Talk:Doctor Who Prom (2008)/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

I have assessed the article according to the Good article criteria, and have placed it on hold, since there were a few areas which I feel could be improved.


 * 1) Well written / Broad in its coverage:
 * The lead is too short: it should provide a better summary of the article's contents. See WP:LEAD.  It would be good to give some explanation of what a "prom" is.
 * I've expanded the lead, with more context on the Proms. Let me know if it's sufficient. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The infobox is set up to describe Proms. It is numbered 13; What does this number relate to?  And how can the preceding one be "Doctor Who: A celebration": that was not no. 12; it wasn't even a prom.  Decide if you're presenting this as a Prom, or a Doctor Who concert.
 * Does the expanded intro clarify the infobox, or does it still need changing? (I couldn't find an infobox for a single concert — see my sandbox and the talk page for various attempts.  Unfortunately, I don't have sufficient command of table templates to make a bespoke infobox.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The "purpose" section is quite short, and could do with a little more information about how the concert came to be. Was it instigated by the Doctor Who team, or did the proms organisers approach DW?  Perhaps some reference could be made to the previous DW concert mentioned in the infobox.  Did that impact in any way?  (eg. perhaps the popularity or critical reception of the first led to the second...)
 * Expanded, with reference to previous concert, as suggested. (The Doctor Who Magazine article goes into more detail if it would be useful.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The Doctor Who Prom was part of an ongoing drive to make the Proms more accessible and inclusive. An ongoing drive by whom? Was this in response to criticism that the proms were not accessible or inclusive?
 * Not sure how to deal with this one: the source just says, "The concert, hosted by the actress Freema Agyeman, who plays one of the Doctor's sidekicks, Martha Jones, was part of the drive to make the annual Proms season more inclusive." I suppose I could ask for more background at Talk:The Proms... —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * defended the programme against charges of "dumbing-down". Who laid the charges/criticism?  Or is this just a straw man?
 * I've added a bit more on this — oddly, the reliable sources (such as the Independent and the Western Mail, as well as the Times for a different Proms concert) all say things like "the BBC Proms faced accusations of 'dumbing down'..." without saying who was making the accusations. I did find one website which is full of such criticisms of BBC 3 (which produces the Proms — Roger Wright, the director of BBC 3, also makes the Proms programming decisions), but they didn't have anything specifically complaining about the Doctor Who Prom.  I gather that this is an ongoing debate, whenever the Proms puts on something more "populist" and less "classical", and the newspapers were referring more to general claims of "dumbing down" than to anything specific in relation to the Doctor Who Prom. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * How many prebooked tickets were available? Why was there a "waiting list", rather than simiply issuing them? Tickets were touted for £250.  What was the face value?  What was the official response to the touting? (Isn't touting illegal?) 6000 attended: was that capacity?  Were they mainly DW fans?
 * Expanded this section — hope it's sufficiently clear now. (Couldn't find anything on official response to the touting, sorry.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What was the rationale for choosing the classical pieces? Were they chosen to complement the DW ones?  Who selected them?
 * Found a bit on this, but unfortunately Gardner just says "there were discussions" and "we decided" without clarifying who "we" were. I would surmise that it was Gardner, Gold and Wright, but that's just a guess and doesn't belong in the article. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Programme:
 * It's not always obvious which are DW pieces, and which are general pieces. Is that important?
 * Does the mention of Murray Gold as Doctor Who composer in the intro help clarify this? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * During the Prom performance, Cybermen, Judoon, Sontarans and Ood appeared on stage and in the audience. Since we're dealing with the real world, where cybermen at al do not actually exist, it might be more appropriate to say "actors dressed as..." or similar.
 * ✅ —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * three Ood entered the hall: ditto. Plus, what's the relevance to the music here, esp. considering it's not even a DW theme.
 * ✅, but honestly I don't know why they brought out the Ood during "Jupiter". No particular relevance, I suppose — just some added colour for the kiddies. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It is well-known for its use in scores: a little weaselly. Who says it's well known?
 * I found a ref for this, but it's not a great one (a college newspaper). —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * has become associated with television series The Apprentice'' So? What's the point of this trivia?  How does it impact on the topic at hand?
 * If it's good enough for Caitlin Moran, it's good enough for me. :-) Cited. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 *  Freema Agyeman commented... Why did she?  When?  In an interview?  Or was she involved in the concert?  Ah: I see from production that she was one of the presenters.  Perhaps this information should be given in the lead, so a reader can interpret the table's commentary without needing to skip ahead.
 * ✅. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * vocalist Tim Phillips provides the vocals. Past tense would be appropriate for something which has happened.  (But it makes me wonder: was this lifted from a concert programme?  Can you assure me this is not a copyvio?)
 * The concert programme notes are a cited source for the article, but this tense slip-up wasn't derived from them. I think that the programme is cited whenever it was used. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Production:
 * Freema Agyeman, who played Martha Jones (etc): would be helpful to know that she played the character Martha Jones in DW series 3 & 4. (and so on for other actors): we are talking about a concert, so readers will not automatically assume you are referring to a tv episode. In fact, the relationship between the series and the concert needs to be made more explicit.  Again, the lead would be a good place to mention that the music presentation was accompanied by theatrical displays.
 * Hope this is clearer now. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The mention of "Music of the Spheres" is confusing; perhaps outline the plot and the interaction between epsiode on screen and action in hall. (Perple shouldn't have to hunt the clip on youtube to understand the article)
 * Does the current version give enough detail? (I don't want to overlap too much with Music of the Spheres (Doctor Who) — I had suggested that the article on the mini-episode could be merged with the one about the concert, but there was little support for the idea. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Production could include some notes about the preparation for the concert: who chose the pieces, how they were arranged, rehearsed, and so forth.
 * Some stuff added, both in "Production" and in "Development and purpose". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) Factually accurate and verifiable:
 * A few things need citations, including some direct quotes. Added notes to that effect
 * Citations added. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

✅ Neutral in tone; positive and negative criticism reported
 * 1) Neutral
 * 1) Stable
 * ✅ article is stable, with no edit wars


 * 1) Illustrated, if possible, by images
 * ✅ images have captions and appropriate licenses. A lead image is desirable, but not essential.  You might consider using one of the Albert Hall, or similar.

In general, this article reads well, and I'm sure with a little attention will easily fulfil GA criteria. I hope you find the above suggestions helpful. Feel free to discuss any of them with me. Gwinva (talk) 02:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks good: I'm impressed with what you've done in such a short time. I'm pretty happy with the way you've addressed the concerns I raised above, and believe you've done enough for GA. (FA would be more particular on the details, of course.) Just a couple of niggly things before I pass it: the programme commentary for "doomsday" and "Doctor's Theme" still need cites for direct quotes. I know there's a lot of citation already, but the direct quotes MUST have their own, even if they repeat one from the previous sentence. The other, extremely minor quibble: why does the "broadcast" section comment about Radio 3 need 5 cites? Gwinva (talk) 23:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added the citations. The citation for Freema Agyeman's comment "not a dry eye in the house" is to the primary source, the concert itself, which at the moment isn't really verifiable (I can check my own recording of the concert, but that's not quite up to snuff).  If this were FA, I'd probably delete the remark, but as it is I think it adds a bit of colour and the use of the primary source is relatively harmless.


 * And I've no idea why there were 5 citations for the Radio 3 broadcast. I've reduced it to two: the programme listing and the Proms website.  (Either one would be sufficient on its own, but I couldn't decide which was better.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Great! I'll pass it now. :) Gwinva (talk) 03:44, 7 October 2008 (UTC)