Talk:Dipsadinae

Requested move 14 May 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 19:49, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Dipsadidae → Dipsadinae – This page should really be called Dipsadinae, with Dipsadidae as a redirect page. I realize that many sources use Dipsadidae. Many also use Dipsadinae, including the most comprehensive online database for reptile taxonomy, and there is a good reason to use Dipsadinae: if Dipsadidae is elevated to a full family, then all the other pages on subfamilies of colubrid snakes should be as well. Presently this is the only page on Wikipedia that is inconsistent with an 8-subfamily Colubridae (the other 7 being Sibynophiinae, Natricinae, Pseudoxenodontinae, Grayiinae, Calamariinae, Ahaetullinae, and Colubrinae). Elevating Dipsadidae to a family results in a paraphyletic Colubridae, since dipsadines are not at the base of the colubrid tree, but in the middle, and results in numerous other changes having to be made.

To quote from the 2nd-most-recent textbook on the subject : "''The branching pattern and sister-group relationships within alethinophidians have been in flux, largely because different analyses and data sets have yielded different results. Several recent phylogenetic analyses based on large numbers of taxa and genes have produced relatively similar relationships. The primary difference among recent phylogenies is the assignment of clade names and centers mostly on whether to call lower level clades subfamilies or families. If, for example, the monophyletic clades Dipsadidae, Pseudoxenodontidae, Colubridae, and Natricidae are deemed “families,” as Nicolas Vidal and colleagues have suggested, then they form the Colubroidea, a clade that is sister to the Elapoidea, which contains the two monophyletic clades, Elapidae and Lamprophiidae. If, however, the same four subclades are considered subfamilies (e.g., Dipsadinae, Pseudoxenodontinae, Colubrinae, and Natricinae, then they form the Colubridae and the clade (Xenodermatidae (Pareatidae (Viperidae (Homalopsidae (Colubridae (Elapidae+Lamprophiidae)))))) becomes the Colubroidea. The point is that taxonomic decisions made at lower taxonomic levels have a cascading effect on clade names throughout the phylogeny. We take a conservative approach, retaining the Colubroidea as it was defined historically, with Dipsadinae, Pseudoxenodontinae, Colubrinae, and Natricinae comprising the family Colubridae.''"

Regarding the 5 criteria in the page naming guidelines:
 * 1) I would argue that Dipsadinae and Dipsadidae are equal in terms of recognizability, since they differ by only one letter and the -idae/-inae endings are standard family/subfamily suffixes in animal taxonomy.
 * 2) Being the scientific name of a taxonomic group, I think both Dipsadinae and Dipsadidae are about equally unnatural to a non-specialist (i.e. both words are completely alien to anyone who hasn't read about snake taxonomy), and the redirect page will serve to bring anyone searching for or linking to Dipsadidae to the correct page.
 * 3) Both names are equally precise; neither is use for any other clade or topic.
 * 4) Both names are equally concise.
 * 5) Dipsadinae is much more consistent with the articles on the other 7 colubrid subfamilies, for the reasons described above. Especially see Natricinae, which is often called "Natricidae" by some. This is prominently noted on the page, but the subfamily name is the name of the article.

Andrew M. Durso (talk) 06:20, 14 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Support Per well reasoned nomination and for consistency with taxonomy presented in Colubridae. Plantdrew (talk) 17:20, 19 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.