Talk:Domestic violence in Pakistan/Archive 1

Disruptive tagging
If the editor who seems to think he knows better than reliable sources will not discuss his issues here I will revert his abusive and pointy tagging. Facts, not fiction (talk) 13:53, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You admit that I repaired the fractured syntax of one of your phrases? Won't you admit that this article needs copy editing.
 * You misrepresented the Pakistani convenience sample as a survey, and you failed to mention the caveats that the author included about the lack of generalizability to larger populations. Given your history of editing on rape in Pakistan and your misrepresentation of sources and POV-pushing selection of sources, anything you write on this issue needs to be scrutinized by outside editors.
 * ZED publishes interesting books, like a collection by Hans Magnus Enzensberger, but its a far-left publisher, not an academic press.
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz  14:37, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The author is an academic, hence attribution was given. That is how things are done around here. Facts, not fiction (talk) 14:51, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Need for copy-editing: "Women's shelter's which gives victims nowhere to escape to from the violence"
This article needs copy editing. Its lede contains this syntactic tarbaby: Kiefer .Wolfowitz  15:00, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * " There are also very few Women's shelter's which gives victims nowhere to escape to from the violence".

Edit summaries
There is a lot of pertinent information in this article, but for the most part it was badly structured because the editors hadn't thought through which sentences were the most "vital" and put them to the lead.

If you read through my edit summaries, you will see what I have rearranged and why.

Really important  information, like the estimated number of deaths is introduction stuff, and should then begin a major paragraph. Everything else that you have to say supports this. But the bottom line (or in this case, the top line) is the number of deaths. This info should not be tagged on at the tail end of a paragraph.

You had another significant statement about "Dowry deaths". "Dowry deaths" is a major subject, under which "Stove deaths" is the follow-on. So why was "Dowry Deaths" left to the very last, tagged-on sentence of the whole section?

This is a relatively short article about a very important and sensitive topic. Because it is both short and important, you can afford to consider the careful placement of every single fact, every single sentence. The information must have a cohesive order. Instead, it read as if the sentences were written down in the order that they came to light during the research.

Congratulations on bringing this important topic to the front page!

Amandajm (talk) 13:46, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Citation needed or else..
"Law enforcement authorities do not view domestic violence as a crime and usually refuse to register any cases brought to them" - any citation to support this unsourced WP:SYNTH?  Mar4d  ( talk ) 16:34, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Or else what? The lede is an overview of the article, this is represented in the article. Please do not use threatening headers. Facts, not fiction (talk) 16:39, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * And is is sourced, Hanser2, Encyclopedia of Domestic Violence p211

Men
Getting a taste of what they have being dishing out for hundreds of years is not domestic violence. This edit is a joke Undue weight given to one persons opinion against what is an epidemic of violence against women. The source also says these attacks were in revenge, that is not domestic violence. The source is also an opinion piece and may not be used for statements of fact, and I ask what makes this persons opinion notable enough to give such weight as to warrant a mention ion the lede? Facts, not fiction (talk) 16:11, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Even worse, the source is misrepresented, it does not even say there is domestic violence against men in Pakistan. The title is the clue "The flip side of domestic violence" Facts, not fiction (talk) 16:14, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * This source answers all your question in much detail, besides shedding light on the neglected part of this issue. There is no doubt that majority of the victims are female but the fact that men are also victim and that too in notable ratio can't be ruled out completely from the article. And this source is reliable per WP:NEWSBLOG. Besides about the revenge thing it says: "When a woman abuses a man, the violence is conveniently attributed to revenge, a self-defence mechanism, mental ailment or many other justifiable excuses". Take time to read it thoroughly. -- S M S  Talk 16:19, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I have read it. You misrepresent it. The source does not even mention domestic violence against men in Pakistan. Do not restore it again. And a newsblog is an opinion piece. Facts, not fiction (talk) 16:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you sure you are reading this ? -- S M S  Talk 16:35, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes I am. Please quote the relevant passage from the opinion piece which speaks of domestic violence against men in Pakistan. Facts, not fiction (talk) 16:37, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * FYI most of the sources in the article are opinions. About this source: The whole article speaks about violence against men. Should I quote the whole article here? -- S M S  Talk 17:05, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Just the part about domestic violence against men in Pakistan will do. Facts, not fiction (talk) 17:19, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I would say the whole article, but if you seriously need a paragraph, then...
 * "Surprisingly, the stigma of ‘domestic violence’ also affects men. “Men also become victims of domestic violence. In fact, a huge percentage of them are being subjected to domestic violence globally. It was only after we established MRA that we realised that men have complaints and they also suffer,” he told me on the phone from Pune."

I support the inclusion of this sentence and reference in the article and would argue that it should have its own section with other references added in. Silver seren C 17:46, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Some example sources include this, this, and this. Silver  seren C 17:51, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * To add to the above, a survey published by PJMS, says 36% males are victim of domestic violence. -- S M S  Talk 17:58, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you geographically challenged? What you quote is about India. There is not a single mention of domestic violence against men in Pakistan in that source. Your new sources, first weeklypulse.org blocked as having malicious content by Avast. is a joke right? It has no mention of domestic violence against men, it says a  "‘committee’ should also be formed on domestic violence against men in urban area of Sindh" Were is the discussion of violence against men? The third source appears to be the only usable one. Were in the article do you think a few lines ought to go? Facts, not fiction (talk) 18:02, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * And the third source says "the practice does not take place on a large scale" hence undue weight is an issue. Facts, not fiction (talk) 18:21, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The suggestion to create a committee to discuss domestic violence against men is of relevance to this article. As is the inclusion in the suggested domestic violence bill of not just violence against women, but against men. And this has a table that records the number of incidents of domestic violence against men. Silver  seren C 18:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * And your opinion on undue weight appears to be not to mention it at all, which is inappropriate. I don't know for what personal reasons you don't want there to be inclusion of domestic violence against men, but there is enough sources showing that it should be included. Silver  seren C 18:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
 * CGA-Companion-Paper-1.pdf on which page is this table? The only one I see is not about domestic violence. The only reason that suggestion to form a committee was made was to derail the legitimate requests of women for one regarding the abuse they suffer.Facts, not fiction (talk) 18:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Scope/title
Although the article's title is "Domestic violence in Pakistan", the article goes on to encompass verbal abuse. Would "Domestic abuse.." be a better title? The article is also (almost) entirely devoted to abuse/violence against women, although others are abused in domestic situations as well. The only acknowledgement of this appears to be the observation that "the majority of [acid attack] victims are female" (which includes girls, but also implies that there are male victims as well). Anyway, it seems that the article's title and its actual topic are not in alignment; while I'd be in favor of expanding the text, it may make more sense to change the title. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 21:58, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Interested in expanding article
Hi all, I am interested in expanding on the article as it is very short as of now. I would like to add sections on health effects and more recent legislation and research. The proposed changes with possible references are on my user page. Please let me know if you have any feedback. Thanks! Sa49 (talk) 01:21, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Bibliography for expanding article
Hi, here is my planned work for expanding and revising this article. I have added a bibliography as well for the sources that will be used. Any feedback or advice is greatly appreciated.

To bring this article to a higher level such as a B-class rating, more content is needed that does justice to the issue in adequate coverage of history, incidence, and socio-economic impacts. First, I will be adding an overview section that contains sub-sections of definitions of domestic violence globally and according to the Pakistani government and statistics of incidence. Definitions from Pakistani laws and scholarly review articles will be used. Furthermore, statistics from UN Women will be also be used to highlight the occurrence of domestic violence in Pakistan. Next, a brief history section will be added regarding how the Pakistani government has viewed this issue as one of public or private concern and the history behind related laws. Most importantly, the “Types of abuse” section will highlight the crux of the issue by honing in on abuses specific to Pakistan like honor killing and acid attacks. For this section, I will be primarily using articles that are case studies and review articles. Expansion on this section is necessary to show the wide range of abuses that domestic violence covers. Lastly, three other new sections will be added that cover family dynamics, policy initiatives and support organizations.

Below is a bibliography for each section planned:

References by section

“Overview” section

"Global Database on Violence against Women." Pakistan. Accessed February 04, 2017. http://evaw-global-database.unwomen.org/en/countries/asia/pakistan?formofviolence=fac5fe48636e4d3882bbd2ebbf29bd60.

Qureshi, S. (2012). Legislative Initiative in the Area of Domestic Violence in Pakistan: Gender Approach to the core provisions of the Domestic Violence (Prevention and Protection) Act 2009. Pakistan Vision, 13(2), 200-223.

Syed, A. G., Shaikh, F. M., Ali Hassan, H., & Abdul Sattar, S. (2013). Domestic violence against women: A case study of Shikapur, Sindh, Pakistan. International Journal Of Business & Public Administration, 10(1), 114-127.

“History” section

Nasrullah, M., Zakar, R., & Zakar, M. Z. (2014). Child marriage and its associations with controlling behaviors and spousal violence against adolescent and young women in Pakistan. Journal Of Adolescent Health, 55(6), 804-809. doi:10.1016/j.jadohealth.2014.06.013

Zakar, R., Zakar, M., & Abbas, S. (2016). Domestic Violence Against Rural Women in Pakistan: An Issue of Health and Human Rights. Journal Of Family Violence,

“Types of abuse” section

Ayub, M., Mushtaq, I., Mushtaq, S., Hafeez, M. A., Helal, N., Irfan, M., & Naeem, F. (2013). Domestic violence, mental illness and suicidal ideation - A study from Lahore, Pakistan. Journal Of Mental Health, 22(6), 474-481.

Dobson, R. (2009). 'Honour Killings' Are a Public Health Problem for Pakistan. BMJ: British Medical Journal, (7697). 739.

Jamal, A. (2015). Piety, Transgression, and the Feminist Debate on Muslim Women: Resituating the Victim-Subject of Honor-Related Violence from a Transnational Lens. Signs: Journal Of Women In Culture & Society, 41(1), 55-79.

Muhammad, N., Omer, F., Mushtaq, A., & Shah, M. (2012). Honor killing in Pakistan: An Islamic perspective. Asian Social Science, 8(10), 180-185.

Shaikh, M. (2016). Domestic violence in consanguineous marriages — Findings from Pakistan demographic and health survey 2012-13. Journal Of The Pakistan Medical Association, 66(10), 1319-1323.

“Family dynamics” section

Nasrullah, M., Zakar, R., & Zakar, M. Z. (2014). Child marriage and its associations with controlling behaviors and spousal violence against adolescent and young women in Pakistan. Journal Of Adolescent Health, 55(6), 804-809. doi:10.1016/j.jadohealth.2014.06.013

Vogel, J. (2013). Effective gender-based violence screening tools for use in primary health care settings in Afghanistan and Pakistan: a systematic review. Eastern Mediterranean Health Journal = La Revue De Santé De La Méditerranée Orientale = Al-Majallah Al-Ṣiḥḥīyah Li-Sharq Al-Mutawassiṭ, 19(3), 219-226.

“Socioeconomic impacts” section

Chatha, S. A., Ahmad, K., & Sheikh, K. S. (2014). Socio-economic Status and Domestic Violence: A Study on Married Women in Urban Lahore, Pakistan. South Asian Studies (1026-678X), 29(1), 229-237.

Kanwal Aslam, S., Zaheer, S., & Shafique, K. (2015). Is Spousal Violence Being "Vertically Transmitted" through Victims? Findings from the Pakistan Demographic and Health Survey 2012-13. Plos One, 10(6), e0129790. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0129790

Zakar, R., Nasrullah, M., Zakar, M. Z., & Ali, H. (2016). Clinical article: The association of intimate partner violence with unintended pregnancy and pregnancy loss in Pakistan. International Journal Of Gynecology And Obstetrics, 13326-31. doi:10.1016/j.ijgo.2015.09.009

“Policy initiatives” section

Ayub, M., Mushtaq, I., Mushtaq, S., Hafeez, M. A., Helal, N., Irfan, M., & Naeem, F. (2013). Domestic violence, mental illness and suicidal ideation - A study from Lahore, Pakistan. Journal Of Mental Health, 22(6), 474-481.

Qureshi, S. (2012). Legislative Initiative in the Area of Domestic Violence in Pakistan: Gender Approach to the core provisions of the Domestic Violence (Prevention and Protection) Act 2009. Pakistan Vision, 13(2), 200-223.

“Support organizations” section

Jamal, A. (2015). Piety, Transgression, and the Feminist Debate on Muslim Women: Resituating the Victim-Subject of Honor-Related Violence from a Transnational Lens. Signs: Journal Of Women In Culture & Society, 41(1), 55-79.

"Stopping Violence against Women NGOs." Violence against women NGOs in Pakistan. Accessed February 04, 2017. http://www.ngos.org.pk/rights/women-violence-ngos.htm.

Syed, A. G., Shaikh, F. M., Ali Hassan, H., & Abdul Sattar, S. (2013). Domestic violence against women: A case study of Shikapur, Sindh, Pakistan. International Journal Of Business & Public Administration, 10(1), 114-127. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sa49 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 15 February 2017 (UTC)