Talk:Diethylstilbestrol

DES
DES needs to be identified as a teratogen and a cross-link made to that term.

Identified DES as teratogen and linked to Wikipedia article on term.BuckRose 22:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Deletion
Deleted the Titus-Ernstoff L article for the citation only states this: "DES exposure was unrelated to self-reported history of mental illness in women", the citation oddly omits men out of the statement, which would indicate a particular agenda.

In addition, the citation makes no mention of depression in men. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.130.115.27 (talk) 22:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Disambig
Please see Talk:DES for a discussion related to this article. Peyna 16:16, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

The cases mentioned of 3rd generation damage (cerebral palsy en 'a rare form of cancer' 'being linked to des exposure' are completely spurious; if millions of people have been exposed many rare to very rare things will happen in many offspring without any causal link. I move to strike these examples or at least include a modifier such as 'some people have seen this as linked to' and not make statements about such cases unless there is credible evidence that it is not coincidental - with a reference to the relevant scientific article evanherk

→There have been studies linking DES to transgenderism in kids born from mothers that had DES prescribed. I'm surprised nothing has been mentioned on the subject. If I can find the actual studies (I just read about them in "The Riddle of Gender" by Deborah Rudacille), I'll add to the page and link them. Of course, if anyone beats me to it, I won't cry about stealing my thunder.Jediryan22 20:23, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The studies you're looking for are:
 * "The Biology of Human Psychosexual Differentiation" by L. Gooren (Hormones and Behavior 50 (2006) 589-601), and
 * "The Endocrinology of Transsexualism : a review and commentary" by L. Gooren (Psychoneuroendocrinology 15(1), 3-14)

The relevant quotes from the former: "In male fetuses prenatal exposure to progestins and/or estrogens may have suppressed their endogenous testosterone production by the powerful negative feedback action on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (Gooren, 1990)." and "Several follow up studies of prenatal exposure to DES and/or progestin in Men have indeed found them to display a degree of nonconformity in stereotyped gender behavior, but a clear-cut effect on sexual orientation or gender identity has not been established (Gooren, 1990.)"

So Gooren mentions a link between DES and non-stereotypical gender behavior, but stops short of linking DES exposure and transsexualism.

However, a letter in the journal Nature (378, 68 - 70 (02 November 1995); doi:10.1038/378068a0) from Zhou, et al. states, "Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones."

And one of the authors of that letter published a paper entitled "Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation" in Gynecological Endocrinology (19 301–312; doi:10.1080/09513590400018231) indicating, "Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural differences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation."

Some might criticize a statement of the form "DES exposure causes male to female transsexualism," but the literature seems to support a statement like "though further studies are called for, research suggests a relation." The argument that Endocrine Disruptors (EDs) cause transsexualism is a sensitive subject for members of the transgender community, so we may even want to call attention to the debate. Meadhbh.siobhan 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Image of molecular structure
Why is there the unusual abreviation "Me" for methyl in the structure? In my opinion, deleting the word "Me" from the picture would make it less confusing. Icek 19:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * With apologizes to Shakespeare: To "Me" or not to "Me"? That is the question. ;-)  "Me" or "CH3" is a standard and widely used organic abbreviation for a methyl group.  Some organic chemists prefer brevity and would leave it out while others (like myself) prefer to include it for completeness (to remove any possible confusion that the end of the stick might represent a hydrogen atom).  For an encyclopedic entry, including "Me" in structure diagrams in my opinion is very appropriate.  Boghog2 15:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Although Me is common, I think CH3 or a simple continuation of the line would be preferable. I don't think there is any question that an unlabeled 'end of the stick' means CH3 and not H. You see this all over, including on 90% of structural images on wikipedia. A bigger issue I have is that the Me's and OH's appear oversized and with letters overlapping each other for me in both Firefox 3.0 and Internet Explorer 8.0. Is this just me and how can it be fixed? 24.240.34.174 (talk) 05:11, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The .svg image does not display properly for me either, so I have replaced it (with one without the "Me") which should address both concerns. -- Ed (Edgar181) 13:54, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

"Much more expensive"
I've just removed two instances where the replacement of DES with another drug contained the phrase "much more expensive". Not only is this not supported via reliable sources (and prices likely differed from country to country, so there's a big bias problem there - the US is not the world), it could also lead readers to assume that the only reason the drug was replaced was so that the manufacturers could make more money. This even though both replacements caused fewer side effects and were far more effective. I will assume good faith and not assume the addition was part of a WP:FRINGE anti-science scare tactics campaign, but without actual sourcing as to the specific cost of DES and tamoxifen at the time tamoxifen was introduced casual readers might assume that as well, which would not put Wikipedia in a good light. --NellieBly (talk) 16:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Your assertion may not be correct, because DES was not patented, which can make a big difference in the price.
 * Although "the US is not the world", the pharmaceutic industry is present in all the world applying similar price policies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2806:107E:4:FF2A:218:DEFF:FE2B:1215 (talk) 06:45, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

"DES Sons"
Going to be adding some additional research on DES sons. Since the initial text under the "Des Son" section focused almost exclusively on trans-gender issues, an issue that seems to be negligible in (secondary) research, I have reduced the text accordingly. For example, des exposure in males is much more associated with reduced visual/spatial cognition and depression. Witch Hazzel (talk) 16:53, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that rather than "reduce the text accordingly" you consider what other items should be added. As the principal researcher on the full range of issues affecting DES sons (for over 15 years) I believe this issue of gender variance in DES-exposed males is a huge issue, not one that needs to be reduced.

Scott Kerlin, DES Sons International Network

(SK) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docscott123 (talk • contribs) 18:58, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

That amounts to original research and violates wikipedia's editorial rules, see link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research

You're going to have to use secondary sources or a meta study Witch Hazzel (talk) 14:00, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Have amended the article's first sentence
Diethylstilbestrol is not, and by accounts has never been, spelt "diethylstilboestrol" in British English. The current BAN (British Approved Name) is diethylstilbestrol to match the rINN, and the former BAN is stilboestrol (ie, without the diethyl prefix). Source: http://www.mhra.gov.uk/Howweregulate/Medicines/Namingofmedicines/ChangestomedicinesnamesBANstorINNs/index.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.204.9 (talk) 14:31, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

The referenced site currently redirects; the archive link is https://web.archive.org/web/20131005023814/http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/es-herbal/documents/websiteresources/con009674.pdf. Search for Stilboestrol to see that the revised name is, indeed, "Diethylstilbestrol".184.244.57.244 (talk) 07:27, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

2011 NEJM review
This recent article (PMID- 21506735) is doubtless a useful reference. Just mentioning it here because I don't have access right now. --86.140.18.84 (talk) 18:51, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Deletion
Deleted the Titus-Ernstoff L article for the citation only states this: "DES exposure was unrelated to self-reported history of mental illness in women", the citation oddly omits men out of the statement, which would indicate a particular agenda.

In addition, the citation makes no mention of depression in men. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.130.115.27 (talk) 22:34, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Improper redirect or missing information
The search "stilbestrol" redirects to this article. Stilbestrol was used in chemical castration as a treatment for homosexuality in the U.K.; notably for Alan Turing. If the redirect is correct, perhaps this information could be included in the article. If it is another drug, then the redirect should be deleted or changed to estrogen, perhaps? 184.244.57.244 (talk) 07:26, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Use of DES as a "treatment" or "cure" for homosexuality before homosexuality was removed from medical texts as classified as a disorder needs a section.
It needs mentioning that DES was used as a court-ordered "treatment" to chemically castrate people. ||Allan Turing||, the inventor of the computer was court ordered to take DES in exchange for a prison sentance as punishment for homosexual activity—something that the British government later apologized for posthumously. I don't have time to insert this information with citations from the Turing page, can someone else interested please do that and add citations about its use to "cure" homosexuality way back before the medical boards declared homosexuality to not be a disease. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.175.148.221 (talk) 20:36, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

"Girls and young women"
This phrase is needlessly gendered, so I changed it to "people", which is shorter, simpler, and more accurate. My edit was reverted because it "reads weird" -- is there a better wording somebody could suggest? , thoughts? Arzg (talk) 00:17, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Just about all studies into DES have centered around the discovery of an unusual form of vaginal carcinoma which was originally discovered in young pubescent girls, and later in older women. The original NEJM paper centered around this population. So it's not okay to say 'people' as it's far too general. For one, it's female-bodied humans, particularly young women, and saying 'people' is simply too broad and inaccurate. That's primarily why I reverted - too vague A l is o n  ❤ 01:38, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * tl;dr - it's gendered in its language because the studies/effects of DES were gendered by its scope - A l is o n  ❤ 01:39, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with Alison's revert!, It is not "needlessly gendered", people include males, and males don't have uterus nor vagina. By girls it is understood a very very young women, at early 10s even virgins developing cancers in the genital area where it is more commonly caused by sexually transmitted virus Papilloma. Nor women would be correct, a 20 years old woman is a young woman too, the age difference is important too.
 * Believe it or not, there are important differences in the sex of individuals determined by the XX or XY chromosomes.
 * A physician can't examine and prescribe a patient based on the psychological sexual identity that the patient has assumed, i.e. his/her gender. The physician (medical doctor) should take into account the physiology of the patient.

Ambiguity in the veterinary section
The veterinary section ends with the phrase: "When DES was discovered to be harmful to humans, it was moved to veterinary use." It is ambiguous because it is not understood when this happened, in the earl 1960s? by the 70s? when? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2806:107E:4:FF2A:218:DEFF:FE2B:1215 (talk) 06:06, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070604145531/http://dccps.nci.nih.gov/ACSRB/pubs/DES_Pubs/directory.html to http://dccps.nci.nih.gov/ACSRB/pubs/DES_Pubs/directory.html

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Problem with structure images in wikilink popup
There is a general problem with structural formulas being uncaptioned in wikilink popups. I am adding this note here primarily as a reminder to myself to report this properly when my desktop is back up, since I first noticed it in this article. For example (the case that I first noticed), in the second paragraph of the lead, if I touch "stilbestrol" the popup displays two quite different structures with no captions, one for stilbestrol itself and one for triphenylethylene. At a glance it looks like two completely different structures for stilbestrol, with no way to tell which is the real one. It's a bit too much to do it from my phone, so I'll leave it till I have a desktop again in a week or so. I believe the proper thing would be to enter a wishlist item for captions to be shown in these popups. If anyone wants to preempt me based on this preliminary description, please do so! --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 23:59, 18 November 2023 (UTC)