Talk:Dike (construction)

Difference btwn Dike and Levee
What is the difference between a levee and a dike? Bastie 00:16, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

A levee can be either a natural or a manmade feature and is always a bank. A dyke, in contrast, is always manmade and can be either a bank or a ditch. 82.10.103.233 20:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * - or a combination of bank and ditch as in Offa's Dyke, for example. When used as a boundary marker, a dike is normally dug on the owner's propery, with one lip of the excavation adjacant to the neighbour's land. The spoil is thrown up alongside the trench, into a bank on the owner's land and a hedge is set upon the bank. The Anglo-Saxon word was díc which was pronounced with a hard c in northern English and with a soft one in southern English. In southern English, it therefore led to the modern word 'ditch' while in the Midlands and North, the same feature is a dike. When used primarily for drainage, a dike is normally a trench; the bank would keep surface water from flowing into it. From the 17th century or so, Dutch usage influenced the use of the English word, particularly in relation to the drainage works in the Netherlands. In The Fens, where some Dutch drainage engineers were employed, the bank which the Dutch would call a dijk, is normally called a 'bank' (as in Roman Bank for example), though place-names reveal some medieval use of the word wal(l).


 * The OED's earliest note of the use of the word in connection with a sea bank is from 1531 'the walles dyches bankes and other defenses by the costes of the sea'. This spelling is clearly not Dutch but southern English.


 * In The Fens, the silt strip left by a natural levée is known as a 'roddon' (the spelling varies). (RJP 23:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC))

I Agree that the two articles should be merged. "A levee can be either a natural or a man-made feature and is always a bank. A dyke, in contrast, is always manmade and can be either a bank or a ditch." Where did you find that definition? I offer these definitions of "dike" and "levee".
 * 1. Dike: An embankment to confine or control water. Often built along the banks of a river to prevent overflow of lowlands: a levee.
 * 2. Levee: Raised bank of earth built to control or confine water (also known as a dike).

As for the history of the words:

Dike: O.E. dic "trench, ditch," from P.Gmc. *dik- (cf. O.N. diki, Du. dijk, Ger. Deich), from PIE base *dheigw- "to pierce, fasten" (cf. Skt. dehi- "wall," O.Pers. dida "wall, stronghold, fortress," Pers. diz). At first "an excavation," later (1487) applied to the resulting earth mound; a sense development paralleled by cognate forms in many other languages. This is the northern variant of the word, which in the south of England yielded ditch.

Levee: 1719, "natural or artificial embankment to prevent overflow of a river," from New Orleans Fr. levée "raising, lifting, embankment," from Fr., originally fem. pp. of lever "to raise," from L. levare "to raise" (see lever). In an earlier sense borrowed from the lit. Fr. meaning, it was used for "morning assembly held by a prince or king (upon rising from bed)," 1672.

While the two words may have origonaly been distinct, they are currently understood in the majority of the English-speaking world to be interchangable and are most appropriatly placed in the same article together.Tmchk | Talk 00:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes but why would two different things be merged?

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here because of local interpretations of the word "dike". Outside the US (e.g. the UK), the word a dike is certainly not only a ditch, but more usually an artificial or natural slope above ground level, just like a levee. The BBC use it alongside "levee", usually "levee" for US reports and "dyke" for other country reports. A BBC quote: "In Lyon County, Nevada, about 3,000 people were stranded after a levee, or dyke, along a canal broke early on Saturday, authorities said, and in parts of the town of Fernley water was up to 3ft deep."77.248.55.53 (talk) 22:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Picture
This article really needs a picture of a typical Dutch dike. Okay, any dike will do, but it'd be nice to see a Dutch one since the name originates from it and it's an extremely typical thing about Dutch landscapes. --Michiel Sikma 20:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, the current photo of the Afsluitdijk also is incorrect. While it is named to be a dike, it really is a dam. A dike is a border between land and water, a dam is between water and water (like the dam in Amsterdam). I'll see if I have a good photo of a Dutch dike somewhere. nftaDaedalus 02:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, as the article says, the English word dyke doesn't come from the Dutch word - it was used in Old English.156.34.37.96 15:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge?
I think dike should not be merged with levee, because levee, though technically a type of dike, has all sorts of associations with the word that are primarily American and dike has all sorts of associations with the word that are Dutch. Considering the fact that the Dutch dike Stelling van Amsterdam is on the World Heritage list, I think you should keep the word dike. I will post a picture of a diagram of a dike plus pump taken from one of the breaks in this Stelling van Amsterdam dikeJane 07:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Dike vs. Levee
Sorry, I'm a little confused. I see from the merger discussions above that Dike and Levee are apparently two different things. If this is the case why does is the sentence "It is also known in American English (notably in the Midwest) as a levee," included in the opening paragraph? Mutt (talk) 06:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Since a dike and a levee are simply two different local names for the same thing, I suggest merging the articles. For now I merged the text of both articles so that they are identical, apart from the wording "dike" and "levee", and the introduction about the origin of the words. 77.248.55.53 (talk) 00:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree they should be merged. The fact that historically and regionally the term dyke may be used or have been used for ditches, which are not covered by the term levee, is insufficient ground for having separate articles. We should still note the differences in use though, which are more than being different local names. First, unlike a dike, a levee may be natural. I don't think that is an issue because the article is really concerned with artificial levees, but the point should be noted. Second, at least according to the dictionaries I've consulted, a levee forms the embankment of specifically a river. While that may be too strict – what about canals? – the term appears not to be common for sea dikes. --Lambiam 16:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well now the articles are identical they should be merged before further edits are made. My preference is to merge them under the more international term Dike, what do others think? Mutt (talk) 21:01, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * When choosing a common article title the following rules should be followed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Opportunities_for_commonality
 * "Wikipedia tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English. In choosing words or expressions, especially for article titles, there may be value in making choices that avoid varying spellings, where possible. In extreme cases of conflicting names, a common substitute (such as fixed-wing aircraft) is favored over national varieties (fixed-wing aeroplanes [British English], and fixed-wing airplanes [American English]). If a variable spelling appears in an article name, redirect pages are made to accommodate the other variants, as with Artefact and Artifact, so that they can always be found in searches and linked to from either spelling. Sensitivity to terms that may be used differently between different varieties of English allows for wider readability; this may include glossing terms and providing alternative terms where confusion may arise. Insisting on a single term or a single usage as the only correct option does not serve well the purposes of an international encyclopedia. Use an unambiguous word or phrase in preference to one that is ambiguous because of national differences. For example, use alternative route (or even other route) rather than alternate route, since alternate may mean only "alternating" to a British English speaker."


 * Both "Levee" and "Dike" appear to fail these criteria. "Levee" because it is not a common word outside the United States. "Dike" because it is ambiguous, or even means something different to Americans. Mirriam Webster defines a levee as an embankment for preventing flooding; a dike as a bank usually of earth constructed to control or confine water; an embankment as a raised structure (as of earth or gravel) used especially to hold back water; Oxford Dictionary defines a dike as an embankment built to prevent flooding; a levee as an embankment built to prevent the overflow of a river; an embankment as a wall or bank built to prevent flooding by a river. I therefore would suggest "Embankment (dike or levee)" as the common title.77.248.55.53 (talk) 01:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That seems like an acceptable compromise to me. Although I would point out that Embankment seems to have more alternate meanings than Dike and is potentially more ambiguous. But let's get these merged and tackle that later. Mutt (talk) 12:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Practical solution to merge suggestion
Keeping two articles with virtually the same contents does provide little benefit. One or more redirects will keep the articles as one entity. Inwind (talk) 19:50, 9 December 2008 (UTC)