Talk:Destruction of cultural heritage during the 2023 Israeli invasion of Gaza

Possible sources
John Cummings (talk) 10:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
 * https://www.riwaq.org/
 * https://www.thenation.com/article/world/gaza-cultural-genocide/
 * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/04/everything-beautiful-has-been-destroyed-palestinians-mourn-a-city-in-tatters
 * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/14/a-cultural-genocide-which-of-gazas-heritage-sites-have-been-destroyed
 * https://www.npr.org/2024/02/04/1226295081/gaza-iconic-sites-destroyed-in-war
 * https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2024/jan/11/palestinian-cultural-heritage-gaza-destruction-in-pictures?ref=upstract.com
 * https://worldcrunch.com/focus-israel-palestine-war/cultural-genocide-israel-gaza
 * https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/91577
 * https://www.museumsassociation.org/museums-journal/news/2024/01/widescale-destruction-of-cultural-heritage-in-gaza/
 * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/14/a-cultural-genocide-which-of-gazas-heritage-sites-have-been-destroyed
 * https://www.aljazeera.com/program/upfront/2023/12/22/israel-gaza-war-why-are-culture-and-society-targets
 * https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/3/25/why-archaeologists-must-speak-up-for-gaza
 * https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-bottom-line/2024/1/11/french-historian-israel-destroyed-4000-year-old-culture-in-gaza

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 April 2024
Change "The medieval Qasr al-Basha (also known as Pasha's Palace) was left in ruined after Israeli bombardment.[35][34]" to "The medieval Qasr al-Basha (also known as Pasha's Palace) was left in ruins after Israeli bombardment.[35][34]" Thegkz (talk) 12:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ Jamedeus (talk) 17:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you Thegkz for spotting that and Thegkz for fixing the typo. Richard Nevell (talk) 17:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Misleading edit summary
Your edit summary ["Sources generally refuse to attribute blame for the general destruction, though specific instances are attributed"] is factually incorrect as sources that are reliable according to Wikipedia, i.e. Al Jazeera, Middle East Eye, Jacobin and The Nation to cite a few examples, have explicitly cited Israel as the perpetrator as a whole, and not in specific instances. ,, ,. Adding also EuroMed monitor. Not only that but they have called it a cultural genocide. Waiting for your self-revert of the move given the factually incorrect edit summary. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:09, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You've listed sources that there is also generally a consensus are biased. Less biased sources, such as the Heritage for Peace, decline to attribute general blame. We should keep the title neutral, and provide the detail in the article where appropriate context can be given.
 * Further, per WP:PCM, The discussion process is used for potentially controversial moves. It was inappropriate for you to boldly move this article - you should have been aware that such a move would be controversial. BilledMammal (talk) 12:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The sources provided above are all reliable sources according to Wikipedia and neutrality does not mean censorship of what reliable sources are saying. I took the bold move in alignment with RS per BRD, which is within my right, and your revert, which despite also being within your right, was made contrary to RS. There is no need for this to be controversial as RS are clear, and I would expect better good faith editing here. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 1 May 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. to Destruction of cultural heritage during the 2023 Israeli invasion of Gaza. (non-admin closure) Toadette Edit! 11:40, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israel–Hamas war → Israeli destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of Gaza – RS are clear in not only attributing the destruction of Gaza's cultural heritage, which is obvious as Israel is the party destroying Gaza, but also in calling this destruction deliberate and systematic. The current title is misleading and implies the destruction occurred as a result of fighting in the war, rather than as a result of deliberate and systematic Israeli campaign, as demonstrated by RS: Al Jazeera, Middle East Eye, Jacobin and The Nation to cite a few examples, which called it even a cultural genocide. ,, ,  Also we have a similar article Destruction of cultural heritage by the Islamic State. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Per Human Rights Watch, Isreal is the primary cause for this destruction - but thus not the only cause, and thus the proposed title would both be inaccurate and an WP:NPOV violation. Further, the sources presented by the nominator in support tend to be biased; for example, There is a consensus that Jacobin is a generally reliable but biased source. Neutral and reliable sources tend to either attribute the claim that Israel is responsible for all the destruction, or decline to make any claim, attributed or not, about who is responsible. (For example; The Guardian, Heritage for Peace, and the BBC)
 * See also this HRW report, which says between 10 and 20 percent of rockets launched fall short and hit Gaza, making it difficult or even impossible at times to determine who is responsible for a specific incident. BilledMammal (talk) 13:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for providing an extra reliable source that shows that Israel has been primarily destroying cultural heritage. I will add that to the reliable sources cited above that have said that such efforts by Israel are systematic and deliberate. As for the original research and synthesis made, I won’t be taking it into consideration. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's some interesting theory. Basically God of the gaps stuff – really testing the limits of the language of that HRW report. Even if we go along with that errant missiles logic, it's well known that Gazan militants missiles are pretty poxy things that don't do any damage, let alone have the ability to do much destruction. So ... do you have any source directly stating that an errant militant missile even hit, let alone destroyed a piece of cultural heritage? And if not, please can you leave your OR at the door. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:55, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Oppose as this article focuses on all destruction of cultural heritage, not just the destruction Israel is responsible for (even though they are responsible for most of it). Adding "Israeli" to the article title would be a harmful re-scoping; we shouldn't need to make sure destruction was caused by Israel to include it in this article. Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 03:02, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose as it would unduly restrict the articles scope to only actions taken by one of the cultural combatants, both for destruction directly caused by Palestinian armed groups and due to dual use by them. This would either be a misleading title or the cause for an unnecessary spin out. Also per the arguments above, it’s quite clear that the less biased the RS is, the more it’s clear that Israel is not the only responsible party. FortunateSons (talk) 08:38, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Any sources for non-Israeli destruction of cultural heritage? Any reliable, independent RS that demonstrate your other, lesser claim that don't solely rely on IDF information or testimony? Iskandar323 (talk) 18:03, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Lesser claim (I assume being dual use) is widely known and not generally denied, but yes, by the nature of it, generally relies on IDF testimony, but it’s cited by the BBC article above in a way that makes it plausible, and there are cases where alleged video footage exists. There are also other cases with video footage, but it all naturally originates from the IDF, there simply is no truly neutral RS in Gaza right now.
 * Regarding the main claim, the (relatively) neutral RS do not claim that the damage was caused exclusively by Israel, so neither should we. There is also at least shared responsibility for destruction by Israel if there is dual use, and it’s implausible that they can fight inside without at least damaging cultural heritage, even discounting the statistical number of rocket failures, but that’s neither here nor there.
 * However, I believe the issue at the core of my vote to be addressed by the suggestion from K.e.coffman (maybe adding the word strip at the end to disambiguate from Gaza City), so while I object to the original move request, I don’t object to the alternative. It’s possible that we will have more specific information in the future (in either direction), but based on what is currently available, I would consider it optimal.
 * FortunateSons (talk) 19:38, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support, but there's no need to mention Israel in the title twice; this doesn't read well. Suggest Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of Gaza, or Destruction of cultural heritage during the 2023 Israeli invasion of Gaza (since there were several invasions), to match the main article: Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip (2023–present). Including "invasion" in the title sufficiently indicates the primary responsible party, IMO, while correctly reflecting the scope of the article. --K.e.coffman (talk) 11:26, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I would support this middle ground solution between the opposing views. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support this proposal—blindlynx 17:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support this version per the rationale described. Scope is correct. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per my comment above FortunateSons (talk) 19:39, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Support under the title of Destruction of cultural heritage during the 2023 Israeli invasion of Gaza for the reasons outlined by K.e.coffman. Richard Nevell (talk) 15:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Please fix typo
On 7 October 2023, Hamas attacked Israel, killing more than a thousand people including nearly 700 civilians (of which 36 were children). Some 259 hostages we're also taken. we're -> were WeInTheUSA (talk) 18:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Done. Richard Nevell (talk) 21:03, 9 May 2024 (UTC)