Talk:Dolf Kessler

Major Error with this article!
I keep trying to correct this but other users keep switching it back. Here is the problem: there were two famous Dutchmen named Geldolph Adriaan Kessler, one a soccer player and the other an industrialist. This biography combines them into one person. The birthdate and date of death, paragraphs 2 and 4, all relate to the industrialist, NOT the footballer. They should be deleted from this biography.

I have created a new page for the industrialist. This page should be delinked to his father (Jean Baptiste August Kessler, the founder of Royal Dutch Shell), so that page can be linked to the new one for the industrialist. You need to add in the correct birthdates, etc for the footballer. I think he died in 1943, not 1945, for instance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aadelse (talk • contribs) 04:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

—— Why do you think so? I can find no evidence that these were two persons. This guy was a soccer player first, and after a serious injury went into industry. It was one guy with two careers. 193.176.235.94 (talk) 11:36, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

—— Okay, I think I have some proof here. Take a look at these two photo's: [http://beeldbank.nationaalarchief.nl/na:col1:dat502722 Photo of the Dutch soccer team in 1905. The fourth guy from the right, is identified in the extra information as Dolf Kessler] The picture from the Dutch Biographical database of Geldolph Kessler the industrialist

If you compare them, you can easily see that they are the same person. The industralist looks older, but that is logical since he was older when he led the Hoogovens. 193.176.235.94 (talk) 11:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

—— LoL! I just discovered that his younger brother Boelie Kessler, who was also a soccer player, switched careers to become an Opthawhajamacallit... Eye-doctor... 193.176.235.94 (talk) 16:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

--- Again, this is not the same person. If you read his full bio on the Dutch website a) it makes NO mention of his alleged soccer career and b) makes it clear that he was working from an early age at the Royal Dutch, which his father established. His younger brother was named after his father, Jean Baptise August Kessler, who later became head of the Royal Dutch. G.A. Kessler, as the oldest son, was logically expected to become head of the Royal Dutch but he chafed under the rule of Henri Deterding and quit to start the steel business, on the urging of his fiancee, who told him to make a choice between her and his job. Not a single history of Royal Dutch, and there are many, makes any reference to him having a career in soccer. The pictures may look similar but they are not the same person; I would think the fact that one had a brother in the soccer biz and the other had a brother in the oil biz should help cinch it. Moreover, the Dutch bio says the steel Kessler graduated from Delft in 1907. This is a five year program, whereas the soccer Kessler was playing soccer up until 2006. Are we to believe he managed to get a five year degree from the MIT of Holland in just one year? The soccer Kessler died in 1942 or 1943, according to some accounts on the web.
 * His soccer career was brief and amateur; why couldn't be be a player and an industrialist at the same time? In other news, a related discussion has been started here. Regards, GiantSnowman 01:22, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

- Well, this is curious. The fact that it is amateur is a good point. I will investigate further myself. - His soccer career was professional on some level. He was captain of the national team, that is certainly not amateur. But it was only the beginning of soccer in the Netherlands, so the organization was still very amateuristic. I guess there was a lot less training, so players could have had time to study. (Which explains Dolf studying in Delft and his soccer-playing brother becoming an eye-docter).

The Dutch article does not mention his soccer career indeed. But it also says his industrial career started after 1907, the year in which he graduated. And Dolf Kessler stops playing soccer after in injury in 1906! That would be a strange coincidence: one Kessler disappearing from the national scene, while another appears at the exact same moment.

Also, you mention differing death dates. That might be so, but the web seems to be unanimous about the date and place of birth: both G.A. Kesslers are said to have been born 2 April 1884 in Batavia, Dutch East Indies. It seems very unlikely to me that two men, sharing the same names, would be born at the same time in the same place.

And now for my 'piece de resistance': the [Kessler Foundation] It mentions that the foundation is named after D.A.J. Kessler, the father of Tonny and Dé, the uncle of Dolf and Boelie. It also mentions that D.A.J. worked in the Dutch East Indies with his brother J.B. August...

So Dolf the soccer player had father who's name was J.B. August. And Geldolph the industrialist had a father called Jean Baptiste August. Sounds to me like one and the same guy.

Anyway, the familytree as far as I have been able to reconstruct it:

Jean Baptiste August Sr. had 4 sons: JBA Sr also had a brother: Dominicus Antonius Josephus, and (at least) two nephews:
 * Geldolph Adriaan a.k.a. Dolf (1884-1945) - Soccer player and industrialist (at hoogovens)
 * Jean Baptiste August Jr. (1888-1972) - Industralist (at Royal Dutch)
 * Johan Herman (1892-????)
 * Hermanus Johannes a.k.a. Boelie (1896-1971) - Soccer player and eye-doctor
 * Hermann Anton Joseph a.k.a. Tonny - Soccer player
 * Johan Heinrich Hermann a.k.a. Dé - Soccer player and cricketer

193.176.235.94 (talk) 09:11, 18 November 2010 (UTC)


 * This website confirms they are the same person. GiantSnowman 14:10, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

-- Bravo, excellent research. My apologies, I agree this appears to be one and the same. To Giant Snowman, I would argue that he is better known as the industralist, not the football player, and that perhaps should be emphasized, or at least mentioned in the first paragragh. I won't mess with that--it's up to you, just my suggestion--but I would also like to add something about how his wife urged him to quit the Royal Dutch: As Joost Jonker and Jan Luiten van Zanden write in A History of the Royal Dutch Shell (Oxford University Press, 2007), his fiancee, Elizabeth Stoop (herself a daughter of a prominent oil explorer, Adriaan Stoop), "put his love for her to the test by asking him to choose between her and the Group." (page 357, Vol. 1) This has been deleted when I have tried to add it before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aadelse (talk • contribs) 15:45, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

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