Talk:Deutscher Musikrat

Omission of definite article
I am opposed to referring to this title without "the", in cases where German would use the article "der/den/des/dem". As painful as it might be to a native German speaker to use it in conjunction with "Deutscher", editors and readers will want to see and say it, even if they know German. There are likely other titles with similar considerations, and I'm sure the problem has been discussed before. An alternative would be to use "the German Music Council" instead of "the Deutscher Musikrat". And that evokes the question as to whether the article should have the English title. Jmar67 (talk) 02:04, 11 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The dozens of pages including Deutscher Musikrat before I blued them were all (and still are) given as Deutscher Musikrat and not the Deutscher Musikrat. This is just an indication. Opéra Garnier in German becomes Palais Garnier in English and again Opéra Gernier in French but not the Palace Garnier. As for translating the name into English it has already been discussed with Gerda Arendt on my TP.


 * The title is in German but throughout the English article, it is "German Music Council" that is used. It may sound more "natural" to native English readers to have an English sounding name but would be a slight bia vis-à-vis the original. Eventually the title may be modified as "German Music Council" (but not the "German Music Council") as far as I understand things. LouisAlain (talk) 07:24, 11 May 2019 (UTC)


 * You could say "Der deutsche Musikrat" or "Deutscher Musikrat" but "Der deutscher Musikrat" would be wrong grammar (the declination of deutsch implies the article), and so I feel "the Deutscher Musikrat" would also be wrong. I'll check the article for use of the name, and think going by abbriviation might be a good idea. I call you LouisAlain and not Ludwig whatever, - a name is a name, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:31, 11 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I hope I fixed the names, using "it", "the council", and "DMR". Can we find refs from outside. The Berlin - Bonn thing is not yet really clear. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:26, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * What triggered this discussion was my edit here. Palais Garnier uses the article, or did I misunderstand what you were saying? At any rate, referring to "Deutscher Musikrat" in prose without the article is wrong because the reader expects it and cannot appreciate why it is omitted. Many articles are unfortunately in that category after the recent changes, and some before that. However, avoiding the issue by using DMR or the English name is certainly better. Jmar67 (talk) 12:35, 11 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I tried to do as much of the latter as I could. "The Deutscher Musikrat", however, is nothing I'd write, as I would not write "The LouisAlain". It's name ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:55, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I am beginning to see your objection. You are regarding DMR as the name of the organization and I see it as the organization. Jmar67 (talk) 15:43, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I tried something else now. "The Deutscher Musikrat" would really be as if you said "the The Beatles". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:13, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not to a native English speaker. I have no problem with it. Jmar67 (talk) 13:37, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not sure if you mean you'd have no problem with "the The Beatles"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:28, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with "the Deutscher Musikrat" as such, although I do prefer to avoid it where possible, knowing that it's a grammatical irritation to someone who recognizes the conflict. The German DMR article uses the grammatical article, and English wants to do the same. But regarding the Beatles analogy, I would not use "the" if the German term began with an article, if that's what you mean. Jmar67 (talk) 15:11, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This reminds me of my preference for "the" with ship names. Many others omit it. Jmar67 (talk) 15:31, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I also think that the definite article is warranted here (native German speaker). To me this rests on the name of the organization being what you might call an identifier within a larger set - a type of council, specifically a music-related one, specifically the German version of this. It's a descriptive name, rather than a proper name (although, being unique, it naturally functions as the latter in practice). We do, e.g., refer to "the Duma" or "the Royal Society", which occupy similar positions (name is descriptive of a function albeit used as a proper name). I've moonlighted as a language editor for scientific journals for the last decade, and I would not hesitate to insert the definite article in this case if I saw it in a mansucript. - YMMV, obviously. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 16:33, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * At present, this is theory because the article (page) doesn't use the name without adding something such as "organization" which cantake the article (grammar) without stomach ache ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:46, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Eh? That sounds a lil' bit like sophistry... there's no definite article in the titles of Duma, Royal Society, or (to pull up a few more of the same kidney) Goethe-Institut or Alliance Française either - all of which consistently use "the [X] " throughout the article. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 22:57, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, all your examples have no article, while "Deutscher Musikrat" has an implied article (no idea if there's a grammar term, and it doesn't exist in English). Blauer Reiter is another example, short for Der Blaue Reiter. Would you say "the Der Blaue Reiter"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:13, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Nah, that's a horse of a different colour (heh :). "Der Blaue Reiter" is a unit - the article is part of the name, because it is a proper name. It's not a type of rider that happens to be blue; it's a group that picked a name that expressly includes the article. I refer you to the deWiki articles: de:Der Blaue Reiter, but de:Deutscher Musikrat. - But why do you reckon that the Deutsche Musikrat should see different usage than, e.g., the Goethe-Institut with its implied article? Both invariably take an article in German, because German does that; in neither case is this part of the name itself; and going by general usage in English and on WP, they should both take the definite article here.
 * I grant you it's not observed absolutely stringently on WP, but the preponderance goes that way. Sticking with the music organizations, for those subjects that have articles in both Wikipedias, we have implied article in German and definite article in English for: de:Reichsmusikkammer / Reichsmusikkammer; de:Bach-Gesellschaft Leipzig / Bach Gesellschaft; de:Bund Deutscher Orgelbaumeister / Bund Deutscher Orgelbaumeister (what there is); de:Allgemeiner deutscher Musikverein / Allgemeiner Deutscher Musikverein. The sole exception, for no apparent reason is de:Bundesverband Musikindustrie / Bundesverband Musikindustrie, which got the acronym-without-article treatment. But I'd argue that makes a pretty good case for usage around here. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 23:58, 11 May 2019 (UTC)