Talk:Desperate Measures (musical)

Sources for the reception section
These urls were put in the reception section without summarizing them or proper reference formatting. That is not how Wikipedia works. Suggested references, if you don't have time to actual incorporate them yourself, go on the talk page, like this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/16/theater/arden-everywhere-desperate-measures-measure-for-measure.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/theater-musical-desperate-measures-measures-up_us_59d1932be4b034ae778d4bde

oknazevad (talk) 22:17, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Sources to develop the article
There is misrepresentation of the current off-broadway production that opened in June to aggrandizes the York limited engagement team. There is an original off-broadway cast & management team of the New World Stages production that is different from the cast at the York Theatre. Credits should clarify venue. When users call the York Production "Original Off-Broadway," they are misrepresenting the team that originated and opened the current, larger, commercial Off-Broadway production.

NYC4444 (talk) 13:51, 25 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The current Off-Broadway production was not the Original Off-Broadway production. The Original Off-Broadway production of Desperate Measures opened at the York Theatre in September of 2017 and ran through the end of the dear. One person continues to make edits under multiple names that erases the York Production and original cast member, Emma Degerstedt, from the Wikipedia page. These are really the only edits that have had any back and forth. I wonder who may be constantly trying to erase the York Production and Emma Degerstedt from this page. Perhaps the one person who was not in the original production? An Original Off-Broadway cast album was made in December of 2017 and released last month. ORIGINAL Off-Broadway cast album. The production that ran at the York Theatre won OFF-BROADWAY awards. Not sure why this one person keeps trying to erase this production and this actress (Emma Degerstedt) from this page. It's obvious who it is.
 * https://www.theatermania.com/off-broadway/news/cast-of-desperate-measures-performs-for-the-press_82335.html
 * http://theaterpizzazz.com/meet-the-cast-of-desperate-measures/
 * https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Emma-Degerstedt-Conor-Ryan-Lauren-Molina-and-More-to-Lead-DESPERATE-MEASURES-at-York-Theatre-Company-Cast-Creatives-Set-20170821
 * https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/theater-musical-desperate-measures-measures-up_us_59d1932be4b034ae778d4bde
 * https://www.amazon.com/Desperate-Measures-Original-Cast-Recording/dp/B07F9ZTVH3
 * https://open.spotify.com/album/7unPjNn0ra5UMUnJzp5uWx
 * https://masterworksbroadway.com/music/desperate-measures-original-cast-recording/
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bss1331 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
 * No one intends to discredit The York Theatre, that team, or their acclaim. The album is the original cast from the York Theatre Off-Broadway. Per equity, that does not mean the cast at New World Stages is not the original off-broadway of that production. The version you keep changing has both listed as off-broadway, and notes those are both original casts. That is fair and consistent to all involved. It also cites the actress at the York to ensure she gets due credit for her work in the original cast at the York, not removing her as you say.
 * Here clearly states "Original Off-Broadway Cast 2018" https://www.broadwayworld.com/shows/cast.php?showid=332658 and "Original Off-Broadway Cast 2017" https://www.broadwayworld.com/shows/cast.php?showid=332291
 * Your version aggrandizes the Original 2017 Cast at the expense of the Original 2018 Cast. This version is striving to be unbiased, consistent and fair. Accordingly, full awards list from the Playbill Vault citing the York have been added. Thank you for communicating that this needed clarity. It has been added under the awards section.
 * NYC4444 (talk) 16:49, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
 * An original cast creates and develops characters from which subsequent actors draw. It's a very big deal for an actor as it should be. To continually claim that the York production was not the ORIGINAL Off-Broadway cast is dishonest. Since the only cast member who was in the original Off-Broaway cast and is not in the New World Stages cast is Emma Degerstedt, it seems very specifically directed towards denying her the credit she deserves for having created the character that she portrayed. Sarah Panicky replaced her when the show moved to New World stages. It seems that somebody who has logged in under several user accounts has taken the exact same position as NYC4444 and I believe those edits all belong to one person. It its clear that this is a personal agenda from someone who wants readers to believe that Emma Degerstedt did not originate the role of Susanna, and that instead it was originated by Sarah Panicky. I wonder who would want to mislead in that way. My point is that the source is not objective and is self seeking. Bri28 (talk) 18:58, 25 August 2018 (UTC)Bri28
 * Consider this notice - please everyone only use one account. Sock puppetry, or the use of multiple accounts, is a blockable offense.

The Original cast at the York Off-Broadway 2017 is not the same as the Original Cast at New World Stages Off-Broadway 2018. Any cast or team not involved in opening the production at New World Stages did not originate that production. Excluding the New World Stages cast in the production section misrepresents that casts' work creating that production. Please add the original cast off-broadway at New World Stages is The original cast at New World Stages starred Sarah Parnicky as Susanna, Gary Marachek as Father Morse, Lauren Molina as Bella Rose, Conor Ryan as Johnny Blood, Peter Saide as Sheriff Green, and Nick Wyman as Governor von Richterhenkenpflichtgetruber. Here is the citation: https://www.broadwayworld.com/shows/cast.php?showid=332658

NYC4444 (talk) 05:00, 26 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Would you both agree to seek mediation at the Dispute resolution noticeboard? Wikipedia has resolved thousands of disputes in the past. I expect that this person will suggest removing all content from the article which is not backed by citations to WP:Reliable sources. Right now, that might bring this article down to 5-8 sentences, but perhaps that would resolve the dispute.
 * If you go through this process then I recommend writing as little as possible, and instead saying "add this and here is a citation" or "remove this and there is no citation". Wikipedia has a robotic sort of writing style and quality control and if you can work with a mediator on this then I hope you can find a speedy resolution. Also if you use a mediator there would be little need for anyone in conflict to speak with the other.
 * How does this sound? Does anyone have an alternate suggestion that would attach citations to every part of this article?  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  21:42, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, I would love to enter mediation. The proper crediting of the original New World Stages Cast with reliable citations is continually deleted by 3 users who all share the same biased skew towards to the York production. I added this last night to the talk page and the article: "The Original cast at the York Off-Broadway 2017 is not the same as the Original Cast at New World Stages Off-Broadway 2018. Any cast or team not involved in opening the production at New World Stages did not originate that production. Excluding the New World Stages cast in the production section misrepresents that casts' work creating that production. Please add the original cast off-broadway at New World Stages is The original cast at New World Stages starred Sarah Parnicky as Susanna, Gary Marachek as Father Morse, Lauren Molina as Bella Rose, Conor Ryan as Johnny Blood, Peter Saide as Sheriff Green, and Nick Wyman as Governor von Richterhenkenpflichtgetruber. Here is the citation: https://www.broadwayworld.com/shows/cast.php?showid=332658" and my article adjustment is already deleted from the page. No one is attempting to veil the York production, but these users (if not one person) are attempting to veil the New World Stages production despite copius reliable sources. NYC4444 (talk) 13:57, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I find it fascinating that NYC4444 (formerly used the name TruthAndKindness and falsely represented herself as Desperate Measures Definitive account,and also formerly posted as Desperate Measures Fact check) has listed Sarah Parnicky first in the listing of the cast above. The original posting that discredited the work of Emma Degerstedt as the original Susanna is identical to those later posted under those other accounts, and matches the same language use by a cast member on her personal web page. My point is this source is not credible because she is self seeking and not objective. The agenda that continues now as NYC4444 is unchanged and that is to discredit Emma Degherstedt as the original Susanna and deny her the credit she deserves for having created the character of Susanna in and award winning Off-Broadway show.

Broadway World listings are not reliable because they can be created and edited by users. More reliable are actual reputable publications such as New York Times and Huffington post and here are their only reviews of Desperate Measures Off Broadway, because they don't re-do reviews just because a production moves to a different theater.

Additionally here is a link to Outer Critics Circle Awards where the show won "Outstanding New Off-Broadway Musical" Those awards were earned by the Original Off-Broadway cast from the York production in 2017 as proven by the date of the announcement of the award on May,7 2018 which was before the New World Stages production even opened.

To continually diminish the work of Emma Degerstedt as having originated the role of Susanna is unfair. It is also false (and would be irrelevant if true) that the Original cast recording was recorded before the team planned to move to a commercial venue after the run at the York. Those plans were underway before the album was recorded. This was revealed at an audience talkback with the team/cast that I attended after a performance of DM at the York in December 2017.You imply that the York wasn't the real Off-Broadway cast and if the team had known they were going to open in a real Off-Broadway venue, they would have waited to use a new cast for the album. But at the talkback the team was thrilled with its cast, The plans to reopen elsewhere and the prospect of the producer finding a new venue, and they were especially excited by the fact that they were going to be recording the original cast album the following week. The original cast is credited on that album which is entitled " Original Cast Recording Desperate Measures". Also of note is that the article in Playbill states that "...Desperate Measures, which recently reopened at New World Stages..." NWS production was the same show, producers, creative team, and cast except for Emma Degherstedt who was unavailable and replaced by Sarah Parnicky. To say that Sarah Parnicky originated the role of Susanna Off-Broadway is false and dishonest. I'm not sure why you feel the need to take credit away from Emma Degerstedt in order to elevate Sarah Parnicky. It's uncalled for and in no way does acknowledging Emma Degerstedt as the original Off-Broadway Susanna diminish the stature of Sarah Parnicky. Bri28 (talk) 00:39, 31 August 2018 (UTC)Bri28


 * I don't see that this is an issue as long as there is a cast list for each production but I and others here do agree that there are enough concerns about the differences in productions to doubt which one can be called the original Off Broadway production and when something is no longer being workshopped. As I understand it, non-profit is a part of the workshopping of any play such as the regional theatre development. Our article; Off-Broadway is clear; "An Off-Broadway theatre is any professional venue in Manhattan in New York City". I agree with .--Mark Miller (talk) 10:40, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

@MarkMiller is wrong. Non-profit theaters can also be professional as in the case of the York Theater Company which is also a member of AEA. The profit status vs non-profit status of a professional Off-Broadway theater has no bearing on it's sataus as an Off-Broadway theater, as proven by the numerous Off-Broadway awards for which the York Theatre Company's production was nominated and awarded. NWS production is not available for this 2018 season nominations because they are no longer an original or new show. By definition, there can only be one original. Bri28 (talk) 03:26, 2 October 2018 (UTC)Bri28


 * I notice the contracts are absolutely separate. A nonprofit contract pays less but more importantly are the "Paid on Net Operating Profits". It seems to tme the goal of any production is to make it to a profit based production company which may well be the reason for the move and may well still be accurate to call the cast in the for profit production the "original Off-Broadway cast". There are clearly defining differences.--Mark Miller (talk) 10:58, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

@MarkMiller is once again mistaken. DMM cast at the York Theater was not paid based on "Paid Net Operating Profits" as proven by the audition breakdown looking for original cast posted at backstage.com. The production paid $560/week.
 * "It's uncalled for and in no way does acknowledging Emma Degerstedt as the original Off-Broadway Susanna diminish the stature of Sarah Parnicky" It is my belief that this clearly demonstrates this editor's bias and entire reasoning behind their edits. This is not about proper credit for the production but about a single actor, no longer with the production and this editor's need to make sure that actor is maintained as the "original" off Broadway Susanna" All of Bri28's arguments are designed to specifically keep this point regardless of what the sources say and are based on their own opinions and not Wikipedia guidelines or policy.--Mark Miller (talk) 14:29, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

@MarkMiller was right to remove himself from this dispute as his bias is clear. His opinion that this is not about proper credit but "about a single actor, no longer with the production and this editor's need to make sure that actor is maintained as the "original" off Broadway Susanna" ignores the fact that that IS the proper credit, and NYC4444 is bending the facts like a pretzel to deny proper credit to the original actress. @MarkMiller has ignored ALL of the sources that have been linked to the page which show that the York cast was the original cast. Here is just one, but a very objective source. The "Original Cast Recording".

Bri28 (talk) 03:47, 2 October 2018 (UTC)Bri28

Why the York Theatre and New World Stages productions are separate stand alone productions
What makes an Off-Broadway production an off-Broadway production? A legal definition by contract. What is the difference between a non-profit Off-Broadway production and a for-profit Off-Broadway production? A legal definition by contract. What is the difference between a non-profit theatre venue and a for-profit theatre venue? Yes...you guessed it, a legal definition by contract. The York Theatre is a non-profit theatre. There are two separate contracts for the non-profit and for-profit Off-Broadway productions. Each theatre has its own production company and it's own stage management, which means a change in the IATSE staff. New contracts are made for all of the transferring actors. There are two separate Off-Broadway levels...non-profit and for-profit. This is in the sources for this production and is a matter of distinct significance for any production to transfer to the for-profit Off-Broadway circuit. Which is the original Off-Broadway production? They are both original Off-Broadway productions. One, the original non-profit production and the other, the original for-profit production. We could label the two in this manner.--Mark Miller (talk) 14:15, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

@MarkMiller Your point is completely accurate. Any mention of for profit in regards to NWS made within the article is removed, and any mention of the word "original" involving the original NWS cast is removed, and any references or citations for these facts are deleted. Providing those citations and information in the article is fair, consistent and, yes, significant given the difference in types of productions. This is timely as there are already replacements performing in the NWS production. NYC4444 (talk) 20:47, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

@MarkMiller removed himself from this dispute as he was improperly editing the page while serving as a mediator. "DIRECT FROM ITS SOLD-OUT RUN AT THE YORK THEATRE" is a direct quote from the home page of the musical itself. Additionally from theater mania article: "Full casting has been announced for the transfer of Desperate Measures from York Theatre Company to New World Stages for an open-ended run starting May 30, with opening night set for June 13.Lauren Molina, Conor Ryan, Gary Marachek, Peter Saide, and Nick Wyman will reprise their roles from the original York Theatre Company production. Sarah Parnicky will join the cast as Susanna/Sister Mary Jo." Please note the word TRANSFER. Also note the reference to the "original York Theatre production". Parnicky is not listed as reprising the original role but instead "join(ing) the cast" You can talk about what makes a show "new,stand alone production" and profit vs non-profit, contracts, etc, all day long but the citations show otherwise. Because the NWS production is a transfer between theaters of the same show, it will not be eligible for nominations to the awards for Broadway and Off-Broadway because it is NOT a new show, and the York production has already been nominated and won several of those awards. Lastly the Original Cast Recording lists the Artist as "Original Cast of Desperate Measures" including the following performers: Conor Ryan, Peter Said, Nick Wyman, Emma Degerstedt, Gary Marachek and Lauren Molina. If Sarah Parnicky is the "original Susanna" why is she not on the cast recording that credits the original cast? The answer is simple; she did NOT originate that role, and as cited, Emma Degerstedt did. Here you will find a quote from David Friedman the composer. At 11:05 into the video he says, "To be able to get into the studio now with this ORIGINAL talented cast is a dream come true" The cast he refers to is shown in the video and is the York cast. Near the end of the video at 36:42 Peter Kellogg the writer says, "The cast album makes it legitimate because it will add to other productions because, you know, people can read a script and it means nothing to them, when they have the cast album to listen to they can visualize and they can see how great it can be." And that in a nutshell is why a replacement actress should not be credited or credit herself as an "original". Actors who replace originals have the original actors' performance to draw from. The "original" develops the character and the replacement emulates what the original "created". And yes, this is the sticking point because it is very unfair to try to pass off a replacement cast member as "originating" a role that someone else originated. Playing word games with "original commercial" or "original for profit" is just a way to deceive people, in my opinion, into believing that the New World Stages cast was the "original" cast. All actually were part of both casts except for one who "joined" the cast as a replacement when it transferred. She is the only actor in the NWS cast who cannot claim to have originated the role that she plays. There is no shame in that, but there is shame in robbing due credit from the actor who originated a role. Mamma Mia transferred theaters but nobody ever refers to the transfer cast as original even though the theater staff was different because the teams and producers and production were exactly the same as is the case with DMM.Bri28 (talk) 01:02, 18 September 2018 (UTC)Bri28

Invitation to discuss the article
Hello all of you! All of you are newly registered Wikipedia accounts that have only edited this article for Desperate Measures the Musical!

There has been some back-and-forth editing and deleting. Wikipedia has rules. If you would like to take training then consider going through the online tutorial. Wikipedia's quality control process is to expect citations for any information anyone has added, and in general, to avoid using citations to self-published sources. This means that this article should mostly be a summary of what third-party publications have said about this musical, and not what anyone involved with the musical has published about themselves.

If anyone contests any part of this article then please post your concerns to this talk page. Start a discussion and wiki mediators will come and help sort it. If you want information added, then please show your citation to the published source. If we have editing back and forth then we can put a temporary lock on editing to call people into discussion here. I hope that everyone can come here to discuss on their own. Thanks!  Blue Rasberry  (talk)  14:26, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Single purpose accounts and Conflict of interest
A number of newly registered Wikipedia accounts appear to be exclusively single purpose accounts for this very article. It is possible these new registered users may all have a conflict of interest. At this time I ask all registered and IP users who are involved with this article to state whether or not they have a direct connection to the production or to refrain from further direct editing of this article. I also suggest all registered users declare any COI on their user page for transparency. All contributors are asked to review Conflict of interest.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:58, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I can sate that I am not a cast member or directly connected to the production. I would point out that multiple accounts as well as several IP addresses, that point to a public IP address located at NYC City Hall Park, hold hard to the same arguments and precise language as as @NYC4444. There is a COI here and a breach of rules that forbids multiple user accounts by one user, as well as imitation of official accounts. There is a cast member who holds the same argument on her web page that she originated the role of Susanna, when she did not. "Sarah Parnicky is giving a breakout performance "in an impressive Off-Broadway debut" originating the young leading lady Susanna/Sister Mary Jo in the commercial Off-Broadway run of DESPERATE MEASURES (Drama Desk, Outer Critics Circle, Off-Broadway Alliance Winner)." . This is same deceptive language used by NYC4444 and multiple users who have presented under the City Hall IP location, along with others such as @Desperate Measures, and @Desperate Measures Fact Check, and @Truth and Kindness, whom I suspect may be the same person with the same motivation and COI. I would like to ask @NYC4444 directly if she is a cast member or has a direct connection to the production. I am aware that this is a post authored by @Mark Miller, who has since removed himself because he was improperly editing a page that he was simultaneously mediating, but I don't know where else to make this point. Bri28 (talk) 05:51, 24 September 2018 (UTC)Bri28

RFC on inclusion of cast template box

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the article include a template box for just the different casts or is prose enough? RfC relisted by Cunard (talk) at 00:12, 7 October 2018 (UTC). --Mark Miller (talk) 02:27, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
 * table - Bye Bye Birdie has a table of casts. West Side Story does it all in prose.  How about a table to show the original casts and separate notes about each production (apart from their original casts), kind of like The Lion King? -- ke4roh (talk) 12:26, 10 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reading casts
I've attended a reading at the York Theatre and at the Friar's Club. Are the casts from these worth a mention or a bit about them in the development section? I definitely have the programs, but might have to dig for them. I remember Heath Calvert was Johnny Blood and Bill Buell was the priest in the York reading, and Lauren Molina and Nick Wyman were in both. Susanna was different in both versions, and I don't believe either made it to the full production--the first one was excellent but got a TV gig. The Friar's Club is members only, and I was allowed to attend only because I'm friends with David Friedman, and he put me on a guest list, but the York reading was open to the public. The Friar's Club was essential for getting the investors, though. David said that there were alterations made with every reading. I saw the York on the first of two days, and David said Peter cut a number of lines to tighten it up. The infobox image is from the Friar's Club program. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 00:01, 13 September 2018 (UTC)