Talk:Detroit Red Wings/Archive 1

Place of Birth
Some of the players on this team have places of birth which no longer exist. Can it please be verified whether this is a mistake, or whether this is intentional as the countries did exist when the player was born? I'd like to pint out that the current convention is to list the current REAL country in which the town lies where the player was born.

Ed Belfour
Belfour hasnt even signed yet with the Wings? Why did anyone add him to the roster? --68.248.15.198 03:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Mr. Belfour just signed with the Florida Panthers for one year so it looks like the Wings will have to stick with Legace. That is a better choice anyway. I think Manny is the best in the league. He has been consistent. Other goalies such as Giguere and Khabibulan have hot streaks that propell them into 15 minutes of fame but Legace is steady. O-TOWN&#39;S AT 22:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

octopi
made seperate section to deal with the tradition of the octopus mascot. help wanted on the spelling of Al Sobatka's name, I'm pretty sure I got it wrong, though that is the correct origin of the "Al" nickname for the octopus.

thanks,

random hero 313

Sure didn't waste any time getting that 2002 championship on there, did you, Boleslav? :-) -- Zoe

List of Detroit Red Wings players
I have started a List of Detroit Red Wings players. It would be a great help if when adding a player to the main Red Wings article, that you could also add it to the list. Thanks! Masterhatch 13 August 2005

Removed Pavel Datsyuk from list of current players.

Current Squad
moved to article ccwaters 01:33, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

i don't know much about the players but one of the players is listed as beiong from czechoslovakia... that country no longer exists he's either czech or slovak..


 * And where he was born was Czechoslovakia. This is a standard form of reference universally used in encyclopedias with biographical entries, and the NHL Media Guide routinely refers to players being born there and in the USSR.  RGTraynor 19:07, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * NHL has Branislav Mezei listed as being born in Nitra, Slovakia. Encycolpedias with biographical entries generally only use no longer existing countries if the person died before the country broke up and add in 'currently known as X'. For entries that were still alive when the country broke up they'll generally use the new name for the country and add 'then known as X'.
 * Further, please see the WikiProject on Ice hockey at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ice_Hockey#Place_of_Birth_Questions_and_Issues to see that we ARE using birth locations at time of birth. scsgoal31 20:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Not to be forgotten
Following current practice, I struck players otherwise listed in the main article. I also deleted Martin Lapointe; I can think of a couple dozen players from the eighty years of Red Wing history I'd sooner include than a third-liner who had a single good season in his career. RGTraynor 13:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Hall of Famers
Following the Team Pages Format, HHOF members who don't follow the criteria of having played several impact seasons for the cited team that meaningfully contributed to their election were deleted: Boivin, Conacher and Harvey. In Bowman's case, he was elected before he was associated with Detroit. RGTraynor 19:52, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Howe or Yzerman?
Now here is a question, who had the better career as a Red Wing? Or to rephrase, who contributed the most to the Red Wings organization. Howe or Yzerman? Its an interesting problem in that they played in two entirely different eras, yet both were the heart and souls of the team for over 20 years. As Yzerman approaches Howe's career point mark (which he might or might not break), and retires and has his #19 retired by the Red Wings, we should be careful that statements saying that Yzerman or Howe was the greatest Red Wing of all-time seep into the article when that is not entirely clear, especially with the problems we've had with the Wayne Gretzky article recently with that kind of statement. But it is a curious question, Howe or Yzerman? Croat Canuck   Go Leafs Go   15:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Unequivocally Howe. Use the Bill James test in discussing each player -- was the player generally regarded as the best player in hockey during his career?  Was he generally regarded as the best player in his position?  Was he ever regarded as the best player at his position?  Yzerman generally fails those tests.  Howe overwhelmingly passes them.  I wouldn't think there'd possibly be a question about it.  RGTraynor 16:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, but Yzerman did return the Red Wings to their glory days of the 40s and 50s. Plus other than Richard (who might have been better than Howe in the first half of his career, and then Hull after Richard declined), I don't think Howe had the burden of having to play in the same era as Lemieux and Gretzky... Now I agree, Howe was the greater player, but perhaps they are quite even in what they accomplished for the Red Wings organization. And plus, I'm sure if Yzerman had the supporting cast of HHOFers Abel, Lindsay and Delvecchio earlier in his career, he might have been considered higher. [[Image:Flag of Croatia.svg|20px]] Croat Canuck [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|20px]]  Go Leafs Go   02:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well ... if we're judging who made the greater contribution to the Red Wings, Howe spearheaded those glory days in the first place, and might well have been happy to have the likes of Lidstrom, Fedorov, Larionov and Co. on his side. Comes down to who is one's more favorite player, possibly, which is a bit too subjective and debatable for an article.  RGTraynor 13:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, no RGTraynor, I'm saying earlier in his career, the 80's and early 90's. Yzerman had Gerard Gallant, maybe Oates before his prime (but he was a second-line centre to Yzerman), Reed Larson perhaps. We aren't talking elite Hall-of-Fame players here (although in my opinion Larson should be in it, although that's a different topic entirely). If you'd like to continue this debate further we should probably move it to our talk pages and stop wasting space here. Feel free to drop a line on mine. [[Image:Flag of Croatia.svg|20px]] Croat Canuck [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|20px]]  Go Leafs Go   03:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * YZERMAN DEFINITELY, HE HELPED BRING THE WINGS OUT OF THE PITS, EARNED THREE CUPS WITH THE HELP OF SHANNY WHO SADLY HAS DEPARTED FOR NEW YORK. PLUS, DON'T YOU REMEMBER THAT BONE CHILLING FACE SHOT HE TOOK VS. THE PREDS LAST PLAYOFFS. COME ON, YZERMAN--STEVIE Y CAN'T BE DENIED THE HONOR OF BEING THE BEST RED WING THERE EVER WAS. O-TOWN&#39;S AT 22:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * First off to O-TOWN'S, Yzerman took the shot to the face against Calgary, not Nashville. And two you cannot debate who is better because of the fact that they both played in 2 different eras, in totally different styles.  They both are awesome, and they both deserve the same amount of recognition.--Wikirockz! 06:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Season-by-season record
As far as I can tell, this is the only team that doesn't have a season-by-season record. Are we that lazy? =) I could start working on it here and then have it transferred over to the article once completed.  I'd need some help though..any volunteers?  We could even start with a base such as the blackhawks, since the seasons and links and table would already be filled in, just have to change the records.  scsgoal31 20:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

OK here I am 2 months later ready to get started on this. If you're bored, fill in some seasons, and move the hiding characters so that we know how far you have gotten. I've finished the cougars years (26-30). Next would be the three years as the Falcons, and then the Wings.

Detroit Falcons

Detroit Red Wings

Clicking on the Season year, and then on the following page clicking on the season year again will give you divisional standings.

I'm not currently worried about keeping track of playoff series outcomes in terms of games or who they lost to like they have on this Blackhawks template I'm using..so I just deleted all that for the years I've done and just put the outcome (Lost in Round 1/2/3/Finals or Won Stanley Cup)

Note: GP = Games played, W = Wins, L = Losses, T = Ties, OTL = Overtime Losses Pts = Points, GF = Goals for, GA = Goals against, PIM = Penalties in minutes


 * 1 Season was shortened due to the 1994-95 NHL lockout.
 * 2 Season was cancelled due to the 2004-05 NHL lockout.

scsgoal31 19:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Current Squad
A few players are missing from this section (Where's Steve Yzerman?). Someone has edited out some Red Wings players, would someone restore these players, please? GoodDay 17:57, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The players that are shown are currently the only Wings officialy under contract. The others are RFA or UFA.  They are still there, just hidden.  If and when any of them re-sign, they can easily be shown again.scsgoal31 15:09, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * However, they don't become RFA or UFA until July 1st, 2006. GoodDay 22:05, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Current Squad II
The current squad is a list of players who have NHL contracts with the Wings...many of whom must either make the squad or be put on waivers to be sent down...surely being taken (in the case of Hudler, for example). Also have some players who may play end up in Grand Rapids in the end (Bootland, Kolanos, Hussey), but they are being given a chance at training camp to compete for a spot at the big club. Please don't assume the Detroit Red Wings official site is the all knowing version of the roster. Cross and Woolley have not and will not be offered new contracts. (scsgoal31 22:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC))
 * Also, RFA's who have been offered a contract but have not yet accepted have been hidden (Franzen and Williams). scsgoal31 22:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Will Hasek wear 39 this season? If he does Franzen will have to change numbers. He is still an RFA.--Tigersfan1992 22:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Vladimir Konstantinov
I want to get a consensus before readding #16 from Vladimir Konstantinov back to the retired jerseys section after it was deleted from the list a couple days ago. It is indeed out of circulation on the Wings, as Brett Hull was required to choose another number when he came here. However, unlike #6 for Larry Aurie, I don't believe the organization has ever made an official statement on the non-use of the number. Do we think it belongs here? scsgoal31 00:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I am all for listing "unofficial" numbers when the citation is properly sourced from the organization. It just strikes me that these unofficial retirements (cf LeClair) are far more often wishful thinking than any actual intent on the organization's part. RGTraynor 06:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Captain
Is there any word on who might be a captain for the 2006-07 season?Ohyeh 20:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The Red Wings website and the Detroit media will know before we will. As of last week, the former wasn't talking and the latter was only speculating.  Such things are almost never announced before well into training camp anyway.  RGTraynor 00:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Will the Red Wings need a captian before the season starts?ohyeh
 * The only legal role of a captain in hockey is the privilege to approach the referee to discuss his calls during a game. Captains are (usually) locker room leaders as well, but "C"s aren't required in order to lead teams.  The short answer is "no."  RGTraynor 16:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree. A captain is indeed required.  NHL Rule 14 (Captain of Team): " One Captain shall be appointed by each Team...(NOTE) Only when the captain is not in uniform, the Coach shall have the right to designate three Alternate Captains." -scsgoal31 22:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You're strongly incorrect. Numerous teams elect, and have on many occasions in the past, not to choose a captain; "shall" does not equate to "must." Atlanta and the Panthers didn't have one in 2003, the Bruins went without one in 2002, Buffalo didn't in 2001, etc etc etc.  In any event, since the legal powers of a captain don't pertain off the ice, Detroit still doesn't need to pick one in the preseason ... or at all, come to that.  They may feel, as did the Rangers this last season with Messier's retirement, that doing so would be disrespectful to Yzerman.   RGTraynor 00:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Added Lidstrom as Captain, Based on reports on WDIV and the Detroit Free Press. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Redwings1914 (talk • contribs) 23:50, 22 August, 2006 (UTC).
 * I reverted your edit. Information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable. Feel free to add this information once a source can be provided. --Muéro 04:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * (reset indent) I reverted an IP edit. Still no official captain yet per this Detroit News article http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060824/SPORTS0103/608240430/1128

A few comments
I apologize for this semi-ranting, but I really want this article to be better. I look forward to discussion on how to improve this article. --Muéro 02:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Why is there a heading titled "1949-80: "Longtimer" Gordie Howe"? Howe played for the Red Wings from 1946 to 1971, not 1949 to 1980.
 * Why is there a heading titled "1980-92: The Captain"? Yzerman played from 1983 to 2006, not 1980 to 1992. The headings seem to contradict themselves.
 * Also, there should be a separate section (maybe 1967 to 1983?) for the "Dead Wings" era. Considering how many times I've seen the term used, I think it should be in this article.
 * Why is there so much detail as to player transactions in recent years, especially non-key players like Mathieu Dandenault and Boyd Devereaux? It seems to me that people think that anything recent must be more important than older years. For an encyclopedia, how important is it that Boyd Devereaux left the team?
 * There seem to be a lot of run-on and otherwise awkward sentences. I will try to work on this, but I encourage others to help.
 * Mm, feel free to make whatever edits you think will improve the article. That being said, the reason why this article obsesses over recent player transactions and history is that most (if not all) of the team articles do.    Worship of the last year or three is endemic in the hockey areas, as it probably is elsewhere on Wikipedia as well.  For example, more detail has been given to the Oilers' and Islanders' respective 2006 seasons than to all of their Stanley Cup wins combined, which is positively perverse.  RGTraynor 05:38, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Red links
I'm trying to get rid of all the red links in the Wings article and was wondering if there are any other site except legendsofhockey.com and hockeydb.com that you guys know of that has good player info. I can find alot, but not everything I need as I'm mostly working on our first round draft picks and sometimes they don't have the best info. Thanks. And if anyone wants to help out with making all the red links blue, that would be great! --Schmackity 15:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Missing Player?
My memory, sometimes eludes me. Where's Greg Johnson?, isn't he a member of the Red Wings this season? I know he's on injured reserve, but shouldn't he be listed on the 'current roster' section? GoodDay 23:59, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I removed him from the list because he's not on the DetroitRedWings.com roster. Babcock said something about Johnson not being in his plans for the season, because he never even practiced with the team. I'm pretty sure his contract isn't official because he did not pass his physical. --Muéro(talk/c) 00:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see. GoodDay 17:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Red Wings captains
I've added 'Rotating captains' to 'team captains' section. Also I've added in (where needed) 'co-captains'. If anyone, disagrees with these edits, then revert them; I won't complain. GoodDay 23:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I like the edits. Clears a few things up for "non-hockey" viewers. --Schmackity 16:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Though the Red Wings official website doesn't list him (therefore I can't add him). Does anyone remember Gerard Gallant serving as Red Wings (interim) captain? during later-half of the 1987-88 NHL season? While Yzerman was out with knee injury? GoodDay 17:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't remember that, I also don't remember Sergei Fedorov having that distinction but people swear it happened. I'd imagine that with all the commerations since his retirement, either of them would have come up if they were true.  DetroitHockey 21:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Fedorov, was an alternate captain, from 1994 to 1997. Succeeded 'Bob Probert', succeeded by 'Niclaus Lidstrom'. GoodDay 23:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Any reason why the pre-1932 team captains aren't listed? DetroitHockey 12:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I haven't a clue as to who were the Cougars & Falcons captains. GoodDay 01:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I've got them, I'll add them. DetroitHockey 18:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Roster players
on the current roster, I recommend taking out players like Hussey and Matt Ellis beause despite the injuries to starters, these guys never play on the roster from my knowledge so they should be moved down to Grand Rapids (AHL). Hasek is the best 04:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The Red Wings official website lists them. That's the only reason (I know of) for keeping them. GoodDay 00:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, well even if they are on the roster, they don't play, so I'm not saying to take them off now, but why the Wings' site didn't take them off. However the players above could just be on the road with the Wings in case of further injuries. Hasek is the best 01:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that seems correct. GoodDay 18:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Hussey, Ellis, Langfeld, Bootland, etc. are mostly on the Wings because of the injuries to Samuelsson, Kopecky, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, etc. And they play almost every game.  Once an injured player returns, another player will be sent to the minors, and the Wings will remove that player from their roster.  For example, Jimmy Howard is listed on the roster because of the injury to Hasek.  Once Hasek is deemed healthy, then Howard is sent back to Grand Rapids and his name is removed from the roster.  So what I'm trying to say is that the "Current Roster" section should be checked daily alongside the roster listed at detroitredwings.com.  The same goes for the alternate captains.  If Zetterberg is out, that means the Wings will appoint another skater to wear the "A".  Datsyuk had been wearing it, but Chelios wore it against the Avs on 3-4-07.  Does this mean the "A" should be removed from Datsyuk and applied to Chelios?  Do you remove it from next to Zetterberg's name?  Or do you just add the "A" next to each player who has worn it most recently?  I like the idea of keeping the "A" next to the originals (Zetterberg, Draper) and making a note about it under the current roster.  What do you think?  TheKuLeR 21:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * My mistake, Chelios and Datsyuk are indeed taking turns wearing an A (while Alternate Captain Henrik Zetterburg, is side-lined). One guy wears the A at home games, the other guy at road games. Therefore the unwiki-linked A's next to Chelios and Datsyuk, are correct. GoodDay 23:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I've added the (home) & (road) discriptions to interim alternates Chelios & Datsyuk. Perhaps similiar discriptions could be added to the other NHL team pages. GoodDay 00:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Removed the (home) & (away) discriptions (made section too cluttered). Just having the A's next to Chelios & Datsyuk is good enough (until Zetterburg returns). GoodDay 20:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh whoops, I left watching this page. Anyway, yeah, sure. Hasek is the best 02:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there any reason that the Wings' official site is used as the standard even when common knowledge proves it to be wrong? The Wings are notoriously bad at keeping their site updated, why should the info here be based on bad info there?  Example:  Right now they've got a handful of players listed who have just about no chance of making their final lineup this fall, and have them listed with the wrong sweater numbers.  Meanwhile, Igor Grigorenko (who is signed and virtually assured a spot in the lineup) is unlisted.  Just wondering.  DetroitHockey 18:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Franchise orgin
The page fails to mention the franchise's actually founding date. The date, when the Victoria Aristocrats (later the Victoria Cougars) came into existants. GoodDay 18:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Which it would, if this was the actual Victoria team. Which it isn't.  This is a persistent legend that has no factual basis.  RGTraynor 20:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I should have read the opening paragraph in the 'Early history' section. Sorry 'bout' that, I'm having a mixed-up kinda day. GoodDay 22:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

March 26, 1997
I did not even see that date mentioned. Wasn't that brawl with the Avalanche significant enough to have a section of the article? Maybe it was there and I just didn't see it, but if it wasn't, it needs to be added. Mattbash 03:25, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Jiri Fischler
Has Fischler retired? He's no longer listed on the 'Current Roster' section. I don't recall hearing of his retirement. GoodDay 23:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, he has not. He is still with the organization who is conditioning if he comes back. Otherwise I would have heard sometime he retired. --Hasek is the best 04:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Jersey Section and more
NO Jersey section. For an Original Six team that has one of the NHL's best Uniforms, this is a bad leave-out. There should be a section entitled to the uniforms; their colors and history. Also, team mascot needs to be mentioned. I think Octupi are described throughout, so maybe Al the Octopus can be added somewhere in there...unless he already is, which in that case I apologize for in advance. Love each other, or perish. ~Auden 00:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Owner Nationality
Would someone PLEASE make a final decision on the nationality of the team's owner? It's been changed back and for for a week+Dp76764 03:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Number of Stanley Cups
I would greatly appreciate assistance in telling Ottawa Senators fans that their team did not win 11 stanley cups. If someone would help clarify this on their page (the original era Ottawa Senators) that would be very helpful. Unfortunately due to the team winning championship games in those seasons but not retaining the title at seasons ends counts as a stanley cup victory. The detroit Redwings are clearly the team with the third most chamionships, and these fans of a deceased team will not allow any changes to this number on that page. If people would like to help and look intoi this matter and clarify it it would be greatly appreciated and we could remove that addition i have made. I am terribly confused as to what that number should be for the number of stanley cup chamionships the original ottawa senators i had. I believe this number should be 9 not 11.Jgale061 01:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that this citation should be completely removed from this article. It has been strongly debated as to whether the original Ottawa Senators even won 2 of those Stanley Cups, but there's more to it. The paragraph describes that the Detroit Red Wings have won the most championships for any US team in the NHL; thus, its context is directly relating to how many Stanley Cups have been won while a part of the National Hockey League. The problem is that the "Original" Ottawa Senators weren't even in the NHL until it was formed in 1917, after which they only won 4 times. The statement, as it is currently, is deceptive at the very least, or just plain inaccurate at its most. I am going to remove it and reference this discussion. Buzzfledderjohn 02:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

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