreement to replace/remove the chakli and killa pictures. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 19:06, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

It is not my picture so I can not give further details. But pleaase note that copy right free pictures are hard to come by. if this is a deshastha couple then keep it. I also suggest you look for a recent picture of a deshastha family and when you find it, replace the photo of the couple with the new family picture.74.9.96.122 (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * We don't necessarily have to replace the picture with another similar one. The article doesn't lose too much by removing the picture of which there are one too many already. I will setup a poll for the removal of the picture. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 20:15, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Recent content from and IP poster (118.67.243.2). No sources.
An IP poster from the IP address 118.67.243.2 recently undid one sourced line of mine and replaced it with the following content. I am undoing that change and opening this section so we can discuss, achieve consensus and make changes, if required. My line that was deleted was is shown in this diff Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 19:13, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

During the time of Nanasaheb Peshwas, many decisions taken in favour of his close relatives from Konkan those are:
 * 1) Nanasaheb removed Deshastha Brahmin Purandare a staunch loyal servant of Maratha empire since Shivaji’s time and replaced his “Diwan” (head of accounts) role and gave it to his son- Sadashiv.
 * 2) Sadhashiv alias Bhau then made transfers of many deshathsa clerks, accountants to their respective villages and replaced them with chitpavan migrants from Konkan this happened during 1750 to 1753. Due to large influx of Chitpavan migrants a Peth (region of city) was developed, bhau gave his own name that is called as Sadashiv Peth.
 * 3) Town of Sangli- Miraj was actually recaptured by Pratinidhi (one of the Astapradhan from Satara district) during war with Moguls at the time of Shahu Chatrapati (Grandson of Shivaji). NanaSaheb gave Jahagir to Patwardhan – chitpavan from Konkan in spite of the fact that the Patwardhans have not played any role in recapturing battle of Miraj.
 * 4) Nanasaheb and Peshwas after him discriminated many Deshastha, Karhade Brahmins (Marathas as well) and gave police, administrative and diplomatic pots to chitpavans like Patwardhan – Pune represtative of Baroda state under control of the Gayakwads, Naval head post to Lele – a relative of Peshwa, Ketkar- Kotwal post of Pune.
 * 5) From Shivaji Maharaj ‘s time such postings used to happen based on years of experience like Kanhoji Angre’s promotion happened after 13 years that too due to his performance in Suvanadurga Battle or decision of appointment of State reprenstaives in Hyderabad and Jinji were taken based on seniority but during Peshwa ‘s time of 1750 to 1815, there have been cases that people with few months of experience or Soldiers at age of 20 were promoted based on illogical criteria like Peshwas’s relative or born in Chitapavan family etc.

Reasons for undoing the changes

 * Most of the above points have been already covered in the concise statement in the lead: The hitherto ritually, socioeconomically and brahminically inferior Konkanastha acheived parity with the Deshasthas in the nepotistic era that followed the passing of the Peshwai in Konkanastha hands in 1713.     During this era the Konkanastha unleashed social warfare against the Deshasthas, ruining and disgracing Deshastha Brahmins.


 * It has been repeated in the relevant section: After the appointment of Balaji Vishwanath Bhat as Peshwa, Konkanastha migrants began arriving en masse from the Konkan to Pune where the Peshwa offered all important offices to the Konkanastha caste. The Konkanastha kin were rewarded with tax relief and grants of land. Historians point out nepotism    and corruption during this time. The Sahyadri Khanda which contains the legend of the origin of the Konkanastha has been carefully suppressed or destroyed by the Konkanastha Peshwas. Crawford, an early Indologist describes how a Brahmin reluctantly produced the manuscript when he asked for it and that Baji Rao, in 1814, ruined and disgraced a respectable Deshastha Brahmin of Wai found in possession of a copy of the Sahyadri Khand.

The Konkanasthas were waging a social war on Dehasthas during the period of the Peshwas. By late 18th century Konkanasthas had established complete political and economic dominance in the region. Richard Maxwell Eaton states that this rise of the Konkanastha is a classic example of social rank rising with political fortune.


 * I could not find sources for the Patwardhan/Sangli claim. Contrarily, I found a book which says that the Patwardhan were rewarded the jagir because they were excellent generals. If you have sources, you can start another article under the title Chitpavan atrocities during the Peshwa period 1713-1818 or a more general Atrocities by foreigners on Indians/Maharashtri People or something like that. Feel free to include British, Genghis Khan, Gazni, Ghori, Aurangazeb/Mughal atrocities in the second article. I am sure there is plenty of well sourced material you can include in such an article. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 19:43, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Looking for consensus for removal of "A Deshashta couple" picture
The picture of the Deshastha couple in the article should be removed. Reasons for and against are summarized in the table below:

Although a vote/consensus was never conducted, over the years, other people have asked to remove the picture (for detailed discussion see here).

I am calling for a vote on whether we should remove this picture or not. Please vote in the next 1 week. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk)

Votes
I vote to keep the picture24.187.26.104 (talk) 00:26, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) I vote for the removal of the picture. Zuggernaut (talk) 20:29, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Do urban deshastha in Maharashtra wear  traditional dress these days such as nine yard saree for women and dhoti for men ? As another editor has commented earlier, how do you depict contemporary deshastha people ? Although, earlier I voted to keep the picture, remove the picture but only  if you can find a copy right free picture of a full deshastha family as a substitute. As they say, a picture speak a thousand words, so my friend, please be careful about being hung up on there being too many photos in the article. When I find time, i want to include videos and audios to make it a full multi-media article24.187.26.104 (talk) 00:42, 25 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I would be interested and glad to help you in adding multi-media content to make this article better. Please post your queries in this space if you are looking for any ideas or help. I am sure there are others who will be able help. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 15:10, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I am removing the photo, as apart from the arguments of the Zuggernaut (such as non-notable people and non-traditional dress et al), it violates personality rights too, meaning that these people may not have given permission to upload their picture on wikipedia. There is also plenty of distracting clutter in the background. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 11:40, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Calling off the poll
I just came across WP:Polls and it seems to suggest that we arrive at a consensus by discussion rather than by polling. As a result I am call off this effort to arrive at a decision by polling. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Removal of some festivals
The festivals section contains a whole lot of festivals that are generic, i.e., they are celebrated by many other Hindu castes and communities. I feel we should just keep the uniquely Deshastha festivals or festivals that have plenty of emphasis in the Deshastha communicty such as the Ganesha festival, Gudi Padwa, etc. We can simply add a line for the other festivals like Deshasthas also celebrate other common Hindu festivals like Diwali, Navaratri, Janmashtami, Ram Navami.... If your argument holds, then why even keep mention of Ganeshotsav or Gudi padwa in the article? These festivals are important to all Marathi Hindu communities, not just Deshastha and will be covered in article on Marathi people.

One can say this topic is covered in so and so article and the other in .........., you get my point. This way if want to, you can in theory reduce the deshastha article to a stub. A lot of work has gone into preparing this article by a number of editors over the last four years. According to wikipedia policy you are free to edit and I can't stop you but please think before you do a complete makeover. So far you have not touched the content but be carecareful in what you remove.74.9.96.122 (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Despite moving the huge list of surnames to it's appropriate location this article touches the 60KB limit. I don't think we need to worry about it being reduced to a stub. I've been adding well sourced (about 65 references so far) and well researched material that relates to unique Deshastha matters, such as Deshastha demographics, sub-sub castes, Bhaskara II, Kamalakara, Bhavabhuti, etc. You are right, there is nothing uniquely Deshastha about Ganesh, Gudi Padwa festivals in present day. I will research history to find the unique Deshastha connection and move the rest to a new, appropriate "master" list which all communities can reference in their articles. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Kokanstha and Deshastha
Please, pleaae, please, stop comparing the two communities. This is not a compare and contrast essay. Besides wikipedia requires a NPOV, neutral point of view and your kokanstatha /deshastha comparison is going that way. For example,you wrote "kokanstha brahmins started ganeshotsav". It was Lokmanya Tilak, regarded as "father of Indian Unrest" who initiated the public festival and one of the first public installation was by Pune market traders, most of whom were not even brahmins let alone Kokanastha. I don't know what library in a USA University you use but if the books are hundred year old then the western writers, mostly British, will have that colonial mentality in their writing. I liked your earlier edits however, now they are getting too political. I also did not like you moving the festival section. To a reader who is interested in the deshastha community would be more interested in the daily culture including the festivals being in one place rather then the minor polital matters. Perhaps you can start a separate page on that. 24.187.26.104 (talk) 01:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the person you are looking for is from the IP address 118.67.243.2. He or she is the one who repeatedly keeps on posting 5 bullet items regarding that community. I have undone his/her changes and explained the situation here but the person is persistent and has posted the same 5 items again in this section . I have no interest in comparing the two communities as you can see from hundreds of my posts and in fact I am an advocate for removing the entire section titled Deshastha and Konkanastha relationship which already existed when I started editing. However the histories of the communities are intertwined and a comparison is inevitable at times.
 * You have undone 4 of my changes including one in which references were removed . In another one you added "of all sub-castes" which completely twists the meaning of well-sourced material and puts contradictory words in the mouth of the cited author. You requested a citation for this but it already exists at the beginning of the paragraph. There is no point repeating it again and again for every line.
 * My POV is as neutral as can be. Any positive things I mention about the Konkanastha community are quickly twisted as can be seen here and here  altering the meaning of the original referenced authors. You make these changes without ever providing any sources. A similar line balancing the views by providing positive accomplishments of the Konknastha community was removed from the lead.
 * You seem to have an RSS type agenda as is seen here . I have none.

If someone states the facts in support of an argument then does it mean they have an agenda. Like it or not, The RSS has been influential in one way or the other for decades. Since you say that deshastha have not produced any leaders then that statement has to be corrected. I don't know why you removed references to Pramod Mahajan and Manohar Joshi who have been influential deshastha ministers in the last ten years. 74.9.96.122 (talk) 20:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As a compromise, let's do away with the insipid reference to the cuisine but we need to restore the other changes you've done not because they are referenced and well sourced but because you've added words that twist the meaning and attribute it to the cited author.
 * Regarding moving the festivals list, I feel this is the appropriate way to improve the article. Take a look at WP:Article size and you will see the reasons why we need to keep only things that are unique to Deshasthas here.
 * I will also restore the positive statement about the Konkanastha community in the lead from one of my earlier leads. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Tilak, Manohar Joshi and Mahajan
The final edit in the Tilak/Ganesh festival matter is yours so the issue is closed.

Manohar Joshi and Pramod Mahajan are not of the same stature as of Tilak, Gokhale, Savarkar, etc. They might be contemporary but their accomplishments are puny as compared Tilak, Gokhale, Savarkar, etc. Moreover, they get a mention in the list of prominent Deshasthas. No need to add them here again. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:35, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The people you mention all had their accomplishments before independence. I respect them all.However, I repeat, history did not end in 1947. I don't know what your background is but Manohar Joshi ( albeit with blessing of Bal Thakare) is one of the few non-congress persons to be chief minister of Maharashtra. Same goes for Pramod Mahajan at national level.74.9.96.122 (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * After 1947 there was Vinoba Bhave who was a much larger figure than both of the names mentioned here. Just being a chief minister is not good enough. There have been numerous CMs in Maharashtra and there's a new CM every 4-5 years. Unless there is published literature compliant with WP:Sources that clearly shows that someone is really outstanding and in the league of the names mentioned here, we should not include it here. Zuggernaut (talk) 05:10, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Article size
The size of this article at the last edit was 57 kilobytes. WP:Splitting recommends considering a split at 60 kilobytes. I fee there is some redundant content in this article. Things like religious customs can be moved to a separate list similar to List of festivals of Deshastha, Konkanastha and Karhade Brahmins since all these communities share the customs and rituals. If there is something uniquely Deshastha about a certain custom or ritual, we can include that in a small sub-section in this article. Not only will this help reducing the article size but articles of several other communities can simple link it with theirs and also help expanding/maintaining the list. I hope this sounds reasonable. Zuggernaut (talk) 04:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Development of Marathi, festivals such as Gudi Padwa, Ganapati, etc.
Given that the Deshasthas are the oldest group of Brahmins residing the state of Maharashtra for more than a millennium and pre-dating the Marathi language, it is likely that they were the ones who developed the Marathi language and also the other Maharashtrian religious customs and rituals that are now adapted by other communities today. If you have any published literature, either in Marathi or English that accurately confirms this, please post the content along with the title of the book, author, date of publication, ISBN, etc —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zuggernaut (talk • contribs) 17:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Deshastha brahmins are a living community. not just something from history
This article is turning just into history of deshastha and also on well-known deshastha. Editor zuggernaut has moved the festival section to a new page which affects the flow of the article and as said before more emphasis is given on history rather than contemporary life.. Sad ! 74.9.96.122 (talk) 14:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You need to discuss your concern about well-known deshastha and about a large chunk of un-sourced material in the history section with IP editor 118.67.243.2.
 * As I've said before, separating the festivals to a separate list is beneficial for all involved communities who share those festivals, i.e., Konkanastha, Karhade. I have provided a link in appropriate places for articles of all three communities.
 * An additional advantage in doing this is that we will have more contributors, maintaining and expanding the list. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, more contributors to the festival link who have questioned the "context" ! Can I suggest that you  create an entirely new article on Maharashtrian brahmins ? That would accommodate all the sub-caste rivalries, hostories  as well as the common festivals.74.9.96.122 (talk) 21:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Sure, someone questioned the context, we fixed it. After a while someone will question something else, the Wikipedia community will fix that and so on. The important thing is that List of festivals of Deshastha, Konkanastha and Karhade Brahmins now has 3 links coming in to it rather that just being dead and clustered text in one article. Over time the list is bound to get better. Feel free to recommend a shorter name for the list if you can think of something Zuggernaut (talk) 04:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of content that is well sourced and compliant with Wikipedia policies
user:74.9.96.122 recently removed a picture with it's informative caption without prior warning or discussing here. On multiple occasions in the past, the same IP address has removed well sourced/cited content that was compliant with Wikipedia policies. This was removed because it did not agree with user:74.9.96.122's POV. This is a repeating pattern as can be seen here.

I am asking that we all refrain from removing content that's being added after careful and meticulous work. If you have a problem about something that's in the article, please discuss on the talk page rather than directly removing it. Zuggernaut (talk) 05:02, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Mr/Ms Zuggernaut, 1.you removed all the pictures pertaining to the festivals but then added a new picture of tilgul without discussion. Surely, that picture should have gone on the new festival page you created. 2.Again you also talk about size of the article. Pictures obviously require more space. 3. The picture could have gone on the list of deshastha article. 4. I have worked on this article for four years and I actually complimented you for the task you took on recently. But be careful in what you add. Now you are completely changing the tone of the article from how it has been for the last four years. As I said some of your information would fit nicely on a new article on Maharashtrian brahmins rather than just an article on deshastha.74.9.96.122 (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

74.9.96.122 (talk) 17:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Three pictures (Ganapati, Gudi and Puran Poli) were removed inadvertently due to an error while moving content to the List of festivals of Deshastha, Konkanastha and Karhade page as is seen here.  I have restored two of those. You are welcome to delete the Tilgul picture and bring back the Puran Poli picture. In my opinion, the Tilgul picture is better than the Puran Poli though.
 * We discussed to an agreement to remove the Killa/fort and the redundant Gudi picture.


 * At the time of my first edit the article had a note the top and indeed there were just 2 references. I have added 73 references since then which fall in the following categories:


 * 1) Substantiate existing claims in the article by providing one or multiple references. The substantiated content may have included material you have added over 4 years.
 * 2) Corrected existing claims (sometime to mean exactly the opposite) since sources/published literature showed so, i.e., Agrarian land reform, Treament of Dalits.
 * 3) Added new content with references. This in the following areas:
 * Deshastahs are the oldest and original Brahmins of this area. They are as old as the Vedas
 * Definition of Desha
 * Demograhpics - numbers about the population of the Deshasthas
 * Castes that claim to be Deshasthas
 * Deshastha contributions to literature, philosophy, mathematics, military and administration
 * Standard Marathi is one that's spoken by Deshastha Rigvedi
 * Details of recent anti-Brahminism

You are resistant to any criticism of the Deshasthas which is required to maintain a NPOV. You will not allow well-sourced content that shows this, even if it is 5%-10% of the whole article. An example of this is the line you have repeatedly removed from the lead and the related section about Deshasthas failing to feature prominently recently. 

The way I see it, Maharashtrian Brahmin page can only be a disambiguation page.

Due to a lack of references, here's some misinformation this article had been spreading for the last several years, possibly 4 years:
 * 1) Brahmins suffered from agrarian land reform when in fact the sources I've included show that they continued to be absentee land lords as of 1985.
 * 2) Practices related to untouchablilty had died out. My citations show that Dalits have simply been ghettoized.

You will find that images don't count to the article size if you read wp:article size closely. Zuggernaut (talk) 20:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Demographics
Similarly, Deshastha Brahmins can also be found in other formerly Maratha ruled cities of Indore, Ujjain, Gwalior, and Dhar. Other cities with Deshastha population include  Vijayawada, Bengaluru, Chennai and Coimbatore.

In spite of the fact that they are from Deccan plateau, many Deshashtas migrated to the coastal city of Mumbai during British Rule in search of administrative and clerical jobs. Girgaon, Dadar and Vile Parle were stronghold for their population at that time. There was also migration to other cities like Pune and Nagpur or Maratha ruled cities outside Maharashtra  like Indore. A second wave of migration took place after the formation of Maharashtra state (in 1960) when many families settled in the greater Mumbai metropolitan area and particularly Thane, Navi Mumbai and Dombivli. These new migrants predominantly found work in the service sectors like government, teaching (education), railways, banking/insurance and engineering. Few Deshastha also succeeded  in starting their own industries in Mumbai. Examples include Garware Polymers, Parkhe Paper Mills and Sudha Kulkarni-Murthy’s Infosys in 1981. During last few decades, many Deshasthas have started industries in other cities of Maharashtra like Pune, Nashik, Aurangabad and Nagpur; those are in the fields of IT, Ethanol, Rubber, Engineering Equipments etc. Brahmins have been migrating overseas in search of higher education and employment for number of years now. A large number educated Brahmins including Deshasthas have moved abroad to USA, UK & other countries like Australia. Indeed, a simple search of surnames of Maharashtrian families in US will reveal mostly Brahmin (all sub-groups) or CKP names. The rate of migration has increased fourfold after start of IT boom in 1990. However, economic slowdown in 2009 and other reasons like marriage or desire to see their children raised in Indian environment motivated many of them to return back to India in cities like Pune, Bangalore and Mumbai etc. There are thousands of Deshasthas working temporary in US on H1B visas and on Work Permit in UK.

Occupational history
This may be due to their long tradition  of  sending  their brightest students to the holy city of Kashi for religious and legal studies. In modern times, Deshastha occupations range from being factory workers, clerks to being doctors, lawyers, teachers, administrators, IT professionals and engineers. Deshastha women are also acquiring higher education and as a result can be found in high ranking professions. Around 2% of the Deshastha population is  still living in interior rural Maharashtra area  with relatively poor earnings and poor life style. This fraction of community is not educated but literate. After entry of Konkanasthas in Maratha empire, initially they were struggling to get administrative, military jobs. Most of the administrators in the government of Shivaji Maharaj were Deshastha Brahmins and CKP. Deshastha influence waned during the rule of Nanasaheb Peshwa (especially during 1750s) except the posts of “Panditrao” (minister of ecclesiastical affairs) and “Chief Justice“ remained in hands of Deshastha and other valuable posts like Phadanvis (Finance Secretary) Kotwal (Home Secretary) and other military rankings were dominated by Konkanasthas. This usurping of power by Konkanasthas from Deshastha Brahmins resulted in intense rivalry between the two communities resulting in each community trying to prove themselves to be better or superior than other community.

Anti-brahminism
However, in some instances, the rioters also killed their Brahmin victims. It took years for them to recover from this situation. Some took it constructively and migrated to Cities in search of work.

Reply I added most of the citations needed tags and especially on :

"The rate of migration has increased fourfold after start of IT boom in 1990. However, economic slowdown in 2009 and other reasons like marriage or desire to see their children raised in Indian environment motivated many of them to return back to India in cities like Pune, Bangalore and Mumbai etc. There are thousands of Deshasthas working temporary in US on H1B visas and on Work Permit in UK."

I don't usually delete information added by others if it does not affect the flow of the article. However, I also like a positive neutral look to the article and so all the rantings added by others on the alleged oppression by kokanastha ruin the tone. I believe the "main article" should be about  who deshastha are, brief history and then their culture, mostly contemporary and some historical. In the supplementary articles. other details such as the surname list, prominent deshastha etc or history can be handled. 74.9.96.122 (talk) 20:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * We are in agreement about the list of surnames and list of prominent Deshasthas. I feel the history of the community is an integral part of this main article as is provides an accurate narration of how the community got where it is today. Given that the history of the community is about 3000 years, it takes some skill to keep it concise. The current version of the article is split like this:


 * History - 20% (roughly 11 kilobytes)
 * Society and culture - 20% (roughly 11 kilobytes)
 * Social and political issues - 15 % (roughly 8 kilobytes)
 * Demographics, sub classification 7% (roughly 4 kilobytes), Lead/contents, surnames, ref, external links, further reading, infobox, etc - 38% (roughly 14 kilobytes).
 * Your actions contradict your words as your deletion of my content maintaining a NPOV involving Konkanasthas shows
 * You contradicted yourself again when you deleted content related to Desi, and the contradiction is stark the second time when you deleted the same material (it fit perfectly with the flow of the article).  You dismissed it off as trivia because it did not go with your POV.


 * ...and sorry to expose your dis-ingenuousness again that the citations needed tags you claim you added above were actually added by me as shown in this diff.  Zuggernaut (talk) 22:45, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Reply This article is about deshastha people. Yes, do mention Lokmanya Tilak but not that Kokanstha community started Ganeshotsav. The word Desi is most probably invented by the Gujurati diaspora. They also account for the majority of overseas Hindus and I have heard them mentioning des to describe Gujurat. I don't have time to quote references so bear with me. The biggest deletion you mention was not by me. The citation that 1000s of Deshastha are working in UK was by me. My friend, I have maintained this article for many years and saved the list of surnames from being lost in Wiktionary. I don't know what your commitment to this article is but it is possible that you will wreck the article and move on.I hope that does not happen. On the other hand, I don't want this article to turn into a compare and contrast Kokanstha / deshastha essay. For that purpose, you can start a new article on Maharashtrian brahmins. Time permitting I might start that myself. You keep on belittling Mahajan and Joshi. From deshastha perspective, their achievements are outstanding. Their achievements need not be compared to Tilak, Savarkar or Vinobha Bhave. 74.9.96.122 (talk) 13:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC) I removed "Kokanstha cuisine is insipid". Again this is an article on Deshastha. Some of topics in the articles can be interpreted as "deshasthas are what kokansthas are not". Just like in international media, quite often India is always compared to Pakistan. Relationship with Pakistan should not define India. The same should logic apply to the deshastha and kokanstha. The article on Kokanastha does not dwell on it, neither should this article. 74.9.96.122 (talk) 17:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

madhyandin brahmins
"Almost without an exception the several regional groups of the Madhyandin Brahmins lie "indistinguishably mixed up with the Marathas.[26] Mr, Zuggernaut, What is the meaning of the sentence above ? From the reference it seems you are talkng about head size, nsal index etc. But nevertheless, do clarify. 74.9.96.122 (talk) 15:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a correct interpretation. Zuggernaut (talk) 06:26, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Then, please makes those changes in the article. At present the meaning is not clear.74.9.96.122 (talk) 13:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. Will do so when I copy-edit the article. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 21:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Several References/Citations needed
The following lines currently have tags:

- '''I am sure you will able to find numerous references. They teach about Mahatma Phule and Dr. Ambedkar even in Marathi elementary school history.''' Fixed. I've provided citations and rephrased text. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)  Fixed, I've provided citations and rephrased text. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Traditionally, Deshastha men wore dhotis in a "Brahmin way." In early to mid 20th century, Deshastha men used to wear a black cap to cover their head[citation needed]Bold textPersonal observations. My grandfather & my school teachers in the 1960s  used to wear that and you can see that in the picture of Dr. Hedgewar. Get rid of it if you think that is original research. Fixed, citation provided. Zuggernaut (talk) 17:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) However, unlike other groups, they do not have a caste panchayat to resolve disputes within their group.[citation needed]-
 * 3) Marriages between Maharashtrian Deshastha and Kannada Deshastha are also common, particularly in the border region of the two states.[citation needed]- Personal observations. My great grand parents belonged to the Maharashtrian & kannada deshastha families respectively. Get rid of it if you think that is original research.
 * 4) This practice died out due to the campaigns conducted by leaders like Veer Savarkar, Sane Guruji, K. B. Hedgewar and non Brahmin leaders like Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar, Mahatma Phule.[citation needed]
 * 1) Legislation outlawing caste discrimination after Indian independence may also have played a part in eliminating the segregation and untouchability.[citation needed]- Again references should be easy to find. Don't forget Mayawati the chief minister of UP belongs to a "Dalit" group. so does Sushilkumar Shinde, a former chief minister of Maharashtra. Logic says  you can not have leaders from oppressed group tolerating overt discrimination. However, when it comes to marriage, a quick look at brides or groom wanted section will show people preferring partners from their own community. Total integration may take decades or may not happen but in public sphere it has been over for many decades
 * 1) It should be noted, however that Dr. Govande, a Deshastha was one of the supporter of Mahatma Phule. Mahadev Ambedkar, another Deshastha bramhin had helped Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar in latter's early schooling career.[citation needed] Dr. Ambedkar had expressed gratitude about his Ambedkar guruji many times in his speech.[citation needed]- Fixed. I've provided citations and rephrased text. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) Even now girls are married off in their late teens by rural and less educated Deshastha families.[citation needed]- Personal observations I've withdrawn my challenge for a citation for this. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 3) Urban women may choose to remain unmarried until the late twenties or even early thirties. Citations are welcome if you can find any but I'm not challenging this. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 4) Also in the past, a Deshastha widow was never allowed to re-marry, while it was acceptable for Deshastha widowers to re-marry.[citation needed] - Personal family history. Well-documented stories from the 1800s too. one reference would be from Pandita Ramabai's book, "the high caste Hindu widow" from the 1880s. I'm withdrawing my challenge for this as it may be common knowledge in Maharashtra. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 5) Deshastha widows at that time used to shave their heads and wear simple red sari.[citation needed] - "Personal observations and family history." Fixed. Citation provided. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 6) The woman also had to stop wearing the kunku on her forehead.[citation needed] -"Personal observations and family history." This is a tradition amongst all hindu communities throughout India. It forms part of the theme in many Indian, particularly Hindi movies too. Fixed. Citation provided. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 7) Basically, widows had to lead a very austere life with little joy. Divorces were non-existent.[citation needed] I've withdrawn this challenge since this is more or less common knowledge. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 8) All of these practices have gradually fallen by the wayside over the last hundred years, and modern Deshastha widows lead better lives and younger widows also remarry.[citation needed]- "Personal observations and family history" I'm not challenging this anymore since legislation seems to have been enacted decades ago to outlaw these things. However I would recommend rephrasing the statement to state that it is now illegal to prevent widow re-marriage. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Divorce takes place by mutual consent and legal approval is sought.[citation needed] This was included here erroneously. Zuggernaut (talk) 18:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) Marriages between Maharashtrian Deshastha and Kannada Deshastha are also common, particularly in the border region of the two states.[citation needed]

If you have references confirming these unsubstantiated claims, please update the article with the appropriate citation. I will delete the content in a day or so if we are unable to substantiate the claims. Thanks. Zuggernaut (talk) 22:00, 3 August 2010 (UTC) '''Delete it if you think wikipedia needs a reference for everything. An absurd citation needed tag   was placed on the Marathi people page after a sentence which said"Majority of Marathi people are hindus"''' 74.9.96.122 (talk) 13:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Removing the word "nepotistic", adding colonial era, etc was wrong
Three changes twist the meaning and provide a different disposition to the article:

'''Mr Zuggernaut, you embellished what Jadunath Sarkar says in his book so stop reverting my edits. Here is what Sarkar says in his book "While the Chitpavan Brahmans were waging social war with the Deshastha Brahmans, a bitter jealousy raged between the Brahman ministers Eind govern'ors and the Kayastha secretaries" Where is the word "nepotistic"?74.9.96.122 (talk) 14:58, 13 August 2010 (UTC)''' "Era was nepotistic". Are there many societies in the world where nepotism is not practiced ? So why single out the Kokanasthas ? History also records that the kokanasthas were more biased against the non-brahmin CKP and the sonar community (daivadnya brahmins)  rather than the deshasthas. When you say "author" who are you referring to, yourself or the author of the reference you cited ?74.9.96.122 (talk) 19:28, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
 * - (1) Era was nepotistic as confirmed by 5 sources cited. (2) The hisotrian was a renowned Indian historian - Jadunath Sarkar, not a colonial British person. And historians are historians! Adding "colonial era" implies that Jadunath Sarkar was providing a biased account which is very untrue. Historians are not always historian or completely unbiased. just read accounts of 1857 from British and Indian perspectives and you will get completely different pictures. !
 * - The author just makes a statement about their inferior situation. He never mentions that they were considered that way by Deshasthas.

'''Mr. Zuggernaut, who decided that kokansthas were inferior before the 1700s ? It can't be any other authority than deshasthas of the day because geographically they lived closest to the kokansthas and holding the highest position in religious matters could dictate who was regarded inferior or on par with them. 74.9.96.122 (talk) 14:10, 13 August 2010 (UTC)''' As Wikipedia policy says if you don't like your work edited, then do not start or add content.74.9.96.122 (talk) 14:58, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The rest of the changes were constructive. Please feel free to do them again. Zuggernaut (talk) 05:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources stating Peshwa rule was nepotistic
As cited in the article, you will find the Peshwa era described as neoptistic by these sources:
 * 1) ^ a b Tryambaka Śaṅkara Śejavalakara (1946). "Panipat: 1761, Volume 1 of Deccan College monograph series, Poona Deccan College of Post-graduate and Research Institute (India) Volume 1 of Deccan College dissertation series". pp. 24, 25.
 * 2) ^ a b Anil Seal. The Emergence of Indian Nationalism: Competition and Collaboration in the Later Nineteenth Century (Political change in modern South Asia). pp. 74, 78. ISBN 0521096529.
 * 3) ^ a b Sukthankar, V. S.. Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute 8: 182.
 * 4) ^ a b c Govind Sakharam Sardesai (1946). New history of the Marathas: Sunset over Maharashtra (1772-1848). Phoenix Publications. pp. 254.
 * 5) ^ a b J. R. Śinde (1985). Dynamics of cultural revolution: 19th century Maharashtra. pp. 16.
 * 6) ^ a b S. M. Michael. Dalits in Modern India: Vision and Values. pp. 95.

Sarkar is describing the reasons the Maratha Empire was losing ground to the British. One of the reasons is that the Konkanastha were waging social war on the Deshastha.

'''But then put the sentence there in its entirety. Just saying "Konkanastha waged  social war on the Deshastha" does not give good clarity.'''74.9.96.122 (talk) 19:16, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Since the article is about Deshasthas, we need not get in to relationships of the Kayashtas, British administrators, etc. The historical fact is Konkanastha were waging social war on the Deshastha. The article will lose it's focus if we get into unnecessary and peripheral details. Zuggernaut (talk) 19:37, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

'''What is a "social war". Our readers need to know that and I don't think that is perpheral''' 74.9.96.122 (talk) 21:27, 13 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It's plain English so I'm not sure if I can simplify it any further. But if you read the Sarkar statements, you will find that it's exactly in the same context as it is in this article. Zuggernaut (talk) 21:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Mr, Zuggernaut, ''' I agree with you focusing on Deshastha!. That's what most of the original article was before you turned it into "history of deshasthas" and added a lot of your own point of view. I am still not happy with you removing the festival page. When I started working on this article four years ago, it was a stub. I expanded it significantly. I wanted this article to be about a living community / culture rather than an extinct culture like the Romans. Your edits of last month or so has completely changed the character of the article. Yes, you added a lot of references. However, after going through Sarkar's book, I also have to question the validity of your sources.74.9.96.122 (talk) 21:22, 13 August 2010 (UTC)Italic text


 * The history section is about 1/5th-1/6th of the article, so I think it is appropriate given that the Deshasthas are a community from the time of the Rig Veda (1500 BC) or even older if you take Tilak's work in to account. List of festivals issue has been discussed many times earlier. If you have a new perspective, please present it here.
 * Sources - sure, I'll be glad to discuss them here on the talk page if you have questions. Zuggernaut (talk) 21:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Please consider using the colon for indenting your discussion. Zuggernaut (talk) 17:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)