Talk:Dharma Initiative/Archive 1

Speculative Materials
Quite a bit of the article is speculation. The theories are more appropriate to fan pages than an entry here. Please snip down to the actual story as presented thus far. LeFlyman 19:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I've also removed the link to the Dharma Industries website. A simple WHOIS lookup will show that it is registered to a person in Sweden 5 days ago. ABC registered for their other sites related to this (such as The Hanso Foundation) in July. As for this page itself... I don't even think it belongs on Wikipedia yet (if ever). Baryonyx 02:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I am wondering what that means--if something ever belongs on Wikipedia? I would like to remove the article Mickey Mouse universe but alas I guess someone out there holds it dear. Is Wikipedia going to run out of memory? I believe that if a term or concept is correctly defined then it improves Wikipedia. Bakrantz
 * IMHO, the site noted above doesn't deserve a link because it has no useful content. Nor does, which offers nothing aside from a copy of the orientation video; presumably it is not an official site, as it is registered by proxy through an Arizona company. - Hedgey42 15:31, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * In reply to Bakrantz (backing up Baryonyx and Hedgey42): as it's extremely easy these days to buy a domain name and quickly put up a Web page that looks "official", editors need to double-check the validity of sites linked to articles as references. With TV shows like LOST, there's sure to be a lot of fan-created content and sites which, while entertaining, aren't encyclopedic. At some point, if a fan site gains its own level of "Notability", then it can be included -- but inclusion of an unofficial site which just aims to confuse people as to its legitimacy would be a disservice to Wikipedia. See also, Wikipedia guidelines/proposals on Importance and Trivia. — LeFlyman 17:12, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The latest edit is much improved, thanks to new editor Hedgey42. LeFlyman 16:18, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * And almost immediately, someone else has added in some new cruft. LeFlyman 04:45, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Excised yet another new speculative section, which also repeats what is already in the article. LeFlyman 05:52, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Firstly, not convinced the link to Taoism should be there, seems total speculation, least somebody decided to remove the 'looks like taoism logo' rubish from there - the logo (if you want total speculation) looks more like the Bhudist 8 Spoked wheel of life if anything. On another note even this discussin is getting filled with speculation - any thoughts on removing the cruft from here also? Also, again, I can't see any reason for the 'Trivia' section - seems totally pointless - it should be expressed and propper sentances in the main body, not tidbits of information like that. streaky 15:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Naming conventions
For whomever is confused, the underground structure is not called "The Hatch" -- a hatch is a door, which was what Locke and Boone initially discovered. The facility should properly called a bunker or station (as per the orientation film). LeFlyman 21:43, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Some characters refer to the compound, or research station #3, as "the hatch," which is a colloquialism. What is in "the hatch"? Don't know the episodes. "Station" is a better term. Bakrantz


 * Correcting myself-- yes, it appears that characters on the Island do refer to the station as "the hatch" (as Hurley and Rose did this past episode) even though that doesn't necessarily make sense. I think this may be an example of fan naming creeping into the writers' usage. —LeFlyman 19:53, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Swan=Island Shape?
Check out that land mass. - 24.124.89.31 02:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
 * You may be on to something. --  user:zanimum

Swan=Zeus?
The Swan could be a reference to Zeus. In the poem Leda and the Swan Zeus morphs into a swan to father Castor, Polydeukes, Clytemnestra, and Helen (of Troy).

Fake "Dharma" Logos
Someone added in a new logo which I've removed, from a supposedly "official" site, Megalottojackpot.com. This is not an ABC Television site (contrary to the link at the bottom), but a fan site/hoax, registered to the same person who runs MillionairePlayboy.com The origin of the "cat bird on a stick" Dharma logo is in the forums there. Sorry to be a party pooper. LeFlyman 17:43, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry, that would have been me. I really thought it was an official site... :-( Tomcage9 20:56, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * No worries; the creator of that site clearly intended that it look "official"-- as made obvious by placing a link to ABC's Terms of Service at the bottom. I just wanted to make sure that someone else didn't come along and add it back in later :) LeFlyman 03:32, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Coincidentally, just so you don't feel too bad, check out the CNet story on "Lost"-related web sites which originally claimed the MegaLotto site was "official", and a certain correction to it. LeFlyman 10:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

540 = 108 * 5

 * Whoever added this has struck another intersting point. 108 mintute rollover; 540 day stays. Facinating. -Litefantastic 20:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The DeGroots
The DeGroots look like the fat bearded guy and the blonde woman who threw the Molotov on the boat. It could be just me or is there some sort of connection? One more thing, the profile for Libby says her name is Libby DeGroot. Any connections there? Someone help me out. --Ultrasound 09:28, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

This is pure fan speculation at this time, and there's nothing that mentions Libby's last name anywhere. —LeFlyman 19:55, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Someone put her last name as DeGroot in her wiki. Misunderstanding. Sorry. --Ultrasound 21:27, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

DeGroot of DeProblem
I admit that the question immeadiately above is just speculation, but it's somewhat verifiable. Why not dredge up some screenshots of the boat, and we'll have a look-see. -Litefantastic 01:39, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Has anyone noticed that Libby seems to bear a striking resemblance to the blond woman who threw that molotov onto the raft? We haven't seen a flashback for Libby, and if you go to the Hanso foundation website and click on Alvar Hanso's pic, the hatch computer screen pops up with someone talking to "mole". Could they be saying that a mole is in the group, and that maybe it is Libby, since we know nothing about her and she is very mysterious? [user:Denzel Washington] 04:34, 28 January 2006

Speculative Info on Dharma Logo Caption
Someone has listed the arrow station as "presumably being the zoology station". There is nothing to back this up that has aired on the show OR been revealed elsewhere by an official source, so I am deleting this statement from the caption.
 * Yes, that would be this, probably. -Litefantastic 00:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The source "video" is a fake. The hoax material was released on October 21 by someone posting as "Samuel DeGroot" on a fan forum. The second half of the video is taken from a promo video for the Sanoviv Medical Institute -- you can even hear the audio in the background. A couple of weeks ago, the same poster admitted to the hoax. So the lesson is: stick with what has actually been shown on the TV series, not what an anonymous person posted on some Internet forum. —LeFlyman 01:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it was real; I'm just saying that's where the reference probably came from. -Litefantastic 22:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The LOST podcast with Damon Lindeloff hinted that the Arrow station is likely to be one of many storage bunkers on the island -G.AC 25 00:52, february 2005

Dharma logos
An interesting thing is this. Admittedly, it's just a forum post, the only method of information in the world with a lower fact content to nonsense ratio than talking to the guy next to you in a bar, but still. All I'll say is they look a heck of a lot more convincing than that 'catbird' logo that's bouncing around. -Litefantastic 23:39, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It would seem this was false in consideration of the station found in "Maternity Leave" Coffeeboy 17:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup. -Litefantastic 00:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Anybody have any idea if what appears to be (to me) I-Ching symbols around the logos mean anything?
 * They appear in the bagua. -Litefantastic 00:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

strong but localized magnetic field.
How "localized"? In a mid-series 1 episode, do Locke/Sayid not remark on the inaccuracy of their compasses?

Removed from article
This section was removed; while interesting information, it has nothing to do with "The Dharma Initiative": "Swans are revered in many religions and cultures, especially Hinduism. The Sanskrit word for swan is hamsa or hansa, and it is the vehicle of many deities like the goddess Saraswati. It is mentioned several times in the Vedic literature, and some swans have also been said to have the knowledge of the Supreme Being Brahman. They are said to reside in the summers in the Manasarovar lake and migrate to Indian lakes for the winter, eat pearls, and separate milk from water in a mixture of both. Hindu iconography typically shows the Mute Swan. It is wrongly supposed by many Historians that the word hamsa only means a goose, since today swans are no more found in India, not even in most zoos. However, ornithological checklists like this clearly classify several species of swans as vagrant birds in India." —LeFlyman 20:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Usable Equipment?
What does this sentence even mean? "The bunker's only other useable equipment appears to be a large firearms arsenal left behind by Desmond and his predecessors."

How about... the books? The shower? The beds? The sheets? The RECORD PLAYER? The records? The blender? The... man, you get my point. It's an absurd comment.

Reorganization
I was troubled by the redundancy and confusing organization in this article so I decided to have a go at restructuring it. The basic revisions are:


 * Grouping information into [Dharma Initiative] History and Purpose, Station Three, Other Stations, and Trivia.


 * Eliminating the use of sub-subheads, e.g. “The Film,” and “Missing Pieces.” Feel free to reinstate these if they would help in the “Station Three” section.


 * Eliminating “The Film’s Assumptions.” The jobs and the code might have been explicitly stated in the original film, but lost when the film was damaged. In any case, the assumptions don’t seem necessary to mention in the article.


 * Eliminating “Dharma Initiative Employees” section. This is information adequately covered elsewhere in the article.


 * Moving number commentaries and information on Candle’s false arm to Trivia.


 * Adding information on “Quaratnine” messages and quasi-speculation on the Rousseau bunker (please remove if it is inappropriate.)

I tweaked the grammar here and there, but kept the same basic content.

I leave it to the earlier architects of this article to revert to an earlier draft if they feel the revision is presumptuous or insufficient.

T McAy, 2:48 24 December 2005


 * I appreciate the effort at reorganization. Some of the additions are problematic, however. The changes introduce quite a bit of Original Research. A good rule of thumb is if "speculation" is associated with whatever is to be included, it probably shouldn't be here. —LeFlyman 08:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Original Research "Theories"
I again need to repeat the mantra that Wikipedia is not the place to try out your personal theories. The following section of pure, Original Research (does anyone even read this policy?), apart from its grammatical and spelling challenges, is completely inappropriate to Wikipedia. Save it for fan site forums and do not re-insert it here.—LeFlyman 08:19, 8 January 2006 (UTC) Theories involving the Dharma initiative ''The supposed Dharma logo is highlighted within a square on the fusealodge. Many believe it to be a sign the dharma is to blame while others believe it to be a simple airplane design''

Rumour has it that The Hanso Foundation and the Dharma Initiative are responsible for the events occuring on the island and the main reason for the survivors being stranded in the first place. The logo is a major clue to why this theory could be accurate. We first see the Dharma logo are in the "orientation" film shown in the third episode of season 2. The logo is shown all over the hatch and in the station that the survivors of the tail section of Oceanic Flight 815 sought refuge in. Early on in season one in the episode "White Rabbit" Walt is seen walking along the wing of the plane and in the background a faded yet clearly visible Dharma logo is inprinted on the fusealodge; this suggest maybe dharma is the reason the plane crashed in the first place but others state that airplanes have octaganol shapes inside them as part of their design. The logo is also on the tail part of the shark that allegedly stalked sawyer and Michael when floating on the debris of the raft; during an underwater close up of the shark the logo can clearly be seen. Dharma is also believed to be responsible for the abduction of Walt and the possible explanation of the "others" as the developers of the initiative Gerald and Karen Degroot who feature in the "orientation" film in episode 3 of season 2 look very similar to two of the alleged "Others" on the boat who abducted Walt. The man who speaks to Michael, Walt, Jin and Sawyer who makes the famous claim "give us the boy" looks alot like Gerald Degroot from the orientation film plus 35 years. The woman driving the boat looks alot like Karen Degroot once again plus 35 years. They may be the "Others" themselves or the others may be some kind of failed science experiment who have gotten "sick" which has been mentioned many times. The polar bears are also linked to Dharma as they also feature in the "orientation" film when they mention a possible zoolgy research facility on the island; leading to the possibility they may have in fact escaped. —LeFlyman 08:19, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the word true (i.e. true research organisation) because that implies it exists in real life. I'm assuming that is not the case. Since this is Lost we should also state that everything we know may be wrong. DJ Clayworth 20:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Missing splice
Noticed this hasn't been updated to include a reference to the missing splice found by Eko in the bible, and put back into the film by Locke. Someone has done a great job with the transcript, and would be good to have this included there too. I would have a go at updating myself, but I wouldn't do it justice. --139.149.1.211 10:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Oh well, someone has removed the entire transcript section, which I feel is a pity. --139.149.1.194 16:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the transcript because it is a copyright violation. Jtrost (T | C | #) 18:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

How can a transcript be a copyright violation? The rest of the article features still images from the show. By that rationale, any sort of quote would constitute a copyright infringement.

π As long as the source is creditted, which it is, it's not a copyright violation. It's not the entire episode and in the interest of the owners of the material, it is self-evident that any discussion/explanation of said property is beneficial to the owners and to the property itself. Please try to ask others before making uneducated decisions. It's this type of undemocratic action that detracts from the value of these articles as a whole.

Translated Timer
That picture is not an adequate translation. It does not explain how to come from the glyphs, which presumably are phonetic for Egyptian words, to English, nor does it explain what exactly "caus. die" is supposed to mean.


 * Here are some links to explanations of the translation:
 * I.e. it can pretty solidly be translated (taking into account the causative form) as to make (someone) die; Pronunciation would be something like SWDA (SeWeDA ?)
 * --Samwz 17:03, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Other bunkers?

 * "Other dharma bunkers of unknown use bear the symbols of a seashell and the ankh."

Has this been seen on-screen? If not, this reference must go... Radagast 15:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

New Web / Video Link

 * should we add http://thedharmainitiative.org/ as the new link of Official Dharma Initiative Website?And should we updated the url of the Orientation Film of The Swan to http://thedharmainitiative.org/orientation ? And, help would be welcomed concerning the LOGIN feature of this Dharma site. Darth Kevinmhk 11:14, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

This site is NOT official. Official tie-in sites are registered through whois by Disney/ABC; this site appears to be run by an ISP in Australia. Radagast 18:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Occurences of the Dharma Logo
I think we should just have a listing of occurences of the Dharma Logo all in one place or not at all. It doesn't belong in the Trivia section because they are story elements. Anyone thinking along the same lines? MrMorgan 15:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Acronrym capitalization
Since DHARMA is now confirmed to be an acronym, it should be written in capitals (according to the article on acronyms). This hopefully will also keep reader's minds from spinning in the wrong direction, since the acronym means that DHARMA has a distinct meaning which is not that of Dharma. Arru 09:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

translations of "dharma"
I know this has been confirmed to be an acronym, but I think something has been ignored here. In my studies of Eastern religions, "dharma" is most frequently translated as "duty." specifically in Hinduism, Dharma is the concept of caste duty, or the role that one is supposed to fufill during his life in hopes of improving his standing in the world for the next life, through the cycle of death and rebirth called Samsara. The ultimate goal is to be released from this cycle, and Hindu philosophy states that the best way to be released is to practice one's duty.

Taken in this sense, it seems interesting that the contact we have with the DHARMA initiative is with individuals who are charged with the duty of pushing a button, in order to be released from the endless countdown cycle they are stuck in.

Just a thought that hasn't been brought up... this translation should be noted somewhere. I like acronyms because they are puzzles, and I'll be back shortly with some ideas about what the acronym stands for...

Tuna (68.82.230.65)


 * I agree, would you please edit this dharma translation in. It is apparently an acronym, but it is also quite obviously chosen (as acronyms often are) to also relate to the word dharma. Arru 19:25, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Material from Ultraviolet map
There are multiple Latin phrases on the wall. Some include;
 * Sursum Corda - meaning Lift up your hearts; written three times above The Staff hatch.
 * Cogito ergo doleo - meaning I think therefore I suffer; written under The Flame hatch.
 * Liberte te ex infernus - meaning Free you from the fire or also Save yourself from hell; written above CV III.
 * Malum consilium quod mutari non potest - meaning It's a bad plan that can't be changed.
 * Aegrescit medendo - meaning The disease worsens with the treatment.
 * Credo nos influctu eodem esse - meaning I think we are on the same wavelength.

Additonal untranslated latin phrases on the map:
 * Nil actum reputa si quid superest agendum
 * Aeg exit montendo (?)
 * Hic sunt dracones
 * Ut sit magna, tamen certe lenta ira decorum est
 * Liberte te ex inferus

--Isotope23 21:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Nil actum reputa si quid superest agendum = Don’t consider that anything has been done if anything is left to be done
 * Aeg exit montendo (?) = Aeg = sick/ill exit = just what you think it means (while exitus anyway... exitium means destruction I think)... I've never seen montendo before.
 * Hic sunt dracones = Here be Dragons, appeared on ancient maps of the world.
 * I think you mean "Ut sit magna, tamen certe lenta ira deorum est = The wrath of the gods may be great, but it certainly is slow.
 * Liberte te ex inferus roughly translated would be free youself from below or save yourself from hell (disclaimer, I last had Latin about 15 years ago). Maybe a reference to the "Monster"?

External Links
 * Higher resolution image of the map
 * High quality map from Entertainment Weekly
 * A more complete map from EW

Arru 19:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I merged the Ultraviolet map content here as that article is on AfD (and consensus appears headed for delete or merge) The content is interesting enough to retain IMO and this is the best place for it.--Isotope23 21:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

This information is being marked for deletion because it is not encyclopedic and violates many Wikipedia policies. I have reverted your edits because they contained fancruft, original research, and speculation. Jtrost (T | C | #) 21:11, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't you think the map merits some mention here though? Coffeeboy 21:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It is mentioned: In "Lockdown," the blast doors drop after the loudspeaker counts down to zero. A blacklight turns on and a drawing is revealed in fluorescent paint on the door that has pinned Locke to the ground. Jtrost (T | C | #) 21:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, the biggest problem is that it is another pointless fork of info for Lost that would be better centrally collected, but whatever... I'll just vote merge on the AfD.--Isotope23 21:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The point of this article seems to be to collect various bits of information about the Dharma initiaitive and the hatches connected to it into one place. I think that verifiable details of the map would be relevent. Blade 23:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Would anyone mind if I pasted the Latin phrases and their translations into the subsection on the map? They seem relevent. -Litefantastic 16:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * As Isotope23 said, the problem is that there is an entire page on the map, the existence of which (the page) is a great debate. Putting relevant info here would be a step in centralizing coverage on the map. Staying at its own page it will remain still more speculative than if put before sceptic eyes here. Arru 22:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

3 of 6
The article infers that the '3 of 6' subtitle on the film means that this film is one of six films. One of the notes on the back of the blast door says: "The Swan: 3 of 6 (4,8,15,16,23,42)". Apparently then, the Swan 'hatch' is number 3 of 6. In light of this, the significance of the '3 of 6' subtitle should be reconsidered.