Talk:Dionysius IV of Cheppad

Discrepancies.
Following discrepancies are found in this article.


 * 1) Though the title is Cheppad Philipose Mar Dionysius (Dionysius IV), this is not his biography but a description of a church where he was entombed.
 * 2) Mar Dionysius resigned in 1852. So his term ended in that year though he died only in 1855.
 * 3) He did not appoint any successor, but the Governments of Travancore and Cochin issued Proclamations in August 1852, "approving Mathews Mar Athanasius as Malankara Matropolitan because Mar Dionysius had resigned due to old age." (Ref: Royal Proclamation.)
 * 4) There was no Orthodox church in Malankara before 1912. So during the life time of Cheppad Mar Dionysius there were no Orthodox churches in Malankara (Kerala) Neduvelilmathew (talk) 04:41, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Action: Discrepancies were removed and the article updated.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 05:27, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks better and this article seems to be close to B. Some links like Patriarch looks unintended. Please see whether more links can be added to people/place/org mentioned in the article. GDibyendu (talk) 15:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Action: Links removed. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 13:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Anachronisms
This is an explanation to anachronistic statements made in the article “Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious”

(For more information, please refer the original records still available or history books by unbiased authors) 1. Cheppad Mar Dionysious (Mar Thoma XII) did not consecrate any successor.

2. Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious was only 9 years old when Mathews Mar Athanaseus (Mar Thoma XIII) was consecrated in 1842. 3. Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious was consecrated as a bishop in 1865, ten years after the death Cheppad Mar Dionysious.(Mar Thoma XII)

4. The Governement of Travancore and Cochin declared Mathews Mar Athanaseus (Mar Thoma XIII)as the Malankara Metrapolitan in 1852, soon after Cheppad Mar Dionysious abdicated. Thus he became the successor of Cheppad Mar Dionysious. It was Mar Athanaseus who was with Cheppad Mar Dionysious till the end of his life.

5. Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious was consecrated as a bishop in 1865, thirteen years after Mathews Mar Athanaseus (Mar Thoma XIII) was declared as Malankara Metrapolitan.

6. Mathews Mar Athanaseus (Mar Thoma XIII) appointed Thomas Mar Athanaseus (Mar Thoma XIV) as his successor on June 1, 1868 and not  Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious.

So Mathews Mar Athanaseus (Mar Thoma XIII) was the successor of Cheppad Mar Dionysious (Mar Thoma XII) and not  Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Edits by 125.99.64.186
Comments on 17 edits made from August 12 to 19, to this article, “Cheppad Philipose Mar Dionysius”.

1. Consecration - Malankara Throne. All thrones are chairs. But not all chairs are thrones. Once a chair is used for enthonement it becomes a throne. To Show that Cheppad Mar Dionysius is a legitimate person to be the successor of Mar Thoma I the throne is to be mentioned. Also Malankara throne should be in Malankara. So it’s whereabouts also is given. ‘’Action’’: Reverted.

2.Reformation. The corrections seems to show that the reformation in Malankara Church was the work of Anglican Missionaries. It seems that 125.99.64.186 believes that members of the Malankara (Kerala) church are incapable of bringing reformation in their own Church without the support of a foreign power?

125.99.64.186 thinks that the reformation people (now Mar Thoma Church) “abolished Syrian tradtions and introduced Anglican tradition?” It is necessary to mention from where, when and how Syrian tradtions came to Malanakara and what are the Anglican traditions introduced. Blaming the English for all the troubles in Malankara church is unfounded. ‘’Action’’: Removed.

3. Mathews Mar Athanasius The consecration of Mathews Mar Athanasius happened during the time of Cheppad Philipose Mar Dionysius. So it is necessary to mention it in the article. But details of the life and times of Mathews Mar Athanasius should be in his biography. Action: Unnecessary statements removed.

4. Eastern Orthodox. It is mentioned that, “Those who hold traditional Eastern Orthodox tradition sent Pulikottil Ouseph Kathanar to Antioch.” Are there any document in Malankara (Kerala), written before 1909, (the year in which Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious II died), to show that Malankara Church used  “Orthodox” as an adjective?

Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious II went to Antioch on May 30, 1864. That is almost 10 years after the demise of Cheppad Mar Dionysius in 1855. This part is in no way related to this article. Action; Moved to the end.. 5. Patriarch of Antioch and Malankara Church. It is mentioned that, “Act of reformationists was it gave Antioch an opportunity to interfere in the affairs of Malankara Church.” It is not clear why this matter was added to this article. Antioch interfered in the affairs 20 years after the demise of Cheppad Mar Dionysius. Action: Removed from the article.

Please note that Mathews Mar Athanasius did not give any assurance to the Patriarch of Antioch allowing him to interfere in the affairs of Malanakara Church. It was done by someone else. For more details read the references given at the end of the articleNeduvelilmathew (talk) 07:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Malakara throne
Please study more about this throne before deleting it. Details are in books written by Orthodox and Mar Thoma historians. Because it is an antique it is not exhibited publicly. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move, as per Talk:Mar Thoma I. Neduvelilmathew, Naming_conventions_(clergy) is clear on this; if you believe this is not correct then the best place to resolve your concerns would be at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions. fish &amp;karate 15:00, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

– Relisted. Favonian (talk) 11:12, 1 October 2011 (UTC) Names of this ancient historical church clergy at the higher level is not given in the Naming conventions (clergy). These new titles given to these Malankara Metropolitans and bishops are ridiculus and insulting. I am a member of this church. So the reverting. Neduvelilmathew (talk) 10:09, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thoma XII → Cheppad Philipose Mar Dionysius (Mar Thoma XII)
 * Talk:Thoma XII → Talk:Cheppad Philipose Mar Dionysius (Mar Thoma XII)
 * Thoma XI → Punnathara Mar Dionysious (Mar Thoma XI)
 * Talk:Thoma XI → Talk:Punnathara Mar Dionysious (Mar Thoma XI)
 * Thoma X → Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious I (Mar Thoma X)
 * Talk:Thoma X → Talk:Pulikkottil Joseph Mar Dionysious I (Mar Thoma X)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 1 August 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved (closed by non-admin page mover) Wug·a·po·des​ 23:46, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

– -Honorifics, -titles. PPEMES (talk) 21:50, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Mar Dionysius IV → Dionysius IV
 * Mar Thoma I → Thoma I
 * Mar Thoma II → Thoma II
 * Mar Thoma III → Thoma III
 * Mar Thoma IV → Thoma IV
 * Mar Thoma V → Thoma V
 * Mar Dionysius I → Dionysius I
 * Mar Thoma VII → Thoma VII
 * Mar Thoma VIII → Thoma VIII
 * Mar Thoma IX → Thoma IX
 * Baselios Augen I → Augen I
 * Baselios Mar Thoma Mathews I → Thoma Mathews I
 * Baselios Paulose I → Paulose I
 * Baselios Marthoma Didymos I → Marthoma Didymos I
 * Baselios Geevarghese I → Geevarghese I
 * Baselios Geevarghese II → Geevarghese II
 * Kuriakose Mar Clemis → Kuriakose Clemis
 * Baselios Mar Thoma Mathews II → Thoma Mathews II
 * Baselios Mar Thoma Paulose II → Thoma Paulose II


 * Support Rreagan007 (talk) 21:42, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. Dionysius IV and Dionysius I won't fly, the first being a redirect to Dionysius IV of Constantinople and the second a dab page (he was also known as Thoma VI though, so that might be a WP:NATURAL dab). I generally support (or at least, don't oppose) the rest. No such user (talk) 14:39, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Dionysius IV could then go as Dionysius IV of Cheppad. The second, I'd support ALT Thoma VI as suggested. PPEMES (talk) 15:18, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.