Talk:Digger (soldier)

Slang
I don't think that it still qualifies as "slang" - not since ... oh ... about 50 years ago. Also, it should be at digger, and the no-one-ever-heard-of-it computer game at Digger (computer game) or some such. Tannin 12:39, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I won't move it just yet not until it is a bit more fleshed out into a proper article. Tannin 12:39, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * There's also the diggers (ANZAC) to consider (digger had once been a redirect to the Diggers disambig page). It's only marginally better than this article. Geoff/Gsl 22:26, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Can any New Zealanders indicate whether "digger" is still in common usage in NZ? Geoff/Gsl 01:52, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Im a New Zealander and we use digger when talking about pre-1920 new zealand military forces, and as casual slang for an enegetic or particuly militaristic child. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.150.112.55 (talk) 05:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Tommy
Is there a source to substantiate the claim that World War I soldiers resented the name Tommy? If not the caveat should be removed. Philip Baird Shearer 12:12, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


 * In Patsy Adam-Smith's The ANZACs, Chapter 33:


 * Theo Ford [Sergeant, Australian 4th Field Artillery] remembers that 'by the end of 1917 we were all, Aussies and En-Zedders alike, calling one another "Digger".' The term was taken up by the folk back home and the men were happy about this, whereas the English soldier 'never liked "Tommy" because it carried the "Superior person's" view of his attributes'.


 * It's not clear to me whether the second "Tommy" quote is from Ford. Anyway, that's where the disputed sentence came from.  "Resented" might be too strong a word, but the point I was making is that a digger would call another digger "Digger" while a Tommy would probably not call another Tommy "Tommy".  Geoff/Gsl 08:58, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I should imagine Digger is a self-found terminology of identity for the infantry Private. [ Formally established were Sapper for the Engineers, Gunner for the Artillery, ___ ] Tommie is not exactly the same thing. Apparantly it goes back to the Duke of Wellington in legend, was used as an example "John Smith" name for filling in British Army paperwork, and celebrated in a Rupyard Kipling poem.   The British soldier's performance of self would be leavened with those influences.


 * Proust uses "tommies" in Time Regained - http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/p/proust/marcel/p96t/complete.html
 * 'And she rather awkwardly associated the name of her son-in-law with everything that concerned the English soldiers and alluded to the pleasure he found in living on intimate terms with the Australians, as also with the Scottish, the New Zealanders and the Canadians. “My son-in-law, Saint-Loup, knows the slang of all those brave ‘tommies’. He knows how to make himself understood by those who came from the far ‘Dominions’ and he would just as soon fraternise with the most humble private as with the general commanding the base.” '
 * "Diggers" would have sent Proust's readers puzzling, he would have imagined, I think. Even with all 'the slang' information beside him.
 * --Laurencebeck (talk) 00:52, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Eureka Stockade
On the Diggers (True Levellers) there is a statement "ANZAC troops in World War I were known as Diggers" on 25 September (today) user "213.130.244.29" added "this was a mark of respect for the gold diggers who took part in the Eureka Stockade" I have removed it and asked for a source. Is there any source which verifys this additional statement? Philip Baird Shearer 12:12, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I've never heard this one. The ANZACs says "it had been used among the miners in some units but it was from the New Zealanders, who took it from their country's gum-diggers, that the Australians adopted the term." Geoff/Gsl 08:58, 26 September 2005 (UTC)


 * You can find numerous references of English immigrants and visitors using "digger" to refer generally to any Australian minor or labourer in the letters of the late 1800's. I doubt it has much to do with Peter Lawler and gang. More likely the name was in such common usage that it just carried over. 121.209.86.115 (talk) 08:37, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Not a national personification
I've removed this article from that category. The label digger doesn't really embody the nation as such, in teh way that America's Uncle Sam or France's Marianne does. It appears to be an embodiment of an ideal soldier rather than the nation itself. Rhialto 07:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree--Golden Wattle talk 08:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed Longmore Claim
I have removed the Longmore claim as it did not quote a source. I put that note there ages back and put the source but its been removed. In the interim I spoke with a West Australian Professor who records that stuff who had other to add, plus I then found more online. The Longmore claim ended up as mishmash that is being erroneously cut and pasted elsewhere online. I have some books ordered that will verify it all. Johneen Treanor Jones - Gundagai — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.225.56 (talk) 12:45, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with your removal of that information. I could be wrong, but I don't believe that Australian troops trained in the UK before going to Gallipoli, so that is most likely incorrect. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 00:01, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Rupert. I don't think the Anzacs went to the UK pre Gallipoli but the 42nd Battalion did pre going to the Western Front. Cyril Longmore was in that Battalion. He was my cousin, (his Mum my great aunt). Whatever, it is obvious to me that the term evolved from the Australian troops, many of who were first miners who dug for gold then dug trenches to fight the war from. When the 42nd was in the UK they were out on the plains somewhere in Wiltshire I think, practicing trench digging prior embarkation to France and Belgium etc. Cyril Longmore later worked for the 'West Australian' newspaper and in his 'NonCom' (his field commission was withdrawn when he returned from war), column in that paper a contributor wrote in saying he heard the term 'digger' in the WA Goldfields, 20 years pre it being used in the UK and on the Western Front. Cyril, the editor of that column, did not contradict that claim. The WA Professor I mentioned above has researched the origin of the term 'digger' thoroughly and he credits the term to more than one source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.117.180 (talk) 01:14, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I know the source of that 'digger' claim that I removed from the article page, just it will take me ages to find it. I will though as I am researching connected content. I have a lot of Cyril Longmore's unreleased related story and its obvious in it he was a very sincere fella who worked hard and I do not think he would appreciate anything being claimed that was not totally correct. Cyril was also in the WA Goldfields Infantry pre the Australian Army being formed and his KIA at Gallipoli brother was a miner and went to Gallipoli with the 11th AIF. Both Cyril and his brother were born at Gundagai but Cyril had a birthdate and birthplace change due to an illness re his future career choice and pathway. Cyril was also a WA State Prospector later on then did some of his own dollying. He'd not begrudge the 'digger' term being attributed to all its sources. One of the online cut and pasters has given Cyril a military promotion from 'Captain Australian Infantry' to 'Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel (temporary Brigadier-General)' He outranked some of Australia's more recent brave soldiers! That is a fast trip up the promotions ladder and given it was just a temp BG rank that makes that cut and paste even scarier and would have made for a busy day travelling up, then back down. Cyril Longmore hit the promotions ceiling at 'Captain'. He was never all the other,[Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel (temporary Brigadier-General)]. Cheers. JTJ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.117.180 (talk) 01:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Rupert,

I received the books I ordered today and had a brief look as I am doing other things the next few weeks. The WA Prof noted that CL first described the term digger re the trench digging on Sailsbury Plain, UK. His reference is one I hadn't noted previously though I may have read it years back on Trove more likely than not, as he informed me of it via a pers.comm. My column reference re 'digger' is separate to the Profs reference. My 'digger' Bean source is separate again and as its a large archive it may take me ages unless I have it on disk here somewhere which will make the search easier. Whatever, I think NonComs column a good thing to asses the origin on with the other sources noted. In it all is the diaspora of NSW men many of whom were former miners, into the WA Goldfields, then off to war from Fremantle so those amazing WA Batallions (11th, 16th, 42nd etc), that contained several VC winners were not just comprised of all WA cornstalks. Cyril Longmores brother who was KIA in Gallipoli was Gundagai born, a Victorian engine driver then into the WA mines and in a 'West of Alice Springs prospecting party that also comprised my g.uncle and grandfather, seeking that famous El Dorado', and good friends with some of the miner VCs, who then all went off to war. With that style of background its easy to see that 'The Diggers' were closely linked to mining as well as to the Profession of Arms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.138.240.236 (talk) 04:38, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * G'day again, I look forward to seeing what you come up with. The article could do with a bit of work. Thank you for your enthusiasm. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:59, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
 * G'day, I've had a go at adding some sources. In the process, I found a reference for the Longmore claim, so I put it in again. Happy to discuss if you want. There is still plenty more that could be added, so please feel free to do so. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:35, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Cyril Longmore
Hi Rupert. So just what is your Longmore 'digger' reference? I read what you put several times but there seems not to be a defined reference. You need to put the actual reference in and note the publication it is published in please. Cyril was my first cousin (once removed) i.e. his mum was my great aunt. I have studied him extensively re his war effort and he really appears to not want to stand out though some other person did a silly careless cut and paste online and made him a Captain Cyril Longmore, Australian Infantry. Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel (temporary Brigadier-General).which he wasn't. He was a Captain not the rest. See https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13223/page/1024. He was awarded an Order of Leopold for Passhendale and a Croix de Guerre. Cyril was born in Gundagai but had a name change to enhance his chances in life. One of his in-laws says she has a grave but there could be any name on any grave in the 1880s-90s. Cyril himself notes his name change in one of the national newspapers. Thus he has two personal histories and maybe some others as he spent a lot of time in the Nor'West of WA. I think the best authority to nail down just what is what re the term 'digger' is for someone to contact Professor Grahame Seal, of Curtin University, W.A. Graham is a Professor of Folklore and would attach some authority to just where the term 'digger' came from and that is what is required given the term is significant in Australia's story. People who only went as far as the old Intermediate Cert who then go putting out rubbish history have no legitimacy in putting forward rubbish about significant issues in Australia's story.

Cheers Johneen Treanor Jones Gundagai
 * G'day. The reference is here:, which is included at the end of the sentence. I have tweaked to wording to try to make that clearer now. Unfortunately, I haven't yet been able to lay my hands on the book as yet, though, and probably don't have the time at the moment (busy with work and family). The article is in no way complete, so if you feel it needs further work, please by all means feel free to work on it; that said please be careful with how you approach it. Depending upon how the information is presented, contacting a professor may be seen to be original research, which Wikipedia does not encourage. It would, of course, though, be perfectly acceptable to reference a work by the professor, if they have published something on the topic, per WP:V, and to use that reference to discuss any alternative theories (or otherwise) so long as they are given equal weight per WP:UNDUE. Anyway, have a good weekend. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 20:08, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Longmore
So you are saying that Cyril Longmore is "in part' responsible for recording the origin of the term 'Digger'? He isn't solely responsible though?.  It might be said the term appeared via a variety of influences.  What book can't you lay hands on?  Lycett's or Longmore's?

Johneen Treanor Jones Gundagai — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.147.194.181 (talk) 23:14, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
 * G'day, again, yes it is Longmore's book (Eggs-a-Cook) that I'm trying to lay my hands on. Regarding responsibility for the term, what this article is trying to recount is that there are many theories, one of which includes Longmore as being a possible origin. I'd say it would be impossible to determine a definitive answer, and I think that is pretty much what the references say. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:33, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

One of Cyril's Books
I have a copy of Eggs-A-Cook (with permission) from Cyril's original copy so it has his handwritten remarks within it. What in Eggs-A-Cook were you after?

Johneen Treanor Jones Gundagai — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.161.168.148 (talk) 11:01, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

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