Talk:Diana Vickers/Archive 2

Jumping Into Rivers
Jumping Into Rivers does not pass WP:NSONG and so should be redirected here until it gains notability. --Triwbe (talk) 13:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing
This seems to rely mostly on one source Popjustice. Will leave it to British editors as far as adding citation warnings Edkollin (talk) 15:54, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Once needs a page of its own. The article is a mess. The section debut album talks mostly about once and it is big enough for a topic. The article is confusing and needs tidying up! —Preceding unsigned comment added by OliverL906 (talk • contribs) 17:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Singer-songwriter, actress and model
This needs a reliable, secondary published source if the above statement is to remain in the article. Adducing a photoshoot on MODELS1.CO.UK is not an acceptable method of sourcing. Nor does the POPJUSTICE.COM piece say anything about her being a songwriter. Wikispan (talk) 18:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * http://www.ivillage.co.uk/newspol/celeb/cint/articles/0,,528729_718071,00.html - songwriter is supported here. "I've had time to grow, write my own music"
 * http://www.popjustice.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4355&Itemid=206 - The Popjustice article does state that Diana has co-wrote songs on her album if you had bothered to read it more carefully. Remake Me And You'
 * A punchy track which Diana wrote with Ellie Goulding.'''
 * Me And You'
 * A pleasant plinky-plonky-swooshy album track penned by Diana with Lightspeed Champion.'''


 * http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23734809-x-factor-star-diana-vickers-wins-west-end-role.do - '''Former X Factor contestant Diana Vickers is to star in a new West End production of the musical The Rise And Fall Of Little Voice, it was announced today.
 * '''The show tells the story of a shy girl called Little Voice, played by Vickers, growing up in the north of England with her overbearing mother.
 * Little Voice listens to her dead father's records and perfects flawless impersonations of great singers, including Shirley Bassey, Edith Piaf and Judy Garland.'''
 * Leading role in Little Voice proves she is an actress? She acted in the West End. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.194.221 (talk) 13:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Please take the necessary time to read the relevant guideline. We need sources that describe her as an 'Actress', a 'Singer-songwriter', and so on. Wikispan (talk) 19:35, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

MOONO.COM and ZIMBIO.COM are not reliable sources. Moono mirrors, in part, Wikipedia. The Zimbio page is a mirror of LYRIC-VIDEO-MUSIC.BLOGSPOT.COM. Please find reliable sources that satisfy WikiProject Music. Wikispan (talk) 16:05, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I will state again that mirrors or sites that use Web crawlers to collect information on somebody (including open Wikis) are not reliable sources. Wikispan (talk) 15:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand why a reliable secondary source is required when Diana clearly is a songwriter. If she has co-wrote songs on her album, what does that make her? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.194.221 (talk) 20:43, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The description songwriter is usually reserved for people who exclusively write and perform their own material (e.g. Mariah Carey). One swallow doesn't make a summer. Hey, they all have to start somewhere. Perhaps Diana Vickers will in future. Wikispan (talk) 10:15, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Album page being deleted?
Why does Diana's album page keep getting deleted? Other artists have a page for their album. Diana's album is going to be released soon. The tracklisting, song lengths etc are all avaialble. Its like wikipedia has it in for diana, or whoever removing it does. Please explain why it is being removed. The previous page had sources etc! --80.195.56.45 (talk) 06:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 * See WP:NALBUM (especially "unreleased albums are in general not notable") and WP:Articles_for_deletion/Songs_From_The_Tainted_Cherry_Tree which affirmed this. I am quite sure the article will be restrored after release following WP:DRV; in the meantime the article is incubated and can be developed in readiness; it is at Article_Incubator/Songs_From_The_Tainted_Cherry_Tree. I42 (talk) 10:06, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Middle name
She doesnt have a middle name she said on a webchat he rmum was going to call them louise but decided not to give her a middle name!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by OliverL906 (talk • contribs) 16:02, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Once is notable, where's the article?
Once needs an article of its own. it really messes up the page! — Preceding unsigned comment added by OliverL906 (talk • contribs) 16:15, 20 February 2010‎

Why hasn't Once got a separate page yet? It is released in 4 weeks time, the cover has been released, it is C-listed on Radio 1, the music video is available. Surely it is notable for its own article now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 15:38, 13 March 2010‎ (talk • contribs) 90.201.194.221

Once is now A-Listed on MTV and Radio 1. It clearly needs its own page. It is also less than a week away from release --82.46.212.79 (talk) 23:49, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Being A-listed on a radio or TV station doesn't mean it clearly needs its own page. When it charts, then the article can be created. Is it being released in Ireland? If so, it may to chart there first. See WP:NSONG. anemoneprojectors   talk  00:13, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

- Once has now been released in Ireland. --82.46.212.79 (talk) 18:18, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

It has been released in Ireland, since the 16th of April and has charted in the Irish iTunes. It has peaked at 5 so far. I know it makes no difference but its peaked at 4 now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.47.20.15 (talk) 19:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The iTunes chart is a WP:BADCHART. However, when it appears in the national Irish chart I will certainly then agree that it has met WP:NSONG. I42 (talk) 19:42, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Once is number 1 in the UK Itunes chart now and Number 2 in the Hit 40 UK charts --82.46.212.79 (talk) 18:10, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The Hit 40 UK chart is also a WP:BADCHART. I42 (talk) 18:17, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Actress
A single appearance in a musical is not enough to establish Diana, or anyone else for that matter, as a thespian. Please provide a reliable secondary published source that describes Diana Vickers as an "actress". Wikispan (talk) 16:07, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The Evening Standard and Daily Mail both discuss her acting. These establish that she is an actress. I42 (talk) 17:49, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * These sources demonstrate that Diana was offered a single role, they do not categorically establish that she has any principal experiencing or training as a thespian. Please understand that many different public figures are unexpectedly offered theatrical roles for which they have no prior training. Diana may have previous experience that I am not aware about. All I am asking for is a source that makes her profession explicitly clear. Wikispan (talk) 18:21, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Acting is not something that requires professional qualifications - you don't even have to be a member of Equity any more - so her background and what training she had is entirely immaterial. What is established is that she has acted on a West End stage, and that makes it quite reasonable and proper to write in the article lead that she is persuing a career as an actress as well as a singer. I42 (talk) 19:15, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Chart position
I tried to add Diana's position in the Big Top 40 chart but it got removed even though it's a valid chart, it's on 145 radio stations covering the whole of the UK and had more listeners than the official chart. There's details on how the chart works on their website http://www.bigtop40.com/help/download-chart/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.20.49.81 (talk) 17:11, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a valid chart - it is listed at WP:BADCHARTS: "This is a list of charts which should not be included in Wikipedia articles ... The Big Top 40 Show". The reason why is explained at that link. However, I believe that its appearance on that chart is a good indication we should expect to see it on the official chart next week. I42 (talk) 18:00, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I know it's on the "list" but your points above is what makes The Big Top 40 a valid chart, it is an excellent indication (always) of what will be No. 1 the following week - because of this it has a following of 2.5 million listeners and a strong following online. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.20.49.81 (talk) 13:35, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you wish to challenge WP:BADCHART this isn't the place to do it. But note that in the fullness of time the article will contain full official chart info. Using the Big Top 40 chart simply so that there is something there right now misses the point of an encyclopedia. See, in particular, WP:NOTNEWS. I42 (talk) 14:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I was looking to include both peek chart positions on all songs which enter the Big Top 40 chart, I will move my discussion to the suggested page - thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.20.49.81 (talk) 17:42, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Songs from the Tainted Cherry Tree
I was just wondering when this page will be restored? All 13 Tracks have been put up on Diana's Myspace and its release is a week away. In addition, one of the tracks, Once (Diana Vickers song), is number one in the UK charts so is it time for the page to be restored? --Sumeet 92 (talk) 20:38, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Acting career
Added reviews, adjusted tone of sentence about the song, deleted one title-only cite, conform cites. Removed the list of people she beat for the award - the article is just about her. Commented out "Glee" possible future event WP:CRYSTAL for now - it can go back in later, when signed filmed or broadcast. I'd really like to put authors in the citations, but the vast majority lack them. Any objections? --Lexein (talk) 17:34, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Theatregoers' Choice Award
In re: "first reference does state who Diana beat in the awards with % breakdowns." In WP, Oscars and Tony awards are not lorded over those who didn't win. Same applies here; lots of people don't win awards, we simply don't list them in the winner's article. Vickers is not in X Factor anymore - no point dragging other X Factor contestants into this section, especially since they weren't in her stage show. We aren't quoting the source, so don't need to include the others. And we don't cite everything that is contained in a source, just that which is relevant to the article's subject. Finally, "triumph over" is WP:PUFFERY, unless she used those words, in which case they would be quoted. --Lexein (talk) 23:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Diana_Vickers
According to the cited source, "The Boy Who Murdered Love" peak position is 57, but article states 35. Are we cherrypicking among sources? Cite them. Discuss. --Lexein —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lexein (talk • contribs) 14:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Always cite the source next to any data which doesn't agree with the source in the column header. Otherwise it will be summarily reverted. Always. --Lexein (talk) 17:30, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Per the comment you (Lexin) added re peak positions to the main article, the accepted reference for peak positions is at acharts.us; for Diana Vickers see . I42 (talk) 17:41, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That's not what's listed in the header of the Singles table. 1. Seems like consensus was to have a main source for a table. Am I reading that right? 2. Acharts.us says "57" as well, as the peak, so what's the plan? --Lexein (talk) 17:51, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I would always use Chart Stats rather than acharts for the history. You get the complete chart history: . The single is currently at #36, which for now is the peak position, so neither 57 nor 35 is correct.--Michig (talk) 17:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * accepted says "Chart Stats is anonymous and has been challenged in the past" but it is the stated source for the column. But since acharts and chartstats agree here, do we revert or keep cited data which disagrees? --Lexein (talk) 18:06, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right; the standard templates use chartstats, not achart.us. I think what you have now is fine; chartstats has not yet updated with the currect chart, but the BBC ref is provided. When the single falls then the BBC ref can be removed. I42 (talk) 19:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Why does the new Zealand Chart position keep being deleted off the page?
Once peaked at 45 in NZ so why isn't it up?? Keeps being removed! Its on the Once page but not here! —Preceding unsigned comment added by OliverL906 (talk • contribs) 15:07, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The person who keeps adding Korea is removing it, their reason seemingly being because your edit breaks the table. Anemone  Projectors  15:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Well do it for me then! —Preceding unsigned comment added by OliverL906 (talk • contribs) 16:14, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I was about to but when I checked the source, it doesn't actually say that the song has charted  Anemone  Projectors  16:55, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

It did chart, i saw it chart and so did some Diana Vickers Forum members, you just can't get a Reference because NZ Only post the Top 40, and it took ages to find a Top 50. OliverL906 (talk) 15:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It needs a reliable source to confirm it, not just the Wikipedia article for the song that says it charted. Anemone  Projectors  16:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Not charted in Korea
The album has not charted in Korea as of yet. It is Number 1 on the Sony Music Page for Korea, but not in the Korean official Chart. It is expected to chart later on today. So stop saying it is Number 1! me think some Diana fans want ehr to do well, they resort to getting a little info and twisting it!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by OliverL906 (talk • contribs) 15:02, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Once, The Boy Who... and Album peaked at 39, 16 and 16. Updated Table OliverL906 (talk) 18:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Vickers' tour schedule
I see a good faith table of Vickers' tour dates, supported by citations, added by 90.220.170.79 here, reverted by AnemoneProjectors here as "not necessary". Added back (sans November per WP:CRYSTAL) here and reverted here. The reasons given, "not necessary" and "table does not belong here", are not policy-based or guideline-based reasons for deletion of citation-supported material. Watch out for WP:OWN and WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. I support the table, not including November, perhaps at the end of the article, so as to keep the article flow.

Discuss. --Lexein (talk) 04:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * When I said it doesn't belong here, I meant it's the kind of thing that belongs in an article about a tour, but these tours are probably not notable enough for their own articles. Are there any other singer articles with a complete list of tour dates? I do feel the table is slightly confusing as well, because it looks like it's describing The X Factor Live. If you want to add back the table, the colours aren't necessary. And Devon, Gloucestershire and Kent are counties, not cities. Anemone  Projectors  11:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, that makes sense. I can see the notability-as-article point, now that it's spelled out, finally (heh). I invited the original editor to join this discussion. I now support the tour info itself, but only mildly support the table. My suggestion is that the tour(s) could perhaps better be described in a paragraph, emphasizing any notable appearances w/reviews in RS. My best comparison is the Timeline of U2 which lists notable appearances, offshoot from the main U2 article which summarizes album work, tours, and reviews concisely. (No comparison of band vs singer intended, only article structure.) --Lexein (talk) 12:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes a paragraph is a good idea, I would support that. Anemone  Projectors  13:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Australian peak for Once
Not in citation given. And please stop removing the template.  ×º°”˜ `”°º× ηυηzια  ×º°”˜ `”°º×  11:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Discography needs own page?
The Discography is getting rather large, would anyone support moving it to its own page?? OliverL906 (talk) 07:58, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * She released only two solo singles and one album, it can stay where it is at the moment.  ×º°”˜ `”°º× ηυηzια  ×º°”˜ `”°º×  19:34, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Promotional singles?
In what way are those listed 'promotional singles'? Tracks made available for free download are not promotional singles and neither is a song that was simply performed live. A promotional single is a single released only for promotional purposes to radio stations, etc.--Michig (talk) 22:01, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Korea
Please can someone add the chart positions for Once, TBWML and the album in Korea. The reference is here: http://www.gaonchart.co.kr/main/section/search/list.gaon?Search_str=diana+vickers

Plus, please start a "other charted songs table" as Sunlight and Notice charted in Korea, again, in that reference. 78.149.71.28 (talk) 11:56, 1 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I hate to sound snobish, but I don't believe the charting of songs in Korea should be added. Even if this is the 'official' chart (which can be disputed), it is hardly a major chart which WP:SONGS says chart figures should be given for only. Pafcool2 (talk) 18:56, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, it's not a major chart. I've never seen it used in other discographies. It's fine on individial single and album articles though. – Anemone Projectors – 21:00, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Gah. Sorry. I added it back before seeing this thread, for 3 reasons. 1. Head off edit war with IP editor who apparently copy/paste reverted an enormous number of reference expansions to pick this one nit. I think discussion with that IP editor may peacefully resolve this better than reverts. 2. Doublechecked the Scottish stats & put them back, I think, correctly, too. 3. The fact that it charted in a non-English-as-primary-language country is notable, and suitably internationalizes the article.  Perhaps charting in a larger Asian country would be more appropriate? What is the major chart source in Korea?  Personally, I feel 75% sure that the Korean chart is notable enough & harmless, but if there's a policy/guideline/essay on this for artist articles vs single/album articles, point me at it!  --Lexein (talk) 23:59, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Template deleted, what to do?
The template appears to have been deleted. Its parameters list many reviews, and some apparent duplicates, as well as citing reviews from the show's official website (not usually done!). So (taps fingers) I commented it out, rather than deleting it. Discuss? --Lexein (talk) 06:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Bump. What, no discussion? --Lexein (talk) 22:04, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Large content moves, removal of content
IMHO the chronology should remain intact. A recent IP editor moved the Acting section below Artistry, breaking the chronology. The Artistry section should perhaps be titled "Influences and artistry" - this may more clearly separate this as a non-chronology section. Thoughts? --Lexein (talk) 22:04, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Is anyone monitoring this entry?
Looks like a blatant PR puff to me.

Could it be flagged please?

Thanks.

Jackmartinleith (talk) 23:01, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Jack Martin Leith


 * WP:Welcome to Wikipedia. Yes, lots of editors monitor this article. Most of us try to thin out the PR, but we do not delete reliably sourced content. Feel free to quote or wikilink to sections which seem like PR to you, right here, for discussion.  Specificity is helpful.  (In future, widely spacing your messages isn't needed, and your ~ signature is sufficient). --Lexein (talk) 02:01, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Awards/Nominations
There was a big table of Diana's awards and then it was vandalied, and however, the vandalism has gone, but so has the table of awards/nominations! Can someone get it back please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.53.30 (talk) 18:41, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Followup: I spot checked the old table with the current article, and each notable (well-cited) award is present as prose in the appropriate section. My sense from the edit history is that tables are jarring, and are better when presented as prose or simple lists, rather than easy-to-break, hard-to-maintain tables. But prose seems better.  Discuss? --Lexein (talk) 07:05, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

NPOV violation?
The intro says "Vickers' musical career has been commercially successful thus far for a girl of her ability" I suggest that the part regarding her ability is in clear violation of NPOV, but am more then happy to wait for validation. My reasoning is that, as with any art, 'ability' is a personal preference from a reviewer at best. Even if it wasn't, the fact she has had ANY commercial success, repeated chart entries, a solo number #1, and came 4th on X-Factor, surely indicates that she has 'ability' anyway.

Suggestions? MrZoolook (talk) 00:15, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Can we take the protection off this page yet?
When is the protection on this page going to be lifted? I'm not able to add anything to this entry yet as my account is still new but I am disappointed in the lack of updates being added on it. Diana has a new single coming out on the 21st July but nobody has bothered to add anything about it on here. Her new record deal needs more explanation instead of a badly formed sentence. The editors on here need to sort this out. Either let me contribute, take away the protection or update because the entry is getting neglected at a time of important career changes for Diana. --Everycapra (talk) 00:12, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Patience. It's protected against vandalism, not against you. Remember that Wikipedia is not, per WP:NOTNEWS, a news source, so we (well, some of us) try not to blurt out breaking news based on press releases. It's an encyclopedia, so some lag for careful consideration of sources is part of the job. Also, use Edit request, if it's important - this is one of the main functions of Talk pages, to act as a conduit for requested edits. But remember that independent reliable sources are required. The page is currently littered with gossipy sources, and sources that just echo press releases. --Lexein (talk) 07:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Images of Vickers
Wasn't there a discussion some time back about several free images of Vickers, and which to use in the infobox? I see only one free image on Commons now. There were several. Anyways, let's be on the lookout for good shots of Diana on Flickr. If you see one, I'll deal with writing to the uploader to request a license change to CC-BY-SA so we can use it. --Lexein (talk) 16:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Radical changes
Move stuff. Or delete stuff. Or add stuff. Please don't do all at once. If changes are too complicated to explain in an edit summary, they're too friggin' complicated, and don't do them. Don't delete cited content without reason expressed in edit summary. Thanks. --Lexein (talk) 07:00, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'll accept that my edit summary should have been more descriptive, but that's no excuse to revert my edits wholesale. You undid my grammar/formatting corrections as well, by the way...


 * As it is, here's my rationale: at eight paragraphs, the lead section is far too long and goes into too much unnecessary detail. For example, the reader does not need to learn from the lead section the exact date that Vickers' film role was announced, or the digital and physical releases of "My Wicked Heart". I didn't delete anything that wasn't already mentioned & cited in the rest of the article, and the couple of bits & pieces that weren't mentioned I made sure to move down to relevant sections. Please take a look at WP:LEAD. Extraordinary Machine (talk) 15:44, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for discussing. I agree that edits are necessary, and that the lead is way long. My only point is procedural, for the benefit of all editors working on the article: to (please) use (in this case) two or three edits to accomplish the desired result. You're not alone: as a wikignome, I've boldly reverted such sweeping changes in the past in other articles due to missing edit summaries and removed refs (it's too difficult to suss which were lost, due to the overall complexity of the single edit). --Lexein (talk) 17:36, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Is it alright if I reinstate my changes in multiple smaller edits? Extraordinary Machine (talk) 12:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Long delayed: sure. I appreciate the discussion, sry for missing your last. --Lexein (talk) 17:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Place of birth
Why does it say the county she was born in and not the city? Surely it would be better to have the opening sentence "Diana Mae Vickers (born 30 July 1991 in BLACKBURN, England) is an English singer and actress. Instead of "Diana Mae Vickers (born 30 July 1991 in LANCASHIRE, England) is an English singer and actress" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.101.11 (talk • contribs) 23:33, 13 April 2010‎
 * Blackburn is not a city. — Smjg (talk) 08:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

First album
"She worked with Cathy Dennis, Eg White, Nerina Pallot, Ellie Goulding, Guy Sigsworth, Chris Braide, Savan Kotecha, Starsmith, Patrick Wolf, and Dev Hynes"

I've removed the non-notable names from the list, but we really don't need such a long list of people who helped her with her first album. Can we remove it altogether or reduce to a couple of "wow, really?" type names? --Dweller (talk) 15:35, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps reduce it to Goulding, Pallot and Sigsworth as they appear to have done most of the writing/producing. Karst (talk) 15:50, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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