Talk:Deus Ex (video game)/Archive 3

Mediation
A mediation cabal request was filed - the page with relevant discussion is here. My recommendation is to leave all links to any mods that have not profoundly effected the course of game development out of the main text. If it is a notable mod, an external link at the bottom of the page with a short explanation is sufficient. If you would like to comment on my resolution before it is finalized, do so now. &mdash;  ßott    e    siηi   (talk) 19:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I would like some clarification on what you would consider valid methods for determining whether or not a mod is "notable". More info on the Mediation Case page. - Y&#124;yukichigai 23:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, well, with the clarification I'd like to propose a... erm... proposal. I do think the overview "flows" much better without the mod names in there, but I also think there are several relevant and/or important mods missing from the external mod links; (yes, Shifter included) I don't have a complete list yet, but off the top of my head some relevant "missing" mods include The Cassandra Project, Hotel Carone, Burden of 80 Proof, and Hardcore.  I will make a case for each, as well as my own mod, if asked.  There also, I think, is some merit to a small "Mods" section in the article, not necessarily mentioning any of the mods by name.  (There is plenty in the world of Deus Ex modding to talk about other than what mods came out) - Y&#124;yukichigai 10:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

JC standing for Jesus Christ
I'm going to change the paragraph in the Etymology section on JC's name. The current paragraph suggests that JC has nothing to do Jesus. It refrences Sheldon Pacotti(Deus Ex's writer) saying that the name was used for its unisex properties. However, after searching, I can't find one interview with the guy making any comment about JC's name. Furthermore, Harvey Smith, the lead designer of Deus Ex, says in one of the cited interviews, says:

"We were even going to mix in religion with the first game. A lot of people don't know this but J.C. Denton was supposed to be a descendant of Jesus Christ. We were going to pick up the old theory that Jesus had kids and that J.C. Denton had DNA from Jesus. When you mix those elements around you come up with these recurring patterns."

The new paragraph sticks to the facts and leaves speculation to the reader.

--Mitaphane 23:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Perfectly fine, but I've added Pacotti's statement back in, because I've definitely read that somewhere before. I'll post the reference when I find it; it might be in a magazine. --Chrismith 03:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I couldn't find the Pacotti quote, but I did find an interview in which Warren Spector says essentially the same thing. I attributed this to Spector in the article and linked it to the interview. -- Chrismith 04:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reference. I've modified the paragraph to better state that the origin of the name JC is speculative at best. --Mitaphane 03:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"Theme" Section
The "Theme" section that was recently added was arguable, unimportant to the article, and could be considered original research (as it was marked), so I was bold and removed it. --Chrismith 16:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's ok... It wasn't that good anyway... --UVnet 07:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It did kind of stick out like a sore thumb, but I think some of the information mentioned in it might be worth noting elsewhere in the article. Also, I can't find links to anything off the top of my head, but I could swear there were other reviews/articles/etc. which mentioned things similar to what was in the section, particularly the bit about Smuggler et al supporting a Jeffersonian interpretation of freedom.  Arrrggh... that's going to drive me nuts.  Y&#124;yukichigai 04:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"Jesus Christ, JC"
User Deuxhero has now twice added the fact that UNATCO troopers are heard to exclaim, "Jesus Christ, JC!" during battles to the section about Denton's name supposedly standing for "Jesus Christ." This does not belong in the article -- the phrase is just being used as a common exclamation; maybe it's just a regional thing, but people where I live (in the States) say it all the time. The troopers are not calling Denton "Jesus Christ." Even if this was an intentional reference by the developers (which I doubt) it has little significance and doesn't warrant inclusion in the article. --Chrismith 22:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Unless there can be shown evidence that this is intentional they're actually referring to him as Jesus Christ there is no reason to include this. --Crossmr 22:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Chrismith; the expression is common here in the US, and doesn't necessarily imply anything. While it could be an intentional inclusion by the game devs there is no evidence at all which supports that.  It's a good bit of info if you're trying to make an argument about how JC is supposed to stand for Jesus Christ, interesting even, but for NPOV content like the article (is supposed to be) it's irrelevant. --Y&#124;yukichigai 23:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Places
I'm seeing references to Paris and New York. Perhaps the article should include something on the plot and where it takes place. PeepP 21:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The history shows references to a "Plot" section some time in the past, but now it's gone. What happened to it? The plot summary would be a good place to link to the locations and characters currently only available from the infobox. --70.142.40.34 11:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't remember. When was it removed? Feel free to start a new one.--Drat (Talk) 11:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
I added a Citation tag to the recently-added comment about a reference to an album. I don't remember the scene in the game, and if that's all there is to it, there needs to be further evidence to support this. --70.142.40.34 11:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The scene is in the game, but I don't know if it's supposed to be a reference to anything. I agree that this needs a citation. --Chrismith 15:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Robots in deus ex
Can you all go look at the brand new article Robots in deus ex. Does it merit a page (ie, is it notable)? What categories does it belong in? Is it original research or can references be added? Can you wikilink it to appropriate articles? Et cetera, et cetera.... GRBerry on New Page Patrol 17:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No, at best it should be merged with List of enemies in Deus Ex. It needs to be edited for grammar, style, and factual accuracy. (I'm pretty sure Spider Bots have 4 or 6 legs.) --70.142.40.34 18:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this topic is notable enough. However, some statements might be just speculation: for instance, I doubt that it's at least assumed anywhere that small spider bots are used for repairs. They have 6 limbs, by the way. The article needs very serious corrections. CP/M 18:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

robots in deus ex is good
I think robots in deus ex is a good, informative article. It requires polishing, but the topic does merit an article in itself. Put a 'clean-up' tag on the article.

Merge 'dragons tooth sword' into 'weapons in deus ex?'
The article Dragon's Tooth Sword (Deus Ex) should not be merged into Weapons in Deus Ex. Upon reading both articles, it seems that 'Weapons in deus ex' provides a factual report about each weapon: ammunition, statistics, characteristics etc. whereas 'Dragons Tooth Sword (Deus Ex)' provides information on the weapons relevance to the storyline of the game. There's no point merging the two articles; doing so would make for clumsy reading in the otherwise superb 'Weapons in Deus Ex' page.


 * Quite possibly, though some people might doubt that at some point. The article might seem lacking references, at least some. CP/M 18:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

the deus ex box thing
hi, fellas (and gals). can someone please edit the deus ex topic box thing to include robots in deus ex. if you don't know what i mean, here it is as it currently stands:

Topic Box
Yes, could somebody (because I don't know how) edit the Deus Ex topic Box to have 'edit', 'talk', and 'view' hyperlinks, so that it is more accessable to other users. I have located it at Template:Deus_Ex. The 'Simpsons' Topic box has a good example of this in its top right hand corner: Template:The_Simpsons

References, citations and footnotes
Because I know this will come up, I do not per se have a problem with changing the current citation method from external HTML links to footnotes. However, the Modding Links section (and perhaps other sections in the future) use the "ref" tags for footnotes, because as far as I can make out that's the only way to do footnotes here. Because of the structure there is no way that I can discern to separate the references from the footnotes and still place the list of references at the end of the article. If someone knows how to do this, or knows a less obstructive way to do footnotes, please let me know how and/or change the Modding Links section's footnotes so they use that method. In the meantime please be careful when using the "ref" tag. -- Y&#124;yukichigai 12:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The most interactive game
This game is the most interactive game that i have ever played. The gameplay of the game is amazing, their should be more games made that are interactive as Deus Ex. Anyone else agrees put your sigitare below this comment. --Marbus2 5 16:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * As much as I agree, this isn't the place, and a bunch of signatures here isn't going to influence anything. Hopefully Bioshock and games like it will wake people up to the potentials of this kind of game.--Drat (Talk) 22:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Serious cleanup
Why is all the stuff about the modding community on the main page for this article? Those few bits which deserve to be in an encyclopedia in the first place would be far better off in a "Deus Ex Mods" article. I've just had an edit reverted because the references section is being used to hold random mod footnotes (but more on that below).

I'm planning on reincorporating the changes I made, which include using the new refs system. I'd ideally like someone more familiar with the Deus Ex modscene to move the mod-related stuff to its own main article, but I'll do it myself if need be. Chris Cunningham 18:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Look two sections up. There is no "references" section, and what you modified was a subsection of the Modding Links section. (Check the article contents box to see what I mean) The article currently uses External HTML Links as the citation standard, which is perfectly acceptable according to Citing_sources.  The "references" and "ref" tags simply have an unfortunate name, as all they are really is footnote tags, which is exactly what they're being used for.  Honestly, there isn't quite enough information to move mods to a separate "Deus Ex Mods" article; there's enough for a section within the article when I get around to fleshing the information out a bit, but at the moment you're talking about moving nothing but a group of links to a separate article. -- Y&#124;yukichigai 23:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree about the amount of material, but I'll experiment and see what I can do. Thanks for compromising on the refs. Chris Cunningham 08:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've split the mods section off. I think it'd make an excellent article in itself. I've also reduced the number of extlinks significantly as per the style guidelines: I've left the templated ones and the ones to the most well-known review/resource sites but killed pretty much anything I didn't recognise. If these are added back, please do so in moderation (the old extlinks section took up fully half of the article's TOC). Next thing is to change the refs style for the article as previously, because the old footnotes have been split off into the sub-article. Chris Cunningham 10:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * A number of significant links were removed, notably the Fileplanet link (useful for getting patches) and deusexgaming.com, which is probably one of the only non-modding-related (exclusively anyway) DX websites that is still updated to date.
 * I'd rather not have resource links in the article, but I'd rather have one then ten (as compared to some recent wars I've ben in). Cheers. Chris Cunningham 00:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * PlanetDeusEx is no longer updated, so I'll add a note to that effect. There should also be a "See Also" section with related Deus Ex articles listed, or something like that.  I don't have a full list handy, but I know there's now Weapons in Deus Ex, Robots in Deus Ex, and now Deus Ex mods, not to mention a few others whose precise names I've forgotten. ("Enemies in Deus Ex", "Quotes in Deus Ex" I think, etc.)
 * Excellent. Sub-articles are perfect See Also material. Chris Cunningham 00:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If the mods list is going to remain a separate article (which, I do have to admit, does make the main article look a bit better) it will need to be fleshed out significantly, as will the modding section within the main article. (though not to the same extent) I warn you: I am going to add a lot of information.  A lot.  More than you probably ever wanted to know about modding in Deus Ex, but then again it's now an article about nothing but that. -- Y&#124;yukichigai 21:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I support this. WP isn't a just a web-directory, and the modding page is the place for related information. It will become more practical that way. CP/M 23:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Font
The following was removed from the article:

The main font used in the game is Handel Gothic.

I'm not going to restore it, because it is pretty trivial, but come on, it was in the trivia section. Where do you think that word comes from? Anyway, I've mentioned it here because I, at least, thought it was an interesting bit of information. --Chrismith 04:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Surely there is a limit on how trivial info added is. Ultimately, things like that should be integrated into the prose where possible (and relevant), or removed altogether. I don't see a place for info on the font unless it is important in some way.--Drat (Talk) 04:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You'd be surprised how many people are interested in that sort of thing. I don't understand, what's wrong with just putting it in the trivia section?-- Grandpafootsoldier
 * The point of the matter is that there shouldn't even be a trivia section, especially if the article is ever to be raised to featured quality. Such lists of random facts don't really belong. Ideally such information should be found a place in the prose and the section ultimately removed. In some ways, a trivia section is almost a way of saying "Hey, I think this is interesting", which is of course POV. Like I said above, at the very least there has to be some kind of limit on the triviality of the info added, otherwise we'll end up with entries like

--Drat (Talk) 07:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Throwing a basketball through the hoop the first time you visit Hell's Kitchen results in the message "Sign him up for the Knicks!"; doing it on the next visit yields "What are you playing basketball for? Go cowboys!"
 * And that seems like exactly the sort of thing that does in fact belong in the Trivia section. Pull the broomstick out, Drat. Clayhalliwell 02:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Like I said above, ideally there shouldn't even BE a trivia section.--Drat (Talk) 06:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That's absurd. Deus Ex is a videogame... an entertainment product. A trivia section isn't to be derided-- it's practically expected. Look at the entry for Pulp Fiction. It has a trivia section (entitled "Miscellany") that's almost two pages long.


 * I agree. I don't really understand what the big problem is with a trivia section. - Grandpafootsoldier
 * The problem is Drat. He's internalized some exaggerated notion of Wikipedia standards which aren't reflected by reality. Probably gets away with it a lot too, since most people don't like getting into edit wars. Clayhalliwell 15:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I was the one who thought it to be a neat idea to include the tidbit of the game's font, which is called Handel Gothic BT. BT is the specific name as there are a few other styles of Handel Gothic.  I didn't mean to start a big debate in the discussion area.  I just thought it was fine to include as #1:  It's a fact and #2:  There are some folks interested in little things like that.  I wonder if the users here think we could re-include it.  --Sivak 02:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry Sivak, debates are exactly what the discussion area is for. Helps keep the article histories manageable. I, personally, agree that the game font is the sort of information that fans of the game would find interesting. And it's not as if fonts aren't a valid subject here at Wikipedia. For example, this article. Clayhalliwell 14:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

GOTY box image vs. original box image
I noticed the switch from the original box image for Deus Ex to the newer Game of the Year edition image. It's not like it has a huge impact on the article, but I do think the original box image is a little better suited towards being a representative image of the game, most games in general in fact. If for nothing else, the new box art is "bright", which the actual game is not, and it's a bit cluttered with the repeated mention of the fact that it is the Game of the Year edition. That may cross the lines from NPOV to personal taste, but that's just my impression.

Like I said, it's not significant really, just sort of a visual thing. A product picture is a product picture. However, if someone can find the original box art without the other various box decorations on it, e.g. publisher name, developer name, rating, etc., I would contend that it would be a better image for the game than any picture of the product, original or GOTY.

Anyway, just my opinion. I don't really care much, the change just brought it to my attention and I thought it might be worth discussing. -- Y&#124;yukichigai 21:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I didn't found a clean art, though, so I just put the old picture back. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 10:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Who MUST be killed ??
HI Guys, Question: It says that one can play the Game throught with killing only 1 Person. Who is this ?? Walton Simons must be killed, this can be done without firing a gun by making him running on the electric rail. The Guy in the military base, where the A-Bomb will start, i dont remember if he must be killed. For the moment i dont remember other persons... Edit: Anna Navarre, she must be killed with firepower, is this right ?? Also Gunther ?!?

--Killto (german Wikipedia)


 * Simons need not be killed; in the sealab you can just run by him, and in the later, optional encounter you can get by him as well, though it's a bit more tricky. Anna and Gunther have to die, but you can hold off on fighting them and just invoke their killswitches, though with Gunther you have to make a decision early in the game in order to be able to get his killswitch.  The only person who has to be killed by the player (were it not for a glitch) is the guy in the missile silo who's planning on blowing up the missile before it launches; I'm pretty sure his name in Nathan Madison.  Anyway, he's on a cherry-picker lift and is armed with a pistol, but because of the arc of the arm on the lift you can run directly under him.  When you do that half the time he'll keep shooting and wind up shooting himself in the foot.  Do this enough and he'll kill himself, which is how you can complete the game without killing or incapacitating anyone. -- Y&#124;yukichigai 01:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The missile silo guy: His name is Howard Strong.  Not Nathan Madison.  And he is the only one that must truly be killed or incapacitated.  Anna Navarre is tricky, but it can be avoided.  Guther and Simons you can simply run away from.  --Sivak 02:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi, how can Anna be avoided ?!? One doesn't get the key the UNATCO Front Door from Jaime Reyes until shes dead. BTW: By killing, i also mean th use of the non-lethal weapons. Maybe the Question should be reformulated to "Which enemy can't be avoided by sneaking around or running away ?" I'm asking that because i want to play the game through by using no weapons at all (exception scrambler, EMP and Pepper, because these are no permanent attacks). And my main problems are: Anna (i get no key with her not dead), Gunther (needs to be killed in order to talk to Simons), that guy in the missile silo --149.243.232.3 11:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC) Killto (german Wikipedia)


 * To avoid Anna, it is very difficult. You need to injure her to the point of where she flees from you.  From there, you need to hope she runs to that locked door and opens it.  NPCs can open locked doors without a hitch.  If she opens it for you, you're good to go.  The only other possibility is a UNATCO troop to open it for you.  I find it to be more trouble to try this than it's worth.  It can take a long time.


 * For Gunther, you really don't need to kill him at all. Just access the computer terminal and run.  It is not required to talk to Simons anyway.  All he does is taunt you.


 * Your only bet for Howard Strong is to hope an NPC gets him for you. Ich sehe daß Sie Deutscher sind.  Hoffentlich habe ich Ihnen geholfen.  :)  --Sivak 23:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sehr sogar, Danke :D Ok i'll try it that way. Looks like Anna will be the only exception i make, because I play "Realistic" and making her flee into the right direction sounds some kind of impossible :D --Killto


 * But, since this is properly processed further, it was an intentional option. BTW, I also only use Realistic skill, but successfully done that - it just takes some good moves and fitting implants. CP/M (Wikipedia Neutrality Project) 09:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)