Talk:Do or Die (Thirty Seconds to Mars song)/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 15:07, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Happy to offer a review. It's a real shame you've had to wait so long. J Milburn (talk) 15:07, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * "Written and produced by lead vocalist Jared Leto, the lyrics" Poor writing- the song was written and produced, but "the lyrics" is the subject of the sentence
 * Fixed.


 * "The song, which is imbued with elements of arena rock, is styled in electronic rock." A little clumsy
 * Reworded, please check if it is ok.


 * "John Hanes engineered it for mixing at Mixstar Studios in Virginia Beach, Virginia." What does this mean? The whole paragraph is a little choppy.
 * That's what the liner notes say ; Engineered for mix by John Hanes", how should I put that?


 * Per WP:SAMPLE, the music sample should not be more than about 64kbps.
 * Reduced.


 * "a female voiceover proclaiming the song's title in the Chinese language," Proclaiming? This is a very weird sentence.
 * I've changed "proclaiming" with "introducing", please check if it is ok.


 * "The full-throated chorus" ??
 * Full-throated: using all the power of one's voice.


 * "The song includes the contribution from the band's fans, credited as Knights of the White Shadow, captured singing a chorus over the band's recording studio." This doesn't make any sense
 * Reworded, please check if it is ok.


 * Be aware of MOS:LQ
 * Fixed.


 * The lead implicitly suggests that the song wasn't released as a single (it charted due to album downloads, no single release is mentioned) but, in the article, it is claimed that it was released
 * Fixed.


 * "On August 30, 2013, it debuted at number 75 on the Ö3 Austria Top 40." How can something debut at #75 on a top 40?
 * Ö3 Austria Top 40 is the name of the chart, but it actually ranks 75 songs.


 * ""Do or Die" was used by Major League Baseball as the theme song for the 2013 Major League Baseball Postseason." Reference?
 * Added ESPN source.


 * The caption "Dutch music producer Afrojack remixed "Do or Die" for the song's digital release" seems to contradict what's written in the main article. It wasn't remixed for a particular release?
 * It was remixed for one of the two digital releases of the single.


 * "entered the Dutch Top 40 at number 53" again
 * That is the name of the chart, but it actually ranks 70 songs.


 * "deemed the song as an album highlight" Clumsy
 * Fixed.


 * "John Watt from Drowned in Sound was more mixed" No he wasn't- his comments about the song were
 * Fixed.


 * You've got two sections called "Background". This isn't ideal. I'd just remove the second one and leave it under the level 2 heading.
 * I've renamed and reorganized the first Background section.


 * "Leto conceived its concept" Clumsy
 * Reworded, please check if it is ok.


 * "with a German guy whom ... ran into the" Much too colloquial
 * Reworded, please check if it is ok.


 * The music video background section is very quote-heavy. Same with the two review sections.
 * I've paraphrased most of the quotes in those sections, please check if it is ok.


 * "The song later became a signature part of the opening stages of the Love, Lust, Faith and Dreams Tour which followed, usually appearing as the penultimate song before "Up in the Air"." This really needs to be made clearer
 * Clarified.


 * "ared Leto swung a flag carrying social messages and invited the audience to join the band on stage towards the finale" Unclear
 * Clarified.


 * "A writer of Digital Journal" Bad writing, overlinking
 * Fixed.


 * I'm seeing a lot of questionable sources. The Stampede (which is also a deadlink), Prysm, Stature, Lowdown, Half Full, Recapo... What makes you think these are good sources?
 * I've removed The Stampede (school newspaper), Half Full and Recapo (unreliable). I left Prysm, Stature and Lowdown which seem to meet WP:RS.


 * Do you need both Category:2013 singles and Category:2013 songs?
 * We need both categories per WP:SONG.


 * File:Thirty Seconds to Mars - "Do or Die" (Single).jpg should really be no more than 300 by 300 px. Also, the old versions should be deleted.
 * Reduced.

This feels some way below the bar for GA status right now- the writing is fairly poor in places, the sample needs sorting and some of the sources are questionable. However, I'm happy to see if you can make the fixes necessary. J Milburn (talk) 15:58, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your review, J Milburn, I'm working on the article. Since I'm not a native English speaker, I'd greatly appreciate more clear and definite comments about the prose and any help with copyediting.--Earthh (talk) 14:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Please accept my apologies if I have been too harsh in my comments about wording- I have full respect for anyone who can write an article like this in a language that is not their own! If any of my comments are not clear or you aren't sure how to fix them, reply inline and I'll clarify if I can. J Milburn (talk) 17:01, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * J Milburn, please look at my responses to your points and let me know if you have answers to my questions or any further concerns. Thanks, Earthh (talk) 22:46, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll aim to get to this over the weekend. J Milburn (talk) 08:25, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Second read through
This is looking loads better.


 * "It charted in some nations due to digital sales from the parent album" So not from sales of the promotional single? Do you have a source for this claim?
 * A promotional single is made available to radio stations and is not for sale. A commercial single of Do or Die (the remixed version) was released exclusively on Beatport, while a digital single became commercially available around August 2014 (after the the song charted) through the band's official website, so the song should have charted due to digital sales from the parent album.


 * "eclectic experimentation and voiceless soundscapes" Are these quotes? They're not-so-neutral-sounding
 * They're quotes. Fixed.


 * "The music video begins with a German boy who Leto had previously met in Berlin" The source says nothing about German or Berlin
 * Fixed. It is referred by ref 31.


 * "After Leto stumbled upon the German fan" Still too informal
 * Can you help me there?


 * "Karen Bliss of Noisecreep gave the video a positive review and commented that the band never fails to impress with what they can do within the confines of a music video." There's a real close paraphrasing issue here. You can't just deal with overquotation by removing quotemarks- that's the worst thing you can do.
 * I noticed that. I've fixed it, check if it is ok.


 * "Leto swung a flag carrying social messages (such as marriage equality)" This still doesn't work
 * On this flag there were written social messages such as marriage equality, pollution, peace and so on; how should I put that?

I have done a good bit of copyediting- please check my edits. One remaining worry is about the sourcing. I've found an example of information which is not in the cited source, and an example of close paraphrasing. Once you've dealt with the above comments, I'm going to have to look more closely at the sources. J Milburn (talk) 10:01, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for you edits, . Do you have any additional comments, questions, or concerns?--Earthh (talk) 18:28, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. I'm still a little concerned about the sourcing.
 * "he song later became a set-fixture of the Love, Lust, Faith and Dreams Tour, usually appearing as the penultimate song before "Up in the Air". However, after the festival tour in June 2013, which saw the band travel to Rock am Ring and Rock im Park as headline act, the song was moved to the middle of the setlist, usually played before Leto's acoustic B-stage set." Is all of that actually supported by http://popcrush.com/30-seconds-to-mars-rock-out-at-2013-rock-am-ring-festival-video/ ?
 * That source supports the headlining spot at the Rock am Ring. I actually thought that the other statements didn't need a source but it can add them if they're needed.
 * Sources would be good. J Milburn (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Added a source by Kerrang.


 * "Upon its release, the video received general acclaim from critics and fans" What is supporting the claim that it received acclaim from fans?
 * The following sources claim that.
 * Which ones in particular? I'm not seeing it. J Milburn (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Both FN's 33 and 37 could support that.


 * "Writers for MuchMusic noticed the band's tradition for producing unconventional music videos and praised "Do or Die" calling it "another epic" short film" The writers do not call it a short film.
 * The music video is released in the form of a short film (due to its length), and I used the term "short film" to avoid the repetition of "music video".
 * Do you have a source saying that it's a short film? That is not at all obvious, certainly not the kind of claim I'd expect to see in a GA without a source. J Milburn (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Both FN'30 and 31 called it a "little film".

My worry is this- I don't really want to go through every source, but when I'm spot-checking, I am seeing a lot of issues. J Milburn (talk) 18:36, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You can check all sources if you want, . If the article has some issues, I will swiftly resolve them.--Earthh (talk) 17:26, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * My point is more that I shouldn't need to. It's not good that I'm finding discrepancies between the sources and the article at this stage of the review. J Milburn (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
 * , check my responses above, I think that the discrepancies about which you're talking can easily be fixed. Thanks, --Earthh (talk) 20:37, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to go ahead and promote, but with some advice: please make sure that what you write in articles matches what is claimed in the source. On more than one occasion, I've seen great editors face a lot of heavy criticism (borderline witch-hunts) because they're claiming things in articles which don't quite match what the sources say. Just be careful with it- it is important, especially because (unlike, say, rogue apostrophes) this isn't something that will be quickly fixed by readers. J Milburn (talk) 16:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank your for your edits and advice.--Earthh (talk) 19:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)