Talk:Deus Ex (video game)/Archive 8

Reference material
To begin with, here are all of the sources previously linked on this talk page: Now to find new stuff. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 17:27, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The Deleted Scenes of Deus Ex at USGamer used in dev
 * Postmortem: Ion Storm's Deus Ex at Gamasutra shorter version of the Game Developer mag article but has more primary source docs, used in dev
 * A Spector Haunts Gaming at GameSlice more about Spector than the game, saving for his bio article
 * Warren Spector Interview at IGN
 * For All Games: A Warren Spector Interview at Gamasutra
 * Warren Spector's Next-Gen Storytelling at The Escapist
 * Deus Ex's script at GameFAQs (for plot references)
 * Computer Games Magazine Preview
 * Computer Games Magazine Preview
 * Computer Games Magazine Preview
 * Computer Games Magazine Feature, Part 1
 * Computer Games Magazine Feature, Part 2
 * Games Master UK Preview/Interview (PS2)
 * Warren Spector interview at Ion Storm
 * Deus Ex Spotlight Interview at TechTV
 * The Making of Deus Ex at Edge

Non-review material

 * 20 Questions with Warren Spector at GameSpy
 * 20 Questions with Harvey Smith at GameSpy
 * Deus Ex in the GameSpy Hall of Fame
 * Deus Ex 2 interview at PC Zone (contains Deus Ex 1 info)
 * Interview at WarZone
 * Chris Norden interview at Gamer's Digest
 * Warren Spector Soapbox from Game Developer Magazine (reproduced at Ion Storm)
 * Interview 2 at WarZone
 * Deus Ex Bulletin Board Q & A at Ion Storm
 * Deus Ex Team Update
 * CGW January 1999 "Game Updates"
 * Worlds Apart at RPGVault
 * PC Games feature on Anachronox and Deus Ex
 * Deus Ex Team Update
 * Deus Ex interview at RPGVault
 * Deus Ex Week at Daily Radar
 * PCParadox interview
 * GameGirlz interview
 * Stormtroopers interview
 * Stormtroopers interview 2
 * Unreal Universe interview
 * U-Games interview
 * Adrenaline Vault E3 preview
 * U-Games preview
 * Stormtroopers interview 3
 * DXNation interview
 * U-Games interview 2
 * GameSpot interview
 * IGN interview
 * Stormtroopers interview 4
 * GameSpot UK interview
 * Unreal Universe interview 2
 * GA-RPG interview
 * Unreal Universe interview 3
 * Unreal Universe interview 4
 * DXM interview
 * DXM interview 2
 * DXM interview 3
 * David Perry interview
 * AVault E3 award
 * GamesFirst E3 preview
 * GameSpot E3 preview
 * GameSlice E3 award
 * PCParadox preview/interview
 * Games Domain preview
 * GameSpy preview
 * Eurogamer preview
 * Daily Radar preview
 * Gamers Central preview
 * GameSpy Deus Ex Bible (probably the best and lengthiest behind-the-scenes available for Deus Ex)
 * GameSpy interview
 * GameSpy Behind the Scenes
 * Harvey Smith's devblog: DE screenshot and update, progress update
 * Harvey Smith's devblog: weapon design
 * Beyond3D interview
 * Harvey Smith's devblog: Generic Update
 * Harvey Smith's devblog: deus ex update
 * Voodoo Extreme interview
 * Redchurch sound interview
 * Deus Ex Team Update at Ion Storm
 * Planet Deus Ex interview
 * Planet Deus Ex interview 2
 * Planet Deus Ex interview 3
 * Planet Deus Ex interview 4
 * Planet Deus Ex interview 5
 * Planet Deus Ex interview 6
 * Planet Deus Ex interview 7
 * Todd Porter interview at GA-Source
 * GameSpot UK interview 2
 * GameSpot UK Ion Brew feature
 * Alpha and Beyond: Deus Ex Team Prepares for E3, Warren Spector: From the Designer's Desk at Ion Storm
 * Next Generation May 1999 feature: 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37
 * Next Generation December 1999 preview: 32, 34
 * Questions of the Day
 * Eurogamer interview part 1
 * Eurogamer interview part 2
 * Preview at IGN
 * Preview 2 at IGN
 * Interview at IGN
 * GameSpot preview 1
 * GameSpot preview 2
 * GameSpot preview 3
 * Ion Storm Austin visit by GameSpy
 * Deus-Ex.org interview
 * InsideMacGaming news story
 * Voice acting article
 * PC GameWorld interview
 * RPGVault feature 1
 * RPGVault feature 2
 * MSNBC interview
 * Deus Ex 2 Scoop at GameSpy
 * Rock, Paper, Shotgun (RPS) interview with Spector and continuing Eurogamer 2007 Spector interview
 * PC Gamer scan archive
 * ... wat. czar ♔   04:09, 9 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Game manual (for Gameplay citations)

Reviews

 * PC Gamer UK
 * Computer Gaming World
 * Computer Games Magazine
 * GamePro
 * MacWorld
 * PC Zone
 * Next Generation September 2000 review: 96, 97
 * Electronic Gaming Monthly June 2002 review: 110 (Deus Ex: The Conspiracy)
 * Official US PlayStation Magazine (Deus Ex: The Conspiracy)
 * Game Informer (Deus Ex: The Conspiracy)
 * PC Gamer US September 2000 review: 82, 83, 84, 86
 * GamePro (Deus Ex: The Conspiracy)

Coordination
To pick up from GamerPro64's talk page, I started working on a draft of Development, which I'll have more time to continue over the weekend. Would either of you want to start with Gameplay or Reception? czar ♔   06:44, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that I work best when it comes to Reception sections. I think I'll tackle that one. GamerPro64  11:58, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Might be best to wait for me to finish digging up material. When I wrote Flight Unlimited, I had to do 1-2 massive rewrites of the Dev section because I found new sources. It's a lot easier when you have everything in front of you at the start. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 18:40, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Development sources are pretty much handled now. I really don't know what more information could exist than what I've already found. If you need me to locate anything else related to DE's development, though, let me know. I'll gather reviews for the game later tonight. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:12, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think there are a couple of Next Gen features I need to scan, but there probably won't be any paradigm shifts in them. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:14, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, : don't worry about reliability issues on any of these sources. I can justify all of them if they come up during a review. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 03:14, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
 * 10-4, thanks for the heads up (and thank you for finding these!) czar ♔   03:17, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem. And I grabbed some reviews for you. I also sent in a request to User:SubSeven for the PC Gamer US review. If you need more than that, let me know. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 21:00, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
 * That's dynamite. I'm working on the Reception in my sandbox and I'll let you know if I need anything else. GamerPro64  21:33, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
 * That's some incredible work you've done in your sandbox—and only from two sources so far. Are you planning to write a "Development of Deus Ex" article and just summarize it in this one? Also, to you and I'll be available to copyedit everything once you guys have finished. I may have retired from article writing, but I have no problem doing janitor duty for an exciting project like this one. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 04:13, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, JB! Let me know if you have any feedback. Yes, the separate development article's the plan—wanted to surprise you but, well, these sources are pretty long. czar ♔   04:16, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * That development section is insane. Do you plan to expand it even further with the other sources? JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:53, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Missed this reply, but I suppose it fits with my answer just below czar ♔   00:42, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

You know that "every time you mention it, someone will reinstall it"? I'm kicking myself for not spending $1.80 in the Steam summer sale last week... czar ♔   17:57, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Ha! I still have a hard copy lying around somewhere. Should probably play it and Invisible War again at some point. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 18:08, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Turns out I did even better—whole series is on 24h flash sale at Green Man right now and has an extra 20% off coupon. Picked up the whole series for $8.80, so I essentially got The Fall for free. For those interested, czar ♔   15:03, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Okay, it's up: Development of Deus Ex. I can't look at it anymore or I'll go crazy, but I'm willing to take that risk if you have feedback. I dropped an abridged version in the main article and I'll continue to trim it back, but feel free to take an axe to it wherever necessary. czar ♔   00:25, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll copyedit it soon, and let you know if I notice anything then. Also, did the rest of the sources turn out to be redundant, or are you putting off further expansion until later? JimmyBlackwing (talk) 00:34, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Cool—thanks. So, many of them were redundant to the mega-postmortem or not completely about the original game (almost trivia). My plan is to come back to it in a bit and add the final touches. I'm a WP completionist so my proclivity is to do the rest of the Deus Ex series now, so I'm trying to hold that back until I have enough time to do the development for Invisible War and build out Spector's bio concurrently. I'm also not sure how the scope of that FT would work czar ♔   00:42, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about a topic based on the "Deus Ex" series? Because I'd expect the development pages would have to be part of it. GamerPro64  00:46, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, but only asking figuratively. I wasn't sure how many of the links (namely, the people) in Deus Ex series would need to be included. A bunch of the links can be merged or removed too, but I was going to get to that later czar ♔   01:17, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * A Deus Ex series topic would have to include this article, Invisible War, Human Revolution, The Fall, JC Denton, Project Snowblind, The Nameless Mod, all relevant sub-articles and the Deus Ex series article. I don't think that it would be necessary to include the people who worked on the games. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:21, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

So far I cleaned up the "Awards and accolades" and added a table for its awards that it won. Gonna need to clean up the third paragraph though but I think it looks better than before. GamerPro64 02:30, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Supposedly it won over 30 "best of" awards that year. Any idea how to go about compiling them? My idea for that last paragraph was to list the magazines that put it in a top five then top ten, etc. instead of saying #49 in X, #5 in Y czar ♔   03:18, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll be taking on gameplay from now on. I started a draft on my sanbox page and it should be done within a week or so, depending on my work. GamerPro64  JimmyBlackwing czar  ♔   URDNEXT (talk) 01:31, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Problems with Development so far
More later. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:16, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) The X-Files started eight months after the release of Ultima Underworld II. It's not clear how Troubleshooter could have been influenced by it. Spector appears to contradict the Ultima Underworld II line in this 1999 interview and this 2000 interview, which describe the evolution of Troubleshooter in great detail. This interview clarifies that the X-Files/conspiracy angle was introduced after Troubleshooter was revived at Ion Storm.
 * 2) Junction Point was not Troubleshooter; it was a MMORPG influenced by ideas from Troubleshooter. Spector clarifies that in the 1999 GameSpot interview above.
 * He began thinking about it in 1993 with that release, according to the postmortem, but it's possible that the title Troubleshooter and its documentation came periodically and much later. I can clarify that JP was similar but not the same (he made the connection, not me). As for the new info with citation flags—I think that may be a bit too detailed for what we need in this article, though I'd be happy to cite it in the full Development article czar ♔   03:18, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. And yeah, I think you should expand on the origin of Troubleshooter with those other sources. For example: that it was conceived and pitched after System Shock, that it wasn't JP, and that the original "Tom Clancy" realism was combined with The X-Files only after it was revived at Ion Storm. It's important to keep the timeline accurate in a large, chronological section like this. I'll get back to copyediting now. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 16:11, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Deus Ex mods
Talk:Deus Ex mods has discussed a mergeback sine 2008. Once the cruft was cut out, it's hard to see what a separate mods article would entail that couldn't fit into the parent article's Mods/Release section. czar ♔   10:08, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. I agree, a very quick glance suggested to me that most of the article's content could easily fit in the relevant section of the main article --Topperfalkon (talk) 01:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. I also agree. Not enough for a separate article. This can be easily merged back into the parent article. CR 4 ZE  (t &bull; c) 14:34, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Support Probably not notable enough to be on its own, it's better off in the main article too... ☠ Jag  uar  ☠ 20:29, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Characters and organizations subarticles
We currently have separate articles for Deus Ex characters and Organizations in Deus Ex, mostly unsourced, mostly cruft. Thoughts on whether they should be merged? czar ♔   11:18, 4 July 2014 (UTC) , is there any character/organization content you feel is worth merging? Or just redirect? I'll let you handle what you want to merge. I can handle the mods merge, as it's a bit more clear-cut czar ♔   17:47, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I say merge both, along with Deus Ex mods. They aren't notable enough to have their own articles. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 17:06, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah it probably uncontroversial to say that these articles should be merged into this one. GamerPro64  17:13, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I merged the one notable piece of information from the articles. Redirect the rest. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 17:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Literary and popular culture allusions
thumb|200px|An example of the text system in the game showing a passage from the novel [[The Man Who Was Thursday]] Deus Ex features a text-reading system that allows the player to read terminals and notes, as well as excerpts from newspapers and books found in various locations within the game level. These various bits of media serve a variety of purposes, from providing the player with useful gameplay information (such as a needed keycode), to the advancement of the plot, to the creation of atmosphere and metafictional irony. It is this last aspect that is most prevalent in the novels found in Deus Ex, with excerpts usually providing reflective commentary on the player's current situation. Such real-life works as The Man Who Was Thursday by G. K. Chesterton, Sun Tzu's The Art of War, Common Sense by Thomas Paine, and Shakespeare's Richard III are used for this purpose throughout the game.

Along with these is Jacob's Shadow, a work of fiction created by Chris Todd, one of the writers for the game. It is attributed to the fictitious author Andrew Hammond (in homage to crime writer Andrew Vachss).

The first chapter displayed is Chapter Twelve with a subsequent six other chapters (fifteen, twenty, twenty-three, twenty-seven, thirty-two, and thirty-four) that portray the cyberpunk themes of the game in the style of William Gibson. The book appears to be a violent, spiritual journey of a man named Jacob as he searches for a woman, who is never named, through a city described as 'Hell'. A chapter from a "sequel" to Jacob's Shadow, titled Jacob's War, can be found in the game's sequel Deus Ex: Invisible War.

A number of other more subtle fiction references also permeate the game. For instance, The Man Who Was Thursday protagonist Gabriel Syme's name appears in a hotel register, along with the names of fellow literary characters Gully Foyle, Oberst Enzian, Smilla Jasperson, and Hippolyta Hall (from the The Stars My Destination, Gravity's Rainbow, Smilla's Sense of Snow, and various DC Comics series respectively). Another comic reference is "Harleen Quinzel", being an MJ12 employee who sends an e-mail out about a "company picnic". Other literary sources alluded to include Olaf Stapledon's Last and First Men, Neal Stephenson's cyberpunk novel The Diamond Age, Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, and the Ancient Greek myth of Icarus and Daedalus. The name of the AI Helios and the merging of JC with it may also be a reference to Euripedes' Medea, Medea appearing at the end of the play in the sun god Helios' chariot (a machine from the gods). Continuing the seam of literature references, "O" and "René" from Histoire d'O can be found in conversation in Flat 12 in Paris.

Allusions are also incorporated into computer security passwords and e-mails encountered during the course of the game. An instance of this is the code "reindeerflotilla", a password originally used in the 1982 science fiction film Tron. Another is an e-mail found on Paul Denton's computer containing a notice from a movie rental company. It mentions the fictional movies See You Next Wednesday and Blue Harvest. "See You Next Wednesday" is a reference to the famous signature appearing in most of John Landis' films, while Blue Harvest was the code name used during the filming of Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi. Gunther's killphrase "Laputan Machine" is a reference to the fictional island of Laputa from Gulliver's Travels.

This practice also extends to the ubiquitous key codes found in most levels of the game, with examples including the first door-code in the game being "0451", "an allusion to System Shock's allusion to Fahrenheit 451 (the first code in System Shock was also 451)" according to Harvey Smith, as well as the sequence "8675309" opening the only 7-digit key code lock in the game. There also exists a "Lord Brinne" tombstone found in the Lower East Side Cemetery level, which is actually a memorial for the real life Bill Iburg, an RPG fan and regular of multiple forums who died in 1999. The name "Marcy Plaigrond" is also tucked into a message cube in Paul Denton's secret computer room, referring to the band Marcy Playground.

Organizations in Deus Ex
Two Articles, Organizations in Deus Ex & Deus Ex Characters have been redirected to this article. Consequently, the content on those articles is not easily accessible. Therefore, I have merged some of the content from Deus Ex organizations into this article. I've created a new section called Organizations in Deus Ex and copied relevant material from that article. The problem is that because Deus Ex characters has also been redirected, the links are broken.

Is redirection of those two articles necessary? Merging the content from both articles may result in this article becoming long and messy, in addition to breaking the hyperlinks. Should we not attempt to fix up the 'Deus Ex Characters' and 'Organizations in Deus Ex' articles, rather than redirect them? If the article is really bad, it should probably be either edited and cleaned up or deleted but not a "quick fix" redirection. If the article has problems, then appropriate tags should be added so that the issues can be corrected.

--Hrbm14 (talk) 02:48, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * See the discussion above. The extant reliable sources did not cover the organizations or the characters of the game in such depth as to constitute significant coverage. czar ♔   05:00, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


 * This section is too detailed for an encyclopedia article that is meant to give an overview of the game. The content unfortunately appears to tick many of the boxes associated with WP:GAMEGUIDE/WP:CRUFT - it would be far better suited to somewhere like the Deus Ex Wiki than an encyclopedia. The key facts necessary to understanding the plot are already summarised in the Synopsis section. Seeing as it almost dwarfs the rest of the article and makes it unwieldy I've been bold and deleted it. (It can still be accessed by going through the article's history.) Una LagunaTalk 09:52, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Critical response
I think that for a game widely considered one of the best ever the critical response section shouldn't almost entirely focus on what reveiewers were NOT fond of.2001:DA8:B807:3106:3027:10E8:6501:DDA2 (talk) 15:40, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Deus Ex (series) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:47, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Design document published
Gamasutra has published an annotated version of the original design document for DX. I think this would be reasonable to include as an EL for the page, but looking to get opinions first. --M ASEM (t) 16:21, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Deus Ex postmortem by Warren Spector at GDC 2017
Warren Spector did a postmortem of Deus Ex at GDC 2017, the video of which is freely available at: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024338/Classic-Game-Postmortem-Deus-Ex

Tidbits:


 * JC stands for Jesus Christ ("Jesus Christ, Denton!")


 * The WTC towers being left out were an oversight — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.3.145.175 (talk) 17:42, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

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Ref ideas
Moved from talk page. AIRcorn (talk) 03:21, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

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