Talk:Djibouti/Archive 1

Old talk
Re my deletion of the Somali version of the name from the lead: We don't do that. =p We put in the official languages or, if none exists, then the primary de facto language. United States has it in English; not Spanish, even though that's spoken by 10% of the population. If the official languages are Arabic and French and Somali is still not a majority, then I don't think it should be there. --Golbez 16:32, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

70% Djiboutis are native Somalis, the rest being Afars and others. The cultural and historical language of Djibouti is Somali. The president speaks it in every other official and governmental speech. It may not be in "official languages" category of their constitution, still the vast majority of them speak Somali and are Somali.--Soomaali 11:03, June 5, 2005


 * Can you cite any other country page that would fit such a criteria? A country where 70% of the natives speak an unofficial language that is mentioned in the lead where there is an official language? --Golbez 20:23, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Luxembourg is one such country. Official languges: French and German (de facto almost exclusively French). National language: Lëtzebuergesch, spoken by all citizens.

I(I being the guy who posted about the Niqab below) agree on this also, while the vast majority of Djiboutians speak Somalian, we aren't actually taught that in the schools, the languages being French and Arabic being added around CE/CE2, which is the equivalent of Grade 3/4 in North America. But yes, Somalian is very much our native language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.164.20 (talk) 21:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The convention is to include the name in all major spoken languages. It does not signify approval of one language over another.  I have reinstated the Somali name and added the Afar name.  Skinsmoke (talk) 19:57, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Copyright Violation
I don't mean to make the page look ugly, but the text in the Geography section appears to be taken from. It was added by 193.251.143.233. Perhaps someone could rewrite it. Mtrisk ]


 * I've added the previous text to the temp page the copyvio note links to. -- llywrch 21:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What did he say?
"Present at the swearing in ceremony were several regional leaders. Guelleh, in an address during the ceremony, said:"

That's the end of the paragraph, what did he say?

Merick June 29, 2005 20:56 (UTC)


 * Maybe he said nothing...it would be kinda poignant ;-) JD79 01:27, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Reformatting the page
The infobox should be replaced with a template — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.103.254.235 (talk • contribs) 11:18, 25 August 2005‎

Wrong previous country name !
Please get your facts straight ... Djibouti was never the "former French Somaliland" it was formerly called "Terre des Afars et Issas" and had nothing to do whatsoever with Somaliland ! &mdash; The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.58.43.208 (talk • contribs) 21:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe "Terre des Afars et Issas" (or Territory of the Afars and Issas) was the most recent name until Djibouti became independent. I have a map from circa 1920, on which the area is translated as "Somali Territory - French Colony." The original map is actually in Amharic ("Yesomali ager - Yefarensawie Gezat"). But no, it doesn't explicitly say "French Somaliland" though I remember seeing it referred to as such elsewhere. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Source of Name?
I think a lot of people find interest in Djibouti because of it's unusual name, thus a source of this name would be helpful to those who wish to learn. VarunRajendran 07:42, 30 December 2005‎ (UTC)

Djibouti has nothing to do with the somali's Djibouti is mostly Afar and it always was, peopel just don't get the whole truth about djibouti, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.56.164.122 (talk • contribs) 21:16, 13 December 2006‎

Ridiculous to said that when the Afars used travel documents to visit Djibouti city. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.139.215.241 (talk • contribs).

Date of president's swearing-in?
From the Politics subsection: Ismail Omar Guelleh was on Saturday sworn in for a second and final six-year term as president of the tiny Horn of Africa nation...

Which Saturday? I gather that this happened months ago, or was it actually last Saturday (December 31, 2005)? Either way, it should be changed to the actual date. Dharmabum420 20:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

January 2006
how do people of djibouti live? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.139.179.2 (talk • contribs) 16:56, 11 January 2006‎

arabic of djibouti
i've long been wondering if djibouti has it's own dialect of arabic. it seems logical to me that it would, but i have been unable to find any reference to it. Gringo300 04:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you call someone from Djibouti?
The country of Djibouti, its adjectival form, and its demonym(s) are not listed on List of adjectival forms of place names. Do people from Djibouti only self-identify as their ethnicity, or is there a collective name for anyone from Djibouti? If you know, not only would it be a valuable addition to the article, but you could add it to the list mentioned above as well. Thanks. Happy editing! --Cromwellt|talk|contribs 14:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Djiboutian (See: Demographics of Djibouti)--Greasysteve13 06:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

You call someone from Djibouti, Djiboutian or Afar

No you can not call them Afar, if you don't want to be killed by Djiboutian-Issa. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.156.214.247 (talk • contribs) 12:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject
In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Eastern Africa at WikiProject Council/Proposals whose scope would include Djibouti. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

February 2007
WTF is going on in the economy section of this article? casts a realy shadow over the rest of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.233.85.241 (talk • contribs).

Joke or error in a sentence?
'''In the Demographics section, 3rd paragraph, it states "The Somali ethnic component in ya bootie!! is mainly composed of the Issas."

While I think that "in ya bootie!!" may be hilarious, I wasn't expecting to see it and I am guessing it has nothing to do with the article. It made me smile and scratch my head.

Dr Dave 02:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)'''


 * Someone fixed it. The article unfortunately is a vandalism magnet since it has a name that rhymes with "bootie". --MarsRover 04:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

hehe, ya booty! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.46.213.154 (talk) 19:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Someone wrote ja-booty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.16.160.27 (talk) 02:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The Frank Zappa album "Sheik Yerbouti" (released in 1979) is clearly a pun on the name of this country. 72.177.123.145 (talk) 17:41, 27 June 2013 (UTC) Eric

Removed text from History section
At some point in the last 10 weeks, someone added the following text to the article:
 * France had colonised it in the early 19th century and renamed it Umunga (previously called Comoros). Independence was claimed once before in 1887 when a local tribe overthrew the 8 permanent soldiers stationed there. Their independence only lasted 3 weeks before they were once again colonised.

While at first glance this appears as if it were plausible (colonial garrisons were quite small, & because of the size of French Somaliland as well as its small population there might have been only 8 soldiers stationed there at some points), the more I thought about it the more I became convinced that it is a hoax. In 1887, the governor of French Somaliland was Léonce Lagarde, who was busy buying munitions & shipping them to Ethiopian Emperor Menelik II. (The Battle of Adowa was only a few years away, and Menelik knew that the Italians had designs on his realm.) Not the Ethiopians, the French or the local inhabitants wanted to disrupt that profitable activity, & had this happened it would have rated a mention in the various histories of the Horn (e.g., "Menelik's military build-up was unforeseeably delayed when a local tribe expelled the garrison in the French colony, and although the colony was quickly recovered, he lost several months in pursuing his armament campaign"). On the off-chance it isn't a hoax, I moved the text here, awaiting the appropriate citations to be provided before this passage is restored. -- llywrch 05:08, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I can say with 99% confidence that it is a hoax. Djibouti wasn't colonized until the late 19th century, and it was never called "Comoros" (the name of an island between N. Madagascar and mainland Africa). &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 08:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Demographics
Issas was the youngest son of Dir and his father was known as Madoobe. Dir had four other sons namely Madaweyn Dir(Gurgure, Layiile, Aw Said, and Akisho), Mahe Dir (Isaaq, Bimaal, Gadsan and Sure) and Mandaluug Dir (Gadabuursi). The fifth Dir son was Qaldho Dir.

The Somali ethnic component in Djibouti is mainly composed of the Issas, who form the majority and the Gadabuursi and Isaaq, all of whom are closely related as Dir subclans. The Issas form part of the ciise Madoobe Dir, while the Gadabuursi and Isaaq are part of the Mahe Dir, Mohammed Hiniftire. The Issa Madoobe Dir are divided into two groups:the Abgaal and Dalool which are futher divide into seven sub-clans:Howlgati and Walaaldoon (Makahir, Mahamuud, Iidleh)Uurweeyne (Fiqi and Abdalle), Wardiiq, Hooroone (Habar Walaala and Geelwalaal), Howleh, Fuurlabe (Mahdle, Saahib) and Ceeleeye (Mamaasan and Muuse) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.37.188.66 (talk • contribs) 08:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

On addition, I thought the Gadaburisi are actually Mandaluug Dir and are related to other Southern Dir of Mandaluug origin. I am told the Southern Mandaluug include the Reer Nuure, Makahiil, Buufow, and Reer Maajuun of Bay region while the rest live in Region 5 of Somali Ethiopian province. Mandaluug of Luuq - Doolow Ado area, Kalafo area, and Western Hiiran. The Angoole of western Hiraan and Makaahil of Kismayo-Jammaame and Jilib areas of Bimaal Dir territory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.187.238 (talk) 08:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Request improvements to culture section
Unfortunately I know nothing about Djibouti or I'd make some improvements myself - so this is a request to someone who knows more: please could you take a look at the culture section. There's something irritating about it. What first got to me were the sweeping generalisations about clothing - which don't stand up when compared to the various photographs on the page. Clearly all men don't wear the clothes described - nor are women's clothes typically brown. And the comparison to a Roman toga bugs me. I get that, but when this comes on top of the other generalisations the article begins to feel like it was written a couple of hundred years ago by the colonising nation. And the sentence "Using their native language, these people can sing or dance a story, acting it out." can't help but add to this feeling. Thanks if someone can respond. Rowmn (talk) 15:19, 8 April 2008 (UTC) This request still stands - please improve this section if you know about 'culture' in Djibouti - even in a small way by widening the language - "men wear" to "many men wear" would help for instance (I'd do this myself but I'm ignorant of the subject). 80.176.157.94 (talk) 10:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Protection
Even though I am not a regular editor of this page, a large amount of vandalism has been going on. The editors of this page might want to request protection against vandals.  Meldshal42 Hit me What I've Done 23:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Niqab worn commonly?
Anyone who says that the niqab is worn commonly has never taken more than a single step in Djibouti. The only attire common to Djiboutian women are something called, and sorry if I'm butchering the word but they don't actually teach Somalian in the schools there, how messed up is that. Anyway, they are something called a 'dirah', 'shalmad' and a 'gogorad'...I know it's not properly written but I'm spelling as best as I can phonetically. The gogorad is a long, ankle-length skirt, the dirah is...sorta .like a robe but of a very light material and the shalmad is basically a very, very long shawl. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.164.20 (talk) 21:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism Awareness!!!
Hey, Just so you know, there has been alot of vandalism on the talk pages and the article. It is hard to find out who, but I am good at finding people. You guys doing this... I... am... the... INTERNET SHERRIFF! But, wiki, do what you can. I am with you all the way. I am trying my hardest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djiboutinative (talk • contribs) 00:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC) What is sinebot?!

Name=Afar Origins
I will attempt to get the source to make an imput on the article, the name Djibouti comes from the Afar "yi buti" My casserol The story is told by an old Afar Lady who was asked, when cooking with her "buuti", what she was doing by one French Officer? She responded "aaha yibuuti" This is my casseroll! No joke, this quite sad and pathetic actually. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factualparadox (talk • contribs) 21:20, 30 April 2009‎

All or nothing
Then perhaps it would be most suitable to mention the mos recent name rather than the 1920S?? Because then there would need to go back as far as the first Afar name this location had before it was even a country? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factualparadox (talk • contribs) 21:23, 30 April 2009‎

Serious issues of vandalism and "undo" mania of facts need to be delt with.
Inquity 1:

You'll find, if you look well enough that the Somalis are not natives of Djibouti, rather the vast majority, and now overwhelming majority for Djibouti Ville that is, are product of imigration.Including the two presidents who have been in power since 1977, first and Somali from Somali,the latter and current from Ethiopia. Whilst 2/3 of the population is said to live in Djibouti city, conveniently enough, the majority belong to the Somali ethnic group. Conversely all other regions, including the oldest excisting ones such as Obok and Tadjoura, have for majority the Afar people.

I read somewhere and else, including ethnologue that the Afar made about 300,000 on a population of (roughly) 500,000 in the 1990s i recently read it's about 800, 000 and Somalis make about 500,000 wonder how it went up so fast? We should add a section. Can you tell us the source for your statitistics?

Being a majority in number does not make one group righfull owners,if i may use such term? Nor natives.

The definition that i am refering to: "The term indigenous peoples can be used to describe any ethnic group of people who inhabit a geographic region with which they have the earliest known historical connection, alongside immigrants which have populated the region and which are greater in number.[1]   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Factualparadox (talk • contribs) 21:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Conflict with Eritra
See Eritrean-Ethiopian War
 * Eritrea allays fears over new war 31 July 2008.
 * Eritrea denies Djibouti war claim BBC 8 May 2008.
 * Djibouti says Eritrea risking war, BBC 24 October 2008.

"2008 April - UN Secretary-General Ban Ki Moon warns of likelihood of new war between Ethiopia and Eritrea if peacekeeping mission withdraws completely. Outlines options for the future of the UN mission in the two countries.
 * Timeline: Eritrea, BBC, 15 April 2009:

Djibouti accuses Eritrean troops of digging trenches at disputed Ras Doumeira border area and infiltrating Djiboutian territory. Eritrea denies charge.

2008 May - Eritrea calls on UN to terminate peacekeeping mission.

Clash with Djibouti

2008 June - Fighting breaks out between Djiboutian and Eritrean troops in the disputed Ras Doumeira border area. At least nine Djiboutian soldiers killed. US condemns Eritrean "aggression" but Eritrea denies launching an attack.

2008 July - UN Security Council votes unanimously to end UN peacekeeping mission monitoring disputed border between Ethiopia and Eritrea.

2009 November - An armed opposition group, the Red Sea Afar Democratic Organisation, says it carried a major attack on a military base, killing or injuring more than a hundred people.

2009 April - UN Security Council says Eritrea failed to fulfil its obligation to withdraw troops from disputed border area of Djibouti under an ultimatum issued in January. Eritrea denies having troops on Djiboutian soil."

Has anyone written an article on this yet and if so what is its name? --PBS (talk) 10:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

OK I've found it 2008 Djiboutian–Eritrean border conflict -- PBS (talk) 10:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Um, since when is Turkish an official language of Djibouti?
Is this true? I went on the Turkish language article and it said that Djibouti was one of the countries in which Turkish is an official language. I was like "wtf?", and so I went on the Djibouti article and I found that it also says here that Turkish is an official language. I mean seriously, guys, is Turkish really an official language of Djibouti? I myself highly doubt it. It must be vandalism. 82.45.234.136 (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It is probably vandalism/hoax. Is so, need to revert of lot of changes since it is on several articles. --MarsRover (talk) 06:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I reverted this article. If it is true, then the editor involved is welcome to cite a source to that effect. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No, Turkish is not an official language in Djibouti. However, the Ottoman empire did have a presence here, so that's perhaps where the people who wrote those pages got that idea from. Middayexpress (talk) 19:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Recognised regional languages
In infobox we have information that Somali and Afar are "recognised regional languages" with ref to CIA World Factbook. But the World Factbook has no such information (only information that Somali and Afar are spoken in Djibouti). Aotearoa (talk) 11:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

The terrorism paragraph conflicts with the USS Cole Section
"It is from Djibouti that Abu Ali al-Harithi, suspected mastermind of the 2000 USS Cole bombing" - is not in agreement with the text found in the "USS Cole bombing" section of Wikipedia, which lists different convicted and suspected "masterminds" of the attack. No wonder we don't use Wiki for any serious research! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.23.68.40 (talk) 13:17, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This text is now tagged as needing citations and failed verification (LeMonde requires subscription).--S. Rich (talk) 16:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Typo
In the opening paragraph it says 'The most predominant religion ... Is muslim', I think you mean Islam. I would have just corrected it myself but the opening was locked :/. Cheers! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.15.74.116 (talk • contribs) 19:12, 27 December 2010‎
 * Good point. (Islam is the religion and Muslim is an adherent.) I'll fix.--S. Rich (talk) 19:16, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Female Genital Cutting vs. Male Circumcision
Under the Health section of the article it states statistics on "female circumcision" in Djibouti. At present, "female genital cutting" or "female genital mutilation" are the more accepted terms. (In fact, the World Heath Organization, whose statistics are cited in the article, uses "female genital mutilation"). This is primarily because female genital cutting is not the same as male circumcision. While male circumcision is generally accepted in society and does not normally cause long term physical or psychological harm, female genital cutting does, and is widely opposed by the United Nations, the World Health Organization, and Amnesty International. It is officially outlawed in many countries across the globe. Additionally, when you follow the link in the Djibouti page from "female circumcision", the Wikipedia article is titled "female genital cutting" (though of course the other names are acknowledged). As such, I believe that the article should refer to it in these terms. More importantly, I find the phrase "[a]bout 94% of Djibouti's male population is also reportedly circumcised" to be highly inflammatory. This statement implies that the two are analogous, and it is well-established that they are not. I think that this really ought to be reconsidered. HilaryClark (talk) 17:34, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Both female circumcision and male circumcision are forms of genital surgery. The word "circumcision" itself comes from the Latin term circum (meaning "around") and cædere (meaning "to cut"). So they are analogous operations, albeit applied to different genders; both involve the removal of genital tissue for what are, in the main, cultural reasons. Why one form of circumcision (the female kind, which is generally practiced in non-Western societies) is censured in primarily Western societies (including the WHO), while the other (male circumcision, which is quite common in the West) isn't, is more a statement on differing social mores than anything (c.f. ). The fact is, male circumcision also poses many health risks, as its numerous detractors (including the late Ashley Montagu ) will tell you, and is likewise often described by its opponents as just another traumatic form of genital "mutilation" . I therefore think it's best, at least for Wikipedia's purposes, to label the procedures neutrally, without endorsing any particular view (viz. that male circumcision is ok while female circumcision is abhorrent). Middayexpress (talk) 19:13, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You're response is only partially accurate. While some female genital cuttings only involve the removal of the prepuce and tip of the clitoris, many others are far more extreme.  Type III, which accounts for 10% of the FGCs in Africa  involves the removal of the entire clitoris, labia minora and majora, as well as the scraping of the vaginal wall.  The opening is then stitched up with only a small hole remaining to allow for the release of urine and menses.  After this, women usually have to be cut open and sewn closed anytime they ingage in intercourse or give birth.  Type II and III are the types practiced in Djibouti .  I don't describe this to trigger some emotional response, but only to illustrate that FGC is not analogous to male circumcision.  In no way am I in favor of male circumcision, and I understand that it is not without risks and repercussions, but it is still not in the same category as infibulation, or even clitoridectomy.  The health risks are much higher, there is no denying that.  I understand that this is in many ways a Western perception of the issue, but the fact of the matter is that female genital cutting is also outlawed in Djibouti and those found guilty of preforming female genital cuttings are subject to fines of over 5000 USD and 5 years in prison.  .  Of course the enforcement of this law is another matter, because it is so deeply engrained in the culture.  I understand that and have no desire to pass judgement on other people's cultural beliefs.  But factually speaking, female genital cutting is simply not the same as male circumcision.  If others insist on retaining the inflammatory language of the article, I'd like to at least suggest that it be added that the practice was officially outlawed by Djibouti in 1995. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HilaryClark (talk • contribs) 18:29, 1 January 2011‎
 * A law was indeed passed in Djibouti outlawing the practice. However, it's not really observed or enforced since the practice is very deeply engrained in society (it dates back to Pharaonic times, and is just one of the many so-called "Hamitic" customs the people in this particular part of the world still practice); more so because it is actively encouraged by the women themselves, not the men. Likewise, midwives perform the procedure, never men . I also fail to see how the neutral term circumcision (which, again, literally means to "cut away around" -- a very accurate description of the procedure) is inflammatory. The term "mutilation", on the other hand, can obviously be (and often is) construed as being insensitive toward women and men who have undergone genital surgery. I am also quite aware that there are different types of female circumcision, and that clitoridectomy is by far the most common type practiced in the world today (though not necessarily in Djibouti). That, however, does not change the basic fact that male and female circumcision are analogous operations, applied to different genders. Both involve the removal of genital tissue for what are essentially cultural reasons, both have their (often very strident) opponents, both have had laws either tabled or passed to legally proscribe them (c.f. ), and both have their "corrective" surgeries designed to reverse some of the physical changes the procedures have engendered. What you have asserted above about the differences between male and female circumcision is also almost word-for-word the so-called "gap excuse" often cited by opponents of female circumcision. One of the links I already directed you to discusses this argument in some detail, but I'll repost it here just in case it was overlooked:


 * "'The asserted dramatic gap between the harm caused by female genital mutilation and male genital mutilation is often claimed to excuse human rights interpretations that only bar female genital mutilation and do not explicitly protect the male's right to genital integrity. The validity of this 'gap excuse' is questionable. This misperception is based on a false comparison of the most severe forms of female genital mutilation, as practised under unsanitary conditions in the African bush by untrained operators, and male genital mutilation, as practised in sterile American hospitals by trained medical practitioners. Male and female circumcision carried out under similar conditions have similar rates of long-term and short-term complication. The true distinction between male genital mutilation and female genital mutilation appears likely to be one of degree rather than kind and not a difference that can support a refusal to vilify male genital mutilation under human rights principles.'" Middayexpress (talk) 19:57, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Regions and districts
What are the sources for this section? On Djibouti's government's website it states (in French), under the heading "Regions", that there are "5 administrative divisions called districts". It gives them, in order, as the District of Djibouti, the District of Ali-sabieh, the District of Dikhil, the District of Tadjourah, and the District of Obock, which does not match the list of Regions given here, or the list of Districts given at the Districts of Djibouti page.--DrewMek (talk) 18:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC)