Talk:Dog show

Hierarchical graphic
OK, I think I finally understand all this. So I created a first-draft diagram. Please see whether it's correct. It's saved as a gif but source is powerpoint, so if anyone wants to take a stab at making this more presentable, let me know & I can email it to you. Image:DogShowHierarchy.gif. Elf | Talk 18:14, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Beat me to it--a chart was going to be my next suggestion. WTG Elf!
 * The only thing I would suggest is that, since you use males as an example, you add the full titles, i.e. Challenge Dog, Reserve Challenge Dog, Challenge Bitch, etc.
 * Quill 22:47, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dang, I forgot all about this. I just put a link to it on the page although I didn't incorporate your suggestion (not deliberately, just haven't taken the time). Elf | Talk 19:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The graphic for Australia is wrong & needs fixing. Puppies (to age 6 months) never compete with dogs older than 6 months. The link from "Puppy Class" to "Winner (Challenge...)" needs to be removed. 14.202.132.63 (talk) 10:46, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Should this page move to Conformation show

 * (Copied/moved from User talk:Elf/Archive dogs. Elf | Talk 19:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC))

How about... moving Dog show to Conformation show, merging in the text from conformation point and making that a redirect, and changing the links to conformation ? Just a thought :) -- sannse (talk) 10:33, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I'm trying to think along those lines. I think that's not quite it yet, because "dog show" is by far the most common phrase used by most people, excepting breed people when they're talking about such a show to other knowledgable people, in which case it's often just "conformation"--but I think to laypeople they'd also say "dog show". But maybe your suggestion is a good one.  I'll let it rattle around in my head a while longer.  Thanks!  Elf | Talk 16:24, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Elf, is it time to consider a dab called Dog show which would offer Conformation Show, Obedience Trial, Agility_competition which would redirect to Dog agility, and whatever the correct terms are for field and herding competitions? (IS an Agility meet called a competition, or a meet, or a contest, or what?) Lisasmall 01:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * NOW I like this idea a lot (it's been rattling around in my head for only a year and a half...and I keep encountering places where "dog show" isn't quite right or this article isn't right for the phrase). I would like to move this page (dog show) to Conformation show and make Dog show a disambiguation (dab) page but maybe with a little more info than a normal dab? I particularly think about this every time I'm out of town for an agility trial and people don't understand what I'm talking about until I say "dog show", in which case, oddly enough, they may make the connection to the "obstacle course for dogs" that's going on that weekend...


 * Anyway, related articles would include:
 * Conformation show (or Conformation dog show? Are there, say, conformation cat shows? Or is "cat show" sufficient for cats?)
 * Obedience trial (I keep redirecting or piping stuff to obedience training, which in fact really isn't the same thing)
 * Dog agility trial (I don't think we need a separate article from the sport--although, hmmm, I could probably write one, in fact... would have to flip a coin on whether to use trial or match or test, all used by different orgs in different contexts).
 * Sheepdog trial
 * Field trial
 * Other opinions (a) on moving, (b) on list of other articles to link to? Elf | Talk 19:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * novelty show, if you must create a "disambiguation" page
 * specialty show or specialty show (dog) if there's enough material to create one--maybe just a separate section in dog show, what do I know?
 * See also: dog sports, Best of Breed, Best in Show, General Specials, dog group
 * This is one of those issues where I'm torn. Sometimes there's a fine line between true neutrality and wishful thinking--can't think of a better term for it.  Anyway,  "Dog show" means conformation show to the overwhelming majority of people.  The fact that it should also include dog sports or dog dancing for that matter--well, is that neutrality or political correctness or just the way the enlightened would like to have the term understood?
 * That's an interesting question about cats, because a cat show works differently from a dog show, in that the cats aren't paraded about, they're displayed in their cages, then the judge(s) take them out one by one and examine their conformation. I'd love to see a cat agility contest myself--a couple of dozen kittys sitting around yawning defiantly.
 * Actually, I just reread one of Elf's paragraphs--if it's okay in the Wikipedia universe to put more info in a DAB page than we often see, then yes, a DAB page with an opening editorial would be fine by moi.
 * I don't like the idea of merging conformation point and conformation show, there should be internal links, but then again Sannse's point was written in 2004, there may have been so many additions to both articles since then to make it moot--dunno.
 * Quill 21:20, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, I agree about leaving Conformation point separate. "Novelty show"--I've never even heard the term, and I'm not sure that I'm comfortable calling dog sports "novelties" (sounds like a circus sideshow).  We could go with a more typical dab page--Dog show (disambiguation) and leave this as a conformation show, although conformation show seems more accurate to me.  Elf | Talk 23:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * (BTW, sorry, forgot to stick these in: http://www.pandecats.com/x/cat_agility.htm  and http://www.catagility.com/ ).  Elf | Talk 23:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC))


 * Haaaaa--no. I wasn't suggesting that dog sports are novelty shows.  A novelty show in the dog world is where you have "cutest dog", "dog with the most spots", "fancy dress dog"  things like that. You asked what else should go at the proposed disambig page, so I said novelty show hmm...maybe I should make that more clear at the page?  Quill 02:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Whew, OK, I get it now, so you were saying you might go along with moving this to Conformation show and turning this into a disambig page if we held you down and tickled you long enough... Which of course I would never do. Usually.  Point acknowledged about "correct term" vs "most common" term, but I think the grade of difference between "conformation show" and "dog show" is considerably less than, say "oophorectomy" and "spaying" (still griping about that, yes). Or maybe it's just as opaque to a nondog person, I dunno.   So--   Do they ever have "most popular dog" or "dog most likely to succeed"? (Takes me back to my high school days... "Cutest boy, cutest girl, best-dressed boy...girl with the most spots... " stuff like that.)  Elf | Talk 04:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ummm....something like that...there's a Monty Python sketch in there somewhere....So Dog show is going to be a disambiguation page now, that where we're at? I dunno about "Dog most likely to..." but I have seen "Best Trick Dog", "Dog with the Waggiest Tail"; "Most obedient Dog" is a goody but since I've never in my life owned one of those, I have little to say.  Then there's the ever-popular "Dog/Owner Look Alike"--always good for a laugh. Quill 05:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. The deed is done. And I do NOT look like my Jakey dog no matter WHAT any silly photographer thinks.  Elf | Talk 17:19, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Removed section
The following section actually speaks more to dog breeding than showing, and in its present form invites POV arguments rather than fact. If worked on, it might be better placed at dog breeding?

Criticism of dog showing
The practice of breeding dogs for conformation showing has become a subject of intense debate. Critics charge that breeding dogs for conformation shows is detrimental to the breeds involved. It is argued that the fact that kennel clubs have closed registries requiring that breeding be conducted within a breed is tantamount to mandatory, continuous inbreeding as all members of the same breed are related. When breeding pairs are selected based upon the whims and fads of the show ring rather than on the abilities and traits for which the breeds were initially developed unfortunate changes in the breeds are inevitable.

Critics blame the related intensive inbreeding for, among other things:
 * Creating "cute" American Cocker Spaniels at the expense of aggressive behavior now seen among so many of these dogs.
 * Producing an American Cocker with long silky hair and short jaw, rendering the breed all but useless for hunting.
 * Transforming the Irish Setter, once a popular gundog, into a beautiful, long-haired, but foggy-headed caricature of its former self.

Many working dog breed organizations such as the American Border Collie Association and the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America have spent great amounts of time and effort in the fight to keep their respective breeds from being recognized by the AKC as they fear that introduction of the breed to the show ring will lead their dogs down the same path taken by the Irish Setter and the American Cocker. The ABCA has even gone so far as to mandate that any Border Collie that is recognized as a Conformation Champion will be forcibly delisted and excluded from breeding programs.

Quill 22:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Removed section
The following section was removed as very little of its content deals in any way either with the overall page topic or with the stated subhead. Part of it is about registries and the rest mostly consists of random remarks about various canine utilitarian applications.

History of dog showing


The control of points awarded to dogs in most countries is maintained by a national pedigree registry in that country. The Kennel Club of Great Britain is generally recognized as one of the first organizations, if not the first, to register purebred dogs. A second historic registry is the American Kennel Club. France, Italy, and other countries began to maintain important kennel club registries in the 19th century.

Establishing and maintaining a separate breed of dog and, therefore, separate breeding stock and separate registries, from the 14th to 21st century, was not always only a matter of looks or fashion. Dogs have been man's partner for thousands of years. Centuries ago, owners required certain skills and behaviors of some dogs, and many breeds that are recognized today reflect the different jobs that owners historically required dogs to do. A man living in the desert might have needed a dog that could run in sand and last a few days without water or food--that would probably mean a dog with large paws, like a camel, and a very sparse coat to deal with the heat. A man living in polar regions might need a dog that could swim icy waters, run in ice and snow, and survive that region, which would likely mean a lot of coat and a sturdier frame to survive swimming and plodding through snow.

Today, there are dogs who will search the ruins of a bombed building or an avalanche in an effort to find survivors; others assist the blind or the disabled; still others serve as a first defense line to sniff out bombs or drugs. These dogs can do these jobs because they preserve traits historically required of dogs for performing their jobs. A dog standard is a blueprint that describes the physical attributes that a dog breed must have to do its job.

Ditkoofseppala 00:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Genetic drift
Genetic drift is a term used to describe the random change in the frequency of alleles in a population. The term does not really apply to dog breeds from which individuals are selected to be the parents of the next generation. Theshibboleth 04:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Judging
In the section on Judging I removed "there have been charges of favoritism, nepotism, bribery and even drugging of competitors'animals." Please cite cases of judges drugging animals (and cites for the other charges) before replacing.--Hafwyn (talk) 06:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This needs a reliable citation:


 * Unfortunately, some judges (i.e. handler judges) may no longer be are capable of impartial judging and believe that only professional handlers should be allowed in the ring. These judges often will put-up an inferior dog because of the person showing the dog (the "handler") and not on the quality (or correct type) or soundness of the dog. Because of the lack of standards many poor quality and inferior dogs are being used to promote the next generation resulting in numerous breeds loosing their form and purpose.  Many dogs shows today can compared to World Wrestling Federation were the outcome is fixed before the event begins.  A simple check of the judges history will show when a judge puts up handlers (ie agents) a majority of the time.  — Hafwyn (talk • contribs) 22:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The big question for Hafwyn is when was the last time she showed a dog under AKC rules - if she is a owner/handler and does her own grooming, showing then she can state the above, but is she "hires" a professional handler she is part of the problem. Anyone that is associated with the dog show community knows with a wink and a nod what this common practice is and the problems it has created.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.212.28.50 (talk) 15:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is deservedly considered to be a worthless resource due to unsupported opinion in the encyclopedic entries such as the one ("Unfortunately, some judges...") quoted above. Weasel words (Everybody knows" ... "Some people say") are not a good ways to "document". Please see Verifiability and Neutral point of view for assistance; and please do not replace it in the article without adding reliable citations.
 * To the unsigned comment person above: yes I show my own dogs. Yes, I have been beaten by a better handler with a dog that is not (from my point of view!) as good as mine. Handling skill is part of the game; whether or not there are pros, there will always be some people who will be better at handling than others. It's a sport; don't take it so personally. No wink or nod needed; I cannot hit a baseball as well as A-Rod or show a dog as well as George Alston. That doesn't make the judge a crook. If you have not at some point been thrilled by an amazing job of handling, you are perhaps in the wrong sport.--Hafwyn (talk) 05:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that best of breed be merged here - we have no article for best in show except for specific lists, so i feel that article would be better served as a section here titled 'awards' or similar. -- T K K  bark !  15:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This seems like a sound merge; a lot of information on best of breed is (or should be) in conformation show. —Ost (talk) 21:00, 19 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I support the merger, it would be easier for readers, since most of the information should be in the confirmation show article anyway. Libertybison (talk) 04:36, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

FCI
Way to ignore most of the world. --Pitke (talk) 13:37, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

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