Talk:Dom people

links to here from searches of other titles such as Ghorbati
there are many titles for the Dom / domii / dombii tribes such as Ghorbati. Infact many Doms do not use this word. Links to this page and mention of the other name whould be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 (talk) 16:15, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Removal of the statement about Dom being same as Rom(a)
I propose that unless someone can provide a good reason, the (apparently false) statement about the Dom/Rom relationship be removed from both this page and the Roma People page.

From Dr W.R. Rishi in regard to the Roma:

"Please do not - repeat - not connect them with the Doms, a lower case in India. Please do not distort their name to be pronounced and written as "Rrom" and thus do not falsify their history. It is the duty if Romani media to use ROM as their proper name and not "Rrom" as wrongly advocated by so called "neo-linguists"."

from Roma Nos 42-43, January-July 1995

(But I got it from: http://www.romani.org/rishi/romrroma.html ) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.240.91.230 (talk • contribs) 13:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. I don't think it's appropriate not to mention the fact that the Dom are universally regarded as part of the larger Roma ethnic group, though you may want to add that some Roma don't consider themselves connected with the Dom. The Dom of this article are not simply a "lower caste" in India. This article deals mainly with the groups outside India. Linguistic research shows that the Domari and Romani languages split from a common ancestor in the distant past. See the Dom Research Center for more information about the Dom's relationship to the Roma. &mdash; [ zɪʔɾɪdəʰ ]   ·    ☥   21:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 21:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Evidence that Dom and Romani people are not related
The Romani language is from a much later time period of India than that of the Domari original source. The Romani language is very much a Rajasthani language that has gone through Panjabi regional changes. The Domari language is from a different origin to Romani and is more Hindi based.

I will give example

ENGLISH        ROMANI          PANJABI          HINDI          DOMARI Brother        Phral / Phal*   Phra / Pha (ji)  Bhai           Bharos Sister         Phen            Phen             Bhen           Bhenos Horse          Khuro           Khora            Ghora          Ghoryos There          Ote             Ote              Udhar          Hundar

* The English Roms gave the English the word 'Pal' for friend.

'''I must wonder why... because is taken from english maybe? I see the similarities between the languages obvius, why are you trying to lie?' - try studying the languages (Romani, Domari, Hindi, Rajasthani & Panjabi will be enough for now) then you will not have made this remark of it being a lie. Even if you are not fluent there is enough literature out there to study the words.''

In addition to this Romani uses the Rajasthani / Rajputi mascaline 'o' at the end of words whereas Domari like most other Hindi styled languages use the normal 'a'.

e.g.             ENGLISH          ROMANI          RAJASTHANI Uncle           Kako            Kako           (Domari = Mamun) Fat man         Thulo           Thelo Hot             Tato            Tato Infant boy      Tikno           Tingar My              Miro            Mero           (Domari = Mura, Hindi = Mera) Dirty / greasy  Chikno          Chikano

Lies, Dom = Rom = The same
What a bunch of lies... are you seriosus with that source? the hungarian-"doma" Ian Hancock is trying fo falsify history, it can't be taken as a source, any hungarian related sources regarding Gypsies are not reliabe. Hungarians are Romanians most fiercefull enemies and their interest is to proove the name of gypsies is "romani".

Philologists, who study and analyse languages and their origins, have compared the language that the gypsies speak with Indian languages, and suggest from the similarities that the gypsies originated in the Gangetic plains, from a low caste called Doms and are thus called Roma. This is what the gypsies call themselves, hence the term Roma or Romani gypsies — no connection to Rome or Romania.

http://www.hindu.com/seta/2005/11/17/stories/2005111700041500.htm

Fact supported by Gypsy Linguist from Romania

http://www.cotidianul.ro/index.php?id=15509&art=38690&cHash=e875537b68

Dupa cea mai bine documentata ipoteza [nota 4], termenul provine din cuvantul prakrit "dom" (cu d celebralizat), care insemna "om" si se referea, pe de-o parte, la imigrantii indieni provenind din diverse grupuri etnice, care s-au amestecat si au realizat casatorii mixte in Persia, formandu-se ca popor acolo si pornind apoi spre Europa, iar, pe de alta parte, la un subgrup etnic din India, care exista si astazi.

The most well documented theory is that the term "rom" comes from prakrit "dom" which means man and it reffers on one part of the indian emmigrants coming from varius ethnic groups which mixed in Persia then aheading Europe. On the other part is an indian subgroup from India even in present.

''This "well documented theory is that the term "rom" comes from prakrit "dom" which means man" has no real research and evidence when carried throught to a more indepth study. The research and evidence is based solely on the sound of the two words in the English pronounciation and understanding of the words. The only other evidence is the fact that the two have similarities due to them both being Indian in origin. The evidence used is no different to comparing a Bangladeshi living in Europe to a Panjabi living in Europe - both have words in their langue the same, both have a tendancy to work in family shops and both eat rice and similar food and have certain similar customs. A more indepth study of Indian language and customs etc will uncover that the two are not so related other than they are both from the Indian sub-continent. The Ghorbati / Domari speak a language of a different origin to that of the Roms so this in itself proves the two lived independent of each other for some considerable time whilst back in India. In Domari legend they have stories similar to that of the Luri becoming musicians for the king of Persia so it is safe to include this in the Domari section. The Roms however have much more evidence to suggest a much later seperation from India. Roms have many cultural similarities with Rajputs or Banjara and speak words of a definate Panjabi origin. Certain facts in the Romani linguistics and customs point to a possible military origin. Banjara are recorded to have served amongst the miltary ranks alongside Rajputs. The Rajputs were also called Lambadi / Laman /Lamana / Lamani which would explain the possibility of a connection with the Lomavren of Armenia who could have left India at the same time as the Roms but broke away on route into Asia minor (Turkey). So all we are left with in the way of evidence of the dom = rom theory is the fact they are noth of Indian origin (even though hundred of years apart) and the word Rom and Dom in the English use sound similar. It is more likey that the word Rom as in Roman (o/i/e) comes from the Sanskrit word Raman and Lom coms from Lambadi.

Another obvious overlooked fact is if the Roms are Doms who left at a later time, then why did they leave at a time of hostility in the direction of the enemy? If Banjara and Rajput served i war and followed the silk roads west (or as armies employed as slave soldiers) then it gives explainations the why they came to be in Turkey.'' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 (talk) 09:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

so the connection between rom and dom is evident. "rom" doesn't exist in gypsy language, the real word is dom. When this lies will stop ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrianzax (talk • contribs) 14:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Actaully I am from a Romani family of Europe and I am fluent in the Romani jib (tongue). Rom in Romani means 'Husband'. Manush means 'man'. The Sanskrit word Raman also means Husband. Romani for son is 'Chavo' and a non-romani boy is Raklo. Phral / Phal (from Panjabi - phra / Pha) means brother. Phen (from Panjabi Phen) means sister. These words in Domari are from a different India root as are many more.

It is the Dom = Rom lies that must stop. If Roms & Doms are related then they are related from before leaving India as there paths since leaving India are proven to not be the same. Roms did not break away from Doms as this is definetely proven to not be the case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 23:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a horribly written article, with very unreliable sources. The Dom Research Center seems to be quite an unreliable source for this article, as the source itself seems to be confused over the differences between Dom and Romani. Wikipedia's Romani article claims that the Gypsies living in Greece (which is not in the Middle East, btw) and the Gypsies living in Turkey are Romani, while the Dom article claims that those same populations are Dom. Both articles claim Greece's population of ~200,000 Gypsies. The Dom Research Center itself -used as a source for the Dom article- doesn't even clarify if the Gypsies of Greece are Dom or Romani. It just simply states that there's "200,000 Gypsies" (yes, it uses the word Gypsies) living in Greece according to Greek state statistics. So which one is it? Are these people Romani or Dom? I always though that the Gypsies of Greece were Roma-Romani..or at least that's what they claim themselves. Skyduster (talk) 23:03, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you
Thank you for being correct in the discription and not calling these people "Gypsies" as they have never been to Europe and were mistaken as being Egyptian. There is no evidence to prove any connection between Doms of Asia and the Romani people of Europe other than an Indian origin. There is however evidence to prove the languages have different Indian origins. Many of the Romani words and grammar are of different Indian origin to the Domari words.

Thankyou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 23:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Dom Research Center, which is used as a source for this article, defines these populations as "Middle East and North Africa Gypsies". There seems to be some confusion here. Skyduster (talk) 23:07, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

The Domari originally accepted into Persian empire as musicians
It is a fair possibility that the Domi were the same people mentioned in the document dated 961AD written by Persian historian Hamza al-Isfahani reporting that between 429-438AD Shah Bahram V. Gur brought 12,000 Luri singers to Persian from India.

Amongst Gurbati Doms of Iran and Afghanisthan there are many similar tales to the one descibed by Hamza. Some exactly identical and others similar such as saying they descend from a Persian King who disrespected the prophet Mohammed and so were condemned to a nomadic life.

The Luri it seems became an acepted part of the Persian empire who would have been part of the Persian people at the time that Islam advanced upon the land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 20:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Indian Origin
If they are of Indian origin, there is hardly anything in the article itself pointing to this. And also, they are NOT the same as the Romani people. --Maurice45 (talk) 15:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Origin in accordance to themselves
According to the book "People On the Move, introducing the Nomads of the world" by David J. Phillips and published by Piquant in 2001;

"Ghorbati, Afghanistan

According to a legend, they believe that they are descended from a Persian King who disrespected the prophet Mohammed and so they were condemned to a nomadic life."

The Luti

"The Luti may be the same as the Ghorbati."

"They are itinerant musicians. They have a tale to explain how they came to Persia to be nomads, and also their disdain for farmers and the settled life. Once upon a time in the fifth century, Bahram Gur the King of Persia requested musicians, Luri, from India and 10,000 were sent. The king was so pleased with their music that he gave them all land, cattle and grain to setlle as farmers and serve as his minstrels. But they were ill-prepared for a farmer's life, and the Luti promptly consumed both the cattle and the grain. This so angered the king that he condemned them to their nomadic existence with nothing but a donkey and their musicial instruments."

"The Luti speak Lur and what some consider a "secret" language amongst themselves, which is possibly the Kurbat dialect of Domari."

Taking this into consideration the Luri (Ghorbati / Dombara) if taken to the Persian empire as musicians would have become an accepted part of the empire providing entertainment for the people. When Islam invaded the Persian ruled empire, the Luri probably supported the Persian king.

Broken link
The link in the ref to the Hancock article currently produces a 404 error. This needs fixing. —Zalktis (talk) 09:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Dom people to Domari people?
Now the the move from "Roma people" to "Romani people" was dome, I wonder whether a "Dom people" to "Domari people" move should be done? Does anybody knows whether Dom/Domari are noun/adjective? AKoan (talk) 13:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Rrom in Romani language does not mean 'Man'
Why it that so many Gaje (non-Romani) try and state this lie that Rom means 'man'. That is like saying that Englishman in English also means man.Englishman means a man of English blood / heritage. Man in English means 'man'.

Rrom is the word for a male within the group. It does not mean 'man'. In Romani we have the word Manush which means man. Saying Rom means man is like saying that Jatt in Panjabi means 'man'. Jatt is the name for a male member of the Jatt lineage and a female is a jattni / Jattani. The same way a male of Romani lineage is a Rrom and a female is a Romni.

The only difference being is that a man within the Romani group is only called a Rrom when he is married and respected. Prior to being a Rrom, a Romani male is called a Chavo which is a word meaning offspring / kinsman / one's own (from Sanskrit sva / sava meaning the same - 's' becomes 'ch' and 'a' became 'o' via Rajasthani regional corruption). Rom also means husband in Romani. The old word for marriage in Romani is "Ramada". English Romani speaking the broken language which mixes Romani with English say it as 'Rommered'. Ram / Raman in Sanskrit also means husband so it is obvious that the root of the word Rom / Roman(o/i/e) is Ram / Raman.

There is also the word Goro / Gero which is a word only used for a non-Romani man (obviously from Indian word Gora meaning 'pale skin')

This whole statement that Rom means man is a lie that got written by someone trying to say Dom = Rom and it has been mistaken as fact and has been wrongly been repeated.

The fact is a Rom is a Romani man the same way an Englishman is a man who is English.

Tsigano (talk) 17:17, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

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"Htom"?
"The worldwide used name for Gypsies to identify themselves is the term "Htom" This is nonsense and the source given for that is rather obscure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.173.151.29 (talk) 22:37, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

"Dravidian ethnic group" ?
In what sense are they a "Dravidian" ethnic group? Certainly not linguistically if they speak an Indo-European language. Dravidian is not a racial term (Brahui people are Davidian because of the language they speak, but do not look like darker skinned South Indians).
 * Malaiya (talk) 23:13, 30 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I second that. THere is no evidence of them being Dravidian. Linguistically they are Indo-Aryan like most people originating in the North of Indian subcontinent. This passage should be removed.
 * --xRiffRaffx (talk) 08:02, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 20 May 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Skarmory   (talk •   contribs)  00:57, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

– Insufficient disambiguation. This article is about a Romani people while the latter is about an Indian caste of West Bengal. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 13:26, 20 May 2022 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Dom people → Doms (Romani)
 * Doms → Doms (Bengali)
 * Support per nomination. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 15:51, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.In ictu oculi (talk) 19:34, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Title change
The title was changed from "Dom people" to "Doms (Romani)". However, according to the article: "Initially, it was believed that they were a branch of the Romani people, but recent studies of the Domari language suggest that they departed from the Indian subcontinent[1] later than the Romani"

As far as I know, there's no clear evidence that Doms are Romani or that they identify as such. And Ethnologue does not consider the Domari language to be part of the Romani sub-family ( https://www.ethnologue.com/subgroups/western-21 ).

I recommend the name to be changed back to "Dom people". Or "Domari people" or any other name that doesn't mention Romani people.

What do you think @LaundryPizza03 @CX Zoom @In ictu oculi? A455bcd9 (talk) 07:39, 29 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I checked more sources: they all consider that Doms and Roms are different ethnic groups. I added some of these sources to Doms (Romani) and Domari language. A455bcd9 (talk) 08:21, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not very supportive of using "people" as a disambiguator given the conflict with Doms (Bengali), but if Romani is an inherently incorrect disambiguator, I'd like to ask others for alternative ideas, and if there aren't any, I'd support a move to the old title. I may suggest "Doms (Middle-east)" or "Doms (MENA)" per their current geographic distribution. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 10:32, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. Dom (Middle East) (without the 's') would be an improvement. However, neither 'Middle East' nor 'MENA' include Azerbaijan and Afghanistan where Dom seem to be present (source: Azerbaijan, Afghanistan). A455bcd9 (talk) 11:21, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Dom seem to be mostly in the Middle East though: "Very little is known about the history of the Dōm and much of what is stated about them relies on linguistic evidence. The language is known to be spoken in Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey and probably also Iraq and Iran, although there is no direct evidence that Domari is still spoken in these last two countries (see below). The so-called Gypsies of Egypt (ġaǧar in Modern Standard Arabic) and the Ḥalab of Sudan both speak Arabic but kept a secret lexicon, partly based on Domari (Matras 2006). There are very few reliable figures about the number of Dōm, let alone the number of speakers. According to Matras (Matras 1999:4), the Jerusalem community does not exceed 600-700. Other figures are given by Meyer for Damascus about which he says that “In Sayyida Zaineb, the largest Dōm settlement, their number lies between 4000 and 10000” (Meyer 2004:76). The other Dōm population for which I was given estimations is that of the Diyarbakir province in eastern Turkey where their number is believed to be 14000, of which 3000 are in the city of Diyarbakir itself (Adrian Marsh, p.c.). The Dōm community of Aleppo is probably one of the biggest in Syria and it is very plausible that their number exceeds a couple of thousand. In Syria, apart from Damascus and Aleppo, other groups are reported mainly in Ḥomṣ and Latakieh."
 * So Dom (Middle East) is probably fine. A455bcd9 (talk) 11:25, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
 * As I wrote in Talk:Doms (Bengali) it looks like "Bengali" is as wrong as "Romani". So I would suggest:
 * Doms (Romani) → Dom (Middle East)
 * Merge Doms (Bengali) and Domba
 * Doms (Bengali)/Domba → Dom (Hindu caste) or Dom (Indian subcontinent) or Dom (South Asia)
 * Doms → DAB?
 * What do you think? A455bcd9 (talk) 17:11, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Religion
Which reliable source is given that Domari are have jewish religion or christian religion? Since when and where, and which Dom group? Where in Israel are domari groups who are jews? Where in egypt, domari are christian like the copts? In this source its clearly given the Domari in Israel are Muslim and speak Arabic https://www.domarisociety.com/what-is-domari Also in this source in germany the domari are given as Muslim, only trigh evangelical christian mission some families became christians. https://www.30tagegebet.de/archiv/gebetskalender-2017/die-domari-im-nahen-osten/

Rom baro (talk) 12:31, 8 January 2023 (UTC)