Talk:Dmytro Klyachkivsky

Fill free to use source
Highly reccomend you http://www.dt.ua/3000/3150/54958/ But do not forgot to include

Не будемо ідеалізувати Клячківського. Нещадні умови безкомпромісного протиборства зробили з Савура жорстокого та твердого керівника. Він відповідальний за ескалацію україно-польської «волинської різанини» 1943—1944 рр., за накази про знищення совєтських військовополонених, які втекли з німецького полону, за ініціювання фізичних «чисток» лав самої УПА — задля викорінення агентури противника та «непевних елементів».

Не забуваймо і про участь Савура у налагодженні хоч і кон’юнктурного, але співробітництва з німцями та їхніми союзниками. 2 квітня 1944-го Клячківський через абверкоманду групи армій «Північна Україна» передав пропозицію щодо координування боротьби з совєтським військом, надання повстанцями розвідувальної інформації, просив передати 20 польових і 10 зенітних гармат, 500 автоматів, 250 тисяч набоїв, 10 тисяч гранат.Jo0doe (talk) 07:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Dmytro Klyachkivsky - responsible for begining massacres
[http://books.google.com/books?id=Mfy2IZcbmHgC&pg=RA1-PA187&dq=Klym+Savur+Poles&lr= Tadeusz Piotrowski, Genocide and Rescue in Wołyń. Page 187]

We should make a large action of the liquidation of the Polish element. As the German armies withdraw, we should take advantage of this convenient moment for liquidating the entire male population in the age from 16 up to 60 years. We cannot lose this fight, and it is necessary at all costs to weaken Polish forces. Villages and settlements laying next to the massive forests, should disappear from the face of the earth''.
 * Władysław Filar, Anti-Polish actions of Ukrainian Nationalists (in Polish)--Paweł5586 (talk) 16:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Responsibility for massacres and Ethnic Cleansing
Hello,

This entire section seems to have been written to prove a point rather than provide encyclopedic information. One of the references is actually a "confession" given to a court by somebody who admits he "butchered and shot over 15,000 civilian residents among whom were the elderly, women and children" in two days[].

This seems to be a simple smear campaign, and I think some serious sources are required or it should be removed.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

We got many sources about Dmytro Klyachkivsky orders. Władysław Filar, Grzegorz Motyka and more. This orders are pointing at Dmytro Klyachkivsky as person who is responsible for begining and escalate massacres of Poles. This orders were published in books by Władysław Filar, Grzegorz Motyka.--Paweł5586 (talk) 09:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Hello, "we got many sources" is not really an answer, is it. Especially if the first source you cite is a leader of the Polish Home Army. If you "got" sources pointing at Klyachkivsky as person who responsible for any massacre, please show them. Courtroom wartime confessions are not sources. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 09:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

In his 1997 study, Filar came to the conclusion that the sole result of the actions of OUN and UPA were to destroy the Polish population. This he bases on a command given by "Klym Savur" regarding the liquidation of he urban Polish population. Information about this command was recently discovered in a criminal deposition of Yuri Stelmashchuk which existed in the archive of the SBU in Volyn. The command was apparently a secret one given orally and under torture by D. Kliachkivsky to liquidate all Polish elements in the region. Filar comes to the conclusion that UIA consciously aimed their actions against the civilian Polish population. He also concludes that the UIA made its priority the extermination of Polish elements rather than fighting the occupiers. Filar's arguments were aimed at providing credible reasons for the undertaking of the Operation Wisła by the Polish Communist government.

Filar's thesis was criticized as being tantamount to rehabilitating the acts of the communist administration and as being politically incorrect by Grzegorz Motyka and Rafał Wnuk. --Bandurist (talk) 11:12, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Your claims about Filar criticizm by Motyka are out to date. There is second proof of Klaczkiwski order - letter from Stelmaszczuk --Paweł5586 (talk) 11:53, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Filar published Klaczkiwski order, and his newest book - Volhynia events mention that (2008) as well. I got this book i can scan pages.
 * Motyka also mention that in Ukraińska Partyzantka (2006), and added statement: III OUN In August 1943, during III OUN Convention Shukhevych accepted "Volhynia stategy" (ethnic cleansing) against Poles realised by Dmytro Klyachkivsky.
 * Piotrowski - source.

Hello, Pawel5586, you don't actually answer any of the questions:
 * "Filar published the Kliachkivsky order" - which order? Where was this given? By whom was it recorded? What did it say?
 * Could you please show where Motyka states that Shukhevych accepts the "Volyn strategy", where it is defined, and when it is realised by Kliavhkivsky;
 * With respects to the link you provided for Piotrowski, please check not only whether it contains key words, but rather where those words came from - "Court testimony of Iurii Stelmashchuk" - which brings us back to the original problem - wartime court confessions are not really sources. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 10:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Order about ethnic cleansing - this one which is quoted in the article. It was given in Volhynia, Filar based on:  Archiwum SBU Obwodu Wołyńskiego, d. nr 11315, t. l, cz. H, s.16. Reference 17. Second proof about this order is in letter of Juri Stelmaszczuk, Motyka wrote about it.
 * Volhynia strategy means - ethnic cleansing. In August 1943, during III OUN Convention Shukhevych accepted "Volhynia stategy" (ethnic cleansing) against Poles realised by Dmytro Klyachkivsky. As the Supreme Commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army he continued anti-Polish action in Eastern Lesser Poland (Eastern Galicia). In April 1944, main Command of UIA ordered massive ethnic cleansing of Poles from Galicia. Source: Grzegorz Motyka, Ukraińska partyzantka 1942-1960, Warsaw 2006, p. 376-381.--Paweł5586 (talk) 07:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Categories
With regard to the inclusion or removal of the two categories and  :

As far as the first one goes, I think it's very obviously pertinent and belongs in the category. After all, Klyachkivsky was *the guy* who initiated the massacres. There's really no good reason to remove that one. This is already discussed in text and of course more details can be provided.

As far as the second one, the "Genocide perpetrators", goes, there, there is some room for disagreement. Basically it centers on the question of whether the Massacres in Volhynia were "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing". If the former, then the cat belongs in here, if the latter, then its inclusion is questionable. Reliable sources themselves disagree on the nature of the massacres themselves so it's a bit of a judgement call. The question comes down to whether the criteria for including the category is that *some* sources make the claim, or the criteria for inclusion is that *overwhelming majority* of sources make the claim.

At this point I'm a bit on the fence myself. My own view, based on the sources I've read is that the massacres were something like "ethnic cleansing with elements of genocide". For the time being I would be fine with not including the "Genocide perpetrators" category, though if other editors can make a good argument one way or another I'm willing to pick a particular side off that fence.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:56, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Edit reverted by Ymblanter in regards to Filar's falsification
Evidence of his actions was claimed to be found in SBU archives by Polish historian Władysław Filar and was published in 2000 in his book Before action Wisla, there was Volhynia. However, the alleged directive appears in different modern publications only as a small fragment with different textual variations. Furthermore, Volodymyr Viatrovych and later Serhii Riabenko did not found such document in the archives by the reference provided by Filar. Instead, it was a criminal case about polizei accused of attacking communists without any mention of Klyachkivsky.

(Reverted with edit summary "not really surprising that Viatrovych did not find something in the archives"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.135.137.240 (talk) 22:17, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, the difference is that Filar is an academic scolar, and Viatrovych is a propagandist on a government payroll, who is not interested in finding the document. They are just in different leagues.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:23, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Filar defended Polish villages against the Ukrainian Insurgent Army which means he might have bias as well. Archives in Ukraine are open and Serhii Riabenko searched archive reference given by Filar and found different document by that number instead.
 * Viatrovych is Serhii Riabenko's boss. Let us wait until a scholar does this, not a propagandist, and publishes in a reliable source, preferably in English.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:33, 24 March 2021 (UTC)