Talk:Dissolution of the Soviet Union/Archive 2

Soviet Union centre
What the heck is "Soviet Union centre" that is mentioned numerous times in the article? Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 13:52, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

We were first!, No us!
There seems to be half a dozen contradictory statements in this article to the effect that either this or that former soviet republic was the first to demonstrate/rise up/etc. I would suggest that all these instances of nationalist posturing are removed, because it seriously weakens the credibility of the text in general.79.146.239.229 (talk) 18:42, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Historical revisionism in this wiki article
Please prevent politically motivated historical revisionism in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wzx 111‎ (talk • contribs)
 * Please be more specific. We cannot read you mind. -M.Altenmann >t 00:09, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * However I do see some section titles are weird. Probably work of some student's wikipedia assignment. -M.Altenmann >t 00:21, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Declaration no. 142-H
Any one know an Englishy translation of the declaration? Frenchmalawi (talk) 20:41, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Heck, I cannot find any translation of the title of the declaration :-) Do you need a reference or you want the text? -M.Altenmann >t 22:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
 * text is what I'd like to read. tHanks. Frenchmalawi (talk) 13:57, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Council of the Republics of the USSR Supreme Soviet

Declaration on the Establishment of the Commonwealth of Independent States on December 26, 1991 № 142-[Н]

Backed by the will expressed by the highest state authorities of the Republic of Azerbaijan, Republic of Armenia, Republic of Belarus, Republic of Kazakhstan, Republic of Kyrgyzstan, Republic of Moldova, the Russian Federation, Republic of Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Republic of Uzbekistan and Ukraine on the establishment of the Commonwealth of Independent States, the Council of the Republics of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR declares that with the creation of the Commonwealth of Independent States, the USSR as a state and subject of international law ceases to exist.

The Council of the Republics of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR addresses the leaders of the Independent States with a proposal to consider the following issues:


 * On the succession of the USSR and of the all-Union bodies of state power and administration in connection with the formation of the Commonwealth of Independent States;
 * The establishment of the Commonwealth interparliamentary body to maintain a unified legal, economic, humanitarian and ecological space in the territories of the states - members of the Commonwealth;
 * Ratification, implementation and denunciation of international treaties signed by the USSR before the Commonwealth.

The Council of the Republic of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR encourages higher representative bodies of state power and the heads of states - members of the Commonwealth to take all measures within their power to ensure the rights and freedoms of citizens irrespective of their nationality in accordance with the Declaration of Human Rights and Freedoms {Декларация_прав_и_свобод_человека, not to be confused with the Declaration of Human Rights}, peaceful co-existence of the Commonwealth, the democratic development of their statehood, good neighborly relations and cooperation with the states and peoples of the world community, the steady implementation of international obligations arising from treaties and agreements of the USSR.

Chairman of the Council of the Republics of the Supreme Soviet
 * A. Alimjanov

- Nothing nontrivial, I would say. -M.Altenmann >t 17:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


 * >t - Thanks a million. Your response here is really encouraging. Restores a bit of my faith in the Wikipedia idea. I encounter so many BIFFO editors. You kindly gave me a bit of time and thought and prepared the above. I appreciate it! If I knew how to, I would nominate you for a barnsatar of some sort.
 * Thanks a lot, maybe if you've translated the above, you might want to contribute the translation to English Wikisource. All the best. Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:10, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I absolutely hate the idea of barnstars and the whole wikilove shit. they create an illusion that normal civilized behavior is something exceptional. "thx" should be enough. i suspect those who collect barnstars are miserable losers in real life, and brandishing their BS pumps their ego. i find this ironic that BS is an abbrev both for BarnStar and for what you thought.
 * I translated the text not because i am such a nice guy, but because i understand that this may be of use for wikipedia.
 * i have no idea how wikisource authorizes "unauthorized" translations. you know ctrl-C ctrl-V, right? meaning, 'bug off, i helped you out, but with this s*it you can help yourself', meaning 'wikipedia is a collaborative project'. -M.Altenmann >t 03:25, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
 * P.S. And i am an idiot: Declaration no. 142-N of the Soviet of the Republics of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR. When doing google search it did not occur to me that the index of the declaration, 142-Н, may be translated as well. -M.Altenmann >t 03:32, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks again >t and it's refreshing to hear your thoughts on the barnstar-types. Frenchmalawi (talk) 14:09, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Editing note
The approach of the 25th anniversary of the first proclamation of independence by a Soviet republic (Lithuania: March 11, 1990) prompted me to copy-edit the present article for English style, syntax, chronology and readability – but not for content. I have added nothing new other than a few minor details known to me from extensive reading. (Latest read: The Last Empire: The Final Days of the Soviet Union, by Serhii Plokhy. Basic Books, New York, 2014.)

This important, comprehensive and generally well-documented article is very long. I managed to condense a bit here and there, but it still totals some 14,500 words.

Maybe a historically knowledgeable user – perhaps someone from one of the former Soviet states – might be able to suggest passages that could be trimmed or deleted as repetitive or redundant – ??

С наилучшими пожеланиями! Sca (talk) 16:57, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

After Soviet Collapse Canada Becomes BIGGEST Country in the World
What is conspicuously absent in this article is the shift of status of BIGGEST country in the world from Russia to Canada after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991. I witnessed this event with my very own eyes on the TV during Christmas of 1991 when the USSR and Russia clearly collapsed and broke into 1000 pieces thereby making Canada the BIGGEST country in the world. People who told me otherwise at that time were communists from the "o continente" whoare not even the real Abrileiros therefore this article may be biased towards the communists from the Lisboa and from the "o continente" because the Wikipedia entry on the dissolution of the Soviet Union doesn´t mention that with the break-up of Russia into 1000 pieces Canada became, by default, the BIGGESTcountry in the world.GatineauWhereTheRealAbrileiroLives (talk) 12:14, 28 November 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GatineauWhereTheRealAbrileiroLives (talk • contribs) 12:01, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * See WP:No original research. You'll have to cite sources to back up this claim in the article.  Nott Nott  talk &#124;contrib 12:16, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Date of Transnistrian independence incorrect
Under "Chronology of declarations of newly-independent states" the declaration of independence of Transnistria is stated as September the 2nd 1990, but this is the date that it (the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic; PMSSR) declared independence from the Moldovan SSR, not the USSR as a whole according to the wiki page on the history of Transnistria. If there is a date, it is the 25th of August 1991 when (two days before the declaration of independance of Molodova) they declared independence again after Gorbachev had signed an order revoking their September 2nd declaration of independence. "On 25 August 1991, the Supreme Council of the PMSSR adopted the declaration of independence of the republic.", but it seems this was from Moldova again, not the USSR.

Arguably, either the PMSSR never left the USSR (which seems more likely) or it left on the 25th of August 1991. Either way, the date displayed on this page is wrong. For sources, see History of Transnistria

Hentheden (talk) 13:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Link is good. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:03, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

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 * Link seems useful. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:04, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Controversial
«[…] the dissolution of the USSR also signaled the end of the Cold War.» Source necessary. I actually think this statement has no place in the lede, in this form at least. In Russia itself, the end of the Cold War is usually marked by the events of the end of the eighties, like Gorbachov's speech. That is, when the Soviet Union dissolved, the Cold War had already ended, through unilateral generosity. You see, there is a controversy. - 91.122.0.186 (talk) 13:17, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Deletion of GIF
There was a GIF showing the break-up of the Union. The last slide stated that Crimea joined Russia in 2014. This is incorrect. It did not join Russia, it was illegally invaded and is not recognized as being anything but part of the Ukraine. The GIF in itself it great but the last part needs removing before it can be put back on Cls14 (talk) 09:26, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The Wikipedia article on Crimea characterizes it as under de facto Russian administration. I don't know that "joins" has to mean full international recognition. The coloring of Crimea on the map, post 2014, is striped blue and red, indicating disputed territory (those colors being the map colors of Ukraine and Russia respectively). I think that the GIF should remain up until there is consensus for removing it, per WP:BRD; but I'll leave it off for now, pending hearing how others feel. Dhtwiki (talk) 13:59, 29 June 2016 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and restored the gif, pending consensus to remove it, as further editing of the article makes it (slightly) less likely that I could do it as easily. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:03, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Well, technically neither statement is incorrect and both statements are correct. That is, Crimea legally joined Russia and was recognised as part of Russia, and Crimea was illegally invaded by Russia and was not recognised as part of Russia. As to the Wikipedian standards, you will find both options in respectable sources. Besides, there are many kinds of recognition, apart from the legal kind: for example, back in 2003, the US claimed that illegal action is righteous, and did not withdraw the claim since then. What is righteous for one is righteous for everybody. - 91.122.5.28 (talk) 21:00, 4 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The main question here should be why this is featured in an article on the dissolution of the Soviet Union, which, additionally, in its body text specifically covers events from 1986 to 1991. The chronology gif is interesting, but apart from controversy related issues it is decidedly weird to include a 2014 event. -- MiG (talk) 18:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

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 * Link works and seems useful. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:46, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Moscow loses control
The section is written in a strange way. The section states that Baltic countries were captured by popular fronts. Is that an appropriate word? Captured would be what the Soviet Empire did to the Baltic states in 1940. So how is that similar to what was happening in 1988?? And in loosing control over Caucasus never took place and sounds like an opinion of unknown source for some reason unidentified in the article. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 13:01, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Wrong to say 'some' joined EU and NATO as only the Baltic states did - 3/15 republics
Moldova had and Ukraine has to fight a war beacause of similar dreams.Xx236 (talk) 07:29, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * 3 of 15 is some of 15. "Some" is subjective. The only problem is it is vague, but it's not "wrong." Perhaps "a fifth" would be better wording? Jersey John (talk) 19:32, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

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WW II?
John Mosier's book on the Eastern Front ('Deathride: Hitler vs. Stalin: The Eastern Front, 1941-1945') citing Emmanuel Todd 's demographic studies, makes the case that WW II resulted in a slow-motion collapse of the USSR because of the large losses of manpower in certain demographics. Thought that might be worth mentioning in the article (as far as a possible contributing cause).Rja13ww33 (talk) 03:55, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:22, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Boris Yeltsin 19 August 1991-1.jpg

No attention for the human consequences
Such a long article and not one word about the millions of people who felt forced to leave their home and move somewhere else? See for example: https://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/26/world/a-focus-on-those-displaced-by-the-fall-of-the-soviet-union.html 217.104.89.12 (talk) 13:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I also think this is worth adding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greece666 (talk • contribs) 08:17, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

i liked the old version way more
first few paragraphs were written way better and the old photo with the tanks at red square was a lot better. the current diagram could be placed elsewhere in the article.should be more in depth about the ussr being voted out of existence 50.71.69.96 (talk) 12:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Could you give a better idea of the date of the old version (it's in the edit history and can be examined by other editors)? Dhtwiki (talk) 23:11, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Article needs to be trimmed up
The whole article needs a pretty serious pruning in my opinion. There's lots of non-scholarly descriptions of events, as well as events that, though completely factual, can hardly be said to have been contributing factors to the dissolution of the Soviet Union, or even representative illustrations of popular dissent. (Ex: 300 young Latvians in a mini-riot in 1986 after leaving a rock concert, Soviet authorities agreeing to build a monument in Byelorussia in 1989.)

One can appreciate the time taken to elaborate this article but in practice it's overly long and written in a language that is not scholarly ("Just as important was the uncensored live TV coverage of the legislature's deliberations, where people witnessed the previously feared Communist leadership being questioned and held accountable"). There are also numerous statements of fact without a cited source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strawberryfire (talk • contribs) 21:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Chernobyl
I believe that The Chernobyl accident had a huge part to play in the fall of the USSR. Gorbachev even stated that it had a huge role in it so I believe we should have at least a paragraph for it Doodle 7303 (talk) 01:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Rebellion in the Caucasus - duplicate text
There are duplicate parts of this text, can anyone consolidate?

This paragraph is duplicated twice, with slightly different versions "Gorbachev refused to make any changes to the status of Nagorno Karabakh, which remained part of Azerbaijan. He instead sacked the Communist Party Leaders in both Republics – on May 21, 1988" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Now3d (talk • contribs) 09:36, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Proposal for changes
Hi everyone, Looking back over the talk page it looks like there's a general consensus that the article is too long, and could use some simplification. I wanted to propose some things and see what everyone thought.

Reorganization of the timeline structure
One of the biggest things that I think makes the article unwieldy is it's breakdown of events into years, as opposed to importance. For example, the same article on the Russian Wikipedia doesn't sort by 1988 - 1991 but by country, starting with those countries that first started to voice dissent and later leave the USSR. Much of the dissent occurred in the Baltic states, and the subheading Protest activity in Background could almost completely be combined into a section on the Baltics. After the Baltic states would follow the Caucasus (modern day Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Armenia), and then the eastern republics including Moldova. Much of the details of specific events could be moved to region or country specific pages.

Another consideration in this reorganization is the pertinence of events to the actual dissolution. A good deal of the article deals with political posturing within the USSR, and could be cut. Instead, I propose

A background section dedicated to Gorbachev's reforms and government reactions to fracturing unity
This section could become the new background, and detail in short how Gorbachev attempted to keep the USSR together while making room for reform. This section could also include more information about the international reactions to the fall, including at the Berlin Wall, which is arguable one of the most recognizable signs of the USSR's decline but is currently only mentioned in passing. This could also be an opportunity to insert American statements in regards to the Cold War and Space Race, or that could be kept in the impacts.

A final historical section on the 1991 election and coup
Again modeling the page after the Russian wiki, this section would keep most of the 1991 information, but again focusing less on the timeline and more on the impact of the most important events. In particular, I think there's some context missing around the time of the coup, and what Yeltin's goals were.

Additions to the impact
Although this was probably one of the most important events in the 20th century, the impacts section is remarkably lack-luster. I suggest sports/Olympics be added to an "International Relations" section that also includes the final part of the 1991 transfer of the USSR's UN Security Council seat to Russia.

Other possible headings from the Russian wiki include: Domestic Conflicts (a series of 7 rebellions or wars inside previous USSR states during which approx. 100,000 people died and 5 million were displaced). The fall of the rouble zone. The breakdown of the USSR's military forces and nationalization of them to Russia, as well as new nations' creations of armed forces. Of particular interest there was the dividing up of the USSR's nuclear weapons to Ukraine, Kazakstan, Russia, and Belarus, and the demilitarization of borders after ex-Soviet states were no longer concerned about being forced back into the Union. Finally there are some notes about the status of the Crimea and Kaliningrad.

Hopefully those changes would make the article more reader-friendly, and topical. Let me know what you think! Ph03n1x77 (talk) 22:52, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I like most of your suggestions. Not sure about switching from timeline to country structure, as the events in many countries impacted each other and were not independent. Alaexis¿question? 12:35, 13 July 2021 (UTC)