Talk:Domenico Scarlatti

Goldberg influence claim
Is there any evidence to suggest that Bach's Goldberg Variations were actually influenced by the Scarlatti's sonatas? The sonatas are not variations on a common theme like the Goldbergs, although they have some similarity in form to an individual variation (AA-BB). Is it known if JSB had access to the Scarlatti sonatas? If not, I suggest that the reference to the Goldbergs is removed? Does anyone know where this idea originated? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.133.192.115 (talk) 13:47, 21 June 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest that their form is :a b (in new key, sometimes related to a): :c (relates to a or to b) b':, and is a precursor if anything of sonata form rather. (This is true of certain other works of the period, I agree.) Don't know about the rest, I knew Brahms had a collection of Scarlatti but not whether JS Bach did... worth looking into. Schissel : bowl listen 14:01, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)


 * It is not so much about form, really, it is about the technical similarities (the crossing of the hands). Even so, both the Scarlatti Sonatas and the Goldbergs are in binary form, essentially A:B, but you repeat both halves, so really it is A : A : B : B. I agree that there is no evidence, however, that Bach was actually "under the influence." (Haha alcohol pun intended.) --Patrick 01:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You are correct pointing out that Brahms was a well known admirer of Scarlatti and had editions of his works - he even quoted the theme of Kk 223(?) in the opening of one of his songs (Unuberwindlich Op.72 No.5). I think I recall reading somewhere that Chopin was also an admirer. But--- I don't think we will ever know for sure if JSB was aware of Scarlatti's works, and on balance I think it has to be considered unlikely for the following reasons: 1. Scarlatti was essentially isolated in the service of Barbara. 2. All communications were comparitively very poor in the late 18C. 3. Very little of Scarlatti's works were published in JSB's lifetime. 4. I still can't see a direct link between the two (the basic form is not uncommon) - perhaps someone can point it out please!? Personally, I think that the supposed influence of Scarlatti on the Goldbergs is yet another myth associated with this astonishing work (along with a whole load of supposed "numerology" and other weird stuff - which would surely have hugely amused JSB!). Scarlatti's sonatas are surely great enough to stand on their own without having to be considered an influence on the (even greater) Goldbergs? --bobg1756 09:33, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * About the note on Chopin, I remember Vladimir Horowitz once said that Chopin's students asked their teacher why they always had to play Scarlatti. Chopin replied something like that one day, Scarlatti would be in the repertoire of all concert pianists. And now that's true. &mdash; Pladask 09:50, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

The supposition that JSB wasn't aware of Scarlatti's works doesn't hold up for several good counts. Scarlatti was widely known while in the service of the Queen and, late in life, he retired enough from his work to travel a great deal. Communications may have been poor in the late 18th century, but not impossible. JSB was a very astute politician as well as a musician: he kept track of all potential rivals and he was certainly very aware of the works of his Italian contemporaries, especially Vivaldi and Marcello, enough to write numerous transcriptions of their compositions. As for the lack of published scores, that is not a great obstacle. Many works were copied by hand, either from the original manuscript or by musicians who memorized the score after hearing it performed, and circulated that way. But a better argument that Scarlatti didn't influence JSB is a matter of style and form: a glance at their scores and biographies show two men opposite in countless ways, both stylistically and in personality. Also, Scarlatti showed no interest that I know of in theme and variations or the other forms Bach used regularly. Scarlatti and Bach were great within their own respective realms, and while probably aware of each other, it's doubtful that one exterted any noticeable influence on the other. --Mhare40 21:26, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Recordings of the Sonatas
What are the criteria for including recordings and performers in this section? Why Fabio Bonizzoni and not, say, Wanda Landowska? There's been a lengthy list of estimable performers and discographies are available elsewhere (hypocritically says an editor who's started and contributed to many lists indeed here, but it seems that this is intended to be a selective list.) Schissel : bowl listen 16:48, July 15, 2005 (UTC)


 * I've rewritten into a regular paragraph. This way it's easier to keep the number of musicians down to a selected few (perhaps based on ... well ... "notability" or "famousness" or whatever). Do you like this better? Feel free to add/re-add names. &mdash; Pladask 20:38, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

For various reasons, the listing of pianists who have recorded Scarlatti is sparse. There are some whose Scarlatti recordings are almost legendary: Dinu Lipatti, Myra Hess, Clara Haskil, Vladimir Horowitz, Ivo Pogorelich, Mikhail Pletnev, John Browning, and Alexis Weissenberg. Among harpsicordists, the list is even more select. I suppose it comes down to pointing out the most notable or famous, which is difficult because Scarlatti seems to attract the best artists. Mhare40 —Preceding undated comment added 02:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The section on recordings is particularly weak. Horowitz? Great. He's even historically important as being pretty much THE GUY who rediscovered Scarlatti for the 20th Century. But, as asked above, what IS the criterion for inclusion in this section? I did clean up some of the grammar but the section is still not beautifully well-written. Gingermint (talk) 02:53, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * When was Horowitz's first recording of a significant number of sonatas? (Gilels and other well-known pianists included them in recorded recitals probably before that, so significant number seems important here.) Was it before Kirkpatrick's of 60 of them (who also wrote an important book way back in 1953...), say? ELSchissel (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

good article
Lots of excellent information and a nice read; very satisfying to this Scarlatti fan (who didn't know all the trivia). I value Scarlatti's "outsider" status in the classical music canon and am pleased to see that reflected here.

I have some questions: how good a keyboardist was Princess Barbara? Her own entry says she "had a fine education and loved music," but isn't more specific. Were the famous "Essercizi" (Sonatas) written for her use, as piano students are traditionally told, or do they more accurately reflect Scarlatti's own virtuosic abilities? The origins of the "Essercizi" are shrouded in myth, at least for me. Does anyone have any better sources? Sandover 18:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I was planning to start an article on them ... I'll push it closer to the top of my queue! &mdash; Stumps 20:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

A lot of good information but still could be added to and some improvements made in the writing style.. Gingermint (talk) 02:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and I must point out the obvious. Where does all of this information come from? Just one source? It may be all true but as far as I can tell this is the product the one source sited, a seance and a Ouija board. Gingermint (talk) 03:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Scarlatti's Age
Scarlatti was most prolific and creative beginning in his 50's, which is highly unusual for anyone, let alone a composer or artist. I wonder if this article can mention that somehow. Great article by the way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.229.199.203 (talk) 20:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Wiki-ffiti
I very much doubt Domenico Scarlatti is officially identified as a "poopy-head", I suggest this for editing.


 * It was missed vandalism, but it's fixed now--thanks for noticing it. Antandrus  (talk) 15:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Image
I hadn't looked at this page for a while, and on coming back I was very suspicious of the image at the top. I removed Image:DScarlatti.jpg (and moved the other one up) because it looks modern to me. Does anyone else share my doubts? I shall be pleased if someone can show that it is indeed a contemporary portrait. --RobertG ♬ talk 22:01, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

"the crux"
Where could I find "the crux" marked in a score of Scarlatti's sonata? It is impossible to understand what is it without example. --A1 (talk) 20:33, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the description in the article is quite clear. Based on that description, I looked at the score of a sonata I picked at random (Kk. 103), and the situation in bars 24ff seems to fit the description. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

We can also find the example in B minor sonata (K.377 L.263, around Bar44 - Bar47). There, a crotchet rest was given there in left hand (Bass part) and a quaver rest was given there in right hand (treble part), with an expressive middle-peak terminating in the later of the first half. Then, the theme is going to return to the beginning theme. In daily piano practice, this part is better to be played a rit. in, as for force's releasing and second half's new beginning. From analysis, I think it should be a crux that it was attempting in a procedure - beginning to travel from vivid D major back to the original thinking of b minor, as what 'Home Key' highlighted in our article. To my understanding, applying 'the crux' in the middle is one of the very important characteristics to reveal Domenico Scarlatti's 'historical transitional role with the giftedness' in the period from Baroque style to classical sonata's style. Thanks for this interesting topic. Jason M. C., Han (talk) 01:02, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Comment on Longo vs Kirkpatrick numberings
Moving this meta-comment out of the article to the talk page : "(check sources, The Ralph Kirkpatrick edition is grouped into pairs, while the Longo edition is chronological)" (by 74.118.178.2). Antandrus (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Scott Ross
It would be nice someone would mention the fact that the only harpsichord recording of all 555 sonatas are by Scott Ross. (or at least the first I think) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:2B05:EA00:6835:21A4:E8AB:90E3 (talk) 20:56, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Perhaps earliest but probably not the only, there's a Nimbus Records one that when finished may contain sonatas not among the "555" (since there have been changes in the catalog) . Actually a search on Worldcat for Scarlatti complete reveals completes in progress or already-finished on Nimbus, Stradivarius (different harpsichordists), Naxos, etc. Some of them may take into account scholarly conjecture that some of the works were originally not for harpsichord but, say, in some cases for organ or for violin and continuo, so wouldn't be all-harpsichord sets anyway. Ah. Yes-- in the Brilliant Classics set volume 2: "Sonatas K. 81 and 88-91 for violin and basso continuo.", so a violinist and continuo player are listed as well as a harpsichord player for that volume. Nimbus volume 7 is also continuo sonatas. ELSchissel (talk) 17:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * There's also a set by harpsichordist Luciano Sgrizzi from the early 1980s that - if it was finished - may have predated Scott Ross' 1988 set? (Also on the label Erato, interestingly. Maybe he didn't finish it and they called in Ross instead? I wonder what's up with that...) ELSchissel (talk) 18:02, 17 May 2021 (UTC) Ah, I see: "Complete works for harpsichord (1982; 11 discs containing 185 sonatas)" from his discography here on Wikipedia...

Italian?
The article's lead sentence says flatly that Scarlatti was an Italian composer, but it seems odd: he was Italian-born but lived most of his adult life in Iberia, his music is soaked in Spanish idioms, he eventually married a Spaniard, and his family certainly became Spanish. I hesitate to alter a lead sentence, however.

I'm also surprised to see that Granados is mentioned only in a long list of composers influenced by Scarlatti. There's nothing about his transcriptions, which I believe led to a wider familiarity of 20th and 21st century listeners with Scarlatti's music. Again I hesitate to edit, since I'm far from an expert. Ishboyfay (talk) 05:16, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

More than harpsichord sonatas
This article makes it sound as though Domenico Scarlatti only composed sonatas. Domenico Scarlatti composed more than just harpsichord sonatas; for instance, his Stabat Mater is mentioned in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabat_Mater, or more complete information about his Stabat Mater can be found at https://imslp.org/wiki/Stabat_Mater_(Scarlatti%2C_Domenico). A broader discussion of D.Scarlatti's musical contributions would be useful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.55.210.101 (talk) 20:15, 15 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Not to mention that a number of his sonatas that are usually played as harpsichord sonatas may not have been conceived for the instrument, but possibly e.g. for violin and keyboard, or perhaps for organ, etc. (but I think that is covered in the article now.) ELSchissel (talk) 22:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

There are sections which are not accurate
Especially the section about whom Scarlatti has influenced is not accurate: Had had little to no direct influence on Mozart, Beethoven etc. Mozart has never seen or played a sonata of Scarlatti.

Also it is not evident why a concurrent harpsichordist like Jan-Peter Belder is put in the same section as renown composers? Without diminishing the importance of Belder as instrumentalist, he is not comparable to composers like Bartok, Beethoven etc. This is inaccurate and diminishes the credibility of the article. Compare the article on Scarlatti by Kirkpatrick on Britannica. Spetkoff (talk) 07:24, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

also, the presence of modes does not imply the influence of Iberian folk music. How about Italian liturgical and folk music? ELSchissel (talk) 03:53, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

"Little to no direct influence on.." "Mozart has never seen... a sonata of Scarlatti"-- his father mentions "Scarlatti's fugue" (which Scarlatti is not clear) in a letter to Wolfgang of January 1778. This seems at least reason to look further before saying -never-. (And Czerny wrote a sonata ("Sonate im Style des Domenico Scarlatti", Op.788, published by 1847) in the manner of Scarlatti, so he clearly learned of the works somewhere. Sorry, I'm not convinced by your cursory dismissal.) ELSchissel (talk) 17:42, 17 May 2021 (UTC) (re Czerny: in the same year or so came out Joachim Raff's earlyish work "Den Manen Scarlatti, Scherzo für Pianoforte", Op.26... :) )

Also, what's Clementi's Op.27? "12 Sonates pour clavecin ou forte-piano composées dans le style du célèbre"... ? ... ?? Whether he influenced Mozart or Beethoven is less interesting than whether Scarlatti influenced an era, frankly... ELSchissel (talk) 18:14, 17 May 2021 (UTC)