Talk:Dir En Grey/Archive 1

About Kyo
This isn't a major change to this page, but I've added a listing for Kyo if any are interested. I felt that he has done some rather significant things beyond just being a part of Dir en grey, and that he deserved a listing as such. I feel I covered it well, but feel free to make changes. I'm sure I probably made language mistakes here and there that others may find that I couldn't see, or prehaps n-pov mistakes even though attempted to remain unbiased.

Also, you may have a perspective on it that I was unable to put into words.


 * contains very brief history, run-down of his accomplishments, and description of his work

~ Saka. 12:24. 04.01.2004


 * I've replied to this @ Kyo's talk page. :)
 * tp 21:29, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)

Translation of band name
I've changed the translation of the word "Dir en Grey" in this file. I've never agreed with the extremely unbased "Silver Coin" claims, and it's almost obvious that Dir en Grey means "to you in grey" since Lareine's demo is also called ~Haiiro no anata o~, which means just that. I hope I didn't break any HORRIBLE un-written rule :P ~Ikis, 20:30 06.28.2005 (Israel time. YOU calculate >>;)


 * In response to the name issue, I went and did a little googling. What I found was this, and I reworked the initial paragraph with it in mind. I acknowledged both sides to the translation argument, so I think it works out pretty well.
 * --Illness Illusion 19:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup
I devided the band's release history with their performance history of other random history. The article was getting too cluttered to read. I also removed some unneeded information, like most of the info on saku and clever slezoid, or personal information (like abotu shinya's dogs) that wasn't very relevent to the topic. ~Saka 11:25 September 22, 2005

Release dates?
I'm new to this band... but I am unsure about the release dates.. how can a single (ie, THE FINAL) but released a year before the album?


 * Response: In Japan singles are usually produced and released before the release of an album. This is the opposite of the US custom of releasing singles after the cd release.
 * Several of the singles were written released very far in advance of the writing, recording, and release of the full cd. The Final and Child Prey are notorious examples of this.
 * ~Saka 11:28 September 22, 2005

Minor copyediting
Corrected some grammatical mistakes, and re-worded some sentences that didn't sound very good, in response to the cleanup feature. I think it could still use a little more work. -Kyle, 16:03 3 October, 2005.

Revert
Not sure who rewrote things so drastically since I last edited the page, but I really think it's got a quite a bit wrong with it. There seems to be some bias in the first paragraph ("profound lyrics"), and the brief history seems to have deleted the actual background of the band in favor of a more "recent events" type thing. I'm going to revert back a bit, I apologize if anyone made any significant changes.

Speaking of which, is it just me, or does the entirety of the "name paragraph" sound awkward now? --Illness Illusion 03:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Semi-extensive copyediting
[See the [ version comparison].] I've fixed a number of grammatical and formatting mistakes throughout the text, and standardised the date formats to the more human-readable English standard (from dd.mm.yyyy, yyyy.mm.dd, and dd Month yyyy to Month dd, yyyy). I converted some inline external links to wikilinks and added a few new wikilinks. The links list was pruned to remove apparently irrelevent links; see "Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links" (official policy). Several links seem to simply be portals or otherwise unrelated websites. I didn't touch the fan links, but will return to prune that as well -- only notable groups should be included, if at all. Likewise, I'll later remove the lyrics section, since the information should be placed on Wikipedia on the appropriate album or song page. I further rewrote the Band Members section into prose form, which should be much more readable, and moved it above the Brief History section. I still see quite a few improvements that could be made, but I'll wait a bit for those. On a related note, could anyone clarify the following line from the article? Dir en grey's international fans who speak a Latin-based language often use the abbreviations Deg and Diru when both speaking and typing for sake of brevity. // Pathoschild 04:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Fandom and other information
I removed the last paragraph of this section. I feel that defining Visual Kei at this point in the article is unnecessary and Visual Kei has it's own article for this. Also stating that Diru strayed from their Visual Kei roots is stated in the previous paragraph and is redundant. - frogfusious

Revert/Major Changes
I feel this version of the history section is too cluttered. Therefore, I've reverted to my previous version (from September 2005) of the page and have edited it, taking into consideration the edits that have occured between that version and the former 'current' version. Changes I've made to my old version include:
 * New recent history, new older history
 * Minor gramatical changes
 * Completion of the change to American written style dates (i.e., July 9, 2005)
 * Inclusion of new links
 * Removal of dead links and repeat links
 * Alphabetized unofficial links, prioritized official links

PLEASE NOTE: The Band's early histroy has NOT been abandoned, as was a complaint last time. If the page is lacking in early history, it is because is was not there to begin with. My version was simply a division of the information into two sections and included everything the version before it did with one difference: organization. However, there is a significant amount of recent information here, and I have added a bit more. At the same time - I have added information about the origin of the band and early occurance that were previously unreleased here. Hopefully, this will quite the complaints about lack of early history.

New information and corrections are welcome (Particuarly needed on Fandom and the Profile), but I feel that the page needs a distinction between what is actual history and what is just a glorified release timeline.

Hope you guys like the changes. ~Saka 5:01 January 9, 2006

Adding details concerning westward shift....
Mostly added some info in fandom and other information. I think more detail could be given on the nuance in Deg's shift from Vis Kei / Japanese to Rock / Western influences. For instance, consider how six Ugly began the shift to the "Vulgar era" (a term already on page). While Western / Rock influenced, it just seemed there is some more detail there; the punk vs. metal is a good start I think. Also, I wanted to mention how many elements of six Ugly were already part of Deg's history - for example, Byo shin epitomizes in some ways the sound of this album, and yet it is simply reworked from their indies release! I don't think I actually added that in yet...

Also, when adding things, i noticed it seems there is overlap between Release summary and fandom sections. Not quite sure how this should be resolved. Maybe some of my edits should be closer to release info...

I guess to summarize, my main point is that there are some good details here that, as Saka mentions are not history per se, but perhaps *should* be included as sort of an analysis or 'glorification' of their releases.

Anyways check it out the edits and make 'em better...!

Minor fix
just made one minor grammer change

changed

"The release was such a departure that the band to consider releasing it under a new name"

to

"The release was such a departure that the band considered releasing it under a new name"

looked like the author changed how they wanted to refer to the event half way through perhaps intending

"The release was such a departure that it caused the band to consider releasing it under a new name"

well this is proably to verbose so feel free to chop it out of the discussion. NatDinoMus 3rd Feb 06

Rework
I’ve tried to rework the entire article, it looked like an ugly, cluttered mess, information about each members belongs in their own article, as does in-depth looks and fan receptions of each release. - Deathrocker 20:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Questionable development
I'm pretty shocked how a previously rather decent article has been dumbed down and superficialised. Several bits of useful information are gone (the whole style/sellout controversy for example) instead there is an air now of bias and - excuse my frankness - bad English. And really, is a picture that portraits the group in it's long-gone Visual Kei looks appropriate for the Wikipedia? Dir en grey are touring the US right now and will do more concerts in Europe later this year. That means that quite a few people might want to look them up here and they will want a well written and down to earth band history and probably one or two paragraphs about the stylistic development over the years.

I'll try see to that myself depending on how much time I'll be able to spare. - Cyrus XIII, March 18th, 2006

I've been watching this page for a bit, and I must agree with Cyrus. Things have been dumbed down, and I wish someone with the proper knowledge could expand this page from it's current narrowness about touring into a well bodied article. There are other aspects about this group that could be documented. - TheS0S 19:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm about to give up on this one. Bits I added in the 1st paragraph, concerning the band's musical style have already been reduced to "a form of Hard rock" which is about as expressive as "this band plays music". So sad the people responsible lack the social competence to actually use this discussion page as a means to come up with something that would meet Wikipedia's quality standards instead of promoting their own opinion or wishful thinking on the topic at hand (as I mentioned before, the fanbase of this group is somewhat devided and it would be desirable if certain more narrow minded individuals stood as far away from the edit button as possible).

If anyone would like to team up with me to give this article a complete and thorough makeover, feel free to contact me here or on ICQ (74062151) - Cyrus XIII, April 20th, 2006

I suggest that you A) assume good faith. B) Study the articles of Gothic rock, Industrial and Pop to find out what these genres actually are musically, before cluttering the article listing 5 or more genres that the band have no connection to sound wise. You may learn something. - Deathrocker 20:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

My iteration of the paragraph didn't even contain two of the three genres you just linked, a look at the article's history would have told you that. Under such circumstances you might understand that the ability to assume good faith is a tiny bit strained on my end. - Cyrus XIII, April 21th, 2006

Seperate Discography?
I'm sorry if this made sense to every one but why is the discography on a seperate page? im pretty sure that isnt standard wikipedia practice. Maybe the pages should be merged ? user:coda_littleking

It is certainly some sort of standard for bands with vast discographies (think KISS), but this is not really the case yet with the group at hand here. I'd also suggest to do something about this extensive tour title list. It seems so profoundly irrelevant. - Cyrus XIII, April 21th, 2006

Quite alot of bands have it on Wikipedia, including, David Bowie, Marilyn Manson.. and others, Dir en Grey have released quite alot of singles, which is included on the discography page. - Deathrocker 10:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Better image
I've changed the image for a better one, and I think it's more recent. You can see the members more clearly than in the old one. Hope you don't get angry :)

~ FAZZ @ 15 May 2006

Erasing and Possible Rewriting
Today, I was seeking information on Die, the guitarist for this band. When I arrived at this often referenced page, I found it was completely empty. I've heard that this article has been dumbed down, and I agree that some important facts and some good writing are missing. I have restored the article, and request that anybody who wants a new article write one themselves. In the mean time, let's leave up this current revision. It is, after all, better to have a low-standard article than to not have one at all. - notjake13 5:40, 16 May 2006 (EST)

POV
this article really reads like a fan page... not an informative article. i'm going to go through and take out some of the POV stuff and clean up some spelling, grammar, etc. let me know if you disagree with anything i alter. Tmkain 01:18, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I've checked all of the band members' articles too and they're even worse -- especially the article on Die ("don't let his appearance fool you!", "I wish them the best of luck", etc.). I wouldn't even know where to begin to clean up this POV/weasleword mess, especially since it's not particularly a band I know much about.  --I am not good at running 04:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Article marked for its lack of NPOV and citations
I agree with TheSOS and notjake13. The article now has a respective marking which will hopefully draw enough attention to the issue. A complete rewrite is needed, to get rid of a few cases of personal bias and utter fanboyism. Plus there are no citations for most of what is in it (which makes some aspects, especially the band's early history rather disputable). - Cyrus XIII, May 23rd, 2006

notjake13 was refering to the article been blanked by an anon nobody bothered to revert the vandalism. - Deathrocker 07:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Could you stop these counter-productive interferences? By now it looks like you have a personal agenda to keep this article in a state several other people already agreed on being low quality (regardless of any sort of vandalism that might have occured in the meantime). So you can either start co-operating or back off and let people make some genuine improvements. Like adding a tag to draw broader attention to some evident shortcomings. - Cyrus XIII, May 23rd, 2006

Could you please stop whinging about the article and actually put forth something to it?.. you've made absolutely no effort to improve the article at all or even state which parts you feel need improving & why..

All I've seen you do is whinge on here, and make one edit to the actual article, which was ridiculous, claiming the band played "Goth rock/Nu-metal/Industrial/Pop/Shock rock".. when you seemingly have no prior knowledge of those genres. - Deathrocker 15:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Accidential rework
I started out cleaning things up a bit (redundant/hardly relevant information, bias/unnecessary grandeur, bad English) and ended up rephrasing pretty much the entire article. I guess it -is- a lot more readable and up to Wikipedia standards now though it could still use more meat between all the releases and touring. But please, it should still be more noteworthy stuff than lengthy tour names and the availability of t-shirts. An extra section about the ongoing controversy among fans regarding Dir en grey's stylistic and visual changes would be nice, the discography page could use pictures and there really has to be a way to make the tour list look less ugly. That's my todo list for the not so distant future - or anyone who reads this and likes the idea. :) - Cyrus XIII, May 26th, 2006

Congratulations to whomever rewrote this article! The aricle is much cleaner, more focused, and less biased. I am now confident in directing people to this page fo further informatoin on Dir en grey. - notjake13 13:06, 1 June 2006 (JST)

Thx notjake13, good to get some positive feedback. I outlined a few more things that would improve this and its related articles here and while we're at it, there are individual articles for all of Dir en grey's singles (!) which should just be deleted/merged with the discography. - Cyrus XIII, June 1st, 2006

Good job Cyrus, the article looks a lot better now. About the singles, I think they need more information, eg: "This single caused fans to blah blah" or "this has been the most succesful single to date... blah blah" etc. Fazz010s 04:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Just gave the tour list a makeover (unintentionally marked as a minor edit - my bad), again, the result should be less cluttered/more readable. By the way, I would really like to know why this Deathmask thing does not need the Fact tag. - Cyrus XIII, June 2nd, 2006

Another cleanup...
...mainly to reduce redundancy created by recent changes. A few words to fellow contributers: Your input is appreciated, but please, when you add something to the article, read the entire article beforehand and employ common sense about what ot add and what not.


 * If one of the subsections of Touring is titled "2006", annunal events listed there do not need to have their year added once more.
 * Tour names, especially the long ones hurt the reading flow of the History section and do not improve it.
 * Same goes for Kanji, or anything else written in an Asian alphabet. This is an article of the English Wikipedia after all.
 * And if you feel like adding such characters, in one of the other sections, please ensure that they're in proper UTF8.

Also, I cleaned up the lineup section, opting for the singer's birth name as mentioned in his own article.

- Cyrus XIII, June 10th, 2006

Article seems biased
I was reading the Dir en grey article, and it seems overly biased, as written by an obsessed fan. - 66.153.232.185, July 30th, 2006

Feel free to improve it. I must admit some curiosity though, what content actually qualifies to be "overly biased" and "obsessed" after the article's recent makeovers. I took the liberty (hopefully to no one's offense) to chronologically order this discussion page. - Cyrus XIII, August 9th, 2006

Regarding names
...of the Band members in the lineup section. Some kids seem to insist that here or more generally in articles concerning Japanese bands the western naming scheme for people (first name followed by family name) does not apply, even though it is common for most western literature about anything/anyone Japanese including the English Wikipedia itself. Some examples: Junichiro Koizumi, Shinji Ikari, Nobuo Uematsu

In the past, people often complained about this article reading like a fan site, complete with bias and a touch of elitism. The Japanese naming scheme (family name followed by first name), a lot of Kanji and the full capitalization of whatever other name or title that might have stumbled into the article (like the supposed previous bandname that has lacked a citation for months by now) does not help. Quite the opposite, actually. - Cyrus XIII, August 16th, 2006

Genre
I hope I'm not out of line in saying this but I really wish people would stop changing the genre to "Japanese rock", "J-rock" and "Visual Kei". Rock is rock no matter where it comes from so I don't believe "Japanese rock" certifies as a true genre of it's own, same goes for J-rock, which I'm pretty sure is a fan-created term anyway and "visual Kei" is a style of dressing which many bands of many different genres take on, it does not count as a genre of music. ~SpatulaGeekGirl

I agree with you in so far that the term Japanese rock (and its abbrevation J-Rock) does not say much about the music apart from
 * it is some form of rock music
 * peformed by people from Japan
 * and probably with Japanese lyrics

There isn't really anything more defining about the term and same goes for Visual Kei, which as you said is about the look of the band. (I'd love to see people contesting these assesments by explaining the miriads of smilarities between Luna Sea's "Rosier" and Malice Mizer's "Hakai No Hate" to me.)

But since Japanese rock just happens to apply to what Dir en grey are doing (though their Visual Kei days are indeed pretty much over), we might as well stick with it. I've already been going at lengths all over Wikipedia to replace J-Rock with its spelled out counterpart, in order to present readers with a more sober/scientific/encyclopedic genre handle, that is less coined by a given fanbase. I'd welcome any help I can get with that. - Cyrus XIII, 10:02, September 5th 2006 (CET)

Thinning out the ext. links
Let's try not to put anything even remotely connected with this band into the link section, shall we?

Festivals they happen to play at should not be there as well as sites in Japanese that when compared to sites already linked feature no additional (Free-Will Japan) or redundant or outdated information (SunKrad). Also I see no harm in directly linking to the related artist's section on the external site, since this is what someone coming from this article will most likely be browsing to anyway. Also re-ordered was the labels section in the info box, which now lists the two companies primarily credited on Deg releases first, with secondary distributers listed in alphabetic order after that.

- Cyrus XIII, 11:41, September 6th 2006 (CET)

TOUR06 INWARD SCREAM in Discography
Recently, the user CLEVER SLEAZOID made a page for the bootlegged audio rip of TOUR06 INWARD SCREAM at the Budokan last August.

Does any of you think that should be added to the Discography?

-AKnot

I Wouldn't say so. Apart from the relatively short period of time between now and the next album and/or official live release, this bootleg will hold very little significance, if any at all. Plus it has never been released through any traditional channels, the audio quality is so bad, it is hard to even recognize previously released songs and the titles for new songs given in the article's track list are likely to be made up by the bootlegger or other fans along the way. - Cyrus XIII, 8:08, September 9th 2006 (CET)

Is the Touring section necessary?
I'd like to propose the removal of the Touring section for the following reasons: Please express your opinion in the Survey subsection and vote with either delete or keep.
 * The information provided here is likely to be very trivial to most readers. That the band has done quite a bit of touring over the years can be easily grasped from the History section.
 * The section is a carbon copy of a similar listing on the band's official site, apart from very little additional information.
 * This information (about which DVD given tour or concert is featured on) would fare better on the discography page.
 * Few other band-related articles on Wikipedia feature a similar listing, the only one I could find being about The Rolling Stones, which is not only far more detailed in general, there are also extensive articles on some of their tours.

Regards

- Cyrus XIII, 20:02, September 10th 2006 (CET)

Survey
Even though I started the touring section long ago, I don't think it's really needed within the page since it's in the official site; people can just go to the official site and look at the timeline section there. So in conclusion, delete.

-AKnot 9/11/06 10:55AM US PST

Conclusion
Even though participation has been low, the proposal has been pending for five days and the vote is unanimous. Information not included in the official site's timeline has already been added to the articles about the individual live DVDs, the last revision of this page containing the Touring section may be found here here. - Cyrus XIII, 21:41, September 15th 2006 (CET)

About genre adding...
To everyone (including IP contributors), Dir en grey has been changing into different genres within their career; so finding their specific genre is difficult. But it's known they are part of Japanese rock. So please don't add genres (including former ones) like what happened to the recent edits by 207.106.123.38. It only causes some confusion.

Update
There was another recent edit in which someone added a genre not familer to Dir en grey. Please take that into consideration... If you still didn't catch that, don't add genres unknown to Dir en grey.

AKnot 00:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Death Metal
Does Dir en Grey qualify as Death Metal. I'm not exactly sure what Death Metal is (even after a wiki description) so only someone who listens to it is qualifies to say "sure is" or "not quite." Though from what I've been seeing of their new videos on YouTube my guess is going towards "sure is." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.236.220 (talk)


 * I can see what you mean, but death metal also shares a few characteristics with metalcore, which is already covered by the article. - Cyrus XIII 18:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think they are. They don't sound like Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse, Deicide, Suffocation, Death or whatever. Dir en grey seem to fall in more of the nu-metal/alt metal with elements from the metalcore genres. They can be deathcore (death metal and metalcore crossover), but they seem to lack some of the qualities like the technical-like musicianship and maybe the vocal approach; if they are, Kyo would be killing his voice with pig squeals. They had a minor thrash metal element in Macabre's Rasetsukoku if you wanted to know. NaotoATG 04:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Fan links?
When the Dir en grey wiki came about til now, people have been adding fan links (not including the community and lyric site(s)). Does anybody think this wiki should have fan links at all?

AKnot 00:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I removed the Keloid Milk fan link til further responses and such.


 * Links to online communities and lyric pages are not that uncommon on Wikipedia and especially the latter fulfills a purpose here, considering this band relies primarily on Japanese (= non-English) lyrics. But that's really as far as linking to unofficial websites should go, lest every musicians article becomes a link aggregator for fansites. Btw, I removed the link to the German site as it has not been updated since May. - Cyrus XIII 16:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Group Picture Update?
After recently looking at Dir en grey's new look on their official web site, does anybody think the wiki should have that current look as their group pic? Thank you... AKnot 00:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we might as well wait until the next album is out. A new subsection for the history might make sense by then as well. - Cyrus XIII 08:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

"Real" names
I have removed all references to the supposed actual names of the band members for now. There should be no attempts to put them back in unless somebody can come up with decent sources. Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a rumor mill and that we are dealing with living people here, who certainly would not like to see misinformation about their person here. - Cyrus XIII 08:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Logo?
I uploaded their tour background logo.

Would it be fine if the logo was in the wiki (i.e. on top of group pic)?

AKnot 01:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be a neat thing to have, if Dir en grey had something used fairly coherently over the years (like Metallica or X Japan) which would qualify as logo in the sense of corporate identity. But so far, there is a different typesetting for pretty much every release and until that changes, there really isn't much sense in picking one varriation in order to have something at the top of that infobox. Like the idea though. - Cyrus XIII 12:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Definition of "Messy" CLEAN UP BANNER
The banner that noted that this section should be cleaned up has been removed I guess until I further clarify what the definition of "messy" is. Particularly what needs fixing is the syntax and the grammar of the article. For example, I will take a typical sentence style that is scattered all around the article. "This caught the attention of Yoshiki Hayashi of X Japan fame, who produced and arranged the singles of their subsequent album, Gauze, released     in 1999." Just minor things like that, I feel it needs to be more formal and not so "stylized". Dec 11 2006 12:34 xcuref1endx (UTC)


 * Apparently you are concerned about the article's style, not the grammar as stated in you original edit summary. Thanks for clearing this up. Well, if these issues are so minor, what exactly keeps you from fixing them? Delegating the task like this might very well result in the banner being removed after a while, because no one agreed with your initial complaint. I certainly do not. While an article can always be more formal, this one is still in a much better shape than many of its peers in terms of style and the subsequent NPOV. But this should not keep you from being bold. Oh and one last thing: New discussion topics go to the bottom of the page. - Cyrus XIII 09:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I fixed some of the grammar. I am not an expert on the band, but I've made some minor changes for clarity. I am new, so sorry if I missed anything up. Thanks, and I hope I helped more than I messed up! Goyston 04:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have rephrased and simplified several sentences as well and if nobody objects, I will remove the cleanup tag within a day or two. - Cyrus XIII 09:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * So what genre ARE they? I know it's not metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.175.100.35 (talk) 20:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Besides main genre adding...
What about genre adding in albums and singles?

Thoughts?

AKnot 01:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * How about a section in this article titled "Style and subject matter" which elaborates on the band's stylistic development and the content of the lyrics? This would be a lot more informative than adding individual genres to infoboxes of every release which is bound to spark lengthy discussions in several cases ("It's hard rock." - "No, I think it's metal." - "You know, it has a certain pop appeal..."). I've been meaning to start such a section for quite some time, but I never seem to get around to it. - Cyrus XIII 11:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's agreeable. After typing the question, I was thinking of that spark discussion as well. That would be a great idea! Describing them originally as a regular J-Rock band and then evolve to more of a metalcore like band. AKnot 01:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't forget that J-rock and visual kei are not music genres per se, as they really do not describe the style of music at all (except origin and outfits of the artists and maybe the language used). I'd rather use genre handles very sparsely and if any, only more common ones, in order to make the text accessible to people who are not familiar with rock music from Japan. - Cyrus XIII 09:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * All right. I might begin the section soon. AKnot 05:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. I would also need help in it to make it look perfect. I got to listen to Agitated Scream of Maggots, do you think it has some swedecore influences? AKnot 02:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I gave the section a small rewrite, limiting the number of genres mentioned, not going too much into detail (song examples) and trying to have it come a bit more directly from the music found on those records, instead of repeating stuff thrown around at web based discussions on this matter. Hope this works for the most people. Sorry about those half-a-dozen-something minor edits following the big one, I could certainly use more sleep these days.

In other news: I'm trying to come up with good tracks to take samples from, in order to illustrate the band's work with actual audio. I would say three would be well in the limits of fair use, one from Gauze, one from Kisou and one from Withering to Death. Suggestions? - Cyrus XIII 07:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Cage (Gauze), Filth (Kisou), The Final or (Withering to death.). I believe those are good suggestions. If it was possible to have more, I would also suggest Macabre (Macabre), umbrella (six Ugly), Obscure (Vulgar), and Grief (The Marrow of A Bone). AKnot 02:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Clean-up
I have removed the first sentences that was not important information, then we need some citations, for example that they were the first indie and to enter at the top 10 of the Oricon, i guess that this isn't true so X Japan entered 10 years before as you already know. Then we need also some citations for the Kyo injuries, and then i have deleted the paragraph from the line-up section, most of the bands use nickname and not their first name: Pata (Tomoaki Ishizuka) for example, or Klaha, Közi, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.184.87.104 (talk) 18:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Your edits have been reverted for the following reasons:
 * Subjects such as current or founding lineup as well as genre are deemed important enough for the first paragraph in most band-related articles on Wikipedia. After all, this paragraph is supposed to deliver a basic overview.
 * The singles X Japan released as an independent band (namely I'll Kill You and Orgasm are conspicuously absent from the group's Oricon listing.
 * The matter of stage names (or nicknames, as you call them) had already been addressed in the paragraph you removed, which was there to make the article more accessible to people not familiar with Japanese bands.
 * Other information you removed is easily verifiable through the band's official website, which is linked no less than twice in this article.
 * Please remember: While Wikipedia encourages you to be bold in updating articles, try to remain considerate at the same time (see WP:BB). - Cyrus XIII 19:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Saku video
why isnt it on the videography?Quatreryukami 19:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The videography covers video-related releases on VHS and DVD, such as concerts and music video collections. The "Saku" video and it's relation to the one for "Kodou" is actually mentioned in the notes for Average Fury and Average Psycho. - Cyrus XIII 03:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Name change
Since in Wikipedia, the names of bands are kept with their respective capitalizations, I was wondering if Dir en grey should be moved to DIERENGREY. If you notice on the latest album, the name is written this way consistently on both the cover and within the booklet. I won't move until sufficient responses have been made, but wouldn't this be considered an official name change? --Jake 22:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually Wikipedia does not always follow official capitalization, as it has a few stylistic guidelines regarding trademarks. Also, before making any wide reaching changes, I would suggest to wait and see whether there has indeed been a permanent change in spelling (Dir en grey → Direngrey). Several pages of the official website still use the variant with two spaces. - Cyrus XIII 23:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, well, as far as capitalization issues, I was speaking of how the page is titled Dir en grey rather than Dir en Grey or Dir En Grey as some places require. Thanks for your input. --24.176.1.18 14:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * If you look at the official site you will see "Dir en grey" everywhere. I don't know about the latest album, but it seems that at least the official site still uses this capitalization. --analoguedragon 19:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes please change the capitalization to Dir en grey, as their CD's, official site and merchandise have it this way as well and have done so since inception. This should be the first reference the name but the last mentioned would instead be Dir En Grey as most people who are new the band use this style. When you view their albums and you see the image of their album cover, the cover it self is written as Dir en grey. Please change all pages to this formatting. The beginning sentence on the page is misrepresenting the actual titling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.206.39.87 (talk) 15:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Separate articles for concert tours
More recently, some articles have been created to illustrate the band's individual tours. While precedents for such pages exist on Wikipedia, they usually document live efforts by bands who are arguably far more notable than Dir en grey, with internationally successful careers spanning not just barely one but several decades (like Metallica, The Rolling Stones and U2). Apart from information already covered by related articles (like this one or the those dealing with the band's extensive videography) and content copied from the official website's timeline, these articles largely rely on unsourced material. On a lesser note, some also appear to require cleanup with Wikipedia's style guidelines in mind (i.e. WP:ALBUMS).

The links to these articles from this one have been removed for the time being, until aforementioned notability, verifiability and potential copyright issues have been resolved. If someone would like to make improvements, the respective meta article can be found here: List of Dir en grey concert tours - Cyrus XIII 02:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

After reading the article in question, I agree that all problems stated exist. I would also like to say that, being most of the concerts listed have little or no data associated with them, I would even go so far as to say delete it. There's just not enough content to be considered encyclopic. Maybe I'm going too far, but that's what I think. Quatreryukami 17:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really into editing, but just wanted to say that Tour 2011 Paradox of Retaliation hasn't been noticed anywhere (according to the official website). Cheers. 37.209.147.21 (talk) 04:22, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Style and Subject Matter
Err, this sentence doesn't seem to make much sense:
 * Had certain songs up to that point already been decidedly more fast-paced, raw and aggressive than their peers, the band's music took a turn with the release of the EP Six Ugly, sporting more metal influences from then on in general.

Ambrosia- 04:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I will try to rewrite that passage tomorrow, ok? - Cyrus XIII 03:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Picture from the "Visual Kei" period.
I think it is necessary to have a picture from Dir en grey's "Visual Kei" period, as that is part of their history. For the American audience, Visual Kei is an unknown thing, and while there is a small page on it, it is better represented by an image. Does anybody have suggested images or think it to be unnecessary?

Also, so as to not clog the talk page, I'll add here that I changed the word "appearances" in the festival notation in the final paragraph, as "appearing" somewhere is different than "performing" somewhere. Example being, Ozzy Osborne appears at ever Ozzfest summer festival, but does not perform at every show.--Jake 11:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding Visual Kei, for purposes of history only, yes, but if it will be used as decoration then no. Is there a Public or Fair Use image? Quatreryukami 02:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Good point on the semantics (I was employing the word "appearance" merely for the sake of diversifying the wording). As for the visual kei thing, I believe a Gauze/Macabre era group shot would help to illustrate the band's early career, but I doubt that there is a public image available and I'm not sure whether this is an ample case for further stressing fair use for this article. - Cyrus XIII 08:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, then why don't we go the Rationale route, and get someone to write us a Copyright template for Japanese band related Pictures? Or am I being too WP:BOLD? Quatreryukami 15:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Given the current climate towards fair use content (note the recent changes to Dir en grey discography), I guess adding another copyrighted promo shot of the band just isn't the way to go. - Cyrus XIII 01:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, there seems to be a lot of anal users about this. How 'bout Fair Use? Does anyone know where to find one? I know not Wikimedia Commons (:D). Maybe some fan photos from a personal website, whats the rules for that? Quatreryukami 02:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Get the permission of the owner of the fan page or whoever took the shots. Ambrosia- 03:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Associated Acts
Should La:Sadie's or D+L be included in the "Associated Acts" section of the infobox?--Jacob 19:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No clue who D+L is, but I'm sure that La_Sadie's should be.
 * Nevermind, the article for the band now just redirects to Dir en grey. ~ Ambrosia-  talk 02:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Even though it does redirect, it should still be placed there, as not everyone knows that they are not the same band (though they very nearly are). D+L is the old band of Toshiya, he was previously in both Gosick and D+L (but most notably D+L).--Jacob 02:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The infobox manual is not specific on this, but personally, I only add acts to that field, which actually have an article of their own, in order to ease navigation for the reader, without unnecessarily bloating the box. By the way, while this might be one of those "facts" everyone knows, we probably should have a citation for La:Sadie's. - Cyrus XIII 11:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, JMusic Europa is generally a fairly accurate source, and their La:Sadie's page seems to be a good citation. There are also magazine scans that announced when La:Sadie's became Dir en grey, and the fact that Toshiya was the new member. Just a thought though, nothing necessary.--Jacob 15:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd consider JaME mostly reliable when it comes to news (since they name their sources) and interviews. Their artist profiles though strike me as no more verifiable than those on, say, ThePPN. - Cyrus XIII 17:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I can see where you're coming from there, because many of their editors are fairly opinionated.--Jacob 17:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed the "Lineup" section. Changed "the artists are credited with their first names" to GIVEN names, because in Japanese, the family name comes first. Hope nobody minds.

Exact formation date
The date of their exact formation isn't available on Wikipedia, however, it is generally accepted among fasn as February 2, 1997. I was browsing through the Yarouze magazine, which features an entire detailed history and profile of the band, and the history section includes February 2nd as a formation date. This source is in Japanese, but is as official as any other publication. Scans can be provided.--Jacob 15:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Scans would be appreciated, thanks. Do you have a publication date on that issue of the magazine? Coupled with a page number, I'd say we got ourselves a decent source then. - Cyrus XIII 18:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It is on page 23, and the publishing date is October 2, 1999. Here it is on Yahoo! Books, listed with its October publishing date, and on Amazon.co.jp, still available for purchase. Here is the cover and detail of the table of contents. The information is contained in the "Dir's HISTORY" section.--Jacob 05:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The Band's Name
I found this information on the Japanese Wikipedia. I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, nor if this has been discussed before.

Dir en greyの意は、「Dir」はドイツ語で「銀貨」、「en」はフランス語で「～の」、「grey」は英語で「灰色」を合わせ、“灰色の銀貨”という意味であるとされている. (但し、実際にはドイツ語に「Dir」という単語は存在しない)

"According to Dir en grey, 'Dir' is German for 'silver coin,' 'en' is French for 'of,' and grey is English for 'grey.' Together, it means 'a silver coin of grey.' (However, there is no such word as 'Dir' in the German language)"

Is this information indeed correct, and is it relevant to the article? The only problem I see with it is that it's unscourced. This seems to be a recurring problem on Japanese Wikipedia.

(And yes, I know 灰色の銀貨 would be less literally, "a grey silver coin." I was just translating it with "en=of" in mind (is that accurate? I don't know a lick of French))

Chibi Gohan 10:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree about the Japanese Wikipedia and I'd even go as far as saying that this reference issue is a general problem with every version in certain areas (the English one just receives more input). The only actual source we currently have on the name is the interview from that recent Spike TV show, were the band stated that the name was supposed to be a mix of languages that wasn't supposed to mean anything (beside "Dir en grey" of course). I guess that makes any attempts to translate the name in parts or as a whole rather pointless. Also I have no idea how one could translate "dir" with "silver coin". German is my native language and to my best knowledge (and Leo) these words don't have any connection. - Cyrus XIII 10:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Odd. So Dir is actually a word, but there isn't any connection to "silver coin." I suppose the "there is no such word as dir in the German language" comment was due to the Japanese editors lacking an understanding of German.

I would try to edit that out of the Japanese article, but I don't know quite enough Japanese to explain to the Japanese editors what the problem is (and, I don't really care that much :P).

Anyway, thank you for your input!

Chibi Gohan 13:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I assumed their name was a japanisation of the everyouthful Oscar Wilde character [Dorian Gray|Dorian Gray]  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.167.243.101 (talk) 00:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The band has been asked about the meaning of their name before, and they've always told interviewers that it doesn't actually mean anything. They purposely chose a name that doesn't have any real meaning behind it. I think the name of the Wiki article should be changed to "Dir en grey" without the capitalizations of the E and G. That's how it is written on their CDs, merchandise, etc. It has also been written as "DIR EN GREY", but never "Dir En Grey". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.50.12 (talk) 21:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Please see the move request at the bottom of the page. 夢  追人  YumeChaser 22:05, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Their name should ONLY be typeset as → Dir en grey ← with only the first D in capitals. This band is Japanese and they don't go by "Standard English Text Formatting", and shouldn't be threathed as an English/American band. Their name is a play on words and typset as Dir en grey and not Dir En Grey/Dir en Grey. ALL their official CD/DVD-releases has their name typeset as Dir en grey, and also all their official promotion and merchandise products, from the very beginning in 1997, same goes with their official logotype (Even in America) and official homepage. I wonder if you people who moderate this site even listen to this band? All other Wikipedia sites in other languages has them typeset as Dir en grey, why shouldn't the English/American profile do the same? Shouldn't Wikipedia have only legit information about stuff? This is not legit typsetting as it is now, and I'll be disappointed on Wikipedia if this is won't be changed into the correct typset Dir en grey. Dir en grey is correct, change it now. Thank you very much.

Killinstinct (talk) 21:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm going to start off by saying that you are obviously wrong. If you look at their official Japanese or English website (here), you don't see "Dir en grey" at all, you see "DIR EN GREY". And while some albums use the name "Dir en grey", newer ones like The Marrow of a Bone—which I own—also use "DIR EN GREY". Now I'm going to head on to my main point which is that it doesn't matter at all whatsoever if this is an American, British, or Japanese band. It only matters what language their band name is in. If it was Japanese, it would have to be capitalized following MOS:J, but since it's not, and since there's no real language that the band name is in, we use standard capitalization rules. Again, please read MOS:TM. mx3  話  23:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * No, I know because they are using DIR EN GREY as an additional typesetting since 2007. ALL their stuff from 1997→2007 has officially been Dir en grey, they started using DIR EN GREY as an additional style on DOZING GREEN single in 2007 and has been DIR EN GREY since then. I have been a fan of this band since 2002 and they have NEVER (yes, NEVER) used Dir En Grey. As I said before, Why do you keep accepting bob hund to be bob hund on the English Wikipedia, but not Dir en grey to be typset as Dir en grey?? That make no sense at all for me. Stop bitching about this English Standard-rule, because their name is not English!! I want to hear your other arguments, because that only English Standard-rule is not good enough, give me your other arguments. Killinstinct (talk) 23:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd just like to pitch in my two cents and say I would approve of and support Killinstinct's proposed name change and changing of typesetting as well, since, he's right, this isn't an American or British band, it's a Japanese band, and it was Dir en grey's intent to have their name typeset as "Dir en grey" and more recently "DIR EN GREY" instead of "Dir en Grey" or "Dir En Grey". It isn't Wikipedia's right to say how the band's name is typeset, it's theirs. In addition, capitalizing it with Standard English Text Formatting is incorrect and can mislead new fans of the band, which defeats the purpose of Wikipedia, which is to provide correct information. (bring on the flames) Arashi nightmare (talk) 03:23, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

MySpace removed.
Recently, the MySpace was hacked by an anonymous person and this was proven with a bulletin. It will (or already) be removed until further notice. NaotoATG 02:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Free Will
The arrests of Free Will officials has everything to do with Dir en grey, the money was used defrauded using Dir en grey (and other bands) as an excuse, and was used to fund costs for bands signed to the label. Including tours, music videos, producing their records, and so on. 219.90.229.216 06:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

International Success
A list of Japanese musicians with success outside Asia. There are many more, but this list is big enough, and features musicians from many genres.

Stop writing that Dir en grey is one of the few, or notable Japanese musicians to have international success.

Akiko Yano, Yellow Magic Orchestra, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Pizzicato Five, Murahachibu, Tatsuro Yamashita, Kazumi Watanabe, Joji Hirota, Vow Wow, Sadistic Mika Band, Char, Boredoms, Hiroshi Fujiwara, Mute Beat, Toshinobu Kubota, Tokyo Ska Paradaise Orchestra, Hi-Standard, Eikichi Yazawa, Seiji Ozawa, Akira Jimbo, Denki Groove, Thee Michelle Gun Elephant, Kako Takashi, The Stalin, Lisa Ono, The Street Sliders, Buffalo Daughter, United Future Organization, Anzen Chitai, Cornelius, Loudness, Kyu Sakamoto, Dj Krush, Godiego, Fishmans, Zeebra, Keiko Matsui. 122.49.157.149 10:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Firstly, I think you are missing the point of the statement at hand. The article just says they are among the musicians that have gained success, not that they are "one of the few" or that it is uncommon. This is relevant, as internationally successful artists (especially in hard rock and metal) are uncommon. This is why bands like Rammstein are so widely known for not only being talented, but for being a foreign band.


 * Secondly, many of the artists you list above are not mainstream successes, they are merely famous in their niche followings. If one were to ask most punk rock fans who The Stalin are, many would not have the first clue. Those are are extremely into Japanese hardcore though, they would know immediately. They are a niche success. Others listed are just small artists. You cannot base international recognition solely on a small singular factor such as selling records in foreign countries and having done a few small non-domestic shows. --Jacob Talk 15:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you research some of those musicians, because what you wrote is nonsense! The only thing Dir en grey has achieved, is a few non-domestic shows, and a few non-domestic album releases. They are not internationally influential like many other Japanese musicians. Internationally successful artists are not uncommon, and Japan has its fair share of world famous musicians. Yoji Biomehanika has achieved more international success than Dir en grey, why isn't he a "notable" Japanese musician? 122.49.157.149 16:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Why don't you take initiative and make mention of that on Wikipedia. This is not a page for making complaints about other artists. You fail to mention the true influentials too, like Tomoyasu Hotei and Yoko Kanno. Please take your arguments to other pages if they pertain to other topics. --Jacob Talk 16:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Cyrus XIII said "surely you can present sufficient sources for your allegations" and you said "definition on world wide success varies"

I provided a small list of Japanese musicians with international success (as previously stated, there are many more) most of their biographies will detail their success.

Many of them are included in HMV's list of the top 100 Japanese musicians. http://www.hmv.co.jp/news/newsDetail.asp?newsnum=311040091

Please explain, why being internationally respected, pioneering, influential, and so on, is only a niche success?

Now explain, why Dir en grey has "notable" success, and is "among" the Japanese musicians with notable success.

Since their record label stole money to fund European and US operations, the article should be updated to include that information. 122.49.157.149 17:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

editprotected

Request this information, and source be added to the article.

On September 14 2007, the president of their record label was arrested for defrauding an advertising agency in 2001 of almost US$3 million, by making it look like the agency had recieved orders to produce music videos for bands signed to the label.

Source: http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/418315

The source evidently mentions Dir en grey, and comes from one of Japan biggest news companies. 122.49.149.115 07:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Note for administrator: the above "editprotected" request does not have consensus and appears to be related to the edit-warring that caused this page to be protected. --Parsifal Hello 10:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This information is relevant to the article, and has a reliable source. It is kept sort and to the point. 219.90.180.76 14:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * ❌ for now. Please replace the editprotected template once there is a consensus in support. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Pictures and Videos
Kaoru and Shinya don't have pictures but the other three members do. I don't have any but maybe someone should put one up...

Also other artists have a 'Video' section in their singles, saying what the videos show... does anyone else think they would be a good idea?Im-All-Ears 13:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * So far, I couldn't find any decent, free images of those two members (I do a Flickr search for potential Wikipedia material every few weeks) and apparently the current climate regarding copyrighted (= fair use) images on Wikipedia does not favor the use of such media to illustrate articles on individual celebrities.


 * I'm not sure about music video summaries as they could easily drift off into interpretation (= original research). If any were to be added, I'd put them into the articles about the music video collections (as a track listing replacement), rather than adding a small section into each single-related article. - Cyrus XIII 02:20, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic content/original research/news release/misinterpreted citations
This article needs cleaning up, to meet the Wikipedia guidelines and standards.

The sections; "2007: The Marrow of a Bone" and "Style and subject matter" need attention.

A list of sentences that need removal, or rewording; in order of appearance.


 * As of 2007, they have released six full-length records and are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America.


 * While the group's lineup has remained consistent since its inception, numerous stylistic changes have made its music's genre difficult to determine (though it is generally considered to be a form of rock music)


 * They first attracted mainstream attention in 1998


 * would later become the first of several live concerts to be released on VHS and DVD.


 * tours in support for the record would last well into 2004.


 * Becoming more involved with the international music scene,


 * and Internet file-sharing only.


 * As with numerous other Japanese bands


 * While there has been speculation among fans, the artists' full names are not a matter of public knowledge.

This is an encyclopedia, and nothing else. —The preceding comment signed as by 122.49.135.245 (talk • contribs) was actually added by Jun kaneko (talk • contribs) - 00:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * , after carefully weighing WP:AGF against your previous track record,    I have to conclude that I'm not even going to consider any of this crap. - Cyrus XIII 02:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea of what you wrote Cyrus XIII, but I'm taking it as an insult, and assuming bad faith on your part. According to the Wikipedia guidelines; this is not "crap" and needs to be corrected. Edit: Please read the following policy Civility. This is a friendly warning, as you may of been unaware of this. — Preceding comment signed as by 122.49.135.245 (talk • contribs) actually added by Jun kaneko (talk • contribs) 02:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Cyrus XIII, please read the following policy, WP:ICA. I do not appreciate your behaviour. — Preceding comment signed as by 122.49.135.245 (talk • contribs) actually added by Jun kaneko (talk • contribs) 03:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Article cleanup
I addressed some minor problems myself, but a couple of issues still remain.

' Unencyclopedic:' As of 2007, they have released six full-length records.

Unencyclopedic and misinterpreted citations: are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America.

' Original research:' While the group's lineup has remained consistent since its inception, numerous stylistic changes have made its music's genre difficult to determine (though it is generally considered to be a form of rock music).

Original research, which had no link to a reference: According to guitarist Kaoru, the name "Dir en grey" was chosen because it "sounded right," and is comprised of words from several languages, so that people would not be able to attach a specific meaning to it other than that the band's name itself.

Reworded: One of the shows in support for the album...

Original research: Becoming more involved with the international music scene

Removed the statement: internet file-sharing only.

Removed irrelevance: along with bands such as Megadeth, Slayer and Children of Bodom.

The section "2007: The Marrow of a Bone" needs attention, because it is becoming a section devoted to news release. And the section "Style and subject matter" needs much attention, as it contains too much original research, someone with more knowledge on the subject please reword it, or find references to add to it. Saguy1982 21:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for summarizing your concerns. I replied to your first edit at the AN/I post, and will include a note here as well.


 * I strongly suggest that you review the Wikipedia policies WP:Verifiable and WP:Original research. In this diff of your edit to Dir en gray, you used this edit summary:


 * (Minor article fixes. Original research and nencyclopedic content removed. Two sections still need work. Note on talk page)


 * However, your edit removed three completely solid reliable sources that support the content of the text you removed. For example you removed this text from the section about their tour success: " Again, all shows sold out within days.''", and you removed the Wired magazine news article footnote that clearly stated in detail how fast the shows sold out.


 * You removed this phrase from the intro of the article:


 * "As of 2007, they have released six full-length records."


 * In your comment above, you describe that as "Unencyclopedic. That statement was directly supported by two reliable source references that you also removed, which is inappropriate.  And what exactly is unencyclopedic about stating how many albums they've released?


 * If you think the references do not support what the text shows, then quote the reference on the talk page and show the editors there how you see the reference being misinterpreted. I've read those references myself and they seem correct.  There is no reason to remove them.  If you want to debate about that, do so on the talk page; but please do not remove sources without discussion.


 * Regarding some of your other notes above:


 * Unencyclopedic and misinterpreted citations: are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America. - Please quote the text of the citation you believe is misinterpreted, and tell us what your interpretation is, so we can form consensus about how to paraphrase the source for the article.

The reference mentions nothing of the sort. Saguy1982 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Removed irrelevance: along with bands such as Megadeth, Slayer and Children of Bodom. - I don't see this as irrelevant.  It's information about the context of their performance and the other bands that they work with.  And it is specifically supported by the references.  As a subjective content decision regarding reliably sourced information, this requires consensus to remove it.  Please do not revert again, and instead, discuss it further here, to see if other editors agree with you about removing it.

This is an article about the band Dir en grey, it is not about who performed at the particular performance. It has no relevance to this article. Saguy1982 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Original research, which had no link to a reference: According to guitarist Kaoru, the name "Dir en grey" was chosen because it "sounded right," and is comprised of words from several languages, so that people would not be able to attach a specific meaning to it other than that the band's name itself. - this is specifically covered in the blistering.com intgerview with Dir en grey.  If there is a problem with the reference, fix it, don't remove the text.

The reference linked to that statement was not present. It was a date, and a link to a Fuse TV Wiki article. Saguy1982 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The other information in the lead paragraph was written in the first reference, which was incorrectly placed. It has been restored. Saguy1982 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest you read and follow WP:CONSENSUS and Bold, revert, discuss. --Parsifal Hello 22:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I made an edit, and mentioned in the summary that there are notes on the talk page. There is nothing wrong with that Parsifal.

My edits have some merit, and some were wrong (and have been corrected) mostly they are minor insignificant details, so its nothing to get upset about, when the main goal is to improve the article.

The main problems left, are the "2007" section is becoming a news release, and needs attention by someone with more knowledge on the subject. And the "Style and subject matter" which contains too much original research, and either needs reworking, or references. Update: I also thank you Parsifal, for reworking the mistakes, but leaving edits which had merit. Saguy1982 22:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not consense your repeated removal of the Grammy association reference, and regarding the interview reference that you say was not present, I already told you the link was incorrect, and I told you which one is the correct one. I suggested that you fix the text and reference rather than removing them.  I also suggested that you read several policies and guidelines about how to form consensus.  You have not shown that you've done so.


 * Your interthreading of your comments between mine has confused the conversation. Please read WP:TALK and learn how to format conversations on talk pages.  Thanks.  --Parsifal Hello 23:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * [I've added indentation colons to the following to clarify the threads; the original post by Saguy1982 was not indented and merged into the subsequent post by  Cyrus XIII --Parsifal Hello 09:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)]


 * If the grammy reference has relevance to any sentence, then re-add it to the sentence it has relevance to. The other reference was re-added, and placed correctly at the sentence for which it is a citation. If there is a reference for the meaning of "Dir en grey", please re-add that information with its verifiable source. These changes are not significant as the article is well written, but they helped improve the article to be more encyclopedic. That is after-all what the Wikipedia is, and nothing else. Saguy1982 07:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Look - you removed the Grammy reference, so why are you asking me to re-add it? You say "IF" it "has relevance to any sentence" to re-add it...  When you removed it, did you even bother to read it?  I did, and I see the relevance.  Now, since you removed it please restore it to the appropriate place.  If you don't think it's a valid source to support the content, then please explain your objection.  Why should I go and dig through it to prove to you what it says, when it was already properly placed in the article before you deleted it?


 * Regarding your note about the reference for the meaning of the band name, you can read the blister.com article as well as I can, so please don't ask me to do you work for you. You removed references and messed up the article.  if you want to edit Wikipedia, that involves careful work of reviewing the references and making sure they go with the proper text.  Just glancing at them and issuing complaints or adding tags is not helpful.  If you want to make the article better, then read the references and place them in the article where the content correctly applies.  If you are not interested in doing that kind of work, then stop complaining and stop removing content from articles.  Thanks. --Parsifal Hello 08:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The grammy reference had no relevance to the sentence it was added to, in fact I had to move the other reference to place it where it should be. The reference for the meaning of the bands name was not the blitzring interview, and that reference was not added to that sentence as a citation when it should of been. If you are aware of small problems with the article, and know how to fix them, then you should fix them before they become issues. Instead of being rude to other people who are trying to improve the article. Saguy1982 09:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you want to improve the article, then show us. Here is the text from the interview you said does not include the meaning of the band's name:


 * Blistering: When researching your band's name we found a site that said Dir En Grey loosely translates to "into the grey." Is that the meaning? And if so, why did you choose this name? 


 * Kaoru: We have never thought of the meaning of our band name as being “inside the grey.” At the time we chose the band name, it had some meaning but right now it doesn’t express the band anymore, so it has come to not mean anything specific. We chose the band name because it sounded right, and it also reflects an image that probably doesn’t exist elsewhere.


 * So, what is your intention here? You've come into this article like a bull in a china shop with all sorts of strong opinions, removing references and making claims that there are problems.  If you think there are problems, by all means fix them.  Other editors don't owe it to you to do you work for you.  If you want to make the article better, please do.  But demanding that others make changes, when you are not willing to do the research, is not appropriate.  Now, I've shown you the content of the reference as it applies to the name of the band. Please make the improvements that you have said are so important to you.


 * With the grammy reference, what problem did you see with that? What text did you think was not supported by that reference?  I know what the article states, and I know what it was supporting in the article.  Do you?  If not, shortly, I assume Cyrus will re-add that reference.  But if he doesn't, eventually I will.  It would be better for you to do it, to show us that you actually want to collaborate and not edit-war. So here is your chance to show good faith.  --Parsifal Hello 09:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I never said that, in fact you are refusing to listen to what I have said. Take a look at the edit history Parsifal. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dir_en_grey&diff=169234314&oldid=169086907 Where is the blistering reference for that sentence? Show it to me, because when I look at that, I see a unverifiable reference for Fuse TV. Looking at the Grammy reference, tell me where the citation is for this sentence. "As of 2007, they have released six full-length records and are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America." Tell everyone what it is referencing Parsifal, because that is the line it was connected to. What is the citation Parsifal? You stated you know little about this topic, but you seem to have in-depth knowledge of the article, and its references. Please be more civil with your discussions and look at the history log. Furthermore, please point out, where I said that the blistering interview does not include that information, please tell me, because I'm very interested in knowing how come I can't remember. Saguy1982 19:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've not said anything about the Fuse reference. What I said is, if you care about improving the article rather than simply disrupting it, you can fix the material instead of removing it by adding the reference from blistering.com that I quoted for you above.  Of course, I am capable of making that correction myself, but I am offering this to you, as a chance for you to show that you want to collaborate rather than fight.


 * So, please, restore the paragraph about the meaning of the band's name - and make improvements if you think they are needed - and use the blistering.com interview quote I quoted above as the footnote. That way, we can have a cleanly referenced paragraph about the meaning of the band's name, and at the same time, you can improve our working relationship, by showing that your intention is not to disrupt and antagonize and that you intend to collaborate in a way that respects the work of others.


 * Regarding the sentence you asked about: "As of 2007, they have released six full-length records and are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America."  -- the six album releases don't need a reference because they are listed in the related Discography article that is linked from the Discography section in this article, and each album already has entire separate Wikipedia articles as well with detailed information. The success in Europe and America is discussed in the both the Grammy article and the All Music Guide article.  The Grammy report title is Visual kei artists from Japan invade Germany and set sights on America and it's full of descriptions of sold-out shows and big tours, by this band and other Japanese bands, just as the sentence states.  The All Music Guide states that "They toured Europe and sold out shows everywhere they went based on nothing more than word of mouth. When they played the United States in March 2006... the band sold out large venues in Los Angeles and New York as well."


 * What's not clear here is, why did you need me to explain this to you? How were you able to read those references and not notice that they are reporting that this band is successful and notable, in both Europe and the USA?  The support of these reliable references is clear and unambiguous, so in what way did you see them as a problem?  Please show us your friendly collaborative spirit, and explain what problem you found when you read the sources?


 * If you want to collaborate and improve Wikipedia articles, please do. If that's not what you want, then what is your purpose here? --Parsifal Hello 20:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * No Parsifal. That lead paragraph line is unencyclopedic, and it is a rather inane statement. They toured parts of Europe and the United States, so what! Details of tours are already mentioned in the history section. You are the one that noticed the blistering interview had a citation for the meaning of the bands name. It is you who should re-add that information with the correct reference, as you are the person who discovered it. It has nothing to do with me, or my good faith. The original statement was removed because it sounded like original research and the reference link was invalid. Your attitude is most unwelcome Parsifal. You are behaving like a child. Saguy1982 21:34, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The sections "2007" and "subject and style" still need attention, maybe you or Cyrus XIII could fix them, since I have no knowledge on this band, and how to proceed on editing those sections. The "2007" section is becoming an area for new release, and the other section either needs reworking or citations, which you seem to be good at providing. My previous edits have merits, and I corrected a mistake. A mistake that was justified because the reference was in the wrong spot. A problem you knew existed but never fixed. Maybe you should try to improve the article Parsifal, instead of twisting events to curse other editors, particularly myself. You seem to have another reason for posting, other than to improve this article. It is quite childish. Saguy1982 21:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Parsifal already pointed out several problems with the recent changes, I'd like to add a few thoughts:

The question whether the group's international success should be mentioned in the lead, in the context of their nationality has already come up only recently, resulting in an edit war and temporary article protection, but also a consensus to be keep it. Back then, editor compared Dir en grey with Rammstein, as neither German nor Japanese musical acts who have archived international mainstream success are exactly a dime a dozen. The sources the respective line in the lead was presented with specifically pointed out this novelity.

On a side note, for the sake of context, the IP based editor who felt so strongly about the alleged inappropriateness of the line in question, identified himself as in the aftermath of the earlier dispute/edit war/article lock, a person Saguy1982 now denies to be.

Regarding the Fuse TV source: If we were to expect all references used on Wikipedia to be readily available on the web, citing non-digital media, such as books would become quite impossible. For what it counts, the respective interview is easy enough to find on YouTube and while we do not accept this venue itself as a reliable source (for the obvious reason, that it is user-edited), citing the Fuse TV feature directly is entirely appropriate.

That all being said, I have yet to see a compelling rationale for any of the changes made since the article's October 31 revision. - Cyrus XIII 00:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Cyrus, thanks for your comments, I concur with all of them. In addition, FYI, the blistering.com interview has a text paragraph about the origin and meaning of the bands name too.   --Parsifal Hello 00:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

That might be your opinion Cyrus XIII, but that doesn't necessarily mean its true. In regards to the lead paragraph statement, and Fuse TV. I don't see any "novelty" about the band being Japanese. The same applies to German musicians. In fact, two of my favorite bands are German and Japanese. They are Enigma and the Flower Traveling Band. According to Amazon UK, the Flower Traveling Band remains quite popular. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anywhere-Flower-Travellin-Band/dp/B000MQ50DY/ref=pd_sbs_b_shvl_img_3/203-4420607-7101513 I can think of many other German and Japanese bands with success outside their markets, but that is not the point. It is unencyclopedic, and this is an encyclopedia. And I don't agree that a reference that everyone can't verify should be added, but it appears Parsifal has an interview source for that information, so it no longer matters. Thanks Saguy1982 08:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Um, that release is clearly marked as an import, meaning that it is not even regularly stocked by Amazon.co.uk and also has no review by the Amazon staff - how is this supposed to assert international success? In the Amazon branches around the globe, you will find imported items for hundreds of artists who never had any actual domestic releases in the respective markets. If it becomes commonplace, that Japanese bands release several of their albums across three continents, along with singles, home video releases, sold out concert tours and appearances at major festivals, than the phrasing in question should probably be revised. Until then, it remains relevant and as Parsifal pointed out above, the available references sufficiently support it. - Cyrus XIII 21:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Cyrus XIII, that is a rather asinine form of logic. And being a fan of world music, I know there are in-fact lots of Japanese musicians with the above "achievements" if you can call it that. I believe most of this groups releases would be imports as well. As are many CDs in record stores in almost every nation. Update: And no, the reference doesn't really support it, nor is it acceptable for the Wikipedia. The Flower Travellin' band also has non-Japanese releases of their albums, and toured the US and Europe during their active years. So what! Saguy1982 22:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * So off you go, adding those interesting facts to the Flower Travellin' Band article. Regarding this discussion, well, given that you have taken to provide your fellow editors with personal attacks, rather than compelling arguments, you have obviously not generated any support for your proposed changes to this article's previous revision. Hence it will now be reverted to its October 31 version, with minor adjustments, such as reusing the Blistering reference for the naming passage (in addition to the Fuse TV source) and a little streamlining of the 2007 section. And by the way, if you seriously want people to believe that you are not, drop this annoying habit of constantly revising earlier talk page comments. It might get you under suspicion of foul play, I'm sure you don't want that. - Cyrus XIII 23:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing really wrong with the article, apart from those two small sections that I hope someone will fix. This is becoming a long and tiresome matter, over such a simple thing. And I don't really see a need for my input any further. Please try to keep this article encyclopedic. Good luck Saguy1982 22:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

International recognition section
I don't think we need a separated section for "International recognition"...it could be merged to the "History" section, I believe.Victao lopes (talk) 21:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There's been a high degree of disagreement on including this in the introductory paragraph in the article, and as it is not a specific event, it's hard to place it in the history section. The fact that they are popular overseas isn't really a time-line event. --Jacob Talk 22:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, I understand...but, is this section really important? I mean...there are so many J-bands enjoying overseas popularity, but their articles don't have these statements. Will it really generate a discussion if we decide just to briefly mention it in the introductory paragraph?Victao lopes (talk) 23:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the degree of mainstream success, outside of the typical Japanese culture is what is notable. There aren't many Japanese bands that can break free of their cult status. Having this in the introductory paragraph caused issues with some other users in the past, and having it as a small paragraph at the end seems to have pleased most users involved with the article, if you don't feel it necessary, maybe other users will agree with you. We should wait for other editors' input here. --Jacob Talk 06:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * OK.Victao lopes (talk) 18:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

With Victao lopes' concerns in mind, I've merged said section into the lead and toned down the "they made it big somewhere else too!" aspect of it. The Billboard quote actually turned out to make a fairly decent finish for the introduction. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 23:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Fanclub Information??
I'm not sure if this would be relevant to what is on Wikipedia under Dir en grey, but what about a section for A-Knot? I do realise that, as a fanclub, it is not the actual band, nor does wikipedia approve of promotion of organizations, but I think a small secion on A-Knot would be nice. Let the people know that there is a fanclub for those who live in Japan, not to mention the support of the fanclub for the band. Just an idea? Vul~Gar~Den (talk) 00:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe you could just put the link in the "External links" section. But I strongly recommend you to wait for other editors' opinions.Victao lopes (talk) 02:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It's been discussed before, and it's difficult to find relevancy for it. The only thing that is really important is the fan club-only releases, and those are already mentioned in the discography/videography sections. A lot of information about A Knot is also not sourced, and is only based on original research. A link the in the external links may be useful, but it will only direct to another portion of the Official site, which is already linked. --Jacob Talk 12:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hm, okay. I was just wondering because I was getting questions about it myself. Thank you for answering my question. Since the Official Site is already linked, I won't worry about it. Thank you again! Vul~Gar~Den (talk) 19:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Not a problem, thank you for using the talk page and being generally considerate. This article often overflows with controversy. --Jacob Talk 20:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Ads
Under each of the members own seperate articals it looks like a giant Ad for ESP Guitars. i think someone should at least tone it down. Im to lazy to fix or leave a notice under every article so I'll leave it here. Setsuka13 —Preceding comment was added at 02:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Notable
Notable - as an english word, means "Worthy of note or notice; remarkable." So if Dir en Grey has had remarkable sucess in the United States, that would mean a pretty big success. I would call the words "notable success" to be weasel words in this case - neither notable or success have clear definitions in the context of the article. What is really meant is "some success that can be documented" but it comes out sounding like they are huge in the US. I think it would be more appropriate to say they have a dedicated but small fanbase, or have found a nitch market, and are continuing to grow which would be more accurate. Denaar (talk) 01:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In my point of view, "notable success" here means "quite a big success considering that they sing in Japanese and that they are used to having succes only in Japan", and not "they are on the Billboard Top 10". Maybe this idea is not so explicit, though...Victor Lopes (talk) 01:57, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly, "notable" in the simple sense of the (American, European) press taking note, similar to the way we are benchmarking notability on Wikipedia. Notable success is also a lot easier to assert and quantify than "minor" or "major" success were in the case of musicians the scale may range from well received club tours to stadium-shaking events. – Cyrus XIII (talk) 16:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * We really need to remove that they are "sucessful" - you can't define "sucess." Notable sucess, in English, implies something that everyone is taking note of - something that is popular. It isn't something that can be documented for or against.  It is an opinion - that is why it does not belong in a wikipedia article.  It destroys the NPOV of the article and makes them seem bigger than they are.  Figure out a different or better wording - but it needs to be changed into something more NPOV. Denaar (talk) 02:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The disagreement here is all in the word "notable". Now, to hopefully be the voice of reason; I see where both of you are placing your arguments. On Denaar's side, the word notable often has a different connotation in casual, American English speaking. It usually implies something is really important, and if one is not involved in underground music often (I'm going out on a limb to assume Denaar listens more to mainstream rock than the most underground stuff like jazzcore and goregrind) then it would be assumed that "notable" means on par with "mainstream" or "popular", just by common use. On Cyrus's side, the word "notable" is used in the literal translation (sorry, it's not Wikipedia jargon, it is just a very straightforward breakdown of the word, and that's how Wikipedia uses it as well), as in the artist is worthy of being noted. Now, in this case, their success is noted in the lead paragraph, hence it cannot be argued that the success is notable. On the issue of success, they have achieved mainstream success by turning profit with records and charting on the United States Billboard charts. That is by all means an indicator of at least the smallest degree of success. I think the article is fine as it stands, however if true synonymic words are put in place to make the argument more satisfying to American English speakers, and encyclopedic, literal editors, I would say it is worth a trial, but should be discussed before implementation occurs. "Major" or "minor" are not on par with "notable", as "major" and "minor" are scaling adjectives, and those should generally be avoided without extremely reliable citation. I hope this can resolve some of the dispute. Thanks! --Jacob Talk 04:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A friend of mine suggested "has begun to see cross over success" as a wording choice. I think that better states what was originally intended by the sentence - that while they are not mainstream they have been more successful than the media (specifically billboard) would have expected.  Frankly they have had such a die-hard fanbase for so long I'm not sure why any one would be surprised with what they have done.  Notable as a word means "worthy of notice" - but by whom?  Therein lies the issue, something being notable is an opinion.  Wikipedia specifically defines notability as being noted by published sources, but I could call a red button on a shirt rather notable and be correct.  PS - Your assertion of my musical tastes was incorrect, but I admit I do not listen to music specifically for the purpose of sounding pretentious. Denaar (talk) 03:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Gothic/death metal influence?
I thought I'd bring this up with a source I've found:. Not sure if it can be used but it would be interesting to cover their gothic and death metal influences to their music. I do not wish to be pulled into the discussion so I'll let you people decide if you want to use it and or continue searching for sources on this. FireCrystal (talk) 21:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think this is typical of MTV, labeling anything less cheery than bubblegum-pop to be "gothic-" or "death-" or "black-" because they simply don't cater to an audience that cares. I'm hard-pressed to find much in Dir en grey's music that qualifies as "gothic", and there really are no other reputable sources which reinforce the idea. I'd say it's just apathy on MTV's end. --Jacob Talk 21:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Gauze = hardcore punk?
Someone changed the line in the style and subject matter section from "Some tracks of their debut album Gauze also demonstrated a distinct pop appeal..." to "Some tracks of their debut album Gauze also demonstrated a distinct hardcore punk appeal...".

I'm not sure if I should change that back to 'pop'. XShurikenx (talk) 20:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with the original sentence and changed it back Denaar (talk) 17:47, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Flamboyant
We'll ignore the fact that Withering to Death was listed by a Japanese magazine as one of the top 12 Visual Kei albums of all time because Dir en Grey's is still concept oriented, and Visual bands are focused on concept, but I agree they have toned down their attire over time. I removed the term "flamboyant" to a more neutral term because flamboyant is slang for "gay" in the US. Please look at Urban Dictionary or our own Wikipedia: Flamboyant_(disambiguation): Flamboyant is a potentially pejorative adjective for LGBT people, or those perceived to be, whose behavior is reflected in a stereotypical "flamboyancy". Flamboyant This article is about the Gothic architecture style. For human trait of flamboyancy, see effeminacy. Denaar (talk) 16:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested move (#1)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:07, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Dir en grey → Dir En Grey — Per WP:MOSTM, which states that trademarks should be capitalized, as with proper names, and to "follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'" Sorafune   +1  21:26, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support For reasons given by proposer.  Skinsmoke (talk) 23:42, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support - Delete the redirect and move. Note: The redirect has a history. – allen四names 01:12, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Your argument is misleading because the band does not use "Dir en grey" as a typeset on any of their releases, in their promotional materials, etc etc. Dir en grey was chosen to follow the rule that says that the first letter in article titles should be capitalized, but all following words should not be capitalized from WP:Title, Article title format section.  If the words should be capitalized because a band name is a proper nown, then the title should be Dir en Grey.  The word "en" is French for "in" or "as" and shouldn't be capitalized, since you wouldn't capitalize "in" or "as" in English.  Denaar (talk) 02:16, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the words should be capitalized because a band name is a proper noun. Otherwise, we'd have "The beatles", "30 seconds to mars", and "Do as infinity". Considering the "en", I did not find any reliable source that says that the band name is French. Sorafune   +1  02:35, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The source on Japanese wikipedia is a TV show performance in 1998 on the show Nikkan Hit. Denaar (talk) 03:54, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * A source would have to be something that I could verify, and I have no idea how to find a 1998 episode of Nikkan Hit, even if I tried resorting to piracy means. Isn't there an online source you could find? Sorafune   +1  16:23, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't limit yourself. If there is a source that can be referenced via inter-library loan by all means use it. – allen四names 16:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ...What library has that episode then? Sorafune   +1  16:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I was referring to what you (Sorafune) wrote... "Isn't there an online source you could find?" If you limit yourself to the internet you may miss the sources you are looking for, namely the sources that will show how this band's name should be capitalized. That said I do not know of any library that has the episode you are referring to. – allen四names 17:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move (#2)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: nomination withdrawn. mx3 話  16:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Dir En Grey → — Their name is officially written as Dir en grey everywhere since the very beginning in 1997 and is case sensitive. (The latest years have started to use DIR EN GREY but we don't know if its an temporate stylizing) Their name is not English and should not be treated with the "English Standard Text Formatting"-system. The band itself, their management (sun-krad) and record label is refering them as Dir en grey and have NEVER used Dir En Grey. Databases like MusicBrainz is also prissy about English Standard-caseing but they have them typset as Dir en grey with the argument that "capitalizations that Artist Intent comes first" and the artist has intended it to be Dir en grey. I have plenty of more arguments so just approve this and change it into Dir en grey. Killinstinct (talk) 10:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. MusicBrainz has their own rules and different guidelines to follow. But on Wikipedia, we follow MOS:TM, which says to "capitalize trademarks, as with proper names" and to "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'." And this is regardless of what language it is in. In fact, most names, like The Beatles, Coldplay, B'z, Adidas, Malice Mizer, Clazziquai, are composed of words that aren't actually English, or any other language, but have to follow English capitalization rules anyway. In the same way that "beatles" isn't a real word, "dir en grey" are not words that pertain to a specific language and are not real words either. I highly advise you to read Official names. Oh, also since MusicBrainz is a wiki that anyone can edit, and since they do follow official capitalizations, I changed their band name there to "DIR EN GREY", which is the only stylization the band seems to use nowadays. mx3  話  15:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I still don't care about what you follow, DIR EN GREY should just be an exception then because their name is invalid if it's being written as Dir En Grey. You changed their name yourself into DIR EN GREY at MusicBrainz-database and that only gave me more proof and arguments that the name should be changed into DIR EN GREY. "MusicBrainz is a wiki that anyone can edit" I thought Wikipedia was a wiki that anyone can edit, Wikipedia has never told me that there were rude Grammar-nazis changing every single little change back to the former one because it's not grammar correct. I actually start to think Wikipedia is a rude place! Wikipedia in all other languages don't have this problem, why just the English one? I read Official names but that doesn't say anything about this issue. Stop being a bitch and approve the change, what's your problem? I just put another move request into DIR EN GREY then. I'm not giving up, so stop bitching and just approve with me because I am right about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Killinstinct (talk • contribs) 16:12, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 00:21, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Dir En Grey → — DIR EN GREY is the correct typeset for this wiki. The band itself, their record labels around the world (Japan, Europe, North America) is refering them as DIR EN GREY (in caps) their MySpace and official homepage, their CD and DVD releases, official merchandise is also refering them as DIR EN GREY. It's Artist Intent and should be respected. Stop decline this, I'll just request the move once again and again. I'm not giving up because I'm correct about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Killinstinct (talk • contribs) 16:12, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Once again, strong oppose. I'm not declining this, I'm just opposing it. Rationale: MOS:TM, as usual. If you keep making the same move request over and over, chances are you'll get banned. mx3  話  16:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to make the same move request over and over because this one are going to be approved! DIR EN GREY is not a trademark, it's a band name and it's case sensitive. Come with other arguments why this shouldn't be moved into DIR EN GREY expect for that old MOS:TM you always refering to.Killinstinct (talk) 17:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * MOS:TM actually has an example similar to this very move proposal. It gives an example that the band KISS should be written as Kiss, so band names are considered trademarks. mx3  話  19:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose It really doesn't matter how the band chose to style themselves.  Wikipedia has its own style, which we keep to.  DIR EN GREY would only be appropriate on Wikipedia if each of the letters was a capital letter standing as an abbreviation for another word.  They aren't.  End of!  Skinsmoke (talk) 17:22, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It's still not English, and shouldn't be treated with the English Standard text formatting rules.Killinstinct (talk) 17:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Similarily, "SHINee" is a band name that isn't English but a move proposal to have Shinee moved to SHINee failed because of MOS:TM. mx3  話  19:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose Per MOS:TM, WP:ALLCAPS and the Japanese manual of style. 夢  追人  YumeChaser 01:14, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I agree with YumeChaser, mx3, Skinsmoke &asymp; Prometheus  «talk» 11:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per YumeChaser. Powers T 13:12, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. As per the comments already put forward above. This is a proper noun, which is capitalized correctly in accordance with the Wikipedia Manual of Style, and so there is no need for a move. --DAJF (talk) 13:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose for the reasons made clear in the first move discussion. In fact this proposal may be a candidate for WP:SNOW. – allen四names 18:56, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Main Band Picture
Since the current one is from 2009, does anyone else think it would be a good idea to update it with something more recent? Perhaps a promo shot from 2011 or one of their latest tour pictures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.41.213.167 (talk) 19:41, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless the band is broken up and no other image is available, then the image used in the infobox for a band must be freely licensed or in the public domain. The current image fits this description, but promotional shots probably won't. Also, 2009 really isn't that long ago compared to other images. 206.29.182.225 (talk) 16:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Extreme Metal?
Can we change the various Metalcore, death metal and all the extreme styles simply with extreme metal?? They change and mix some of these styles in each song, and extreme metal can be used generally of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.29.140.77 (talk) 11:16, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, in the past, the infobox informed only "rock/metal" and provided a small shortcut for the "Musical style" section. Considering their diversity of sounds, it would be a better choice instead of listing multiple genres, since they have experimented with many rock/metal sub-genres.  Victão Lopes  I hear you... 22:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Scream for the Truth
Should this section be included in the article? I do not think it passes WP:NRV and WP:NTEMP. It was a brief advertising campaign, has it had any further developments since? If it hasn't, it should probably be removed from the article. xcuref1endx (talk) 14:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Promotional or Informational?
In the introduction there is this; "Billboard commenting on the group's international fanbase, wrote that the band "has transcended the language barrier in the United States through its music" and "gained its audience without singing in English". This seems that it could have easily been entered into the article by Dir En Grey's publicists.  Does it add anything to the overall information of the article?  Would it be any different if there was just a comment on their international success?  The "trascending" of language barrier seems a bit excessive.  Any thoughts?  --Xcuref1endx (talk) 11:36, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Merge proposal: Dir En Grey Yarouze here
Dir En Grey Yarouze doesn't meet WP:NBOOK or WP:GNG, but could be a useful merge and redirect here. Boleyn (talk) 09:20, 26 December 2014 (UTC)


 * It seems like a good idea to me. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 04:09, 27 December 2014 (UTC)