Talk:Domestic terrorism/Archive 1

Definition
Also, one could label as "Domestic Terrorism" any act committed by anyone towards innocent and respectable citizens of our Country, with the sole purpose of destroying the socio-economic existance of those being attacked, only to benefit the agressor perpetrator in his quest of wealth, professional and social status. A perfect example could be that of an unethical attorney who buys out the legal outcome of a legal battle through even more unethical Judges, when knowingly they both support the guilty wrongdoer. -[User:64.91.212.xxx|64.91.212.xxx]] 02:02, 30 December 2001


 * I think that this is making the definition of "terrorism" way too broad, diluting the term so much that it loses all meaning; by this definition practically _any_ criminal is a terrorist. --Bryan Derksen 09:47, 31 March 2002

"Terrorism" vs. Politically motivated violence
The inclusion of Boston Tea Party as a historical example serves to illustrate the point made later in the article that actions considered in their day to be terrorism may in fact be acts of Politically motivated violence. To exclude this example would bias the article in favor of the viewpoint of the established order of the period under discussion. --AnthonyQBachler 05:58, 20 November 2003

Sarin gas attack
Was the sarin gas attack performed by japanese individuals? if not then it does not qualify as domestic terrorism, I was under the impression (perhaps mistaken) that it was committed by foreigners to that country. --AnthonyQBachler 03:58, 21 November 2003

Blaming foreigners
"Domestic terrorism is generally unexpected: when a terrorist attack occurs often the first reaction is to presume that it was committed by foreigners."

Is this true? It may have been the case in the Oklahoma bombings, but is it generally the case worldwide? I'd say most states with ongoing terrorism problems are being attacked by domestic opposition or independence movements. ETA, the Khmer Rouge, the IRA (who are (mostly) based in Northern Ireland, hence domestic to the United Kingdom), FARC, etc. -194.205.219.2 12:06, 15 June 2004

Socialist attack
"commission of terrorist or socialist attacks"? I do not think the "or socialist" part belongs to the phrase. What is a "socialist attack" anyway? -148.235.87.217 19:47, 18 April 2005


 * Do you think it's fair that socialism be linked to terrorism like that? I'm deleting it. -24.5.130.12 19:53, 18 April 2005

Watts riots
How does the Watts riots count as terrorism? -67.70.51.35 22:41, 18 April 2005

garbling the definition
"All attempts or successes at assassinating government heads or officials are clear examples of domestic terrorism." ... So if Castro or Kruschev killed JFK, that would have been domestic terrorism? --Kwantus 04:25, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)

NPOV of 2nd Amendment Link
At 19:14, 30 September 2005, 67.2.4.137 added the following to this article:


 * However, some uses of the phrase are inappropriate since the intent may not be to scare the whole "domestic" or nation but a subset like its government from inappropriate activities as in the Oklahoma City Bombing in accordance with the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution.

This strikes me as being questionable NPOV, so I moved it to this talk page pending a concensus.--Kralizec! 00:38, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Terrorism rare?
I think the phrase "domestic terrorism is rare in the United States" should be changed to "domestic terrorism is considered rare in the United States." Certainly with the Unabomber, Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph and numerous abortion clinic bombings, the US is at least on par with other democratic Western countries when it comes to domestic terrorism. -Frasor 15:23, 12 November 2005

Clean-up required
Lambiam 20:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) This is not the U.S. Wikipedia, but the English-language Wikipedia. You cannot equate Domestic = U.S.
 * 2) "Domestic terrorism was considered rare in the United States, by those who do not its history well." That is a point of view, but not an encyclopedic statement.
 * 3) Calling riots "terrorism" stretches the meaning of the term beyond the reasonable.
 * 4) What is this nonsense talk about McVeigh being "an Irish-American Catholic from upstate New York". Indeed, there were hardly any Irish-American people from upstate New York that day in the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. Give me a break. "Many said that...", "it should be pointed out that...": No, it should not be pointed out.
 * 5) "Samuel Gompers tearfully insisted..." How is that relevant here?
 * 6) "John and Jim McNamara, two Irish-American brothers." Presumable Clarence Darrow, who was so quick to realize their guilt, was not Irish-American. I bet he wasn't even a Catholic.

Lambiam:
 * 1) Riots easily amount to terrorism when they are pre-planned, politically inspired and cost hundreds of lives and maining and woundings.
 * 2) I did NOT say that the McNamara brothers were Catholic!!! (even though they obviously were), but they were Irish-Americans, so your point is either indicative of some bias, or else nonsense, just as your comments re Darrow's ethnic/religious background which were completely irrelevant. I din't call Darrow a Protestant or a Wasp, although he was, b/c it is/was irrelevant.
 * 3) Samuel Gompers' part was included in the story about the 1910 bombing in the New York Daily News (October 5, 2005), telling a story that probably relatively very few Americans (much less non-US citizens) were/are aware of (including me!!). I didn't know about the incident before I read the paper, and --- you know what -- I really wish I hadn't learned of it, but I did.. And as many people as possible should know about it, and Wikipedia is a fine source.

As far as Timothy McVeigh I will remove the things you referenced, otherwise, there was nothing unfactual, and to my knowledge, nothing unsourced about the piece. However, I always appreciate positive advice and guidance. I never claimed to be perfect.

Yours,

24.136.99.194 21:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I reverted all edits made since Demiurge's version. While I appreciate the work by 24.136.99.194, I believe most of the issues regarding cleanup weren't present before Rms125a@hotmail.com's last reversion, veiled as a minor edit. Because of this, I didn't re-add the tag, though a might not be unwarranted. Deltabeignet 23:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Drfat Riots
You left out one important fact in your very brief mention of the Draft Riots, but I added it. That fact cannot be hidden or obscured; it's non-negotiable. Otherwise, it's OK.

'''The Civil War Draft Riots (1863) -- a period of lethal rioting by Irish immigrants in NYC protesting conscription. Casualties were at least four hundred, outstripping more famous riots such as those in Oakland, Watts, and Attica.'''

63.164.145.33 07:16, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This was reverted dur to seeming OR and a bit POV. -- Scaife    (Talk)  [[Image:Flag_of_Austria.svg|18px|]] Don't forget  Hanlon's Razor  07:42, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Like I said:

'''You left out one important fact in your very brief mention of the Draft Riots, but I added it. That fact cannot be hidden or obscured; it's non-negotiable. Otherwise, it's OK'''.

I fixed it:

'''Civil War Draft Riots (1863) -- a period of lethal rioting by Irish immigrants in NYC protesting conscription. Casualties were at least four hundred, outstripping more famous riots such as those in Oakland, Watts, and Attica.'''

I do not accept political correctness being used as a tool for propaganda and censorship.

That the rioters were Irish is a non-negotiable faact. Read up on it if you are not familiar with the circumstances. 63.164.145.33 11:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

London Bombings 7/7/05
I considered adding the London transport network bombings as and example of domestic terrorism, as it's such a hot topic, I thought it best to check here first. They were orchestrated by a British group, by British citizens, and against the British public. If this example can be added, I think it's a more recent, and more widely know example. JeffUK 22:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Focus of Article
This article seems very focused on Muslim terrorists in the United States. Not only does this focus the Article on the United States instead of a worldwide prospective, it also unfairly biases the article against Muslims. There are many other forms of Homegrown Terrorism in addition to those that are violent Muslim extremists. Zell Faze (talk) 06:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I have to agree. I've just added a link to Domestic terrorism in the United States, which lists various other non-Muslim terrorist attacks that could be listed here. (Although this article attempts to distinguish them, as far as I can tell 'domestic terrorism' and 'homegrown terrorism' are simply different names for the same thing.) Robofish (talk) 22:53, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for adding the link Robofish. I think that the Participants section is also limited in scope and reference. I think that information from Sageman (2004) Understanding Terror Networks would be more informative than the somewhat frivolous quote and passage currently added from a book that was not as well received. Also, the inclusion of other footnotes on the topic of the homegrown terrorist would help round out this passage.Gray106 (talk) 18:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

-Domestic terrorism is typically a phrase used to refer to united states citizens who engage us-based extremist behaviors such a white supremism, black seperatism, extremist anarchism, etc. The focus on muslim terrorists completely defeats the purpose of this article, since domestic terrorists are, by definition, operating without foreign influence-whether tactical or philosophical. Because of this, I believe that Domestic Terrorism and Homegrown Terrorism should be two seperate pages. The domestic terrorism page should focus on acts such as animal enterprise, harassment, intimidation, fraud, etc, which are common methods for domestic terrorist organizations. The homegrown terrorism page can focus on terrorist organizations and acts that operate under any ideology (foreign or domestic), yet are carried out or supported by American citizens. (Waldenowl (talk) 22:28, 7 May 2013 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Waldenowl (talk • contribs) 22:17, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Where is the Oklahoma bombing? This article is simply anti-Muslim propoganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.120.92.24 (talk) 11:09, 6 November 2013 (UTC)


 * This is just anecdotal evidence, but my experience matches what the previous posters have said. "Domestic terrorism" seems to be used mainly for terrorism with no foreign influence whatsoever.  "Homegrown terrorism" seems to be a post "War or Terror" term for foreign-influenced terrorism carried out by your own citizens.  (Also, "Domestic terrorism" seems to be a mainly US term, or at least not one I hear used much in the UK.  "Homegrown terrorism" is commonly used in the uK, and judging by this article in the US too).  In any case, the current article seems to be blending (or flipping between) two distinct concepts without making it clear which concept or definition it is actually about. Iapetus (talk) 15:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Is there an attempt to draw a distinction between 'Domestic' and 'Separatist' terrorism perhaps? From the perspective of the United Kingdom, then those acts committed by British citizens against other British citizen in the Northern Irish 'Troubles' are both Domestic and Terrorism. Perhaps there's a difference in motivation between the IRA and Timothy McVeigh.Nickpheas (talk) 14:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

José Padilla?
I'm curious as to why José Padilla is linked to in this article.. The page for his case only touches on his transportation of marijuana as a truck driver... Hardly anything terroristic about that. He wasn't even US born, so would that count him as domestic even? Curious indeed. 99.189.86.0 (talk) 17:07, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Whoever added the link for Padilla linked to the wrong Jose Padilla (there are a few on wikipedia). It has been corrected. This Padilla, aka Abdullah al-Muhajir or Muhajir Abdullah, was born in NY & planned to detonate a dirty bomb & was found guilty on all counts. User:ACRCali 22:23, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

>> Can somebody add Boston Marathon bombing to the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.99.23.83 (talk) 13:18, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

-Again, this becomes tricky when discussing homegrown vs. domestic terrorism. If it is determined that the boston bombings were planned with foreign direction, leadership, or influence, then they would no longer be considered domestic terrorist acts because they were not drien by U.S.-based ideals. However, it could still be considered to be homegrown terrorism since the individuals involved lived and studied in America. It is because of these confusions that I wish there were two seperate wikipedia pages, one for Domestic Terrorism and one for Homegrown Terrorism.(Waldenowl (talk) 22:31, 7 May 2013 (UTC))

Overstated focus on Islamic Extremism
I am astounded by the focus on Muslim extremists (for example the article states 'male Muslims' as the first most common trait for domestic terrorists!!!!!!). Not one mention of the Provisional IRA (regardless of beliefs categorised as an illegal terrorist group) and ETA in Spain (examples of sectarian domestic terrorists), the Aum Shinrikyo (non-islamic religious homegrown terrorist group, Tokyo sarin attacks), the Norway attacks by Anders Behring Breivik (political domestic terrorist motivated by racist far right ideology and was anti-islam, only mentioned as a passing example at the end of the article), the Shining Path in Peru (domestic political terrorists motivated by commumism) etc etc etc. While there are 4 (i think) passing examples of non-Islamic related domestic terrorism at the end of the article they are not mentioned once in the remainder of the article. Would people agree with amending the article to give it some more balance? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.61.124.194 (talk • contribs)

External links modified
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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110719234840/http://www.homelandsecurity.org/hsireports/Reasons_for_Terrorist_Success_Failure.pdf to http://www.homelandsecurity.org/hsireports/Reasons_for_Terrorist_Success_Failure.pdf

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Non-Western Examples
All of these examples seem to be attacks carried out in Western countries. Under the definition given by the article, shouldn't the majority of terrorist activity carried out in Iraq, Pakistan, Sudan, etc. be considered acts of domestic terror? 4thvar (talk) 23:06, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100830160132/http://www.justice.gov/usao/pae/News/Pr/2010/apr/paulin_indictment.pdf to http://www.justice.gov/usao/pae/News/Pr/2010/apr/paulin_indictment.pdf

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Editing Talk
I really like what you have edited so far. I think you are going in the right direction when trying to focus on just domestic terrorism in this article. The original article seems to stray away from domestic terrorism at some points and tries to define terrorism on an international scale, but you have done a good job withe your editing of that section. Also you raise a good question on the Juan Padilla section of the article, I have never heard of the guy and for him to be a link to domestic terrorism you would think the original article would explain the reasoning behind putting him in there with a little more detail. Overall this looks like a very thought over Wikipedia article edit to me, so job well done! Copenhagenking (talk) 05:08, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

This article sufferers from systemic bias
From the article: "While there are many potential definitions of domestic terrorism, it is largely defined as terrorism in which the perpetrator targets his/her own country. Enders [2]defines domestic terrorism as “homegrown in which the venue, target, and perpetrators are all from the same country. The term “homegrown terrorism” stems from jihadi terrorism against Westerners. Wilner and Dobouloz described homegrown terrorism as "autonomously organized radicalized Westerners with little direct assistance from transnational networks, usually organized within the home or host country, and targets fellow nationals." [3] However, homegrown terrorism is not just jihad or Islamic."


 * First of all what does terrorism mean? Were the actions of the French Resistance in Vichy France terrorism? Was Nelson Mandela a terrorist (he was labelled a such by the Thatcher government)? For more details on this see Terrorism.


 * "homegrown in which the venue, target, and perpetrators are all from the same country." define country? If a splinter IRA attack is carried out in Northern Ireland then that could be labelled "homegrown", but is it "homegrown" if the attack takes place in Southern Ireland, or in England, or is that something different? What happens if the members of an splinter IRA active unit carries a Souther Irish passport? Is (s)he an international terrorist if (s)he takes part in an attack in Northern Ireland?

It seems to me that this article sufferers from systemic bias, because it is looking at things thorough a governmental lens (particularity but not excursively a USA government lens). I think it is an appropriate article for AfD and if necessary add a paragraph to the terrorism article where it will carry a more balanced POV.

-- PBS (talk) 11:43, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Antifa
You are invited to participate in Talk:Antifa (United States), a discussion about whether to include that activities by American anti-fascists were labeled as domestic terrorism by the Trump administration. R2 (bleep) 22:21, 3 July 2019 (UTC)