Talk:Dokka Umarov

UN Security Council puts Chechen militant Dokka Umarov on terrorist list
March 11, 2011 http://en.rian.ru/world/20110311/162963176.html Connection to Domodedovo airport attack, sanctions, terror groups, etc.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.242.133 (talk) 22:00, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Surrender
Allright we seem to be going through an edit war with regards to whether Doku surrendered or not. I'm changing the article to state that he was reported to have surrendered. Here is my citation:

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-08-18T110904Z_01_L18593319_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-RUSSIA-CHECHNYA-COL.XML

If you have any information that indicates this report is false (a statement by his organization, news agency, etc.) please post it.


 * Where's the rolleyes icon when it's needed? --HanzoHattori 13:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry I had the audacity to ask that you actually cite something that contradicted initial reports. Please forgive me.68.203.127.188 14:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it is his younger brother that surrendered Chechen rebels surrender Rune X2 23:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

kavkazcenter
I don’t think "kavkazcenter" serves as a valid source any more than various Jihadist underground internet sites would be accepted as sources on the 9/11 article.

In addition, you seem to be going for a deliberate biased POV presentation of the case, when you insist on using words like "claimed", "changed once again", "this time claiming". I have provided perfectly reasonable but less POV alternatives, which just as well convey the facts. Plese don't delete Rune X2 11:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

What's the alternative? Chechenpress isn't anymore. Or, wouldn't the man in question allowed to comment on "Doku/Unnamed/Akhmad Umarov's surrender" at all? The silly 9/11 conspiracy theories thing (they just cite some US author or something), even Wikipedia has these. But the important thing is he was abducted and dissapeared in 2005 already. And also, that they are creating confusion on purpose, as they are trying to make the Umarov's men surrender (in the process, they also confusing world media and ordinary people). --HanzoHattori 14:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

People shouldn't take Doku Umarov's words seriously.He's a dictator.

I agree KavkazCenter is hardly a reliable source, but as long as you don't forget to mention it when you've found your information there, I suppose it's ok to use their material. ForrestSjap 21:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC) Kavkaz is a fine source and it may have a slant but it mostly reports the truth .If no reporters are allowed in as is the case in Chechnya sources are harder to find. Kavkaz is often given info by the very people some wiki articles are about because it is trusted by them more then western sites to ignore that is to the detriment of Wikipedia .--74.67.180.229 (talk) 21:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

sources, try Vachagayev?
I agree kavkazcenter is grossly untrustworthy -- even by jihadist standards. Mairbek Vachagayev is in Paris. He used to represent the late Mashkadov. He might know something about Doku Umarov, but how honest he will be about it another question. You can probably reach Vachagayev via the Jamestown Foundation: http://www.jamestown.org/authors_details.php?author_id=237 142.179.124.67 01:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Umarov surrounded
Is that entry really important? We've heard countless stories about Chechen leaders being surrounded by Russian forces throughout the war and almost nothing ever comes from them. And this is what, the 15th time he's been wounded? The guy must be a walking mass of scar tissue by now. DarthJesus 02:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know yet. But it's true, when they kill a leader they usually do it in a sudden safehouse raid, or by chance. Kavkaz Center nowadays, between things like "Mossad Killed Hundreds Iraqi Intellectuals" and "Russian Police Is a Huge Gang of Sadists, Murderers, Rapists", would write only this - and they wonder the agencies won't quote them? --HanzoHattori 07:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Umarov declared "Emirate", abandoned presidency
http://www.chechenpress.co.uk/english/news/2007/10/31/05.shtml --HanzoHattori 15:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a tragedy. ForrestSjap 19:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

We should probably write about the political crisis in Chechen Republic of Ichkeria. --HanzoHattori 15:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should, but it is a very tricky situation. We'll have to choose our words carefully or maybe even wait a little untill more information is available. Did you read these? ForrestSjap 21:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Caucasian Emirate article?
Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and Islamic Emirate of Waziristan have their articles. --HanzoHattori (talk) 13:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think an article about the Caucasian Emirate should be created.ForrestSjap (talk) 16:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Kavkaz Center is their official news outlet, publishing decrees and what not. Also, it's quite funny how they publish other people's analyses on them, but the article is quite informative from NPOV. --HanzoHattori (talk) 13:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Cleaned up
And added the thing he is charged only with the publications on the Internet and not even formally wanted at all. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 09:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) DumZiBoT (talk) 04:22, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "ft" :

Still a Sufi?
Or maybe rather a Salafi now? --82.160.239.145 (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Recent changes
One questionable edit was about the alleged involvement of Umarov in Beslan massacre. All hostage takers were killed and only one arrested according to the official version. Right? This is something he denied. This is something he publicly denounced .Biophys (talk) 20:43, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * What's the problem? Are we to ignore what hostages said and take his word as the unquestionable truth (even though he claims there are no civilians in Russia)? Are we to only present the "official story" and ignore other versions? According to the article: According to the official version of events, 32 militants participated directly in the seizure, one of whom was taken alive while the rest were killed on spot (...) The September 3-4 government statements said total of 26-27 militants were killed during the siege. (...)Many of the surviving hostages and eyewitnesses claim there were many more captors, some of whom may have escaped.


 * So what do you suggest? LokiiT (talk) 21:04, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The official numbers have been adjusted, but the personal presence of Umarov at school contradicts the both official and unofficial versions. Franky, speaking this is all bullshit, just like bombing of the Nevsky express by him.Biophys (talk) 21:23, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No I'm sure it was the FSB who blew the train up. It must have been that evil Putin at it again. Quite frankly, though, your opinion on the matter is unimportant and doesn't belong here. LokiiT (talk) 21:30, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not my opinion; that's official version of events in Beslan. As about the FSB, yes, you are right on the target, according to many sources.Biophys (talk) 21:36, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm sure many sources like Boris Berezovsky and that guy whose book he funded. No surprise you believe it. So you want to believe the official version for one event (because it coincides with your ideology), but you believe the conspiracy theory for others and call the official version a lie (because it coincides with your ideology). Your only consistency is that you believe whatever version that casts the Russian state as the bad guy and the terrorists as the innocent, brave heroes. This is why your opinion that this is "bullshit" is irrelevant.


 * Now do you have a suggestion for the article or not? Why did you bring this up? We are not to ignore what hostages themselves say. LokiiT (talk) 21:49, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Please provide a reliable source that substantiates your claim in your latest edit (ie. that the "official investigation" dismisses his presence. LokiiT (talk) 23:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That's every source which refers to the official version of events in Beslan. Let's take random book. "Kremlin is rising" by Baker and Glasser (nothing special), page 33. "Of the thirty two terrorists, according to official accounts, thirty were killed." Nur-Pashi Kulayev was arrested, and another man was killed by the mob (according to official accounts!), book tells.Biophys (talk) 01:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And why do you suddenly believe what the Russian government officially reports? Why would you dismiss what hostages themselves say? You're not making a convincing argument. LokiiT (talk) 01:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are two alternative versions (second by the Voice of Beslan). But they both reject the involvement of Umarov. According to the version by "Mothers of Beslan", many of the hostage takers have been released from the prisons by Russian authorities who knew about this "action" in advance. Then, the hostage-takers were led by Vladimir Khodov and other undercover FSB infiltrators. But this is different article.Biophys (talk) 02:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That doesn't change the fact that surviving hostages say they saw him. Whether or not they're mistaken is besides the point. LokiiT (talk) 02:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * There were three official and partly conflicting investigations, but none of them claimed Umarov to be involved. Should not to be included in BLP at all - see also WP:NPOV.Biophys (talk) 03:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. I can't argue at talk page of Future Perfect, but "there are no civilians in Russia" is citation out of context. Whitewashing of criminals is the last thing I want to do, but we must provide factual information rather than propaganda (like his involvement in Beslan).Biophys (talk) 19:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No it's not out of context. It means exactly what it says. This is factual information; he said it himself. At the very worst, he's admitting to being a terrorist. At the very least, he's completely contradicting himself. Either way it is important for readers to know his entire views on attacks against civilians rather than the cherry picked statement "he publicly rejected attacks on civilians", which of course means absolutely nothing given his views on Russian non-civilians. Now would you like to remove all mention of his views on attacks against civilians from the intro? That we can discuss if you want. LokiiT (talk) 19:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not a fact, but his opinion. And that's a BLP article. Would I like to remove anything from introduction? No, I would like you to stop painting people in this project as terrorism supporters. There are no such here.Biophys (talk) 20:26, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Good source: Caucasus Emirate, a state that does not exist (Russian). That's dramatic:

Ахмед Закаев сделал все, чтобы чеченский сепаратизм имел на мировой арене достойное лицо, чтобы его представители были рукопожатными фигурами, самостоятельными политическими акторами, а проблемы чеченцев вызывали сочувствие. Они имели возможность быть услышанными во всем мире.

И тут в один миг Докку Умаров все это перечеркнул.

Новый амир Кавказа выбрал диаметрально противоположные ориентиры, сделав ставку на терроризм и бесконечную войну с неверными — не ради справедливости, а из принципа. Смерть провозглашалась самоценностью — а весь цивилизованный мир в холодный пот бросает от такой позиции. Зато многочисленные экстремистские исламские организации очень заинтересовались новым проектом на российском Кавказе.

Закаев сразу назвал провозглашение Имарата провокацией против чеченского народа с целью дискредитации идеи об отделении Чечни от России. Он даже заявил, что такие серьезные подвижки в политике подполья были спродюсированы российскими спецслужбами. Они в итоге получили управляемого врага, с которым можно биться любыми методами.

В августе 2009 года Высший шариатский суд под председательством Анзора Астемирова вынес смертный приговор Ахмеду Закаеву — за отступление от норм ислама. Biophys (talk) 20:46, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Source
Holbrooke to lighten terror list of Taliban. -Shootbamboo (talk) 21:22, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I stuffed up the article
I tried to add romanisations of Umarov's name, but I stuffed up the article, and now I can't change it back due to the link to the Kavkaz Centre. Can someone please fix this? FokkerTISM 05:25, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Nationality
This article have many trust and neutrality problems. His nationality is set as Chechen. Which are not and never have been a nation. This should be Russian. Hockhult, 27/2 2012 —Preceding undated comment added 16:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC).
 * COUNTRY. Not nation. The nation is the Chechen people. Aka ethnicity. HammerFilmFan (talk) 13:44, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You are simply stating an opinion, and a Russian nationalist opinion at that, and have offered no good reason to change the article. ---  RepublicanJacobite  TheFortyFive 01:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, apart from the fact most Russians wouldn't even consider Umarov to be Russian. Which reliable sources confirm he is Russian? Moreover, do reliable sources even refer to him as Russian on a regular basis? Putting the nationality of the current Chechen separatist leader as "Russian" can't be seen in any sort of positive light. 2 lines of K  303  09:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I do not see it as an opinion that he is not a citizen of a made up state. Since Chechnya has no legal status and is not recognised as a nation, it can not have citizens. I think you need to learn the difference between Nationality and Ethnicity. Hockhult — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.72.104.80 (talk) 04:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hockhult, Umarov spent his life fighting against Russia. It would be very strange and innacurate to say that he is Russian.Cosainsé (talk) 21:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

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I still don't think Wikipedia should be like 'yep, totally dead' without a real confirmation
Especially since he was not only killed repeatedly but also had things like http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2010/08/04/doku-umarov-un-resigns-i-was-kidding/ going on on the internet (and specifically kavkazcenter and youtube). --Niemti (talk) 08:54, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Btw, first Wikipedia declares kavkazcenter blacklisted for some reason, and then relies on it 100%. --Niemti (talk) 09:04, 20 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Then you should comment here. Yes, even Medvedev denied that he is dead. This is "a possibly living person".My very best wishes (talk) 13:25, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

As the other WP noted in their report, "Umarov, 49, may still be alive. Or he may have died some time ago." All about it is just guessing until there's a hard proof, or at least any details for the story. --Niemti (talk) 17:18, 20 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... Perhaps you are right. It tells: Umarov has been at the center of one of the recent disputes between Russia and Ukraine. Moscow accused Ukrainian right-wing nationalist leader Dmytro Yarosh of calling on Umarov to attack Russia. Yarosh denies it. Russia has opened a criminal proceeding against him, though he is in Kiev. Even if he is actually dead, he is still politically alive.My very best wishes (talk) 17:40, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

You know, they've already gone to Interpol with this and "also decided to try Yarosh in court in absentia": http://in.news.yahoo.com/russia-issues-arrest-warrant-ukrainian-leader-123405426.html --Niemti (talk) 18:19, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

The FSB has confirmed his death. You were wrong, mate. --96.59.223.143 (talk) 17:34, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

In addition, the Rewards for Justice program finally removed him from their wanted list. They only do that when a terrorist is 100% confirmed dead.

http://www.rewardsforjustice.net/english/most-wanted/all-regions.html

--96.59.223.143 (talk) 15:20, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
 * "They only do that when a terrorist is 100% confirmed dead." And how exactly do you know that?  His absence from that list is only proof that he is no longer on the wanted list,  not that he is dead.  --P123ct1 (talk) 19:26, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
 * What is a "Real confirmation" of death anyway? The Caucasus Emirate say he is dead, as do the FSB and Kadyrov. Media sources like the BBC have reported his death, and Kavkaz Center even has video footage of his funeral (Can't be linked as the site is blacklisted by Wikipedia) Gazkthul (talk) 05:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

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