Talk:Dominican Republic/Archive 2

Creation of the Republic
This selection making the Trinitarios look racist which they weren't. Juan Pablo Duarte clearly stated that it was not a race thing, that he actually admire Haiti. Not all Trinitarios were white, Francisco del Rosario Sánchez was a mulatto. I understand there a growing anti-Dominican campaign ing on, but i thought this page was about facts not propaganda.

update Now the Trinitario inspire KKK, this page is about facts not propaganda. So please stop using this as way to spread propaganda. The Trinitario weren't racist, or all white. User:avfnx U.S Military Control This part seems to be, perhaps, translated directly from Spanish. In English, we cannot really say 'two periods' past, or 'four periods.' Either time is measured in years, months or is a single 'period' of time. I'd replace these 'periods' with the exact number of years or months (I need to look this up though. Can anyone else verify some numbers?) Cuvtixo 19:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Birth of a nation Section.
I have found the sources of the questionable statements that have caused much debate on this article.

" In 1838 Juan Pablo Duarte the son of a Spanish born merchant, formed along with Spanish descended Ramón Matías Mella and Francisco del Rosario Sanchez founded a racist secret society called La Trinitaria created to overthrow and undermine any government run by people of color. Driven by a belief in white supremacy and a desire to create a counter-revolutionary white-catholic run state, the Trinitarios declared independence from Haiti on February 27, 1844 . Drawing inspiration from St. Dominic's Order of Preachers responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands of Jews and Moors during the Spanish Inquisition, The name Dominican Republic was chosen as a testament of white supremacy over individuals of color. This victory inspired other white supremacist movements in the western hemisphere, notably the Ku Klux Klan. The victory of La Trinataria also inspired significant parts of the plot of D.W. Griffith's famous silent movie "A Birth Of A Nation" in 1915. "

The text under the "Creation of the Republic" is in-accurate ,the source does not support this text "In 1822 Haitian liberation forces unified the entire island under a free government of color, ending 300 years of colonial domination and slavery. Roads were built; school curriculums were changed from a Spanish view to a worldview. Institutions of European colonialism were also phased out, and replaced with ones more representative and respectful of Taino and African culture. Land was redistributed communally and individuals who had benefited from the Spanish invasion and domination of the island were rightfully expelled [5]."http://www.hispaniola.com/dominican_republic/info/history.php.The text cannot be found on the website.Also,This describes the Haitian occupation as a "liberation" (sound familiar?),its an overwhelmingly biased peace of text.

They come from 63.215.27.201 at
 * Considering that 209.247.5.216 seems to have a history of vandalism and deletion (including this today), I think that many of his/her non-NPOV contributions should also be regarded as vandalism. --  LeCour  T:C 05:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dominican_Republic&diff=next&oldid=131235242 and 146.95.69.177 at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dominican_Republic&diff=prev&oldid=131157287 and 146.95.69.177 at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dominican_Republic&diff=prev&oldid=131158496

Please question these individuals above. This seems to be more of a historical context. http://countrystudies.us/dominican-republic/4.htm

64.131.205.111 04:47, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually the mention of racism seems to have started here and the next few edits on May 6 by 209.247.5.216. --  LeCour  T:C 05:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Trinitario
I will prove that it wasn't a racist movement, I will be collecting sources, and writing from Duarte himself. One more thing why so important to include that Trujillo (kill als0 lot Dominican) killed Haitians...first was know the creation of the Republic now is know the creation and develoment only to include that sentence. Why not also how Haiti trying kill the Spanish culture, how Dominicans of light skin had to hide in the the Cibao (and there werent hiding cause there were going be treated nice). Why can't we have History not propaganda. For those that don't understand where I'm coming from there a movement going on, that trying drag Dominican in the mud, so sorry if it seem like i have to much emotion, or edit this more then i should, but ya could see I didn't write propaganda, and Trujillo been 1/4 Haitian i would like other source, cause i have never heard of that. Thank you User Talk:avfnx
 * I Just want to add that i Agree with your point here. In this Dominican Republic Article their is a lot of propaganda Unaccurate information which can even be considered vandalish. Trinitario was in no part a racist movement even thougth it was a secret movement against spaniard colonization and haitian colonization too!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Religion
No country in the world, except Vatican city, has a population that is 95% Roman Catholic. That is not only grossly inaccurate, it is absurd.

The Dominican Republic has a very old, large, and rapidly growing Anglican Church. http://www.anglicancommunion.org/tour/diocese.cfm?IDind=632

This whole section is right out of the Catholic Encyclopedia and completely ignores the explosive growth of Protestant churches in the Dominican Republic, including Mormons and Pentacostals.

Does anyone moderate this stuff?12.72.208.136 02:58, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please read the article again. The 95 % figure refers to the population adhering to Christianity, not to Roman Catholics. Also the growth of Protestant denominations is mentioned. The reference given is not the Catholic Encyclopedia. So I fail to see the problems you mention. VirtualDelight 10:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Puerto Rican Heritage of 2 Dominican Presidents
Please confirm to me somewhere that states they didn't have Puerto Rican heritage. 64.131.205.111 21:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have changed "In the late 1800's and early 1900's large groups immigrated to the country from Venezuela and Puerto Rico, so much so that 2 of the country's former presidents (and rivals ironically) Juan Bosch and Joaquín Balaguer, both had Puerto Rican parents." to "In the late 1800's and early 1900's large groups immigrated to the country from Venezuela and Puerto Rico. Two of the country's former presidents Juan Bosch and Joaquín Balaguer, both had had parents who immigrated from Puerto Rico." as I think that "(and rivals ironically)" is personal opinion rather then fact. I did not change the fact of regarding Puerto Rican heritage. So I fail to see the problem here. I do have a problem with your undoing of all my recent edits to change the wording of one sub-section. VirtualDelight 21:41, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

VirtualDelight....Joaquin Balager and Juan Bosch were Rival for the fact that they were in opposite Parties. One was in the Dominican Liberation Party(Juan Bosch actually started this party) and the other one, Joaquin Balager was of the PRSC(Partido Reformista Social Cristiano).EdwinCasadoBaez 00:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Heritage http://dr1.com/news/2002/dnews073002.shtml http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:oatRh_MbqGYJ:www.geog.umd.edu/homepage/courses/313/Lectures/geog323_lecture7_Exodus%2520to%2520and%2520from%2520the%2520Continent.ppt+Joaqu%C3%ADn+Balaguer+puerto+father&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=21&gl=us

Trujillo Haitian Heritage

I looked for a while on the alleged Trinitario racism and couldn't find anything on it. It seems to be some extremely creative editing which cannot be proved anywhere else. If you can find something on it then maybe it can be placed in, but I don't think it will be found. Trujillo's being 1/4 Haitian is pretty well documented. His exploits are a sad part of history. Similiar to that of Hitler in Germany or Stalin in the Soviet Union. No one is stopping anyone from placing in sourced information concerning about any Haitian attempt to kill spanish culture. I have found many sources concerning Trujillo's family: 64.131.205.111 20:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

1 2 3 4 5 6

Thank you, you learn something new everyday. I actually did my own research and found out it to be true. AvFnx

I think this is another person who is troublesome, 209.204.126.166 (Talk)

Semi-protection
I would like to request semi-protection for this page to avoid annonymous users creating edit wars. Does anyone know the right procedures for this? Dominican 22:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Look at this Please! Semi Protect!PLEASE!I ASKED THEM BEFORE BUT THEY REJECTED MY REQUEST...be the second one to ask and tell them the problems that happen in this page!
 * Requests for page protection


 * EdwinCasadoBaez 23:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Concept of race section was moved above semi protection

First Capital
Sources state that Santo Domingo was the first capital of the americas. I doubt i'll find any protest and have inserted it. http://www.visiting-the-dominican-republic.com/dominican_republic_history.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.205.111 (talk • contribs)


 * it cant be the first capital because D.R became independent after other Countries(in 1844 i believe) Like USA. So probably D.C is the first capital or some other countries In L.AmericaEdwinCasadoBaez 07:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Santo Domingo was the first capital of any sort in the new world. It was the capital of the spanish colony that would later include Mexico, Cuba, and PR. That is what is meant. Be proud of this.. research it if you like. 64.131.205.111 07:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh...I never knew that..i guess you are right because i didnt have any idea of that!Is the first permanent settlement in the Americas too, right?EdwinCasadoBaez 23:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

i'm not sure about that. it was the first capital. The vikings had a settlment in NewFoundland. 64.131.205.111 02:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Even if we did have some problems I do respect the Passion of User_talk:Platanogenius
I wish him the best in his further endeavors. .. Though we could have done without some of the other comments. "''TACKLING THE ABUSES OF THE ADMINISTRATOR. Mr.Edwin Casado and the rest of Wiki, it is clear for us,the rest of the wikipedian editors here, that the Administrator, presumably a Haitian or of Haitan decent, based on the " Haiti-centric" slant of the Article. ( in every history section, has to make a Haitian connection to it, like Ulisses Heaureax, who by the way, was only half-haitian, his mother was a cocola) is just censoring all other editors here. With his powers as an Administrator, he is like a god. He can delete everything he doesn't likes, he can lock anything that he feels is the empirical truth, whether there are verifiable sources or not. He can block anyone that he feels is a threat in making verifiable historical facts that he deems to be negative toward Haitians. Make arbitrary excuses to disparage any sources that goes contrary to his agenda. Yet,many of his own sources can't be verifiable. My additions of Boyer suppresing the Spanish language and Dominicans paying for the debt to France. The Dominican-Haitian Wars, were deleted, because it was counter to his objective.That is,to present DR as a " country that owes everything to Haitians". I've seen the article switching from a balanced one into an anti-dominican,Haiti-centric propaganda. The part where says that Trinitarios was a " racist" secret society, is a blatant hateful,racist point of view itself. If that were so, why people of color supported them? because of the ADDITION THAT I PRESENTED,AND THE ADMINISTRATOR DELETED. BECAUSE THE SPANISH-SPEAKERS WEREN'T HAPPY WITH THE TREATMENT THEY WERE GETTING. Some, my fellow editors, it is fruitless to have a decent discussion with this administrator. Forget about " concensus" and " verifiable source", because all that is ignored by this Administrator that is just bent of placing only what he see fits. In order for us to see a balanced article here, without censure, is having a neutral administrator. This individual isn't and we need to let the higher ups know about the abuses of this administrator. Luckily, this discussion page hasn't been censored and serves us as evidence of the biases and abuses of this Administrator, including his diatriabes against the Dominican people. So we can print this pagge as evidence. Let's not give up, because there is still hope.70.177.181.129 01:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius''"

Best of luck in all you do.. 64.131.205.111 07:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah but guys lets try doing more work and less fighting....In every place i go(Wikipedia,forums and other places) all you see is arguements because people can't get the things straigth...platanogenius you are correct but we cannot be stopped by this!We have to work hard to make this article more neutral viewed...a lot of people see this article(Future Dominican Tourist,Dominican Residents, people that want to learn about the country) and is not fair that the article says wrong things and i agree with you. But we have to stop arguing with this nonsense and lets try to make it more good looking!Lets be peace full now. I Dont want the arguement to be the same way it was last week. We should make this article as good as the Santo Domingo article.

I seen that you been block and it's really sad!Try getting a new account and lets start from blank aside from arguements and fights to avoid blockage again...I stoped arguing because it was gonna get me blocke unfairly again...this administrators dont even know what they doing!EdwinCasadoBaez 23:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Crime Section
I have created this section to document an aspect of this within the article. It will be approached slowly and carefully. There exists crime sections in numerous nations articles including the united states. , Russia , Nigeria. Thanks for taking the time to read this. 64.131.205.111 08:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello, user 64.131.205.111. The articles about crime in theUnited States, Russia and Nigeria are separated from the main article, therefore, there is no basis for having them here. I will proceed to delete the section, create a new separate one and include the link. Dominican 13:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The United States has about 3 sentences on it as well as a link to the crime issues. Rather than a large 2 paragraph portion, 3 sentences and a link would be good as well.  I think this would be a fair compromise.  64.131.205.111 18:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello, user 64.131.205.111. Why do you only add sections that include negative comments and others that highlight our African heritage? You seem to be very fast in doing certain changes, but you don't even seem to care that the History section didn't have the results of the presidential elections of the last ten years. Very politely I ask you to start including some other facts besides the negative ones and the ones relating to African heritage.
 * The three sentences and a link about crime would only seem fair if you did that with, at least, all the countries of the area, that is, Central America and the Caribbean. Besides, the United States article is semi-protected. If you semi-protect the page and add a crime sections for all countries int the area, then I think we can get a deal.Dominican 22:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Is it negative to say that DR is considered to be a humane nation that ruled out the death penalty since 1966? Is it unfair to say that there does exist crime and other wikipedia articles have them as well? African culture isn't bad and neither is taino culture or spaniard culture or Haitian culture? I'm placing in information that is neither for nor against, but is NPOV. I haven't placed in a lot of information about the dominicization that was going on in DR implemented by Trujillo. I am only one man and I can only do one thing at a time. I depend on the information from other users such as yourself to help me a complete article. I don't see the point in semi-protecting the article b/c there does happen to be individuals who contribute who choose not to have a username. We are working together against vandals. If you like we can all write about Crimes in other nations and making a small crime section. That isn't my duty. We are all volunteers. 64.131.205.111 02:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Again I will proceed to delete the "crime" section. It is POV and has no basis to be there. If wanted, you can expand the corresponding article. Dominican 17:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Every sentence is cited. There are other articles of nations with crime sections. If it were point of view you would have erased the article about crime in DR. 64.131.205.111 18:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * None of the other articles of nations that you mentioned had a "Crime" section. At most, they had a separate article. Besides it is POV because you are only pointing out the criminals actions but you don't mention the government's and the population's response to these actions.
 * Something else, the length of the section is too big for the article in general. It is even longer than what is covered of the last 10 years of History.
 * Finally, the last sentence would be better included in the "Crime" section of the New York City article. It is clearly POV. Dominican 19:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur with Dominican here. I fail to see a consensus for the inclusion of a crime section into this article. I think further discussion will be needed. Also the section as it stands is not a coverage of crime in the Dominican Republic but three unrelated facts. This is far to few information for a country article. If the crime article gets enough information this may be a reason to include a crime section into this overview article then. VirtualDelight 20:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Edwin and I both agree there is a desire for one. Other nations have it and DR now does too. There is a crime problem as well as the gang Dominicans Don't Play which shows that there is a problem 64.131.205.111 04:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Sports
The following has no reference: "Baseball is by far the most popular sport in the Dominican Republic today, as it once was in Cuba and Puerto Rico." I will change this sentence if no reference is forthcoming. Mwinog2777 03:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

well even thougth it doesnt have any reference..The Most Popular sports seems to be baseball for me because of the fact that theirs alot of Dominican Baseball player that outnumber any other of dominican played sports!but i think that if you want to you can remove it and place something more neutral!EdwinCasadoBaez 04:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

it seems or it is a fact? we deal with facts here in wikipedia. 64.131.205.111 05:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It is a fact. Dominican 12:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

prove it with a link from a verifiable source. 64.131.205.111 21:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think is a fact because of the large amount of baseball players that are born in D.R. DR has a baseball league while it doesnt have any soceer or basketball league. That means is the most popular sports. Great Players come out of D.R to play in the MLB while we bearly have any basketball Players outside the country.I Am sure baseball outnumbers any other sport in popularity. Dominicans Love baseball! One of the things that dominicans love the most is Baseball, and Domino Playing. All others sports like Basketball,soccer,tennis,and golf are minorities.EdwinCasadoBaez 22:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Links.. sources. DR doesnt have a football league but it has a football player in the NFL. What you're saying may sound good but it's not verified. 64.131.205.111 04:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Refactoring of talk page
This talk page was refactored by 64.131.205.111 at May 29, 2007. For later reference: The talk page before refactoring can be seen here: []. VirtualDelight 14:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sources for "Culture" section
Some statements in this section need to cite their sources: Dominican 05:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 1.2 million speak Haitian creole "fluently".
 * The paragraph uses the custom of eating rice and beans as a proof of African descent.
 * Family structure as a proof of African descent.
 * It ignores the Spanish heritage by calling language and religion "left overs".

Be wary of information that comes from User: 209.247.5.216. They can be removed, but please make notations in the talk section. 1.2 million speak Creole fluently (maybe, but no citation needed)
 * rice and beans? (dubious)
 * family structure (possibly many socities maintain specific types of family structures)
 * leftovers? (i dont' see why it shouldn't be removed) - remove if you like.. it's non-neutral.

64.131.205.111 06:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your quick answer, user 64.131.205.111. Wao! You really keep good track of who does what in this article. Another question: why the "1.2 million speak Creole fluently" does not need citation? Can I change the number at will without citation either? Also, can a registered user (other than just an IP address) comment on this post? Dominican 13:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

When you change something citation or sources are highly preferable or else you'll find people who will debate you. Edit wars suck. 1.2 million creole speakers.. it can be kept it, I guess, but a citation is probably necessary. That is a large number of people. 64.131.205.111 18:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Dominican i think you the one doing the best job right now here!!!!1.2 Million do not speak creole in DR..Thats a total lie and i agree with you!Rice and beans are foods from Spanish descent not african!Is rice and beans grown anywhere in africa??(of course not..only probably in the south region) thats why is not accurate  and the "left over" should be removed for the fact that is wasnt a left over and is ignoring our spanish descent and only emphising our african "descent"..Is was imposed in our culture from our Spaniards and is part of our culture now!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

i fixed the "left over" part last night. The Haitian population is estimated by a Dominican general to be over 1 million. DR doesn't take a census of those haitians so it's subjective 64.131.205.111 17:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

New Ideas and Thougths

 * 1) Please Present them in a Delicate Manner and Do Not discuss(argue against) ideas Below this Line
 * 2) Remember our goal is to Make Dominican Republic an A Class Article so do not argue and be Constructive
 * 3) Please Write any idea for helping the Quality of the Dominican Article. It Can Be New Sections.Expanding a Section.Deleting A Section but do not go against any ideas written Here
 * 4) Please sign Comments and thougths with a four tildes and to put multiple : in front of comments so it can show differences between comment

Started By User:EdwinCasadoBaez

TOPICS

 * Religion:


 * Economy:


 * Crime:


 * Crime section should not be deleted (it exists in other articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dominican_Republic#Crime_Section) but the crime page may be expanded. It is a relavent part of DR.


 * I removed from the Crime Section a Sentence involving DDP and Trinitarios two gangs based in New York. Even thougth they are true gangs because i seem them fight, they still not significant in the fact that they are not based in the Dominican Republic and for that reason it shouldnt be included in the Dominican Article. Some of the Members of those two NY based gangs are not Even Dominican born or Dominican Descent at all. Even thought the names are to be involved with DR it should not be included at all in this article.What should be included in the Crime in the Dominican Republic article is:


 * 1) Crime High Levels after the 2003 collapse of the Dominican Economy(from sources)
 * 2) Drug Traficking from Colombia to the United States
 * 3) Laws Prohibiting Alcohol sales in DR after Midnight to avoid late-night Crimes(this law those exist)
 * 4) Assaults incrementing in some Touristic zones.


 * Please Comment in this ideas in the Botton Section!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to move for the inclusion of the DDP and Trinitarios in the article because they aren't just in new york. This gang is in 13 states in the united states and is the largest gang in spain. . They may have included other nationalities, but they were started by dominicans and are 90% dominican. The trinitarios were also named after the same trinitarios who founded DR. 64.131.205.111 04:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Government:


 * History:
 * I have brought this section into chronological order. I cant think of any objections to this. I also have removed claims clearly not covered by the source given. I would like to ask anyone reinstating them to do so only with supporting sources. I would like to state that I also support the sourced changes by Dominican. VirtualDelight 09:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Why not have a selection on the Trinitarios, and the expanding it to article. Avfnx 14:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Demographics:


 * Transportation:


 * I Believe the Dominican Republic article should have a small overview about the Santiago light rail and the Santo Domingo Metro in the Transportation Section!!We should add about the National designated Highway/Freeway lines Named DR-1,DR-2,DR-3,DR-4,and DR-5 that sorround the countryEdwinCasadoBaez 07:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Culture:

I think we should include a section which has native food off DR and different types of meal we eat like Rice and beans,Platano(Mofongo,Mangu,Tostones,Platanitos),Cassabe which is native from tainos i believe, Pastelon de Papa or Platano, Chimichurri(Dominican Fast food;Hamburger styled), we can add Pasteles en Hoja. Dominicans love Yuca(in General), and other things like Batata. Thats things we should include. Even thougth is not Only Dominicans that eat this we should add it as the style of food we eat. Who says yes or No for Addition of this to the article?Please AnswerEdwinCasadoBaez 04:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that's a good idea. A cuisine sub-section is fine by me. Eventually we can expand enough so as to create another article. We can extract ideas from the Cuban cuisine and Puerto Rican cuisine articles and references. Dominican 07:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Music:
 * I found a very good reference on the origins of Merengue. I can write a few paragraphs to add to the front page and maybe add a few interesting comments on the actual page. The book I'm talking about is Antes de que te vayas, written by Rafael Chaljub Mejía and it's available online at Grupo León Jimenes webpage here . Dominican 17:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The rest of the comments and critics are on the "Music reference" section.


 * Extras:

CRITICS ABOUT OPINIONS PLACE THAT WERE PLACED ABOVE
 * 1) Here You Can Place your Opinions About the Thoughts Of the Comments Above.
 * 2) Here You Can Show You Opinion of the comments.
 * 3) Please Be Moderate when showing your critics so we dont start Another Edit War#When Writing Your Critics Placed Four Tildes at the end of your message and a : in the beggining of your message so it can be organized and read proprerly

WRITE BELOW THIS SENTENCE!

I'm not going get editing war
I have one question why this: [Rafael Trujillo]] government for a time was supported by the USA, the Catholic Church and the Dominican elite; even after the death of Dominicans and over 20,000 Haitians.  Is there something that not a fact there. Other thing i was reading this: Along with renaming towns and mountains to himself Trujillio eliminated all textbooks of the History of the country and had them re-written to suit the needs of promoting present day Dominican nationalism. In 1937 around 50,000 Haitians and Black Dominicans were killed in order to whiten up the country. Different racial categories were created for the various complexions and hair texture, a policy that is un-offically continued today. And i couldn't find were it was cited. maybe i read to fast and missed it. Avfnx 03:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC) I don't know who put this section up "in order to whiten up the country. Different racial categories were created for the various complexions and hair texture, a policy that is un-offically continued today." Thus i don't care if you erase it or not. If you like put a next to it or delete it. 64.131.205.111 04:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Ulises Heureaux
I added former president of dr's photo Ulises Heureaux as well as information about him http://countrystudies.us/dominican-republic/8.htm. 64.131.205.111 16:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC) Lilís' picture and "Ciudad Trujillo" links I will delete those. Lilís' picture doesn't have any reason to be there. Multiple other characters have had a deeper impact on DR's History (like Duarte, Sánchez, Mella, Luperón, Trujillo, Santana, Báez, etc). Or maybe a picture of the actual president (because of its actual relevance). With respect to Ciudad Trujillo, I agree with VirtualDelight that it belongs to the History section (and it is already included). That and not to mention that the dates are wrong. Trujillo renamed the city in 1936.Dominican 21:54, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

He is a 3 time president of the dominican republic and was also a general in the restoration movement of the dominican republic. Thus is exteremely important. 64.131.205.111 23:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Lilís' picture What is the reason for a picture of Lilís? There are far more prominent figures in the DR's History than this dictator. Dominican 03:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

WHY MY EDIT WAS DELETED?
I want to know why my edit about Jean-Pierre Boyer prohibiting the Spanish language in official documents and other oppressive measures was deleted? and I did place a verifeable source. Who exactly gets to decide what vandalism here or not? thankyou.

SMELLING CENSORSHIP HERE. My edit on Dominican-Haitian Wars was also deleted. I placed a source link there, It is in Spanish, but that can be translated. Why am I being censored here? thankyou.

I Dont understand who did it but add it again in the article and if it happens again i will consider it vandalism...somebody is reverting edits without concensus which is real wrong and someone is bringing up a Anti-Dominican Campaing but i really dont know who it is yet!we'll have to make sureEdwinCasadoBaez 05:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC

Is this an article about the Dominican Republic or Haiti?
It seems like every topic someone has come in and mention Haiti at some point. And he or she says that 99% of Dominicans are Black and bases this in a student project instead of an official source? Yes, the two countries share the island and there are a few things we may or may not have in common but whoever was editing this article just wanted to make it seem like DR and Haiti are the same country. (01:43, 31 May 2007) (edit) (undo) 24.199.88.22 (Talk)

Platanogenius, you were blocked for a reason. A day after you were blocked after making many racist and anti-haitian comments you come back with more antihaitian and biased comments. Thanks, but no thanks for your contributions. 64.131.205.111 02:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

explain to me like if I were a 4 year old what was it that sounded antihaitian?

I dont think he sounded anti-Haitian here!!Platanogenius does have a point stated!He Said "Every topic someone has come in and mention haiti at some point..." which sounds very true and accurate of my part. Almost every single section has the world "Haiti" in it...we are forgeting that this is more of an article of DR and we pasting stuff that contains issues involving Haiti. If you go to the Haiti document, you'll bearly see the name Dominican Republic...platanogenius should come back because he is the one that defends things right over here from the mismanagement of other users!EdwinCasadoBaez 02:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I fixed most of the problem
Whoever is doing this nonsense need to stop. As a Haitian, this need to include Haiti in every category is idiotic. The majority of Dominicans are mixed and are mulattoes, they are not 90% black and wherever that information was recieved is completely wrong. The U.S. policy on race is not the staus quo of every nation. The Haitian illegal disputes belong in a different article, it should not be in a summarized version of this country history. The History section was horrendous and whomever decided to alter it made a mockery of Haiti history and Dominican history. Most of the information was completely wrong and ruined even Haiti history. So stop this nonsense of highlighting Haiti in a place where it don't belong. Keep doing it and I'll have to continue to destroy every single argument and put up real facts with hard conclusive backing to shut this process down. Using websites as viable sources is the worse form. 15:58, 31 May 2007 Paneiro (Talk | contribs) (160,909 bytes) (I fixed most of the problem)

Using websites is form within wikipedia. It allows for easy verificatin of information. Also do not vandalize by removing cited material. 64.131.205.111 17:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've filed a formal case to hopefully put an end to this nonsense. Wholesale blanking of sections of the article is unacceptable, and this endless parade of socks has to stop.--Rosicrucian 21:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Issues regarding reliable references
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0094-582X(199805)25%3A3%3C126%3ATTOBSI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W Yet, The statement is not present in the current information on the page and states a false statement that 90% have african roots only. It would be more appropriate to state that 90% have African and European roots rather than the former. 2- The resource provided to back the other groups in the D.R. (Haitians, Jews, Germans, Italians, etc) is not to be found. It leads directly to the CIA world Factbook that those not state such a statement. More resources is needed. 3- The resource on the headline "Abolished slavery and unification of Spanish and French Haiti" leads to a study on the Haitian revolution rather than staying related to the D.R.  Also, there is 2 citations that leads to the same information. That needs to be removed. 4- The Third reference '''Guitar, Lynne. History of the Dominican Republic. Hispaniola.com. Retrieved on 2007-05-29''' does not state anything about unifed free government of color. This is a misuse of information provided by the refernce above. This need to be changed. 5- The Fifth reference '''Hutchinson, Sydney (2006). Dominican Republic - background. Merengue típico. Retrieved on 2007-05-29.''' states nothing about Ulises Heureaux and Gregorio Luperón leading the War of Restoration. In fact, it no state nothign about the War itself. This needs to be corrected. 6- The Culture section have not reliable evidence for the statement thatit states. For example, African cultural elements are most prominent in food (rice and beans), family structure, religious syncranization and music How does family structure and food relates to Africa? Religious Syncranization is not a African element. This need to be changed.
 * 1) 1- There is an issue with the reliability of the CUNY study in the demographic study. The link to the resource is locked and cannot be access free of charge, thus, not making the resource available to anyone.  Also, the resource states "Blacks and Mulattoes make up about 90% of contemporary Dominican Population."  which can be viewed here.

As you can see, there are huge flaws in this page that needs correction. However, it seems Mr. Edgar181 is reverting anything edited for unknown purposes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paneiro1122 (talk • contribs).
 * I'm not seeing anyone named Edgar181 editing the article, and I just checked the last month's edits to make sure. Are you sure you're not referring to someone else?--Rosicrucian 17:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Edgar181 is the one that blocked me indefinitely (which is not Wiki's policy am I right?) with a stupid logic that I was in the same camp as other people with no proof whatsoever, So I assumed that person was the same. Edgar181 is an adminstrator who thought I was deleting things, when I was actually rewriting the errors made. He was reverting the edits even before I had the chance to correct them.

Panero112 or as we already know Platanogenius, why do you keep going around your block? It's only making things worse for you. A short answer to one of your questions. There is a jewish population in DR b/c Trujillo allowed 600 Jews into DR prior to the Holocaust. IF you read the references you would have known why. 64.131.205.111 18:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Plantangenious!? Listen, I don't know who your mistaken me for but I am not that person nor am I associated of that person. So I am guessing you are the one who have contributed to this mess, your references do not suit your statements made on the page.

Rosicrucian, if you can, check the relations with the statements in the pages and the sources that is being put forth. They do not match up at all and if anyone decided to fix it the page is automatically reverted back. A adminstrator is stepping out of his boundaries. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paneiro1122 (talk • contribs).


 * I have made one edit to the article, in which I reverted the blanking of a section of the article and I made one prior edit to this talk page in which I removed an abusive comment by . To say that I am "reverting anything edited" is simply ridiculous.  I blocked  for the comment (which seemed to be promising to "edit war"), for what appeared to be vandalism to the article, and for the apparent sock puppetry.  Paneiro, you need to pick just one of your accounts and edit from that one alone.  I'm open to unblocking the Paneiro account (unless the sockpuppet case finds that you have been evading a prior block) and you can edit using that account alone.  Please be civil in your conversations with others and please abide by the three revert rule, and please sign your talk page comments using four ~'s (it's impossible to follow the conversation when you don't).  And everyone, please discuss potentially controversial changes to the article before making them.  --Ed (Edgar181) 20:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Platanogenius!take it easy bro!i want you back here but if you keep getting in this mess you not gonna have a way out!no one cant fight against this idiots!so just take a chill pill,get a new a count and start from blank but just ignore this dumb asses(In general...am not acussing any specific). Just start from blank..and lets try to work together to fight this Anti-Dominicans! \

But remember!Be easy!stop arguing for anything!i really see some good potential on you(instead of arguing be contructive..Please)...so matter off stay calm!EdwinCasadoBaez 03:01, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

remember the No Personal Attack Policy EdwinCasadoBaez. You were warned about it before. Calling people Idiots, dumb asses or making other non civil remarks will get you blocked. 64.131.205.111 07:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * While I can appreciate the sentiment, you likewise would do well to remember that WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL are not clubs to beat other users with. Make sure you don't descend into harassment in your zeal to defend this article.--Rosicrucian 11:57, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Why did ya banned my cuzin???I think ya pushing this to far!!memeco came here to do work but probably had an arguement with somebody!that doesnt mean he needs to be blocked!He is trying to establish himself in wikipedia, and ya are not giving him time for him to learn the way things work around here!Ya should take easy instead of blocking people because they still could come back so it will be useless to block them!i think ya should be more calm!Memeco stoped arguing after his first day and ya didnt even give any chance to apologize or anything!wtf is wrong over here?are ya monopolizing wikipedia?!This is becoming so sad now!i feel bad for the Future of wikipediaEdwinCasadoBaez 18:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Who am i harrasing?Who am i personally attacking?i said dumb asses in general and i didnt named nobody specifically a dumb ass so i dont think i should be warned for nothing!the truth is that a small group of people over here took over the Dominican Republic Article and now want to do wat they feel like it with it!(but is not going to happen) —Preceding unsigned comment added by EdwinCasadoBaez (talk • contribs)

Why not Worrying more about adding new info?
Why do ya care about vandals more than actually being constructive and adding new info!...I Placed a section called "New thougths and ideas" a week ago and bearly anybody cares about it! Every idea or Opinion should be added here first before actually being added in the article! I'll be much more easy to add it in this section and the vote for concensus! The problem here is that most of the users argue about Sock puppets and other dumb shit!Be more constructive and add less crap to the talk page!!!(this is one of the longest talk page)EdwinCasadoBaez 03:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

no need for the for calling things "dumb shit" or "crap" 64.131.205.111 07:17, 2 June 2007 (UTC) Propably theirs no need but i said it!!is that a personal attack too???EdwinCasadoBaez 18:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC) Maybe the considerable amount of personal attacks that have come from your account led to your blocking for a week. ] 05:22, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I edited the Toussaint part
I made some correction on the Toussaint part and deleted Spanish Haiti. The eastern side was not named Spanish Haiti until 1821. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmyjones1122 (talk • contribs)

Again the edits are reverted back when I laid the facts right on this page
I cleary pointed out the unrelated references with what is being written on the Dominican page,yet, its being rejected.So what's the point in discussing or having a talk page if editing will do nothing to change the statements made by unfactual claims?

Jimmyjones1122 06:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)Jimmyjones1122

What people think of this...

 * 1) 1.3 Abolished slavery and unification of Spanish and French Haiti
 * 2) 1.4 Creation and Development of the Republic

Merge them two....cause 1.3 is to small and the same thing is said in 1.4. Also the 1.4 not really about the development of Republic I suggest naming back to it old name of Creation of the Republic. Let me know what everyone thinks. AvFnx 14:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

slight problem. the republic was created in 1844 so you can't really call it a republic from 1821. the unification of the island was 20 years prior to the creation of the republic. maybe keep it short and make another page to elaborate on it. 64.131.205.111 15:47, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Not really...cause DR does celebrate 1821 was the first try been independent but the unification happen right after. if you read 1.4 it really says what 1.3. Don't seem really professional having it saying the same thing twice. AvFnx 16:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As this is the country overview article and there is a main article on the history I would agree that we should keep this section as comprehensive and with as few sub-headings as possible. VirtualDelight 21:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

slavery was ended around 1805 so that is it's own heading 64.131.205.111 07:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1805??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.127.181 (talk • contribs)


 * 1801  64.131.205.111 15:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

2 Re-establishment as a colony
Can I ask what was the point of doing this. AvFnx 04:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

it follows history. colony, republic, colony, republic. it is cited as well. 64.131.205.111 04:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I see that but why not have like this. It goes to your point but simpler. AvFnx 04:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) 1 History
 * 1.1 Taínos
 * 1.2 European colonization
 * 1.3 Creation of the Republic
 * 1.4 Dominican-Haitian Wars
 * 1.5 Re-establishment as a colony
 * 1.6 U.S. Treaty for Control
 * 1.7 1930 to 1980
 * 1.8 Modern times

http://countrystudies.us/dominican-republic/4.htm

Economy - Fact vs. Opinion
''According to the 2005 Annual Report of the United Nations Subcommittee on Human Development in the Dominican Republic, the country is ranked #71 in the world for resource availability, #94 for human development, and #14 in the world for resource mismanagement. These statistics emphasize the national government corruption, the foreign economic interference in the country, and the rift between the rich and poor.''


 * Is that so? This last sentence bugged me the first time I read it, and it continues to bug me. The statistics are helpful, but these three conclusions need a lot more support, and sound more like theses of research papers rather than encyclopedic content. I would like to see this last sentence cut altogether. If the next person who reads this agrees with me, please cut it.


 * These statistics emphasize the national government corruption, the foreign economic interference in the country, and the rift between the rich and poor....I Dont think this Is Accurate and if it is it should be cited. I am A Native born of the Country and i know there is Corruption, Economic Interferences but i dont think that it is all the reason it has. I think there is more in it than that and for now it should be removed...in fact!even in the U.S there is corruption. Corruption is everywhere but is not the entire reason..EdwinCasadoBaez 02:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can make out, the UN (http://www.un.org) doesn't even have a "Subcommittee on Human Development in the Dominican Republic", let alone a ranking of resource mismanagement. jiHymas@himivest.com 216.191.217.90 20:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, here's a supporting source on the UN's Human Development Index ranking of #94 (2006). --  LeCour  T:C 00:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * And here's another good UN resource (2005). --  LeCour  T:C 00:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * But neither source mentions resource availability or resource mismanagement that I can quickly see. Although that second resource will take a lot of analysis time :) --  LeCour  T:C 00:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Immigration - Emmigration
Dominican Republic doesn't deny anyone health care, and other thing...to get Dominican Citizenship parents only need to be legal in the country. Yes it not the samething as USA...but DR is not USA...like Italy not USA (for those that don't know Italy have Right of Blood)...once again what up w/ this propaganda...miss information about DR.  AvFnx

This information is from amnesty international. Which seems to be pretty credible. This really isn't propoganda, but just a part of current history. There seems to be a lot of information on this particular subject. 64.131.205.111 12:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

amnesty international also said they treat like slave now they saying they didn't say that. The Dominican gov't don't deny Citizenship, it on Dominican Republic law that if you illegal in the country your kid don't get the citizenship. Amnesty International is part of that group lunching a Anti-Dominican propaganda in Europe. I lived in DR, study, read the news everyday...70% of the public hospital cost come from Haitian. I'm only trying trying debate this. AvFnx 02:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Amnesty International isn't an anti-dominican organization. They are more for humane treatment of people. They also noted the US torture techniques in cuba. Many illegal immigrants in the united states eat up hospital costs which is also a growing debate here. There are many dominican children born in puerto rico that were here illegally, but are granted US citezenship. It isn't the fault of the children. It's been stated that the Dominican law for people to get citizenship is so tough that almost everyone who tries to apply is excluded. There are a lot of human rights abuses that have been documented. That though may have to be another article. http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=domini

So you saying that a country have no right to it sovereignty (or only Dominican Republic)...in Italy they apply right of blood (which means the parents got be Italian, so the kid can get the citizenship). Dominican Republic is simply if you illegal you, you kid don't get the citizenship...what they can't have there laws like every other country. And for the record Amnesty is it...so are two priest...they have raised over 30 million Dollar to lunch a Anti-Dominican campaign (so you know something about those priest they declare bunch kids as there own but when they left didn't take them w/ them). The US has it rules and laws...why can't Dominican Republic have theirs...granted Dominican do benefit from it, but Dominican is not trying be mini USA. They are the own people with very rich history. And so the world know no one have done for Haiti what Dominican Republic done for it, they even go out they way to ask for help for them, give them school, heath care, jobs. If was so bad how the big 3 make seem (USA,Canada,France) why would they still try come to DR...mmmmmm here a thought maybe cause not true. Let stop the the game let blame Dominican Republic so we don't have to help Haiti. The mess that France and USA made Dominican Republic got clean up...how can they when they are poor too. And one last thing if was that bad Haiti would have been taken Dominican Republic to court, but why does the Haitian government always come out to defend Dominican Republic? AvFnx 01:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Honestly it's not really about a debate. It's about listing up to date situation that concern Dominican Republic. Rather about it being right or wrong. It is an actual event that even you state goes on and is debated in DR newspapers. The history section hasn't touched the over 15,000 Haitian's that were killed under Trujillo's rule, nor the forced movement of black dominicans   and black haitian's to Haiti or their mistreatment. With all history there is good and bad. In an encyclopedia we should be able to show everything. The situation as it stands it similiar to the apartheid that existed in South Africa. How fair is that? Second class citizens? 64.131.205.111 22:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

you talking about health care which is not true...and what Dominican Republic should have a right to follow it laws... Once again DR is not trying be a mini USA...every country got it laws about citizenship why can't Dominican Republic have it own laws. Other thing there been studies and it show that immigrants in DR don't get treat any worst then immigrants of other country. I'm tried people blaming DR for Haiti problem. Why is a big issue in DR is cause big 3 don't wanna clean up the mess they did. Avfnx 04:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * IS the same case up in the USA!How come they want to kick out every illegal mexican?..Mexicans only do good for the USA and now they want to kick them out!no body says nothing because the USA is A super-power but since DR is a poor nation they get blamed for things they not suppose too!Haiti is not in a crisis because of us. We are trying to be progressive and to deal with our own problems. We cant help others when we dont even cant help our self! Why doesnt france help Haiti?Or The USA which is wasting 1.0 Billion dollar in the Iraqui War!why cant they give a 200 million dollar Bonus to haiti to fight against poverty???(i bet no body has an answer!)stop the anti-dominicans feeling and lets stop this for all!


 * The USA is the most selfish nation ever(for being such a rich nation and not helping out) but no body says anything!but they blame a poor 3rd world nation like DR for problems haiti has!DR HAS IS OWN LAWS AND EVERYBODY SHOULD KNOW THAT!

EdwinCasadoBaez 02:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you make it too easy foor me. So the USA is the most selfish nation ever? DR is one of the top recipients of US AID with over 100 million in 1966. In the 1970's it was around 21 million a year. In 1984 to 1987, United States assistance averaged US$115 million a year in AID to DR. . Should I even speak or mention the economic AID that DR receives today? No, i'll let you do this. Secondly, if America was so bad, why are so many Dominicans in the United States and why are they sending back over $2.7 billion in remittances in 2004, making the country the fourth-largest remittance market in Latin America and the Caribbean after Mexico, Brazil, and Colombia, reports the Inter-American Development Bank (IDB). Dominican Republics GDP is 19.91 billion. So that would be DR receives over 10% of all it's money from people in the united states. There are over 687000 foreign born dominicans in the United States. There are over 800,000 dominicans in the United States right now. So at least 10% of all Dominicans are in the United States. 59% of those live in New York. . There are many mexicans that commit crimes in the United States so please don't say that all they do is good. There are positives for having Mexicans here. Just as there are positives for having Haitians in Dr. The issue is that there are over 1 million Haitian Dominicans, who were born in DR and don't have a right to education, health care or other things. They have no rights. That is the issue you fail to see! Why can't someone hold a bank account? or Go to the hospital? A law like that is wrong. Was it wrong of hitler to kill jews? Yes! Was that the law? Yes it was. A law doesn't make something right! 64.131.205.111 03:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

First off no one in DR is deny medical care, and on like the USA there is hospital are free of cost (yes you don't get first world care, cause DR not first world), to anyone. And now not giving someone that don't deserver the citizenship is genocide. There lot country then. Citizenship is something that has lot value in the world, by your theory let giving to all Haitian they only got claim be born in DR in the first place. You know what let make those two country in to one, let see how that well that will go, two group of people in one country (that don't want that) cause it works so well in around the world, when it better for powerful nation draw lines in the world map. Im not denying that the USA give lot help to DR, I'm a Dominican born and have benefit from the USA...but what now i don't have the right to say what on my mind, so this money it not a aid it a bride now, I thought it was aid. The truth of the matter is you take the part of Dominican History (sometimes not even true) that serve your agenda, you even put things where they don't go. And when it showed you twist that part of the article, you change that part of to make it fit. Don't not compare Dominican laws to Hitler, may I add Dominican Republic took in Jews refuges when the own highly moral USA didn't, Dominican Republic took in Haitians in the last overthrow of the government, while USA send them back to the middle of the war. Ever heard of sovereignty, every country has it right make the laws as it see fit. Italy has right of blood if you don't what that is look it up, are they doing genocide too? DR it much more simple if your legal then you child got right to it, if your not legal that means you only there temporary (that what this amnesty say, they go back home) then you don't. Right of Blood make more sense then huh, only Dominican citizens can give the citizenship to there kids, that make more sense huh. This might be English Wiki but don't mean that you the only one get edit this. And don't come with that "you not understanding it" I know how play with words. Avfnx 06:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Other thing before you go on say look what Trujillo did, well he was support by the USA, the army he control was made by the USA. And he killed lot Dominican, and Balaguer other American backed government, Kill lot Dominican only cause there political belief. my point not make USA look bad it to prove you i could do the same. I know the History of my country, i know what goes on in my country who you tell me what goes on in my home, who know more someone that read or someone that lives it Avfnx 06:55, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I Have a Simple Question for you!64.131.205.111

Is 119$ million Dollars something when you compared it to the Trillions of dollars the american economys has???TRILLIONS in their GDP!!!!!They should give even more to latin america for all the abuse they've have done before!they are still doing it today in other areas(as they are doing in Iraq)!They destroy nations..they go into nations like they did in D.R in 1965 like if they have all the rights to jump in anywhere!and then they ""Reconstruct it"" and give money away so they could seem like they did a good job!Thats what i mean when i say self fish nation!by the way i dont think the USA would've been such a strong force without the immigrants that they have today. They get such a big amount of Human-Resource from other people from around the world. They exploit mexicans and all the other illegal immigrants!and then what gets me pissed off is that no body talks about it!everybody stays shut!EdwinCasadoBaez 16:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not 119 million once, it's over a billion dollars over a few years. You first make the claim that the US is a selfish nation, but after i show you facts. You say it's not a big deal. 50,000 isnt' a big deal. A million kind of is. 100 million is.. but over a billion dollars. How can they be selfish? That is coming out of the pockets of American Tax payers! So lets not be silly and keep calling the US selfish. How many dominican's have over a million dollars? I bet you it is less than 1% of the population. You dont' think this and you don't think that. The United States has over 300 million people. If there weren't mexicans, than Dominicans would do the work, or asians, or blacks. The same blacks you seem to hate. The US is about to give citizenship to all illegals. Something maybe DR should consider! If the United States was so bad, why the Dominican Republic want to be a colony of the USA but the US declined feeling that there was no benefit to DR.. Puerto Rico did in fact want to be a commonwealth and are now the richest island in the Carribean! So much so that many Dominicans leave beautiful DR to go to rich and beautiful PR! 64.131.205.111 16:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

DR wanting be part USA, that was deal was done by a dictator, like DR going to Spain...The people would have fought back and got it freedom once again, did it with spain what make you think they wouldn't have done w/ USA. So like you said if DR was so bad, why so many Haitian come to DR. 24.190.180.244 20:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

He says that Puertoricans actually want to be commonwealth!!(I dont think that accurate buddy..Dont generalize)...Theirs a liberation group in Puerto Rico that wants PR to be free called macheteros i think and this group is always getting caught by the FBI and the leader was caught by the FBI some years ago i believe..So that makes me believe that PR doesnt wanna be a commonwealth,but more like that they are forced to be commonwealth by the US..I dont think the United States would ever like to free the PR because it is such an strategic place in the caribean!Even thought PR has picked to be a Commonwealth in the last couple of elections alot of puerto ricans say that they have been FIxed Elections! By the way i dont hate Black people at all so dont be saying things that are not true...The thing that i dont like is when people talk crap like you without knowing peoples realities in DR and Haiti..You dont know this two countries history because all you see is CNN and FOX NEWS..channels that are censored and twisted by American Agencies. So now you think you have the right to come to the DOminican Article and be writing stupidities and Wrong hisory from wrong sources without even knowing the truth and the real problems that we faced with Haitians and the actual opportunities that we given them..But i guess you dont know that because all you know is "watching news and sources from your computer and reading books that probably wont tell you the truth of how things are"...I say that you should take a damn trip to DR and see how things are up there and you'll change your mind about hows stuff really is... And was last thing: I want to let you know that i dont have nothing against black people at all and i respect them and i actually have friends that are black..But write things dat are right do not write crap PLEASE!!!!!!Stick to the United States Article*by the way It's not 119 million once, it's over a billion dollars over a few years.(SOURCES please)..i think you may be talking about loans but not free money!get that straight!if US gave so much money to DR we would be a RIch ass nation!EdwinCasadoBaez 01:28, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

There are a number of pr's who want it to be a state. Every year though the commonwealth vote wins. The US does not have 1/100th the amount of fixed elections that DR has. If you don't think so, look it up. How is PR so strategic in the Carribean? are there any wars being fought there? you do know that the USA has many islands in the Carribean including the US Virgin Islands. Things in the USA aren't as twisted as you think they are. I have been to DR, so don't state that I don't know what i'm talking about. You want sources for AID? look it up. I gave you 4 of them, here is some of them again, http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/46402.pdf here is another http://www.photius.com/countries/dominican_republic/economy/dominican_republic_economy_foreign_assistance.html. The biggest source of AID comes from Dominicans in America (2.5 billion a year). So lets not talk about AID! People help DR, DR can help others too! 64.131.205.111 05:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Why don't PR it the richest country in the Caribbean. Avfnx 05:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC) Created Emigration Section Because there exists an immigration section i created an emigration section  64.131.205.111 10:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Am closing this Discussion do to the much arguements hereEdwinCasadoBaez 23:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

DEMOGRAPHICS
51% Mulatto population of Quisqueya is accurate, by you placing " 90% African heritage? you making it seem that DR is Uganda or Zambia. African heritage comes in many forms, it could be by itself or it could be mixed. You can say that a Shaka Zulu has " African heritage", and that a Korean/Black mixed has " African heritage", but the two examples are not the same.  We need to be more specific about types of " African heritage".

Northern Dominicans a.k.a Cibaeños, specially the light ones from the Central Valley, show strong European decent, mixed in with African, but in some locales, the European side shows more, as is the case with me. Stop trying to portray the whole of DR as if it were Zambia or Gabon, because it isn't. Is not that it is " bad " to be dark skin African, but that is just the fact. DR speaks Spanish,that has survived and is intelligible with other Spanish-speaking countries not some " creole" like in Haiti, Jamaica and other neighbors.

In reference to the term " Mulatto", wether is considered " offensive", that is subjective. Stop imposing North American " political correctness". DR is a different country with different history. Mulatto wasn't always " a house negro " like in the U.S context. First of all, the mixed population resulted mostly in concensual interaction, that explains how many of them held administrative positions, some owned Black slaves and even became presidents. So stop this " all the America's is Kinta Kunte syndrome". Study some history before. I recommend you read Torres-Saillant's Essay " The Tribulations of Blackness" about the rise of the Mulatto in DR.Platanogenius 06:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)PLATANOGENIUS

the 90% african heritage is from the Dominican Institute at City College. I doubt a dominican institute would offend or try to offend DR. 90% African heritage means that 90% of the population has some sort of African roots. Haiti speaks French/Creole, Jamaica - English, Cuba Spanish, Puerto Rico - Spanish. The African heritage statement is not at all false and is cited by a reputable source. Mulatto like Negro is offensive in todays world. Feel free to place in reputable sources. 64.131.205.111 08:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Reputable source: the recently updated CIA Factbook shows that the ethnic groups in DR are 73% mixed, 16% white, and 11% black. --  LeCour  T:C 15:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I would think that a the Dominican Studies institute at CUNY woud give a more in depth understanding of the racial component of the Dominican Republic due to its academic status  .  The CIA is a governmental organization whose sources and research may be of dubious basis. Even with 73% of the population being mixed and 11% being black, that does not take away from the fact that at least 84% could easily be of african heritage.  Stating someone is mixed without giving racial components is dubious at best.  Mixed could be asian and white, middle eastern and asian.  It doesn't give strong information concerning demographics.  What also isn't taken into account is the over 300,000 Haitians who live in the Dominican Republic (their education (literacy rate) and racial statistics aren't brought into consideration).  Suprising considering they account for at least 4% of the population.  64.131.205.111 15:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

90% black ? I went to that link and saw that it says black and mulattos make the 90%. As being dominican myself I was always taught that the majority of dominicans are mulattos, the rest are white, black, or from the "other" category. I think the CIA fact book has more accuracy towards dominican demographics, not this new citation that was added.

I give up This page all is using Anti-Dominican propaganda...this not about history or facts is about people point of view. I tried bring to a discussion that didn't work. I'm Dominican and I know what I am. This page has turn to the forum about how Dominican treat Haiti. The fact of the matter is no country in the world has done for Haiti what Dominican Republic does for it but hey we can't please the world only for the fact the world does care and what blame the one that trying help. How you deny citizenship when they not in title to it, what Dominican Republic can't follow it own law...Italy have right of blood, USA is right of birth. Every country has it own thing but no Dominican Republic can't have it own thing. I know there lot money been put on the fact make Dominican look like South Africa but that why there a law suit going on, that why amnesty is eating it own words, say we never said this or that. That why the Frances backing off. What you write today don't matter cause History will say at the end who right. There a saying if don't move the dog will not bark, when you start moving froward the dog will. Put blank DR must been doing something right, that everyone wanna have it there mouth. Avfnx 20:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC) I go with You Avfnx...No other country in the world cares about Haiti and is the truth..You see George W Bush going there and he doesnt do any crap..He just talks to the president and then leaves. We cant ignore that Haiti and DR are two different countries and we are not suppose to help them out because the rest of the world wants us to. The World wants to blame us the problem haiti is facing today but they dont realize that DR is playing an important role in giving out jobs to to haitian Illegal Immigrants(they may not be good jobs but they provide enough for food and Basic Needs)..PLEASE DONT GIVE UP!!!I AM GOING TO SEMI-Protect this page as soon as possible!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Biasing This article does not respect the Neutral Point of View. It looks like its intention is to re-write history and delete any trace of Spanish ancestry by calling things like language and religion left overs. Besides, an anonymous user is trying to make it look that my edits are vandalism by stating that I added things that I didn't. I have to admit that Dominicans tend to ignore and even reject our African ancestry (even when it is physically obvious), but denying our Spanish heritage is wrong too. Several of the statements are not backed exactly as they say by their references. For example, the sentence that says that 90% of Dominicans are of African descent (without mentioning other races involved in it) is somehow biased. Not wrong, but not exactly right. The article states that "90% of Dominicans are black or mulattos". Note that mulattos are not only of African descent. They (or we, I am one myself) also have some sort of white somewhere in their blood line.from -- 22:41, 22 May 2007 Dominican (Talk | contribs)

Looking at the history it was traced to you. The I believe people who use the encyclopedia have a good comprehension of english and know the difference. Also again mulatto is a deragory word as is Negro. Mulattos are by definition a mixture of black and white. As such they have have african roots. So if you like you can say that 90% of the dominican population has african roots or ancestry. Better words for you to use might be Zambo, or mestizo, but then you would have to find statistics to back this up. 64.131.205.111 00:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Mulattos is wide use among Dominicans, we don't deny either one white or black. The things is we dont see that our self as race system of USA, Dominican are Dominican that it, like the culture is a mix, a blend of world culture Avfnx 03:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

User Dominican above states taht many dominicans tend to ignore their african ancestry, would you not say that ignore is very similiar to almost the same as denial? 64.131.205.111 03:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello, user 64.131.205.111, I apologize if I used an offensive word, I didn't think the word had a derogatory meaning, specially because it is literally used in the article. Not to be picky, but could you cite any references (other than Wikipedia itself or other mirror websites like Answers.com) that say this is a word that has a deprecating meaning? I think that if we can use the article as a reference we can use the words appearing in it.
 * On the other hand, what I meant by saying the 90% African descent was not totally accurate is that it only mentions the African component and ignores (almost denies, as my earlier edit was deleted) the other(s) (as is done in the rest of the article), so technically it would be more accurate to mention all the races involved, including the Spanish.Dominican 06:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Reliable source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/words/mulatto.html and their later verdict: http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/words/mulatto_olab.html However, there is no censorship on Wikipedia, and if a term is used in a quote from a reliable source, I see no reason not to use it in a constructive manner. I think the word should be mentioned as it is a commonly used term in guidebooks, discussions, and articles on DR. --  LeCour  T:C 06:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure
 * http://www.bartleby.com/68/79/3979.html " It was once used generically for a racial blend of any sort, but originally it meant “the offspring of a North American Indian and a European.” It has not been in polite use for nearly a century. Mulatto’s plural is either mulattoes or mulattos. Avoid all these words."
 * http://www.rsdb.org/ racial slurs database
 * http://gyral.blackshell.com/names.html Mullato Mixed Races Black/White mix, usually.
 * http://www.ericajackson.com/writes/essays/biracial.html The very word "mulatto" carries this animal connotation; it comes from the Spanish for "little mule."  This hidden racist assumption cannot be downplayed.  Referring to blacks in animal terms is generally not socially acceptable, the word "mulatto," however, has been accepted as a standard reference, even though it too is a slur.  If mulattos are animals, then by implication, so are blacks.
 * With the mixture you can state 90% of the population have at least some traces of African blood, 40% have some traces of Spaniard blood (i'm making this figure up). etc.  I disagree with LeCour about reliable sources using the word mulatto because reliable sources also used words like Nigger, Fag, Spic and Gook.  Censorship is bad, but there is a responsibility we all have to make a non obscene article.64.131.205.111 08:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I did say "in a constructive manner." :) One source mentions that "the word 'mulatto,' however, has been accepted as a standard reference." That is exactly why I feel that it should be mentioned. I propose something like:
 * "Today in the Dominican Republic, many citizens of mixed race are often referred to as mulatto. While common, the term is considered by many to be derogatory, as it derives from the Spanish word for mule and has a historical context of enslavement."
 * This is an encyclopedia, after all. Just because we don't like a verifiable fact, doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. --  LeCour  T:C 15:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

So the gooks in Vietnam? The Fags in San Francisco, and the Niggers in South Carolina. Yes it is a fact that this is a term to use when referring to them. This does not make it non-derogatory. How about we use something like "african and spaniard mixture"  this would be correct without using the word. 64.131.205.111 18:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

CUNY IS NOT SPECIFIC AND POSIBLY BIASED. You(the ip person)present the " CUNY" source, so what? 90% African is not an accurate, because like the other person said, it oblitarates the European heritage completely, by not making any mention of it.

I don't know who you are or what your agenda is, but I do find the demographic article to be offensive to Cibaeño(Northern) Dominicans. We know who we are, we know our country. My family has been in Quisqueya for centuries, they have fought the French, the Haitians and the Spaniards in the 18th century, it has been passed out from generation to generation. So stop insulting the heritage of white-skin Dominicans here, like if " we don't exist".Platanogenius 16:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)Platanogenius.

You should actually take a look at CCNY, who went there, the amount of noble prize winnners, fortune 500 executives, as well as sports championships that have come from the school. If you have a strong idea of CUNY you would know that CCNY is a college within the CUNY system. CUNY is a world class univeristy system and CCNY I can easily say has produced more world renown students than any university in the Carribean including DR. Even Colin Powell went there. Secondly, white skinned dominicans does not mean that they are white or caucasion. They can still be white skinned be black. This exists within African Americans i.e.  . No one insulted white skinned dominicans or stated that they don't exist. 64.131.205.111 18:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Lastly, the CUNY Dominican Institute at CCNY is very specific and has done much work. You should take a read at it. 


 * Everytime you edit this article you make me nuts, and i mean 64.131.205.111. You dont know about dominican history or demographics!I am light skinned dominican with ligh colored(green but thats no the point) eyes and my mom is like the rest of my family is light colored(Even thougth thats not the point i am trying to state)!I dont go against black race or black people but am sure that the "90% african roots or decent" is inaccurate not to say that is complete crap and it makes me mad and embarrased (because of the one sided view this article has)!If you going to add something up in this articles ask us first because you surely dont have any idea of what the Dominican Republic is and it's people!(you should take a ride into Santo Domingo or Cibao Region and you'll see theres a lot of non African ancestry dominicans there)guys!Not that i am trying to be white at all because i do have mixed blood of my father which is from the South of Dominican Republic but my point is that we shouldnt put a bad quote here!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Did you know that many asians have green eyes? http://kennethomura.tripod.com/asian_eyes/ So eye color does not make you any specfic race. Terrence Howard the actor has green eyes. There are many people who aren't white who have light colored eyes. http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13035&PN=5 Is a prime example. Do look at the photographs on the website. Light skin doesnt mean you are white. Asians have light skin and some have grey eyes. But they are not caucasian. Caucasian is a race and it seems like you are trying your hardest to be or relate to something you are not. 64.131.205.111 02:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

"IP" you have to get your facys straight. As long as you are vandalizing this site I will have to change the history and demographic sections. I will not tolarate all of this misinformation. I was born and lived in the Domincan Republic, and I know for a fact that you are vandalizing this site. Most Domincans have African ancestors, but we also have European ancestors in the same amount, and we treasure our national culture as a MIXED nation. Get your FACTS right! '''Comments left by banned vandalistic user Revision as of 19:07, 31 May 2007 (edit) (undo) Memeco (Talk | contribs)  who was banned as a sockpuppet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Memeco'''

YOUR CONCEPT OR RACE IS LUDRICOUS

To ip 64.131, you are trying to impose " one-drop rule myth", hyperdecent and other racist thrash from the legacy of Jim Crow into a country like DR. Ernesto Sagas is a Dominican professor at CUNY,and not even him accepts that thrash. You showed yourself. You showed a picture of Collin Powell? hahaha. That's not what I meant by " white-skin" Dominicans. Collin Powell( a Mulatto, btw) is FAR from being " white-skinned". I placed the suffix " -skinned" on purpose. I meant by that, is that even when there is a mixture, the amount of European blood is much larger, thus giving the person " White skin" and more European-like characteristics. Not somebody looking like Simbad. Ex:link title, [http://www.hoy.com.do/article.aspx?&id=18092# link title. These people passed as White during the colonial period. If they have a grandfather looking like Collin Powells, then they cannot they are " white" like some Viking let's say. But i'm wondering how come nobody is calling Bill Clinton a " mestizo" since he had a Cherokee grandmother?? hmm. Nice North American double-standards, one-drop only applies when it comes to African decent only. Anyways, I'm not here to discuss the " screwed up concept of race" in other countries, but the reality of DR. The concensus here among Dominicans, is that the " 90% African decent" is a vague statement, people that claim other heritages mixed, want to be classified as mixed, in the case of DR, as Mulattoes, because they DO VIEW themselves racially different from the Sammy Sosa-type Dominicans.Platanogenius 05:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius.

Alright, no one is forcing this on DR. DR doesnt own this article. This is on the American and English version of wikipedia. Secondly, not to insult you, but your grammar shows that you aren't a native english speaker. Thus you may not fully understand some of the nuances of the conversation. You are claiming European like characteristics without being European. In all honesty, why don't you just say Spaniard. White skinned? Colin Powell is white skinned. So is Vanessa_L._Williams. Have you thought that maybe that all those nations don't have a screwed up concept of race and maybe some Dominicans are in denial? Look at your own former president rafael trujillo "attempts to "whiten" the predominantly mixed-race nation. He favored the arrival of white or Caucasian people over the rest, in a methodical attempt to increase the white population". "Trujillo was openly inspired by Hitler's racial theories and ordered the massacre as a way of "whitening" his country. To quiet critics, Trujillo deployed an intense "Dominicanization" propaganda campaign portraying his racist mania as a paternal act to save his people from Haiti. ". This belief exists even today. You do know that denial isn't just a river in Egypt, right? 64.131.205.111 16:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Dude..am not claming no european race or anything of that sort(My mom is ligth skinned and my dad is actually dark skinned becaused they intermarried)..what am trying to state is that theirs a lot of people in the Cibao Region which are not from african ancenstry as you say!they are certain things that you say which are not right!!Well English is not my native language either and i dont want it to be!I am proud of having spanish as my native language the same as the rest of the dominicans in wikipedia...I am Dominican and i dont care about  spaniard descent and i dont consider my self white either. the only point am trying to state here is that "the 90% african descent..." is not factual..You wrote this before and thats not true!I totally disagree with this quote and as long as that quote stays there i am gonna keep the argument going!


 * Did you know that many asians have green eyes? http://kennethomura.tripod.com/asian_eyes/ So eye color does not make you any specfic race. Terrence Howard the actor has green eyes  .  There are many people who aren't white who have light colored eyes.  http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13035&PN=5 Is a prime example.  Do look at the photographs on the website.  Light skin doesnt mean you are white.  Asians have light skin and some have grey eyes. But they are not caucasian.  Caucasian is a race and it seems like you are trying your hardest to be or relate to something you are not. 64.131.205.111 02:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Did i ever said that Eye color makes you an specific race???Did i ever stated in the above comments that i wanted to be white or caucasian?I AM PROUD TO BE DOMINICAN AND THATS WHAT I AM....The only reason i brougtht up that i am light skinned and my family is too is so you can know that a lot of people in DR are not of African Ancenstry and that "90% african acenstry" is not factual!Thats all am trying to say here and then you accuse me that i am trying to be white which is not true and that makes me feel angry by you saying that..So you should watch your mouth!!!EdwinCasadoBaez 02:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

You implied that b/c you have green eyes and white skin you must have caucasian or european blood. I proved you to be false. Again light skin doesnt make you non african. Again denial is more than a river in egypt. 64.131.205.111 02:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Where the fuk did i said that...you stupid idiot...i said that this proves that 90% to be african descent is totally wrong but it doesnt mean am white either..stop pulling words from my mouth without i ever saying something like that..is not like Being WHITE gives you and extra preference..all i know is that i am dominican and that the quotation is not accurate!...Dont you realize that everybody goes against you in this discussion???Is because you wrong!EdwinCasadoBaez 02:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Please take notice of the no personal attack policy of wikipedia. Not everyone, just some people who are native born dominicans who don't want the truth about the abuses that have gone against some haitians to be out there. As well as the racial demographics. 64.131.205.111 03:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you think i give an F*** about the no Personal Attack policy...you are being disrespectfull here too so you should be quiet!!What you say is not the truth Man!!!is not the truth!you have to go around DR a couple of more times and you have to see the truth by your own self!!you have to see the other side of the story not only the ones that Webpages and the CCNY Dominican Institute shows. And as i say again i think everyone does go against your thoughts!EdwinCasadoBaez 04:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Please take notice of the no personal attack policy of wikipedia. . If you continue on with it, you will be blocked! 64.131.205.111 07:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

BIASED MINDSET AGAINST DR. I'm not going to engage into a Bizantine Arguement with a one-droppist/Jim Crower. Your mind is made up already. English is not my native language, that's right, but my message goes thru fine, the problem is that there are " mental blockades" for other people that get bothered with the truth.

I've never said that I'm European,because I wasn't born and raised in Europe,but I DO have majority European blood, nobody, neither in country redneck southern u.s or Europe has ever one-dropped me, so if you don't know me, don't be talking thrash. Also, don't be lecturing me on Dominican history,about " Trujillo", because you don't even scratch the tip of the iceberg. Trujillo killed my grandfather in 1956, he was against his abuses, all that appeared on the newspapers was " Dr.x dissapeared Tuesday night", and that was it. He was whiter than cotton, as many members of my family. My greatgrandparents helped many Haitians scaped the 1937 Massacre.

What you thought, that just because I acknowledge my European Ancestry,which is a FACT, evident in my phenotype and family lineage, that would automatically make it a " Trujillist idealist" or " whitening/denial, etc,etc?? You don't know me to prejudice me. Back in the 1930's, racism and discrimination was legal everywhere. The president of El Salvador, Maximiliano Gomez, prohibited the entrance of Blacks into that country in the 1930's, Argentina also had White-only immigration laws, Japan was carrying out massacres and proclaiming themselves superior to the Chinese. Hell, even in the U.S, there were signs saying " No Irish allowed", and the Irish are whiter than virgin snow. So don't be singling out DR as the " only devil" in the world community back then.  You have shown us here your biased agenda, like if Spanish language and religion and other customs fell out of planet Mars, instead from the remnants of the colonial era like my family.

That's right, DR doesn't own wikipedia, neither do you. You don't own the English language too. Tell me, who decided that terms like " Negro and Mulatto" are offensive in the English language?? I'm going to ask Queen Elizabeth II, maybe she is the owner of the English language, if she finds it offensive, then it is offensive then " sigh".

Be assured that the biased demographics that you presented WILL BE CHANGED,to include the diverse racial landscape of DR, not some anti-dominican, anti-european heritage biased, reactionary view. DR is a country with diverse political, religious, social views, NOT everybody is a " anti-africanist", or " Scandinavian-wannabe".70.177.181.129 23:58, 24 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius.

Dominicans who have any type of European blood have spaniard blood. Spaniards by the way are mixed with Moors. The Moors ruled most of Spain for hundreds of years and as a result there is still African blood in spain. So any way you rule it DR has african blood. Secondly many nations had slavery and racism, but most declared it to be illegal and stopped the open practice of it. DR has yet to do that. Which is a shame. You talk about Trujillo being so bad, but you are still believing a lot of the values he put forth. The anti-black, denial of african roots and more. Did you know that Merengue which was made the national music of DR by Trujillo was originally haitian music. It was one of his biggest accomplishments and a dedication to his haitian roots. Well, anyway, keep reading. Society by the way decides that negro and mulatto are offensive terms. 64.131.205.111 00:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Merengue came from Haiti wow that a first, what happen to the theory that was going on the web that merengue was from PR. Dominican do there own music, don't need steal no one music like some country of the Caribbean. (and im not talking about Haiti, for the record. Avfnx 02:07, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that Trujillo wasn't part Haitian? Are you also saying that Meringue and Merengue aren't the same with the exception that one is in creole and the other is in spanish and the beat is slightly faster in Merengue? It's like saying Spanish rap didn't originate in the bronx and wasn't based off american rap. that's just being silly. 64.131.205.111 02:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

For one thing i never said Trujillo wasn't part Haitian i asked for for other page that would say the same thing, and did I argue after that?...and if was the same thing what make you think it had come from Haiti 1st...merengue been part of DR from day one. So saying Trinitario inspire the KKK? when it had a dark skin man as the leader.Avfnx 05:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I NEVER SAID NOR DO I THNK THE TRINITARIO INSPIRED THE KKK. If anything their uniforms were inspired by the spanish inquisition. If you notice, i came around after that was already on the site. That was by another user. So what makes you think that merengue is from DR since day one? can you prove it? I showed enough evidence that it was haitian music. 64.131.205.111 06:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

DON'T ARGUE WITH THAT FARRAKHANISTIC MORON Why do you argue with that Farrakhan?? Ignore that moron, he doesn't know any better. Around 51% percent of DR is Mulatto(euro/black)or mixed and 46% Black. The mixed population lives mainly in the North,also known as the Cibao, while the Blacks are from the South like Sammy Sosa. This guy is a believer of " one-droppism", hyperdecent". So forget about convincing this fool. It is like a religion, it is very hard to convert somebody from one into another.

Northern Dominicans aka Cibaeños know who they are, they don't need these idiots to tell them what are they or what they are. This idiot doesn't know jack about our history. There are ignorant people in every nationality, granted, but that doesn't give license to generalize an entire nationlaity based on the reactions of some people. I'm Dominican, nobody has ever called me Black, even in the redneck deep south, even thou I do have Black blood, due to the fact that my family is not racist and some intermarrired with dark mulattoes. Anyways, ignore these idiots,look how he is bad-mouthing white people. white people have done lots of evil, true, but this idiot wouldn't even be talking garbage thru this computer if it wasn't for this invention from the white man in the first place. That's just to tell you about his pea-sized brain. Some people's intellectual levels, in any race or ethnicity, is just Jurassic, just stay away from debating things like politics, religion or race with Neantherthals. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Platanogenius (talk • contribs) 01:55, May 25, 2007 (UTC)

You should familiarize yourself with Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. 64.131.205.111 02:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Getting back to what you stated. It is not Euro/black .. in the case of DR it is Spaniard/black and going by those numbers 46% black. so that would make 97% of people in DR having roots that were based in Africa. Some family members married dark mulattos? or did they marry blacks? lol? There is nothing wrong with being white. There is something wrong with the thinking of people who deny what they are and who they are. 64.131.205.111 02:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

YOUR INTELLECTUAL LEVEL NEEDS TO GROW. Hey Einstein, when did I say anything anti-africanist here?? please point it out for me. I'm even against the CIA sources that some people wanted to place on the article here, the one about 73% mulatto,16% white and 11% black. Do you think that I'm going to be crazy enough to believe DR is only 11% Black?? I'll be too ashamed of saying such a thing. I agree on you on that one. 51% mulatto, 46% black, 2% white is the real demographic approximates of DR. Where is the " denial, anti-black, blaha blah and all the non-sense accusations that you are making by me saying that?? I stated an increase from 11% that somebody else place here from CIA to 46%, that's an increase of 35. So I am the anti-black, racist,denier???

I knew that you where going to throw the " Moor myth" about Spaniards, you are showing the radical afrocentric nut. What's next? you also believe in Van Sertima's book, that the Olmec heads of the Yucatan peninsula are Africans? or that snow is really black?? DNA studies in Spaniards show that less than 2% have Moor blood. It has been weed out,since the fall of Cordova in 1236, by the " limpieza de sangre" campaign of the christians. Spaniards are White as are the anglo-saxons,and the Irish. I'm not going into deep details about " Moors and Spain" with a radical Afrocentric nut, but going back to the article, we are not going to allow that the DR article is going to get hijack by radical afrocentric nut, nor eurocentric too. As you can see, I'm not eurocentric, 16% white to 2% white, do the math.

You think that you where going to deal with an ignoramus, but when it comes to history, you are kindergarten compared to me. You say " society" says that such words are offensive? wow, impresive answer. You still don't own Wikipedia and the English language, and you don't speak for " society", " society" has diverse views of the world. The article will be changed.Platanogenius 02:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius

You state all this statistics with no sources. What is up with that? Why don't you read this http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/portugal.html "From that time onwards, racial mixing in Portugal, as in Spain, and elsewhere in Europe which came under the influence of Moors, took place on a large scale.  That is why historians claim that "Portugal is in reality a Negroid land," and that when Napoleon explained that "Africa begins at the Pyrenees," he meant every word that he uttered." 64.131.205.111 03:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

'''SPANIARDS ARE NOT WHITE?? OH LORD''' 51% euro/black and 46% black,that is 46% afro decent and 51% afro-mixed decent,that makes it neutral, becuase Mulatto is a separate racial group, they view themselves different from the Blacks. Now, if you have a problem with that, which you certainly have, then that don't belong in this article. It is an accurate description of DR demographics, and CCNY-DS,KNOWS IT, and WILL agree and cooperate. You can go and take your radical afrocentrism to Maulana Karenga.

and example is the demographics that show about El Salvador in wiki, it says " 90% mestizo,9% white,1% indian". In my personal opinion, Indian might be more percentage, some mestizos might look " more indian than 50/50 or 40/60. Since Mestizos DUE view themselves different from Indians, why don't you go and invade the article and type " 91% of Salvadoreans are of amerindian decent". 90% amerindian-mixed population " doesn't equate to " amerinidan decent". that just creates confusion. So if other articles of latin american countries can word it like that? why not DR??Platanogenius 02:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius

Why don't you read this http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/portugal.html "From that time onwards, racial mixing in Portugal, as in Spain, and elsewhere in Europe which came under the influence of Moors, took place on a large scale.  That is why historians claim that "Portugal is in reality a Negroid land," and that when Napoleon explained that "Africa begins at the Pyrenees," he meant every word that he uttered." I have no idea why you are talking about the El Salvadoreans in that they don't have a serious relation to DR. The tainos were killed off, not like Central American Indians. moors never entered France, Germany, Sweden, England, Italy, Poland, Denmark, but they did enter spain and portugal. 64.131.205.111 05:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

UNBELIEVABLE, TALKING TO A CHILD You placed a radical Afrocentric link, oh lord. You forgot to place a Van Sertima link too, and the other one that says that Hannibal and Cleopatra were Black too. The scholars at CCNY-DSI will be very enterntained reading your thrash. I knew that you were going to quote Napoleon about the " Pyrennees". He didn't mean that Iberia is racially different to France by that. By me saying El Salvador, It was just an EXAMPLE, about how other articles word the demographics when MIXED RACE PEOPLE ARE INVOLVED. Where the hell I tried to imply that DR looks like a Salvador demographically in anyway?? Jesus Christ ! Anyways,the hijack of Wikipedia's English language Dominican Republic Article by radical afrocentric-onedroppist will be over soon.Platanogenius 04:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius.

again no personal attack policy of wikipedia should be followed. . Someone, I belive you started stating the demographics of el salvador. Which has nothing to do with DR. When Napolean said that he totally meant that it was racially different. I guess when they say that Portugal was negroid they didn't believe it was a different race either, right? 64.131.205.111 05:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

AN ARRAYANO HIJACKING THE DR ARTICLE. This person clearly has a pro-haitian agenda at the expense of DR. According to this individual, everything Dominican is actually Haitian !! He putted a bogus link as a " supposed" prove that merengue is originally a Haitian genre. The link doesn't confirm anything, it just says it might be a probability( they just talk about the dance,not the music or the instruments they play).

The same thing he did with the demographics. The link from CUNY doesn't say anything about " 90% African decent". and what is his problem is placing it " 51% mulatto, 46% black, 2% white" anyways?? why it bothers him so much people identifying their mixed background?

Fellow Dominicans, we have to do something to weed out this biased character, who simply place " bogus" sources. I mean, think about it, Maulana Karenga can say that there were Black people in China in 300 b.c and this character will place that as a " bonafide" source. Because for him, Karenga might be " the enlightened one". the internet is full with " scholars with agendas" out there, you just " pick and choose" and post it on a webpage. You can see that in the Israel article, Tibet article, etc, etc.

Please  do not make personal attacks. Your edits appear to be vandalism This is your final warning if you do it again, you will be blocked. Thank you. 64.131.205.111 21:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

thats not a personal attack.he is telling his belief and views about what you seem to edit. Truthfully i do agree with him because of the fact that you are reverting all edits that go against your point of views.You revert mines,His,and the other wikipedians around in this article. Then you blame us and place us in a list to be blocked!!!c'mon learn to be more neutral atleast!When you edit people do not revert them because we know how to respect.We are people of concensus something that you should understand the same way as we do here! EdwinCasadoBaez 21:53, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

that is a personal attack. the same way you made a personal attack against me. You should cease from attacking others. point blank! 64.131.205.111 22:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Here just an honest question: How can you block someone if you don't even have an account? Dominican 22:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

famiarize yourself with wikipedia policy. 64.131.205.111 22:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

He placed me on the list to be blocked..I saw it!He placed me on the list because i was being "disrespectfull". You requested for me to be blocked EdwinCasadoBaez 22:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I didn't place you on anything. 64.131.205.111 04:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

JSTOR SAYS " NEARLY 90% BLACK AND MULATTOES." The censor here says information has to be from " sources". Well, there are many types of sources. The article from JSTOR by Silvio Torres-Saillant ( I know him, and read his article years ago).clearly says " 'NEARLY 90% BLACK AND MULATTO'". So I request, that EXACTLY THAT BE PLACED ON THE ARTICLE ! or perhaps, type and equivalent quotation "nearly 90% Black and mixed European and African". If not, delete it. Because it is CLEAR, the the agenda of the editor, was to phase out any MIXED-RACE HERITAGE in DR. or make DR look like Haiti or Ghana,Congo, etc.

If the censor here has a problem with the word" Mulatto", then why place a source that contains that word in the first place?? Just find another source that doesn't have it. In the meantime, if the demographic info offered by the source cited mentions it, then IT SHOUDL BE PLACED ON THE ARTICLE. We are not going to be " CHERRY-PICKING", for any given person's biased agenda. Thank you.70.177.181.129 17:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius.

English culture. Mulatto is deragotory. Black-mix in america is black. Also platanogenius. This is your final warning. No personal attacks. The next time you will be blocked. 64.131.205.111 18:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

In addition the article says "African ancestry or has African roots" which is equal in meaning to black and mulatto. Please stop trying to force your own agenda. 64.131.205.111 18:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

WHY THE HAITIAN IS GETTING AWAY WITH THIS? Fellow Dominicans, this biased, prejudiced and reactionary Haitian has hijacked this article. Any edit that we put, whether it has sources that are better than the sources that he presents, he deletes. Is this guy a moderator here that is abusing authority here?

The word is spreading thru out the prominent Dominican websites on the internet, " a tomar cartas en el asunto".70.177.181.129 04:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)platanogenius.
 * Please refrain from personal attacks and spreading of hate between Haitian and Dominican people based on unproven assumptions. I have placed a warning on this IP's talk page. If you are platanogenius please use your account for further edits. VirtualDelight 09:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The Price of Sugar documentary -apartheid in DR? "The documentary which depicts Dominican Republic as a country where Haitians are treated as slaves, urges Europeans to boycott its tourism and sugar. The Dominican sugar producer Vicini Group served notice on the producers of the film "The Price of Sugar" to abstain from showing the documentary, which it said is libelous against them and the country, or otherwise will take the producer to court. Executives of the Caei sugar mill, owned by the Vicinis, said the documentary produced by the American Bill Haney proposes the boycott of Dominican sugar exports to United States and that European tourists not travel to Dominican Republic.Tourism in fact is the country’s main hard currency source and boycott by European tourists would severely harm an industry that generates thousands of jobs. "The Price of Sugar" will be shown May 17 in Paris, as part of a cultural event where speakers will also speak about the alleged mistreatment that Haitian workers receive in Dominican Republic. 64.131.205.111 23:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have removed "The documentary the Price of Sugar has also led to a European boycott of the Dominican Republic. " as this is in no way covered by the source. The source as quoted above says "The documentary which depicts Dominican Republic as a country where Haitians are treated as slaves, urges Europeans to boycott its tourism and sugar". This does not say that this urge has indeed lead to a boycott. So I would think that we would need a source here which states that there indeed is a European boycott of the Dominican Republic because of this film. As this is an overview article for the Dominican Republic it only should include such information if there is a wide impact of this film on the perception of the Dominican Republic of course referenced by reliable sources. The existence of the film itself does not proof that. VirtualDelight 13:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

A quick change to there have been threats and urges of a boycott due to the harsh and what has been termed to be near slavery conditions. 64.131.205.111 16:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Abuse The source attaches a number: The number 90. That's what you did, you picked that number and placed it on the article. So, that's is the number that goes. 90% Black and Mulatto. That DOESN'T equate in any shape of form to " 90% African decent". You don't call a cafe au lait just " coffe",or just " half coffee" because it neither coffe or milk,it is mixed.

And like I've said before, the source uses the word Mulatto. Dr.Torres-Saillant, the same as Dr. Ernesto Sagas,both from CUNY, use the term " Mulatto" extensively on their books, articles, papers. So who are being hypocritical here and double-standard.?? ANSWER MY QUESTION: WHY DO YOU PUT A SOURCE THAT CONTAINS THE WORD MULATTO THEN??

If you need me to get Torres-Saillant himself to talk to you here, I will do it.

Also, what do you mean by " English culture"? You mean the culture of England in Europe? What that got to do with anything? Also, your statement of " In America, mixed is just Black". This is just an opinion, just check the " one-drop rule" on here on wikipedia. That's not even DNA facts,scientific fact. The same thing like a Mestizo(amerindian and white) doesn't make it just " amerindian. Who the hell says that just because this is in English, this is targeted for " American culture". Don't be ridiculous, I'm trying to be reasonable here.

I'm tired and irritared of your abuses and narrow-mindness. Besides, I've said that " mixed European and African people" can be a suitable replacement for " Mulatto". So what the hell is your problem?? You are very disrespecful, this is clearly a bias. - written by 70.177.181.129 (Talk)

This is your final warning user:platanogenius. The next time you engage in a personal attack you will be blocked. You should familiarize yourself with Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. 64.131.205.111 20:51, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

archived the talk page because it was getting too long. Only kept the suggestions for improvement comments because I think that's the most relevant (and with cleaner language) section right now. Dominican 21:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Tie that binds

It has been stated that the Taino population is the tie that binds, but they are also said to have been exterminated within 25 years due to mistreatment and disease. Is there any citation that shows that they lived longer? There are numerous citations that show that they died off. "The culturally indigenous Taino population is blended into the culture and considered to be the common tie that binds. There has been claims that the Taino population died off within 25 years of settlements of Europeans.  " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.205.111 (talk • contribs)


 * I find this information from a WP:RS quite interesting. --  LeCour  T:C 00:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Great read, extremely interesting. The survival of a culture doesn't always mean the survival of a population.  Many latin words are still used in Romance languages as well as English.   The Taino appear to be a specialized tribe of the Arawak or the Carrib who resided in hispanola.  There may have been some Taino's in haiti, but according to records, there were none in Santo Domingo --> Dominican Republic

When I study in Dominican Republic I was told that the Taino mix, that the make up of Dominican is Taino, Spaniard and African, that what on the Dominican text book. Avfnx 04:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

any links? or refernces? 64.131.205.111 08:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Here some links, and I also remember the history channel saying that majory of Dominican have Taino DNA. I don't have the text books with me; the 1st time i heard that taino didn't mix was here, in DR your told other wise. http://www.sastravelandtours.com/Tainos/Taino%20History.html http://www.hispaniola.com/dominican_republic/info/history.php Avfnx 10:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Warning to User talk:EdwinCasadoBaez
Warning for placing in information that can't be inferred from a cite. . The population statistic is unfounded and based on opinion. . Opinion with unsourced information. . Removing citations. Placing in NPOV wording to fit an agenda. Please make constructive edits, also please utilize the talk section. 64.131.205.111 03:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Let's cut down the warnings for non-vandal edits, and get on with collaboration and discussion. Not every differing opinion is a warnable offence. --  LeCour  T:C 05:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It now makes sense. 64.131.205.111 08:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Warning User talk:Avfnx
Welcome, and thank you for experimenting with the page Dominican Republic on Wikipedia. Your test worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. This is your final warning. The next time you remove cited material as you did here you will be blocked. 64.131.205.111 17:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

There different number on how many people so make sense to put the lowest number and say over. Like i said before im not going argue w/ you but i will work around you. And don't worry i will have new information on the immigration so your propaganda will stop. Read and you see there different number. And they were many reason why USA supported Trujillo, what u wanna name only one in how about we name them all in. Expand it if you want but don't drop it in like i said in your page block me then Avfnx 05:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

EdwinCasadoBaez
I reverted deletion of comments made be EdwinCasadoBaez on my talk page. I'd like to show the extreme behavior and irrational thinking that seems to becoming as a result of objective material that is being placed in the article. From the removal of words like mulatto] because it is now considered to be in the same league as [[negro and oriental, to the use of listings of abuses that occurred and were documented in the dominican republic by [[amnesty international] . To research from the CCNY Dominican Institute stating that the population is 90% of african ancestry.  I have been met with replies such as "Stop trying to portray the whole of DR as if it were Zambia or Gabon, because it isn't. Is not that it is " bad " to be dark skin African, but that is just the fact." "" Mulatto", wether is considered " offensive", that is subjective. Stop imposing North American " political correctness". "So stop this " all the America's is Kinta Kunte syndrome". Study some history before."   .  All in all maintaining a constructive and neutral article is what is being attempted. Please remember that this particular version of Wikipedia is the english speaking version that utilizes English customs.  So although negro may be alright in spanish culture it isn't in English culture.  It seems as if several highly patriotic members feel as if many things is an attack on them or their culture, when it's actually being neutal. [[User:64.131.205.111|64.131.205.111]] 03:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thats not my point!you come up to this article and then you think you cant revert every edit anybody makes here!thats what made me mad and i am still bugged about the way you revert thing!first of all you should get an account and stop using ur IP!!if you gonna edit show your name!I been editing here since november and I never had trouble with anybody except you for the fact that you think you can revert anybodys edit without concensus and then accusing me about vandalism!!if you inside wikipedia you should worry about concensus!they are three users right now that go against your edits and no body reverts them becuase we act like real wikipedians and dont take responsability for our self only!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

by the way this article you presented here shouldn't be used as a source because it was made by a reporter(his point of views) and not an actual fact. Dominican Laws state that Kids born I Dominican terriory from illegal parents shouldn't be treated as Dominican citizens. Thats the country's laws and we shouldn't be blamed for the problems Haiti is facing. United states is doing the same thing right now because they are deporting mexicans and all form of illegal immigrants. Why dont developed countries help Haiti?They Have xtreme amount of money and they cant spare some money to the haitian economy?why do Dominicans have to pay for Haiti's missery?this are some things you should think about before writing or editing pages!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Why does the USA have to pay for DR's misery? With all the illegal dominicans in the USA? It is life! So what... the USA only deports those they catch and the criminals. DR deports them all! 64.131.205.111 02:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If that was true then what about those 1 Million that in DR, we deport all right. Look even the Haitian government said DR has a right deport them. And they got have there papers to be in DR. USA actually doing raids now by the way. Avfnx 03:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you show me where the haitian government said it was ok to deport them or where the haitian government said it was ok for them to be mistreated. Which is something Leonal Fernandez admitted was going on? 64.131.205.111 19:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

It was news article on DR1.com while back (hey I didn't care much till a 30 million dollars campaign got lunch against Dominican Republic), and so you know OAS said it backing DR against propaganda of people like you, see how ya Amnesty, 2 priest propaganda goes (and since DR1 you got pay get old news i can send you a email):

5. OAS & UNESCO reps deny slavery The Organization of American States (OAS) new country representative Paul Duran said that the organization has no evidence that the authorities mistreat or abuse undocumented Haitians who travel and work in the Dominican Republic. Duran affirmed that the issue of Haitian migration is an internal issue for the Dominican government and that the OAS is willing to support any initiative by the government. Duran said that he knows that many Haitians work in different sectors of the Dominican economy, but that he personally has no knowledge of any abuse. Haitians have displaced Dominicans as street fruit vendors, construction workers, apartment concierge and watchmen, beggars, gardeners and increasingly are employed as resort workers. The statements by Duran come as a media firestorm surrounding what is being described as an anti-Dominican international publicity campaign dies down. Last week a documentary film released in France, Slaves in Paradise, depicted the life of Haitian laborers in the DR and made claims of slavery and mistreatment. The documentary sparked rage among many Dominicans, both in the DR and abroad, and was labeled as a manipulated attack against the DR and its sugar industry. In Paris, the charge d'affairs of Haiti before the United Nations Education, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), Madame Marie Denise Jean denied that there is slavery in the bateyes where Haitians that work in the sugar fields live, as reported in El Nacional. She spoke during a round table held at the French Parliament on "The Two Sides of Globalization: The Case of the Dominican Republic. At the event, 80 participants discussed the socioeconomic reality of the DR and the relations with Haiti. The comments came shortly after Catholic priests Ruquoy and Hartley spearheaded the presentation of a documentary on supposed slavery of the Haitians in the DR. {DR1.com} DR1 Daily News -- Thursday, 24 May 2007 Avfnx 06:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC) Wrong accusations of vandalism

User 64.131.205.111, again, not everything that opposes your point of view is vandalism. In fact, your deletion of Edwin's references could be considered one. You undid his edit just because you haven't seen the reference given. Dominican 13:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Dominican here. The removal of a source together with removing of vandalism is disruptive editing. If you want to debate a source to so on the talk page. Also this book is in no way "alleged" as it is available at the University of Miami libraries. VirtualDelight 18:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * No one is disagreeing if a book exists, but if the source cannot be read by others. There is a problem with verifiability.   .  We have to be able to easily locate the source as is wiki policy.   It is vandalism when user dominican erases the crime section.  Which exists in other articles including the United States and Russia.  The removal of cited material (every sentence was cited is vandalism.  64.131.205.111 18:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You could verify it. You only need to go to the University of Miami libraries. Or, if you can't go, you may request an Inter-Library-Loan through the one of an accredited institution (like CCNY, for example).Dominican 19:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The link only shows a book exists. Please provide the exact sentence or a photo of the sentence so that we can view it here. 64.131.205.111 20:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a whole section right above to discuss the inclusion or removal of the crime section. As Dominican states, the source is available. But your mixing up of vandalism reverts and removing of sources indeed is a valid concern shared by multiple editors of this page. If you want to remove a source, to discuss this on the talk page. VirtualDelight 19:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I will add citation needed for sources that may be considered to be POV. For the crime section every sentence is verifiable. Please take note of this. Dominican stated that he would agree to a crime section if i made it so that it would be included in other nations article in the carribean; after i pointed out that a section exists in the USA, Russia and Nigeria articles. This is blackmail and hijacking and in no way contributes to good faith. 64.131.205.111 19:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Dont Revert my edits!!please dont revert my edits!I am tired of IP adresses reverting editsuser:EdwinCasadoBaez


 * who is reverting your edits?64.131.205.111 20:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * You did here . VirtualDelight 20:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

that edit was b/c it wasn't something that could be immediately viewed. I have ceased myself from things like that. i will though question the sources if it can't be readily viewed. 64.131.205.111 20:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

IP..You have done it a couple of times. If i place a reference i am not going to lie about it!I am trying to make this article the best possible not to destroy it with false References. I have the book next to me. It's not a popular book because it was released by Banreservas a bank in the Dominican Republic celebrating Cultural events in Santo Domingo(Fragmentos De Patria;Santo Domingo)EdwinCasadoBaez 22:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I Used that Book too in the Article Ciudad Colonial and no body deleted the reference so please lets try not to revert edits. Please lets reach concensus before deleting something!

I think we should Implements some of this rules


 * Lets Stop Hating eachothers and saying "Offensive" stuff(That fits me too..because i have done it but i stoped it as long as others follow the rule too)
 * Lets reach concensus when making edits or reverting edits
 * Concensus should be reached by voting in controversial cases. Those voters can be any wikipedian that edits on this article ONLY


 * Lets Try to get along and make this a nice discussion team. Forget About the Past, buddies is time to work.

EdwinCasadoBaez 22:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources, please!
Please note that almost every source listed in this article is not a reliable source. Google searches are not reliable sources. Travel websites (www.st-maarten.com, www.visiting-the-dominican-republic.com, www.godominicanrepublic.com) are not reliable sources. Emails from non-experts are not a reliable source. The CIA World Factbook and ESPN are reliable sources. So, arguably, is Amnesty International. You may disagree with any reliable source, but that is less relevant. --  LeCour  T:C 05:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

CIA factbook is reliable to a degree due to the fact that they are a governmental organization involved in espionage as well as other activities including subversion. They aren't a strong research organization especially when it comes to specific nations. Their stats are based on a collection of information derived from other sources. I'm a proud american, but that is a fact. I do believe that the Dominican Institute at CCNY is a strong research organization. . Travel websites aren't strong, but at this point a weak citation is better than no citation. 64.131.205.111 06:10, 23 May 2007(UTC)

How is the Dominican Instiute a reliable source when they not even In D.R...if you talk about research in the UASD university in Santo Domingo it would be a reliable source but not if its an institute that is 2,000 miles away from the country and it gets it research from other locations!but anyways...lets try to work this out!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Look the words that CIA uses"

Dominican Republic Disputes - international: Definition Field Listing Haitian migrants cross the porous border into the Dominican Republic to find work; illegal migrants from the Dominican Republic cross the Mona Passage each year to Puerto Rico to find better work.

Puerto Rico increasing numbers of illegal migrants from the Dominican Republic cross the Mona Passage to Puerto Rico each year looking for work

Haiti since 2004, about 8,000 peacekeepers from the UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH) maintain civil order in Haiti; despite efforts to control illegal migration, Haitians cross into the Dominican Republic and sail to neighboring countries; Haiti claims US-administered Navassa Island. look at those words and saying it not bias Avfnx 03:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that the CIA isn't a good source? 64.131.205.111 03:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm saying CIA has it own agenda, so how can you say it a good source when they spin thing there way. You know there way of saying the truth but still spin it. And for there record last year the CIA didn't mention the immigration problem in Haiti or PR, only in DR page. Remember the CIA is a government agency so yea im saying not good source. See how the USA is above the EU only in the CIA source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29. that my point, look at the words how they use it. Same scenario Haitian going DR for work, Dominican going PR for work but which country looks better. That all im saying people have there agenda like your self, you out to prove to the world "how bad Dominicans treat the Haitians". By your own words if so bad then why do they, come could be that DR give them what there own government don't. The same as the USA give Dominicans what DR don't. And getting deported on skin color, well that happen here too. There report of Spanish people getting stop and ask for there paper, based on what you say there skin color. DR might not be the most moral country in the World, and im not saying it is. But we no way near of South Africa, or the USA for that matter. There no KKK in DR or anything near it. With out DR, Haiti will be in a worst off, guess what the world doesn't seem to care about Haiti. DR does, there next to it and if get worst then there be more pressure on the natural resources than they already putting. Look for what it is a poor country needing help it self (DR) pleading with the world to help Haiti, to give Haiti what it was promise to them. DR no super power, rich, or a country in a position to help out no one, if it was why there be so many Dominican all around the world and sending money back home to take care there family. Avfnx 06:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Alright, so Dominicans are upset at Haitians for coming in and taking jobs. But Dominicans are leaving and taking jobs as well in PR and the USA. The population though hasn't changed. So if it hasn't changed, why can't DR's economy support the same population? Haiti is in the middle of political upheaval. People are leaving b/c they might get killed. People don't get deported because of skin color in the USA, they get deported because they don't have paperwork. Irish, Russians, Jews, Spansih, they all get deported. Dr is not like South Africa was? Well, tell me how it isn't! People who arent' citizens? mistreated by the government because of their race. No healthcare? It's probably worse than south africa was. The USA? well tell me how that is the case? The united states will give citizenship to anyone born in the USA. DR won't do that. THere is no KKK in DR because the KKK was a private organization. You don't need the KKK in DR because the Dominican government has been doing it for decades. DR is happy that Haiti is doing bad. If it weren't all the tourists would be going to Haiti instead of DR. 64.131.205.111 16:56, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

So you learn something if Haiti was doing well then DR would benefit from it, Haiti is the second trading partner of DR. They buy lot of Dominican goods...so here a thought if they were doing better then guess what they be more trade and more money going on. Haiti doing bad is bad for DR, it put more pressure on DR, and there less trade. Like when the USA economy goes down then so those the DR. I don't know where u get that from they deny health care, but once again it against the law of DR to deny health care, tell me why do Haitian take a cab from the border to Santiago to give birth in free public hospital, they do that cause they going get deny health care. Like i said before DR not trying be mini USA, we don't follow American laws we go our own laws. What happen in in May 1st rubber bullets against women, elderly and children you find that ok, and they doing raids, and asking people in the middle the streets for paper (you stuff you don't see in English news, but we see in Spanish news). And other thing we compete with the riches country in the Caribbean (PR) for tourists and are winning, against ya little baby. So get your fact straight. So know something DR would have been a richer country if was for strong country trying take over it, and stealing from it. DR has never any country in the world, but had to fight for it sovereignty so sorry if we have little little hurtle to get the citizenship like the USA you have know English and it history, and pay, everyone has there hurtle. And for the record Haitian is not a race, this much you know, and there lot black Dominicans, and before you say well then attack on black most the police and soldier force in DR is black skin. Avfnx 21:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Ill be honest with you. I can barely understand what you're writing b/c of your grammar. You say that there is no denial of health care, but articles and sources say differently. Maybe the media is feeding you something different. Secondly on May 1st.. the police were attacked by people throwing rocks and bullets. You compete against the richest country in the carribean and are winning? Says who? there is more to a nation than tourism. The GPD in PR is $74.89 billion in DR its 20 billion.. Where do you get your information from? Really now... Haiti is not a race and neither is dominican. Having black skin and being black are different. Many people from Pakistan have black skin but they aren't black. 64.131.205.111 00:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

My grammar might not be as good as should be, but let me go straight to the point...in tourism we are #1 that all I was saying. Other thing the PR government went bankrupt the other day, that haven't happen in DR. PR has the world super power looking after it, so not a fair match... but if USA pull it support how long do you think it will last... been the richest country in the Caribbean. DR been standing two feet from day one, and has shown the world that no foreign army will be allow in Dominican soil. If comes down to having sovereignty or been rich, i side with my country Father... sovereignty at all cost. so sorry for my country history of standing up for our self, for the pride of my people not letting other nation flag fly above ours. I don't know what you have against DR, or what make you think you better or whatever but you really need stop been so narrow minded. One thing is reading other thing is seen it for your own self. I seen what goes on in the free hospital. I know whatever DR does will not be good enough for other country or people. I end with this DR might not be the riches country in the Caribbean but it is the leader and have the full support of the Caribbean.

"Nuestra Patria ha de ser libre e independiente de toda Potencia extranjera o se hunde la isla" Juan Pablo Duarte

Avfnx 01:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

So even though the PR government went bankrupt it is still richer than DR. What does that say about DR? Bankers in DR defrauded the government out of 2.2 billion dollars and DR had to take an emergency loan from the IMF for 670 million dollars, or else it would have been bankrupt. . So DR is the leader of the Carribean? What happened to Jamaica? Cuba? Trinidad? you should seriously do some research. 64.131.205.111 02:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Cuba is been isolated by USA not much they can do, Dominican Republic has the biggest market in the Caribbean, has the biggest democratic army, Dominican Republic has taken a leader position in the Caribbean when doing a free trade deal EU with the whole Caribbean, DR speaking on it behalf. DR had take a loan from IMF, and PR had ask daddy (USA) for money. PR not rich the USA is. Is a different when daddy give you money then when you earn it. DR plays a bigger role then you think. When going for a UN seat Dominican had the Caribbean having it back. Avfnx 03:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah i think DR could present it's self more of like a leader in the Caribbean even thougth the Economy of Puerto Rico is bigger, it has a Higher Per Capita GDP and a better HDI but they still not independent. When any catastrophy happens in P.R the United states federal Govt goes to help them. When a catastrophy or crisis happens in D.R who helps us??we have to hope for donations and ask for loans that we have to repay afterwards. PR and DR are uncomparable because of the fact that DR is and independent Nation of the caribbean and if you Consider the fact that PR is not a formal Nation you cant compare. PR gets the Armed forces protection from the USA while DR has to figure out a way to even have an ARMY. In general theres a lot of things that PR has priviledge that DR doesnt.
 * Cuba is down under the repression of the USA and other countries.Jamaica is a small Country with developmen but not enough and Haiti is a country undergoing all types of crisis which leaves us as the one with the highest economic growth presently with a 9.0 to 11.0%(GDP-PPP-) but anyways i think we have to go back into the topicsEdwinCasadoBaez 07:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If you're basing it on Per Capita income than you better go to Cuba because Cuba has a much larger per capita than DR. DR is 3,500, Cuba is 3,900. When DR was in catastrophe from a hurricane, Cuba helped them out! If you like you can start making comparisons between Cuba and DR and I bet you that Cuba will blow DR out the water. Cuba eliminted racism and colorism.. something that DR has yet to do! 64.131.205.111 07:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Nop you are wrong. DR has a 67 USD Billion GDP and has a Per Capita of $8,000*** according to the CIA world Fact book while PUerto Rico Has a 19,000$ per Capita according to The WIkipedia Infobox. CUba is left behind Becuz of the Blockage it has from USA and other powerfull countries!and jamaica has a small economy!

But as i said Dominican Republic has the strongest economy and biggest tourism out of the Independent Caribbean Countries(Even thought i dont have the sources with me)EdwinCasadoBaez 23:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Guys...anyone has new information about the History of DR that is sourced????i think is time to work on this!EdwinCasadoBaez 23:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I like to expand...
The Dominincan Republic offered the United States to take it over as a colony for 1.5 million dollars but the United States Congress refused. There more to that, like Santana giving DR to Spain. How Los Trinitario was the only movement really wanting make DR free country while the other movement wanted give to USA,France, Spain etc. I would like to expand that to reflect the history behind it, but my source is Spanish book that i would like help finding a source on the web, cause I haven't really any good one, that explain it. Avfnx 14:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC) find it in english or a tranlated version. 64.131.205.111 15:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * From Wikipedia:Verifiability, the official policy:

"Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Keep in mind that translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Wikipedia editor or a professional, published translator. In principle, readers should have the opportunity to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly. Therefore, when the original material is in a language other than English:
 * Where sources are directly quoted, published translations are generally preferred over editors performing their own translations directly.
 * Where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source as a quote in an article, there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation."

As a start here a link to a source in English: [Richard A. Haggerty, ed. Dominican Republic: A Country Study. Washington: GPO for the Library of Congress, 1989.] There is a wide consensus on this source to be a reliable source and its in the public domain. VirtualDelight 15:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with user virtualdelight on the use of the library of congress link 64.131.205.111 16:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Dominican
What was the purpose or removing this link? (from 1930-1961 known as Ciudad Trujillo http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dominican_Republic&diff=next&oldid=133972903  64.131.205.111 15:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As far as I see Dominican has not removed this information from the article. Look again, Dominican only removed it once. The information is given twice, which I think to be unnecessary. It was removed from the article by an IP editor here . I would like to suggest, as you state yourself in your edit summary (the name ciudad trujillo is the nations history. it very much belongs in the article.), to move this information to the history section. The infobox should not be cluttered up with to much information, especially if this information is about the history of the country only. As the sentence "He also renamed many towns and provinces after himself and his family, including the capital city Santo Domingo." is in the article I would suggest to change this sentence to "He also renamed many towns and provinces after himself and his family, including the capital city Santo Domingo to Ciudad Trujillo from 1930 - 1961. ".   VirtualDelight 15:43, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

User:Dominican has removed it on a number of occassions. If you do a wiki search of ciudad trujillo you'll go to santo dominigo. There are some people who still refer to it as being ciudad trujillo. This is the nations capital and thus is of prime importance. 64.131.205.111 15:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The search in Wikipedia leads to Santo Domingo because the article on Ciudad Trujillo was turned into a redirect to this article after the information was merged into the Santo Domingo article. This however does not change the fact that the name of the city since 1961 is Santo Domingo again. "Some people who ..." is not a valid argument to include this historical fact into the infobox designed to give up to date information of the country. I however agree, as stated above, that this information is important enough, but not of prime importance, to be included in the history section in the way I have proposed or in another way you may propose. I also would be interested in the view on this by other editors. VirtualDelight 16:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I Personally think that The Sentences of Ciudad trujillo should be included in a small paragraph in the History section of The Dominican Republic article and it should be given more importance in the Santo Domingo city Article but not In the Dominican Republic article

Timeline of leaders and ownership of the Dominican Republic.
This seems to be the most accurate that i've seen to date in terms of who ran the colony. Translated from Spanish 64.131.205.111 07:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC) A few other good reads are 64.131.205.111 07:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) http://dr1.com/news/2002/dnews073002.shtml
 * 2) http://www.prfiestas.com/Web%20Entertainment/FW%20Famous%20Puerto%20Ricans.htm
 * 3) http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:oatRh_MbqGYJ:www.geog.umd.edu/homepage/courses/313/Lectures/geog323_lecture7_Exodus%2520to%2520and%2520from%2520the%2520Continent.ppt+Joaqu%C3%ADn+Balaguer+puerto+father&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=21&gl=us
 * 4) http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=23864
 * 5) http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/merengue/sdhmerengue.htm

User:64.131.205.111 let me tell you some points here
Hey...i want to tell that we should try to stop the consistent arguements...We should ignore bad comments from others but at the same time do good!

in the past week we all been kinda of arguing in all of this edits and stuff...We have been arguing for nonsense and we not going anywhere with this..we should to bring him back...IP 64.131.205.111, since you were the one that argued the most with platanogenius please try to help him out!!!!please um-block him!I want him back over here..he has important views that we need in wikipedia

Guys over here, try to help to bring platanogenius back:


 * User:EdwinCasadoBaez
 * User:Dominican
 * User:VirtualDelight
 * User:64.131.205.111

We should all try to help out bring platanogenius back..he is a great guy and should be banned over here!we should now be in peace and bring him back because he is a great editor even thougth he did a lot of bad comments over here(i did too)...Does anybody know how to unblock somebody here????EdwinCasadoBaez 23:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * User:platanogenius will have to advocate for his own unblocking. He was banned for repeatedly making personal attacks, and disruptive editing on this, and other, articles - after being previously warned, and blocked, for the same material.  A good way to encourage him to come back would be to post on his talk page, requesting that he cease making personal attacks and being disruptive.  --Haemo 00:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to advocate for his return. I liked his passion, but he took it to heart and attacked other users and displayed racism towards others. Which should get people banned. I can mention the repeated times he went about doing this, but you can simply scroll up and see it. 64.131.205.111 01:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * On a procedural note User:platanogenius is not banned but blocked for an indefinite time. But I agree with Haemo that he will have to make his own case in appealing his block. Given his editing history and blocking reason in my view he would have to convince the admin reviewing an unblock request that he understands that he has broken rules, that he wants to abide by the rules and that he would edit for the good of the project in the future. But to do this I think is something only he himself can do. VirtualDelight 09:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

you're back again? just ask to get unblocked user:platanogenius 64.131.205.111 20:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

explain to me like if I were a 4 year old what was it that sounded antihaitian?
Last time I check this articled included the official World Facts Book information which I believe is updated regularly, while someone (I'm going to presume it's you)bases the percentage of the Dominican population on a CUNY Essay. And for your info, you sounded a racist yourself by calling me "platanogenious". And for your information everybody knows that 11% of the population is black (unmixed with eighther white or native american) and everybody knows that the last few indians that remained on the island eventually assimilated into the general population. left by 22:37, 31 May 2007 24.199.88.22 (Talk)

Yes!!!we should include information based from the CIA world fact book not from some Stupid(For me is personally) CUNY City College Dominican Institute. CUNY Dominican Institute does research and Surveys while CIA gets more of an accurate information from the Dominican Government. I (Personally) believe we should place the actual figures of CIA and forget the Dominican Institute. Anyways, People will trust more the CIA facts than a small group of Researches like Da Dominican Institute!EdwinCasadoBaez 02:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's keep a level head here.
I notice that quite a few, in their haste to revert sockpuppet edits, are accidentally reverting normal constructive edits. In particular, the last revert knocked out some disambig work a user was doing. I hope we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater as we're policing this article.--Rosicrucian 01:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

the post above yours is typical platanogenius manifesto. 64.131.205.111 02:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I posted some new demographics and fixed the culture section. I gave sources as well so my contributions are not seen as "unhelpful" or "unconstructive." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fabre08 (talk • contribs).
 * You know, we've got about three or four different users not signing their talkpage comments. Could somebody please start? I'm beginning to think you really are all the same user.--Rosicrucian 03:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

fabre08 is a sockpuppet. 64.131.205.111 03:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, I'm holding out until I see the results of this investigation before I write him off as a sockpuppet. If you have evidence though, feel free to post it in the evidence section.--Rosicrucian 04:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

look at some of the contributions    removing of links, changing of demographics  , and same old removal of cited material  64.131.205.111 04:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I give up...you guys are probably angry haitians with an inferiority complex that just want to make the DR look like Haiti #2...you should spend your time helping your country because its going more and more downhill while the DR progresses every day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fabre08 (talk • contribs) PLEASE SIGN YOUR POSTS WITH ~

How Do you know Fabre 8 is a sock puppet?Do You have prove?You just cant be judging people over here...You can me a mistake accusing the wrong person!EdwinCasadoBaez 02:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

DAMN I AM SO GETTING MAD OVER HERE!User:64.131.205.111 is acussing everyone of sock puppet!You cant just blame somebody or accuse him of sock puppet just because of his edits! If He didnt do the right editing! I think User:64.131.205.111 goal is to block every single dominican! I'm lossin my patience again!i cant handle this anymore!DAMN!EdwinCasadoBaez 02:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Chill out! No one is out to "get" Dominicans, and you shouldn't take it personally that users who vandalize continually get blocked for it. --Haemo 03:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've got to admit I've been a bit frustrated with User:64.131.205.111 as well. While I'll caution you to assume good faith, I'll also say that he does seem a bit overzealous. Yes, there are probably a few socks lurking around. No, not everyone arguing for a given viewpoint is a sock of Platanogenius. It was a little disturbing how quickly the sockpuppet case and request for CheckUser got out of hand, and in the end I think that in accusing everyone and their brother of being a sockpuppet ultimately kept us from catching the real ones.


 * But what's done is done. Here's hoping we can have a good civil discussion on this page and arrive at a revision of the article we can all stand behind. I think we're all getting a little too twitchy on the accusations of vandalism, and we need to take a deep breath and work together.


 * And I had to wade through two edit conflicts just to post this, so yeah, let's simmer down.--Rosicrucian 03:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * well they are over 5 acussed members of sock puppetry...just because they dont agree with how things are here they shoun't be acussed just for the fact that they "vandalize"!THIS IS SAD!EdwinCasadoBaez 03:19, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * User:Memeco is not a sock puppet of PlatanoGenius!Please remove him from the Suspect list!!!His is my cousin which was under the name of user:Jonathanmbaez..Do to the fact that he was a Newbie he committed a biggggggggg mistake his first time here..deleting the whole section of history by mistake which caused him a fast block!But his second time around he said his here for contructive opinions and edits!PLEASE REMOVE HIM FROM THE LIST!EdwinCasadoBaez 03:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually at this point since the CheckUser came up inconclusive, most of the sock tags can be removed by pretty much anyone. At any rate, I'm willing to move forward regardless and get the allegations of sockpuppetry behind us.--Rosicrucian 03:53, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Starting some fresh discussion.
Just a few points to try to put everyone on common ground here. That's what immediately comes to mind as a decent starting point for consensus. What do you guys think?--Rosicrucian 03:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nobody should be reverted out of hand. At present, we've got no confirmed socks of anyone, so there's no reason to revert someone as a known vandal just yet unless what they post is actually vandalism. Everything else is just a content dispute, and calling things vandalism when they aren't leads to edit warring. Above all, assume good faith. If I see people reverting non-vandal edits and calling them vandalism, I'm going to start issuing edit war, personal attack, or AGF warnings on talkpages. I hope other users will join me in this, as we really can't operate if this sort of stuff continues.
 * Don't bite the newbies. In correlation to my first point, don't assume anyone who starts heavily editing the article is a sock or otherwise somehow wrong. This article attracts a lot of native Dominicans, and a lot of them have pretty strong feelings about the article. They may look like single-purpose accounts at first, but in many cases they're just passionate about their native country.
 * More information is more information. We are trying to be as informative as possible here. Take the dispute over the CIA World Factbook statistics for example. We've let ourself get in an edit war for fear of sock puppets, but take a look. The factbook presents more data in a more reliable fashion than the other source. I can name dozens of other articles on many different nations that use it for their demographic links. Generally, this establishes consensus that this is a reliable source, and I don't see how quoting it directly can be considered PoV. If we want this article to reach Good Article or Featured Article status, this is a safe bet. Beyond that, Wikipedia cautions us against ever flat-out reducing the amount of information in an article. Yes, insufficiently sourced claims have to be removed after ample chance has been given to source them, but above all else we want to inform people.
 * Great idea!I been saying this for the Past week!lets see if now it works!EdwinCasadoBaez 03:53, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I saw that, and I'm grateful for your efforts. Sometimes it just takes a fresh topic to re-emphasize this stuff, is all.--Rosicrucian 04:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Even with a few setbacks vandalistic sockpuppets were found  and blocked  64.131.205.111 17:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Edited " under a free government of color"
On the headline "Creation and Development of the Republic", I edited the line " under a free government of color" because the link to the resource does not state anything relating to any racial prejudice. The wordings are too judgemental to be reliable.

http://www.hispaniola.com/dominican_republic/info/history.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmyjones1122 (talk • contribs)

Shouldn't the Trinitarias picture be there instead of Ulises?
The paragraph have more information on the Trinitarias than Ulises, the picture is out of sync.

Also, the paragraph states "Ramón Matías Mella and Francisco del Rosario Sánchez (the latter one being a mestizo[4]), in spite of not being among the founding members, went on to be decisive in the fight for independence and are now hailed (along with Duarte) as the Founding Fathers of the Dominican Republic"

which claims that they are hailed by dominicans as the founders of the republic and the headline is titles "Creation and Development of the Republic".

Wouldn't it be more logical to put the Trinitarias pictures there instead of a general in the war of restoration? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmyjones1122 (talk • contribs)

Edited the demographics section
The reference states that 90% of dominicans are black and mulattoes. The current statement on the page states only partial information based on the supplied reference.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0094-582X(199805)25%3A3%3C126%3ATTOBSI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmyjones1122 (talk • contribs)
 * I've since redone the sourcing on that and included both the CIA factbook statistics and the CUNY study. Hopefully this is an acceptable compromise.--Rosicrucian 19:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Please follow Wikipedia guidelines on this page
This talk page is becoming basically unreadable, and simply because people are getting lazy and ignoring guidelines:


 * Please use proper net etiquette on this page - this means:
 * Writing in whole, English, sentences.
 * Spelling words correctly, and not using "AOL Speak".
 * User proper grammar, punctuation, and capitalization.


 * Please assume good faith about your fellow editors - this means:
 * Listen to their arguments.
 * Do not accuse them of being sockpuppets without strong evidence.
 * Do not revert their edits with good reason.


 * Do not be incivil or engage in name-calling or personal attacks
 * SIGN YOUR POSTS BY TYPING ~ 

If we can all follow these, this page will actually be able to get some work done. Haemo 22:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Immigration
I would like to fix the immigration, cause most of it is propaganda and no true. even the Haitian government says it, there be a hopefully be passing a resolution passing by the AOS so this anti-Dominican propaganda stops. . There more coming. Avfnx 03:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * So, what, exactly, do you object to in the section? I re-wrote it to remove editorializing, just now. --Haemo 03:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually removed a whole whack of stuff which has just about zippo to do with immigration, and is more properly covered on the linked "Demographics" page. --Haemo 03:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've also re-written some other section, which contain material unrelated to their subjects. --Haemo 03:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No objecting the way is now. But i bet there be propaganda once again in few days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avfnx (talk • contribs)
 * Not if I have anything to say about it. --Haemo 03:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Told you that wasn't going last to long Avfnx 04:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Haitian Emigration into the Dominican Republic immigration then to be one side it. Avfnx 04:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see any substantive change to what I wrote there. --Haemo 05:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Contrary to some beliefs that are current on the talk page. This article isn't pro dominican or anti dominican. It is simply a neutral point of view. If something states a bad part of history, that doesnt make it anti-dominican. A Haitian Emigration into DR section was included due to the almost 1 million Haitians living in DR which account for about 13% of the population. A few other changes were made as well due to inclusions by alleged sockpuppets 64.131.205.111 05:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The count of Dominican Editors gone are three! User:Jonathanmbaez User:EdwinCasadoBaez User:Platanogenius innocent people are being dammed by this plagued!69.119.127.181 06:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't vandalise or make personal attacks and people won't be blocked or banned. 64.131.205.111 06:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

This is why i hear everyday a school teacher that says wikipedia is one of the worst sites to get information from!and now i get it!it makes perfect sense!This thing is not going to become better if people keep blocking wikipedians by innocent reasons and false accussations!i dont think we going to go anywhere with this!A consistent Anti-Dominican Hate from The world and even from haiti..but why?why such misinformation to thousands of readers that see dominican pages?why do such an atrossity?why false accuse somebody?Why use annonymous account and harrass other users plaguing them with false warnings and acussations?why act like an administrators when you are really arent?why not use Democratic ideals in some of this article?why not using concensus instead of reverting every other edit a wikipedian makes?why act like a WP:OWN of the article? this are questions some wiki users should answer!69.119.127.181 07:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Everyone who has been blocked has been so for violating Wikipedia guidelines. Stick around and play by the rules, and make this article better.  --Haemo 07:22, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I Dont think so buddy!i think theirs more into this than only not following wiki guidelines!How are we gonna follow guidelines when not even annonymous users and administrators are not following the guidelines???Theirs such a plague of anti dominicanism that following guidelines would not help at all!i tried to do that over three times and nothing worked out!so why try?69.120.74.120 07:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm tired of all this arguing we never going anywhere like that. I like to point out simply that there two side to the story and only one getting played out, I think we should have a cool head, and come to a middle ground or find a way to include both point of view. All this arguing not going help no one, it only take time away from making this page better. The emigration of Haitian to DR, htat really should be point immigration if emigration then should be put in the Haiti page, i think the only reason have that in was to promote that fiction documentary. go up and see that the Haitian it self is saying that they no such thing going on. We all see when a resolution get pass in the AOS. See I haven't touch the immigration part, i want to talk about it first. Let get some work done, and be open mind it. Like on Trujillo part, it not what i wanted it but hey close enough. We can make this better article, let work together...History is written better when more then one point of view get in put in, we can make article everyone agree with...there should be no extreme point of view, or agenda which does seem to go on a lot on this page. This page was better before but now really need lot of work...i doubt that be include on Wikipedia CD Selection if this keep going on.  Avfnx 18:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The section looks pretty good to me right now - Haitian emigration is an important consideration with respect to the demographics of the Dominican republic, and should be explained. I'll re-write the section to make it a little more neutral.  --Haemo 23:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * exactly considering they make up over 10% of the population! 64.131.205.111 23:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I re-wrote it a little, and merged it back with the other immigration section; it doesn't really need it's own section, since it's so short. I also fixed some references. --Haemo 23:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Now that we talking about slavery why not include this article. Avfnx 00:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * (deindent) I have just done so, thank you. --Haemo 00:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you, now we going somewhere Avfnx 00:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

You couldn't leave how it was, fine let put more information in there. You get you cited info I will get mines. If that not prove this guy has agenda against DR I don't know what is. Why do people in world want give DR a bad image. If you feel the way you feel, why not focuses how make Haiti better. For the record Haiti article barely say anything about DR, but the DR got say something about Haiti. This article really going down the drain. If the only article i seen that speak more about other country. I vote let rename it Haiti article part II. I tried keep a cool head but I tired of this Anti-Dominican propaganda going on. Once again it wasn't that put Haiti to the state that is today, why such attention Haitian in DR, why not how Haiti need some help. Wanna know why Dominican are getting tired of Haitian in DR, cause the bad image they give us. Remember DR never invade Haiti...Haiti has invade DR 4x. Even in the last revolution talking about DR next, like a Dominican general said like easy cross to the border, the same way our tanks can cross the border. I'm not anti-Haitian, or racist...im a Pro-Dominican...the land i was born and i tired of the world trying blame DR for Haiti problems...it easy talk about DR doing this or that...but why don't we talk about what the world has done for Haiti...DR begs the world to help, to keep there promise...i tired of this...and one the reason i got in this cause of this propaganda going on...even on Duarte article...Trinitario inspire the KKK what other lie is there going on. If Merengue came from Haiti why is that no one ever heard of meringue...spanish came from Haiti too...oh wait they tried destroy it, the Spanish culture...they were right and we were right we shouldn't...we should stay one country so we could been in the same hell hole they in. No one ever wonder why so many people keep getting block...could be that we care about DR. you don't see me going in the Haitian article talking about the crime they do in DR, how they rob the cattle in border...how Dominicans were getting rob few years back... about the people they have kill...i don't cause that don't matter is only few people that do that, most them are honest workers, especially the one that have worked for my dad and the one i got to know. I'm tired, of all this, i have tired talk about it, but one users keep on and on and on, and this administrator don't seem to care and block anyone that get on the way.  didn't we reach agreement, why the push  AvFnx 04:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Because we have to respect a neutral point of view, which means presenting both sides of any situation that occurs. --Haemo 04:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That article seem to be onside to me, denying Citizenship  they not in tittle to it. And the health care ima find a page that simply untrue. I might seem hot head and im sorry, but you got understand there a Dominican propaganda going on and AI is part of it. I don't feel it neutral...some of things are simply straight up lies. You got be legal in DR for you children get the citizenship is that simply, it a Dominican law, if you agree w/ it or not is not the point is our right of been as a Free country have our own laws. the point was is that could never be neutral...once we agree on something someone got keep pushing. And you know what ima push too. AvFnx 04:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I know what you mean, but for many people the notion of "birthright citizenship" is a fundamental human right, and denying it is a major cause for concern; that's what places like Amnesty International and other NGOs get so upset. --Haemo 04:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * But Italy has right of blood, no one says nothing about them, but DR that poor people got make a big deal of it. and once again im sorry for seem a little hot head. But i only want get different point of view...i not disagreeing w/ what was put in...is that i felt we agree on something. I don't want to go back and forward you get this info i get that. Even if the article is more side to one side, i agree with it. I really think that if keep going the way going no one going win, people that made good inputs getting blocked. AvFnx 04:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Many countries don't - but many countries also don't have a large illegal population to really make it an issue, either. I see you added some context - that's good; it's important to keep it balanced.  The people who got blocked were blocked for being disruptive, and making personal attacks - you don't seem to be doing either, so that's excellent.  --Haemo 05:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I only want make this the best I can, and I know that one point of view is no good, only cause I don't agree don't mean I right. I only wish we can move pass this. Settle on something and move on making better. I don't want be disruptive, or take it personal I'm here to learn, I thought was only the AI i have learn that also the NGO. I also try talk out here before editing, if i feel is something that people might disagree. We all hear tell the world what we know, and learn from one other, this what make this so great, people as your self...keep a cool head above else. I'm new at this, before i edit a little that it, but now i got into it, and im still learning. And i like thank you for helping me, and listen. AvFnx


 * I appreciate that, but it looks like this is going to be an issue for a while, until everyone kind of comes to an agreement about what that section is going to look like. --Haemo 05:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Contrary to some beliefs that are current on the talk page. This article isn't pro dominican or anti dominican. It is simply a neutral point of view. If something states a bad part of history, that doesnt make it anti-dominican. A Haitian Emigration into DR section was included due to the almost 1 million Haitians living in DR which account for about 13% of the population. 64.131.205.111 05:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)"


 * how come u say here that there is almost i million haitians in D.R...so how come 1.5 million can speak Haitian Creole Fluently????as you stated long before in this discussion?69.119.127.181 05:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Gah...
Reading the latest spate of edits by 146.95.167.95 just made me cringe. Highly slanted, and nearly vandalistic. No real way to support something that PoV. He seems to be doing similar on related articles. Has anyone spoken to him?--Rosicrucian 22:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

that's the same guy who keeps putting in the same edits.. the creative writing dude. we aren't subject to 3rr for vandalism so don't worry about it. we can simply revert it. he's been pretty consistent with it. check the archives of this talk page and earlier conversations about it. 64.131.205.111 00:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Words
As a result of this brutality the Dominican Republic was forced to pay Haiti $750,000.00. that how was put in the article. The 1937 "incident" was settled through diplomatic channels and the Dominican Republic agreed to pay an indemnity of $750,000. this how was put in the cited source page. It seem to me someone putting the own option on this. AvFnx 04:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

should i change it to massacre? "Trujillo ordered the massacre of Haitians living"  64.131.205.111 04:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine go with massacre but put the whole story don't cherry pick History fit your agenda. That talk about the USA role, How Haiti killed cover agents (which can cause war if done to some countries) and no where does it say DR was force to pay, it was act of war and Haiti wanted money instead. See how i can twist things, you not the only one that can play with words. AvFnx 05:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

if you look at the links it was not an act of war. there was no war going on at the time between DR and Haiti! antihaitianimo has gotten to you. 64.131.205.111 05:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I Dont think he ever called it a Massacre...it should be called more like an probable act of Genocide!!!69.119.127.181 05:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

genocide it is! 64.131.205.111 05:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey you should get more Reliable sources...the sources you get are weak and not very recognized medias!try using books or organized internet sources!69.119.127.181 05:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * this looks good http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-54454/Dominican-Republic

Let get Haitian page...yea sure that makes neutral. Can I ask you a question, what do you have against DR, and it people. I see you willing go out your way push your own agenda. AvFnx 05:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Doing that to someone country is a act of war, any country done that to will declare war. I never said a war was going on, only that it was a act of war, and haiti decided to get paid. I think your true Anti-Dominican is starting to show. AvFnx 05:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

again, just because i'm a fan of truth doesn't make me anti-dominican. you seem to be very patriotic, but don't let that nationalism blind you. the massacres occurred in the dominican nation, not in the haitian country. thus it was an internal issues. 64.131.205.111 05:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

All i ask was to use the words of your cited source, i fan of the truth... but i don't like when people twist thing to there way. AvFnx 05:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah i think haitians are lacking nationalism the Same as the americans in the United States but we Dominicans dont!And we like things the were they are!!things in this article are very different to the truth when you visit D.R...is a beautifull country and haitians even interact with Dominican families. They marry Dominicans but their are things we still cant give to them. Because is against our Constitution and our law...we Cant ammend our constitution for No other immigrant!69.119.127.181 05:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

most nations are nationalistic, but almost all don't try to downplay their past. DR is as beautiful as Haiti. They are on the same island. Actually, you can amend your constitution, since it is based on the US constitutition. 64.131.205.111 06:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

And for the record don't ever call me anti-Haitiano you don't know me, all the Haitian i got know in my life in my life were hard working people, people that i admire. Most Haitian in DR teach them self spanish, not only those born in DR soil. I even got know a Haitian that knew 5 language, self taught. What i do have a problem is when outsider that no one called like some countries in Europe try tell both country what to do. Yes there immigration problem, as long you don't burn Dominican flag do you. But I like tell people it not the way the media put it, remember if all the attention goes to Haitian in DR, the world rich country actually get away with not giving Haiti the money that was promise. Both country are poor, and the rich country takes advantage of both. The world give DR money, then talk DR you been a bad country...now DR can't really say nothing cause it might loss money...Haiti on the keep getting poorer, DR barely afloat. What really fuels Anti-Haitian is this article of AI, and so one, every time they start talking that where thing get taken to other level. Dominicans don't want a bad name, and feel like the Haitian giving them a bad name...and some people are @55. Why not really say the problem Haiti is poor let fix it...no the world rich country can't do that cause easier for them wash the hands w/ DR. that how i feel...Oh and for the record my Cousin is dating a Haitian... and he welcome to the family. So once again you can bring all the documents you want but i don't see that world...on in case for sec is skin color...my fam is very light skin AvFnx

I'm saying you're buying into the brain washing instituted by Trujillo known as Antihaitianismo 64.131.205.111 07:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well Avfnx..i'm officially saying am out!And i'll leave ya!I guess you can handle things over here!make it a great article!I think am getting banned forever because of some people around here calling me disruptive and personally attacking!So i'll see ya later when everything cools down!(if it ever does) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.127.181 (talk • contribs)

Why Does the Article Focus so Much
Have you read the Haiti article, you should see how much DR get mention. If you read DR one you think every step taken was as one. But yet when you go to the Haiti article there barley any mention on DR. I don't know why people going out there way give DR a bad image, but hey let the world know no one doing that to Haiti...the story of history, DR never start no war it only defense it self. That what make a Dominican. AvFnx 05:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

so when 30,000 people were massacred.. who were they defending themselves against? 64.131.205.111 05:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

When the agents were killed...if some one kill CIA agents the USA going stay with arm cross?. And remember this Trujillo one man, that killed Dominicans of all races class, so he not going respond like a normal person cause he wasn't. Don't make seem like it was the people choice. When have DR people gone to Haiti side the border and attacked, invaded tried kill there culture. It funny how the aggressor looking like the victim...The same in the 1960's invading DR embassy, trying start a war and say DR did. I got nothing against no people, but i will not let Dominican name drag in mutt. We fought for our right to be called Dominican, from many country that invaded, and we still standing Dominicano DE PUra CEPA Praaaaaa AvFnx 05:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * listen.. the soldiers had choices.. like when trujillo was assasinated.  people can say no.  trujillo didn't kill all these people by himself. he had dominicans help him.  you do know that the DR embassy was in Haiti.  you have nothing against another nation as long as they don't drag the DR name thru the mud.  The united states isn't perfect, but damn it they don't act like they did nothing wrong!  sucio mono...  :64.131.205.111 05:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * did you know a embassy represent that nation soil, invading the embassy is basically invading the country...that time we had troops on the border scream what honor to die por la patria, hey no need for name calling...uaaa, give my banana...Listen to your logic, DR is evil, they racist, they treat the Haitian so bad...here one question why do they come to DR, they country poor...boo ho, they did that to them self. It not Dominican problem, when Haiti was on top remember Haiti rob Dominican Republic and left the new nation broke. So why should we really care what happen in Haiti, they didn't care about DR, and they don't. They want the Dominican citizenship only cause the Haiti one is not even worth dirt. Haitian turn they side the island to a desert, is that Dominican fault too. AvFnx 17:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Look...their's a harsh problem in D.R against immigration!D.R is a poor country and we cant handle the amount of people we have right now!so that why dominicans dont like haitians migrating to Dominican territory!We cant substain our economy with even only the dominicans so imagine having an extra million people!The reason so many dominicans are leaving D.R is simply becuase is so hard to live in the Country...so now we even have a bigger problem because haitians are migrating inside in alarming levels!When the 30,000 people were killed...it was made by the decision of a Dictator like Trujillo...Most likely the Dominican Society was against those violent crimes against Haitians too!

They are many reasons why Haitians and Dominicans Encounter so many problems...and i think we should all understand them before being one sided in the article!69.119.127.181 05:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

edwincasadobaez.. aren't you on block? 64.131.205.111 05:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

People wanna be one side, so ima stick to my belief, Dominican Society as whole was and is against that. But im not going meet someone half way if they don't. I don't put things, in here go one side (yes on immigration to balance a little) and not im saying don't put that...im only asking use the words on the cited source. AvFnx 05:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

the fact show differently according to many documents and articles. it shows that dominican society is very anti-haitian and has racial issues. i have many and i mean many documents that will show that is the case. i.e. "The Organization of American States noted that "racist attitude condemn Haitians and thier children as blacker than dominicans uncivilized and inferior " "  64.131.205.111 05:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

yea.. so they are more dark colored? http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/22/229910.jpg  how much lighter is he?! or him? http://whitesoxpride.mlblogs.com/inside_the_white_sox/images/jose_4.jpg and they are dominicans! 64.131.205.111 06:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

the second one if im right is Jose of the White Sox and he Cuban...i get your point. But in general Dominicans from Cibao then to be light skin, and simply matter Dominicans then to be more mix, so they then to be lighter. But remember the rich class of Haiti are very very white. In case there people that didn't know AvFnx 06:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * it is juan uribe and he is dominican 64.131.205.111 07:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * jose_4.jpg...that what the link says, other thing that guy in the picture is pitching AvFnx 13:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

there are very light haitians and very dark haitians. there are very light dominican's and very dark dominicans. there are also very light cubans and very dark cubans. lastly there are very light african americans and very dark african americans. i have 1 questions.. why aren't haitians considered to be latino? since france is a latin nation! secondly why is it that why is it that dominicans are in such denial of their black heritage... many african americans look far whiter than dominicans! and many dominicans are a lot darker than african americans! 64.131.205.111 06:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Dominicans didn't come up w/ that word, but Latino for some reason then to be only mean spanish speaking country from Latin America...but i also wonder that too. I'm not speaking for all Dominican but my self, i don't deny my African roots. I'm light skin and very proud of my Taino, African roots and of Spanish. And if Dominican really does deny he's roots, he's saying he not Dominican...where Merengue really base (forget the debate of it Haitian) it really African music. people then to be ignorant that true, but the same goes for African-American, even Haitians, Puerto Ricans. Never really understand it...why you think evolution is a big problem, could be cause it says all Human came from Africa. AvFnx 06:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

so why do so many hispanics consider brazilians to be latino? 64.131.205.111 06:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah thats a big question!!!!well i never heard brazil being called latino either..but probably they arent latinos!latino is a supposed word to named all decendants from the latin Language as in french,protuguese, and spanish, & Italian but i guess that brazil and Haiti are a exception..i dont know the answer either!I find that unclear and i guess that spanish Speaking countries had taken over the Word "Latino"...But i agree in that Haiti should be called a latino country69.119.127.181 06:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

in brazil they speak portuguese.. in haiti they speak french.. you also forgot.. romanian.. which is a latin language. 64.131.205.111 06:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I get you back on that one, have look it up, but that a very good question that i offend wonder too. Don't about the Brazilian but i also like to add that this world is all about money, the more the country has, the more respect it citizen will get. Now we on the subject a lot those human rights vilation happing in DR, happen to Dominicans too(light or dark). Like i said before don't like Trujillo cause that what he left behind, the people that killed him got killed, and the army people that stood up in 1965 got killed too. So Balaguer and Trujillo people still run the show, not direct but the culture they left behind. AvFnx 07:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah...theirs a lot of history in Our country that i considered sad and that i dont even know why they do happen!But i guess with cant avoid that!!!Trujillo was a damn bad Man..i dont even know why his mom had him!!but anyways his dead and now most of us pay for killings! Yeah Avfnx...is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!MONEY MAY NOT BE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN LIFE, BUT I DO CONSIDER IT THE MOST IMPORTANT!without money theirs nothing nowadays!Sad But True(as One song says)69.119.127.181 07:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well Avfnx..i'm officially saying bye(because i guees am permanently getting banned for not abbyding blocking rules)!And i'll leave you here alone!I guess you can handle things over here!make it a great article atleast by next year!I think am getting banned forever because of some people around here calling me disruptive and personally attacking and sock puppet!So i'll see ya later when everything cools down!(if it ever does)69.119.127.181 07:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

69.119.127.181 07:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Dominican-Haitian War
I don't believe anyone should be censor especially when make sense. let the people say there two cents. AvFnx 06:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

its not censor. he's a banned user.. that is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:EdwinCasadoBaez and you know he was banned.. he cannot contribute! 64.131.205.111 06:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone should be censor especially when make sense. let the people say there two cents. AvFnx 06:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

wao...he is censuring me!!!jejeje...i guess he doesnt want Edwin to speak at all!i didnt mean to make your Efforts useless!I am just stating my views and i will keep stating them!I'm not personally attacking...i'm just simply discussing topics in a clean format way but you insist that i am attacking...I just cant stay off wikipedia!!i Love it too and enjoy to much..am sorry if am "Personally Attacking"69.119.127.181 06:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually I didn't it was him...all i say you erase after he wrote something but while he was writing before you were ok with it. that all i saw. Ok now back to square one can we please agree in a way write the sentences, and expand it. Let get over this child play. AvFnx 06:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well it looks like he's about to get permanently banned. 64.131.205.111 06:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Antihaitianismo?

 * This discrepency may exist also because of Antihaitianismo or racial bias against those of African decent.

Doesn't seem to be a discrepancy to me. 11% blacks plus 73% of mixed race is still over 80% of the population who likely have African descent. Seems a bit PoV to say that the CIA factbook figures are off because of racial bias.--Rosicrucian 16:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * not really POV. 73% mixed race doesnt even have to be any kind of black in it at all. it can simply be white and indian, white and arab, white and asian, asian and arab, etc.  there exists many different names to avoid being called black  morena (brown), india (indian), blanca oscura (dark white), trigueño (wheat colored) - to avoid referring to themselves as black.  "There was a sense of 'deculturación' among the African slaves of Hispaniola. [There was] an attempt to erase any vestiges of African culture from the Dominican Republic. We were, in some way, brainwashed and we've become westernized." .  This is all a result of Antihaitianismo 64.131.205.111 16:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In this context it is, at least if you're claiming that the CIA factbook figures are somehow inaccurate due to racial bias. That's unsupported.--Rosicrucian 17:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I've rearranged the statement a bit. I think I forgot to link it to Antihaitianismo, so if you want to add that back in feel free. I elaborated on it a bit though and included the quote you listed to attribute this as an opinion rather than directly stating it as fact.--Rosicrucian 21:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The section claiming that Dominicans "consider themselves white" seemed a bit too inflammatory and likely would lead to another edit war. After a struggle with another user nearly blanking the section, I've left it at an earlier version that I hope is less controversial than the one you put in. The goal here is compromise.--Rosicrucian 23:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

i've reinserted it. the blanking user is blocked user platanogenius. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:69.119.56.116 64.131.205.111 00:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

This article....
What can I say, people here you can't work with them. I let you know right now go wild, do you it yours, im not going work on this no more. Let see all the propaganda you going put...I got a new tittle for this article Haiti Part II or Hispaniola (cause this article talk about both nation, when it should be DR only. Like in life, let the people that are full of shit talk, so the world can know how full of shit they are. This Dominican is out...Dominicano Pura Cepa PRAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! AvFnx 18:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

back with the uncivil talk and the personal attacks. please cease from it. this is your final warning. 64.131.205.111 19:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Avfnx, Tu eres un mama nema ponle la pura cepa a heso!!!!!!!!!!!1 67.87.197.9 19:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

That was my farewell speech, hey I wasn't talking about no one but if the shoes fits that on you24.190.180.244 20:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (AvFnx)

Wao....a New Article named Antihaitianismo....Great Article guys!!!it seems very neutral since the beggining(Sacarstic Mode)... i was reading the Article and i had to stop reading it for all the nonsense!!!Why ya dont make an article named AntiDominicanismo and write about the anti-dominicans

Hopefully not a lot of people read this nonsense...This is why less people be looking at wikipedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.127.181 (talk • contribs) sockpuppet of banned user EdwinCasadoBaez
 * The sources for the article are called haitiforever.com...the name of the site is not even neutral!!!great Citing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.127.181 (talk • contribs) sockpuppet of banned user EdwinCasadoBaez

Calling all Dominican
Don't edit this article, leave the way it is. If you fix, or make little more neutral only going improve the quality of the article; if you do that people are going start thinking is true what been said. So let it go, the quality going get so bad that no one going read this. It starting already.AvFnx 17:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * well i agree with wat u say...but i Agree more with fighting back..no matter what happens!!if is to make articles better and more desirable!People that read this article is going to think that blacks are not accepted in the Dominican Republic!and thats not right!Anti-Dominicanism people are making this article anti-haitian!
 * Am fighting back under all arms!No matter wat gets me blocked or Banned!But theirs always a way to do good even if everybody is against u!Theirs always Ip Address changes or Accounts change!so am going to deal with this sooner or later!Vandalism and not cited stuf needs to be taken out of here and one-sided headings too!69.119.127.181 17:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Vamos Dominicanos!

We have a significant amount of dominicans that already left the article as it seems! User:Dominican and user:Platanogenius] and [[User:memeco too...becuase they got tired(and were blocked) of this nonsense but am not! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.127.181 (talk • contribs) sockpuppet of banned user EdwinCasadoBaez

Another blocked user:
69.119.56.116 (blocked 2 days by King_of_Hearts (AO ACB)).) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=136712685&oldid=136711144 64.131.205.111 00:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

A vandal left this article
http://www.ecpat.net/eng/ecpat_inter/Publication/Other/English/Pdf_page/ecpat_sex_tourism_dom_rebublic.pdf It seems pretty interesting. I'm moving for an inclusion. Similiar to what Brazil has with social issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil#Social_issues  64.131.205.111 20:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Added. Look good?--Rosicrucian 23:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I dont think thats significant to put in any sub-heading..you could put that only in Crime section at most!!69.120.72.147 00:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

If you include it in the article...you should only put it in the crime Section as i said before!!69.120.72.147 00:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I did put it in the crime section, and did not give it a subheading.--Rosicrucian 00:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Music reference
True what you say User:Dominican...This IP user only writes about the same stuff and only uses facts from CCNY institute and doesnt use facts from government offices like is suppose to!I'm really bugged with this user and i really dont like his presence over here!I dont even think he has visited D.R or has lived there ever in his life to know things about D.R!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I have used facts from various websites, so lets not even go there. I have been to the dominican republic. Have you been to Santiago? Have you been to Puerto Plata? Tu quieres hablar espanol conmigo? Tu quieres leche en su cara? Diablo! By the way its the Dominican Institute at CCNY. 64.131.205.111 02:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User:64.131.205.111 don't take to that level, u know what u said if you don't you should what know before u write. Si quieres te hablos en espanol tambien. Let keep this civil, cause any other way we ain't going no where, any other way. User:EdwinCasadoBaez please dont respond to that statement. Avfnx 03:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * User 64.131.205.111, please refrain from using obscene expressions (even in Spanish). Stop doing that or you could be blocked.
 * If you want to show off your knowledge of Spanish (which is my first language, by the way), please use decent expressions. It also helps if you use grammatically correct sentences and use the adecuate punctuation marks. Dominican 05:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

My spanish is just as good as your english. My spanish also wasn't obscene, it's a specific type of street slang that as you should know is native to DR. Weeeeeeepaaaa!!! 64.131.205.111 16:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually if you going use Dominican slang use it right...mira te di lu, tamo cloro...oh what should I use your slang okay pai. Avfnx 22:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

mira maldito mono tu quieres leche en su cara o en su boca? Was that good enough for you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.205.111 (talk • contribs)

Not only you implying that I'm racist, which I'm not...but I know you implying that all Dominican are, which shows how narrow minded you are. You talk about Dominican been racist, but have you have you thought you might be racist against Dominicans. What make you think that you better then Dominican, what cause you American or whatever you are, cause I can care less. If you read really read and understand Dominican history you see that they are people that very proud with a very rich history of standing up on they own and not letting them been told what to do, it started from the Tainos, to every stage of history there was always a hero that stood up for DR. That what I'm proud of, my culture; how a small country has two music genre that very popular and was started there. Who doesn't know about bachata or merengue...and a new movement that going on Rap Local. Yea our artist don't have rich cd contract but that cause they do they own record label, and do there own thing...like the Taino spirit Dominican do there own thing. For the record Dominican only got 30 years coming to the USA, and been doing thing that other immigrants haven't done. Doing things while still supporting DR. you have shown that you only one side mind. I like history all history and you see thing how country struggle to be a free country. All country in the world should be proud and i don't care what you say I'm proud of my history, im proud be Dominican. dejame dalte lu de nuevo, pork parace k te k daste en lo oscuro. -- en tu cara? tamo cloro or is to much for you. Avfnx 01:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Avfnx no eso fue porque tu tio te lo dijo oh cuando tu eras mas joven i despues que tu abuelo te toco el pene 64.131.205.111 03:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Tainos died within 25 years of the arrival of spaniards. Bachata may have started in DR, but Merengue was started in Haiti and was made popular in DR by Trujillo (who has a haitian grandmother). That is a fact. Also Dominincans have been in the United States since at least 1960.. so that is 46 years, not 30 years. Rap local? ok another music genre that is based from american blacks. What have dominicans been doing that is different from other immigrant groups in the USA? Everyone has a great culture and something to be proud of. That doesnt mean you should put down other groups. su abuela traja leche de mi perro. 64.131.205.111 02:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Wao!!HE KNOWS HOW TO TALK SPANISH GREAAAAAAAAAT!!!BIG DEALL!!!(I Can cuse too..except that i didnt come here to curse)!By the way i been to Santiago,Puerto Plata,Sousa,Samana,Punta Cana,Bonao,La Vega,Pedernales,Costanza,Monte Cristi,El Seibo, Yamasa,Etc...i been to most of DR and know a lot about it so i dont think you have to test me!!you should test yourself to see if you really have enough knowledge about DR!This Annonymous User is so stuped....I swear he shoudl get banned!he is the only person over here in wikipedia that get me mad out of all of them and am sorry for the word but he just get me pissed..I hate this stupid people that think they actually know the good history of DR but then they actully vandalize it..i been blamed for vandalism over three times without actually doing it...that is wrong and shouldnt be done..SIMPLE!EdwinCasadoBaez 01:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If you know so much why are you in denial about the facts that were given about DR? It's ok to be proud, but its better to be factual and realistic. Again please observe the Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. 64.131.205.111 02:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Where did i put down any other culture, DR was not the first and wouldn't be the last to stand up for it right...and what wrong taking Urban Music and doing in Spanish...African American and Dominican have the same blood in them, matter fact the whole does for that matter we all came from Africa, evolution ever heard of it. Merengue was started in DR, Trujillo only made popular among the elites but the other classes was already listen to it Avfnx 03:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Prove it! what links do you have? There is nothing wrong with taking music and doing it in spanish, but when you say something like "how a small country has two music genre that very popular and was started there." it's not true to say it started there. Rap local (spanish rap) was taking african american music and saying it in spanish. Merengue was taken from haiti's meringue and sung in spanish. So if african american and dominican have the same blood, how are they not black? hmm........ 64.131.205.111 03:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

See the thing is we don't use that, Dominican actually don't call them self white either. That a USA doing things you black or white. For Dominican there no race your Dominican that it. you don't understand our point of view, we don't understand yours. And Reggeaton was taken from Panama, that is true. prove to me merengue not Dominican...and don't get those google resources get it from reliable source, cause i could make page and say what i want. I don't need prove nothing the world knows that merengue is Dominican. Avfnx 03:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you prove that Merengue isn't based off of Meringue from Haiti? You can't because it came from Haiti! 64.131.205.111 07:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you prove it came from Haiti cause by your theory Dominican started listen to Merengue in Trujillo time, the elites did cause Trujillo clean up the lyrics. But the lower class was been listen to Merengue. Where the prove that came from Haiti, let see it 24.190.180.244 16:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Merengue or Meringue started in Haiti http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/merengue/sdhmerengue.htm 64.131.205.111 21:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Another one "If merengue came from Haiti, which was the dominant country on Hispaniola at the time of the dance's origin, we can credit the word to Haitian Creole French, which is an official language of the country, along with French. There are about seven million inhabitants of Haiti, and while perhaps 5 percent of them speak French, they all speak the French-based, African-influenced Creole. The word merengue comes from the familiar French confectionery word and suggests the lightness and quickness of the dance. No other words of Haitian Creole French have stepped into English. " [] " Like merengue in the Dominican Republic, mereng (in Haitiean Creole, méringue in French) is a national symbol in Haiti. according to Jean Fouchard, mereng evolved from the fusion of slave musics such as the chica and calenda with ballroom forms related to the French contredanse Mereng's name, he says, derives from the mouringue music of the Bara, a Bantu people of Madagascar. That few Malagasies came to the Americas renders this etymology dubiou, but it is significant because it forgrounds what Fouchard, and most Haitians, consider the essentially African-derived nature of their music and national identity. Dominican merengue, Jean Fouchard suggests, developed directly from Haitian mereng." "Dominicans are often disinclined to admit African and Haitian influences on their culture. As ethnomusicologist Martha Davis points out, many Dominican scholars "have, at the least, ignored African influence in Santo Domingo. At the worst, they have bent over backwards to convince themselves and their readers of the one hundred percent Hispanic content of their culture. " http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_merengue.html "One version of the history of merengue in the Dominican Republic is that merengue may be connected with the Haitian dance called “meringue” or “mereng”. The mereng of Haiti (meringue if spoken in French) is one of the national icons of Haiti and is said to have originated by the slaves of Haiti in the early times. Merengue and mereng are very much alike. The only difference is that the merengue is dictated by the accordion while the mereng sound is based on guitar." . Best of luck in arguing this one. 64.131.205.111 21:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I give up arguing with on every little point you come up with...look the page you got ya info from, did you know it easy make a page in, and everything on the web not true. I here make DR article the best it can be, learn more about the history of DR... you wanna make propaganda, i guess i have work around you, by not paying mind to you. you win cause from now on you going argue among your self.EdwinCasadoBaez user made a point, this not going anywhere Avfnx 07:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Great source, but how can we read it? All we know is that it exists. 64.131.205.111 19:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Click on the links provided.Dominican 19:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The page you sent us to is not in english and the pdf file cannot be viewed. 64.131.205.111 20:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Learn Spanish. Download Acrobat Reader. Dominican 20:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

This is the englis version of wikipedia. That attitide is clearly ridiculous and unfair. I have adobe pdf and the file can't be viewed. If it can't be viewed than the source is heresay 64.131.205.111 20:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Lets not get this discussion into a fight. You are right at the fact that the main pdf file seems not to be available at this moment. But the other files are. They are in Spanish and at first glance they are interesting and used in English translations on the net. On the English Wikipedia Spanish sources of course may be used, but if available English sources are preferable. There is no such thing as heresy in editing Wikipedia. I think that Dominican can also provide sources in English for this topic. VirtualDelight 20:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Musical traces of merengue or as it is known in haiti, meringue, to haiti can be found here. 64.131.205.111 21:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I moved this discussion here, to keep "Topics" clean.
 * Annonymous, you keep adding to the actions that clearly show that you just want to boycott the article. I haven't written a single word from the reference given and you are already trying to discard it by calling it "heresay".
 * I'll try to get references in English, but recall that almost everything that is written in the DR will be in Spanish. If we are planning to create a good encyclopedic article about a Spanish speaking country, we need to know the language. It is like pretending to be the one of the main editors of Russia and not knowing Russian. We would be omitting probably the best references. In that case, the person should back down and let people who know more than him/her discuss about the topic.
 * I admit that English is not my first language, and in that case, I will let native English speakers to proof-read whatever I write. That's OK with me.
 * On the other hand, you were bluffing that you knew vernacular Domincan Spanish (cursing only, though), so I thought you would at least be proficient enough to understand the standard written language. Dominican 21:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Was what i said dominican spanish? dimelo loco!!!! Que lo que? For the english version of website please use english. 64.131.205.111 21:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

TO USER 64.131.205.111: The problem is that theirs not alot of references of DR in english. As you may know DR is not of country that has received a lot of importance from english speaking countries until recently, for that reason most of the historic articles that we may find are in spanish. Spanish is the official language of DR which makes it hard to find official documents in English. We should use spanish and/or English reference because it would be easier(of Course English reference would be more appreciated but Spanish references are ok too).The best refernce are in spanish language and we can't deny that. I believe too that sometimes people add stuff without reference and that sometimes they are correct. People have self knowledge and it shouldnt be ignored or deleted just because it doesnt show a reference. We should be neutral in all cases guys and please try to make efforts understand spanish. Spanish is not"Que Lo que..Tamo cloro...Dime cara de creta,etc" that is spanish slang and we should know that.EdwinCasadoBaez 22:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Who here speaks Egyptian? or speaks Mayan? No one here. But we still know a lot about them. You do not need to know a language to know about a culture. Do you know German? But i bet you know a a lot about hitler! 64.131.205.111 04:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Merengue or Meringue started in Haiti http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/merengue/sdhmerengue.htm 64.131.205.111 21:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Another one "If merengue came from Haiti, which was the dominant country on Hispaniola at the time of the dance's origin, we can credit the word to Haitian Creole French, which is an official language of the country, along with French. There are about seven million inhabitants of Haiti, and while perhaps 5 percent of them speak French, they all speak the French-based, African-influenced Creole. The word merengue comes from the familiar French confectionery word and suggests the lightness and quickness of the dance. No other words of Haitian Creole French have stepped into English. " [] " Like merengue in the Dominican Republic, mereng (in Haitiean Creole, méringue in French) is a national symbol in Haiti. according to Jean Fouchard, mereng evolved from the fusion of slave musics such as the chica and calenda with ballroom forms related to the French contredanse Mereng's name, he says, derives from the mouringue music of the Bara, a Bantu people of Madagascar. That few Malagasies came to the Americas renders this etymology dubiou, but it is significant because it forgrounds what Fouchard, and most Haitians, consider the essentially African-derived nature of their music and national identity. Dominican merengue, Jean Fouchard suggests, developed directly from Haitian mereng." "Dominicans are often disinclined to admit African and Haitian influences on their culture. As ethnomusicologist Martha Davis points out, many Dominican scholars "have, at the least, ignored African influence in Santo Domingo. At the worst, they have bent over backwards to convince themselves and their readers of the one hundred percent Hispanic content of their culture. " http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_merengue.html "One version of the history of merengue in the Dominican Republic is that merengue may be connected with the Haitian dance called “meringue” or “mereng”. The mereng of Haiti (meringue if spoken in French) is one of the national icons of Haiti and is said to have originated by the slaves of Haiti in the early times. Merengue and mereng are very much alike. The only difference is that the merengue is dictated by the accordion while the mereng sound is based on guitar." . Best of luck in arguing this one. 64.131.205.111 21:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

No more IP Edits!
Great stuff!No more IP Edits over here!Only discussing in talk page is avalable69.119.127.181 07:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

PORTRAYING DOMINICANS AS CARICATURES.
Hey 64.131, let me ask you something. If DR is so anti-haitian and anti-black or " self-denial", how come the majority of the population voted for José Francisco Peña Gómez(who was of Haitian decent and blacker than petroleum), in 1994?? How come today the airport in Santo Domingo is named after him? you also have many parks and roads named after him. Many people still worship him like he is a god, even white-looking Dominicans that followed him. Nice job your doing cherrypicking information and just pointing out negative information. Also, the " racial issues" don't belong in this article, that should be an article just for itself. I don't see in the Haiti Article how Christophe killed all the whites that he invited to re-settle Haiti, and how many Mulattoes were massacred in Haiti, many had to flee to New Orleans. I know it was a matter of " Haitian national security" back then, due to the hostile circumstances that surrounded it. Simply, because that don't belong in the Haiti Article. And now, you locked the article, in order for you to smear DR. Also, when was the last time you picked up a Dominican history textbook that is used in schools(in Spanish language, ofcourse)? This is 2007, not 1957 you know. The bad part is that this is not helping the situation of Haitians in DR at all. The generalization, stereotype of Dominicans as " Black-denier caricatures" will just cause anger to Dominicans that have sympathy for Haitians. The image of Haiti too abroad, is not getting to get better by this smearing campaign. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.177.181.129 (talk • contribs).


 * That very true!!!I think theres no way to argue that against!69.118.48.94 05:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Racial identity issues
This a first, im Dominican born and I can't find anywhere in my documents where it says my race. What someone put was skin color, that where we use color like trigeno and so. This Anti-Dominican know so much that something i can't find where ceduala or passport says race. This article everyday turning more and more to pure garbage. Haitian made article talking about DR, I know there anti-Dominican propagana going only cause Haiti mess up there country and now what turn DR to a desert..like Haiti is (Al Gore documentary for those that wanna know where I got my info from) AvFnx 00:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * with a nation that has a large mixed population, sometimes race may be ambiguous. The Dominican population does have a history of racial issues especially in the light of Antihaitianismo.  The United Nations which supports human rights has had some issues with the lack of human rights that are given to some Haitians by the government of Dominican Republic.  I don't understand why you seem to have such issues with Haiti.  You don't see Puerto Rican's treating Dominican's or even talking about Dominincan's half as bad as you talk about Haitians.   You are on the same island with a porous border.  You are the same people, separated by government, and sometimes language.  The island was ruled 100% for a time by Spain, 100% for a time by France, 100% for a time by the Taino's, 100% of the time by Haiti.  It's like some of the issues you might see within African American culture.  The whole debate about color complex.   It was government propaganda.  It was a method of keeping the poor happy because you were considered to be at least better than the "haitians."  You are proud that you are "lighter or whiter" than the Haitians? Slavery was  You think 95% of haitians are african looking.  Guess again, http://www.haitixchange.com/article_0023.asp!  Haitian's are as light as they come and as dark as they come.  Same thing as in the Dominican Republic.  Jean-Claude Duvalier is as light as your current president fernandez.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4253674.stm . Raoul Cédras another leader in Haiti

would also be considered to be near white in Dominican culture http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/940000/images/_942489_raoul_cedras300elvisap.jpg. Haitian revolutionary and general André Rigaud was mulatto. The mulatto's were the one's who liberated Haiti  look up Alexandre Pétion. General Jean-Pierre Boyer the Haitian President who unified or invaded the colony of Santo Domingo was mulatto as well. . So it wasn't the "blacks haitians" who invaded Dominican Republic it was the mulatto haitians! Haiti is as mixed as the Dominican Republic. The difference is that Haiti recognizes it's culture. The Dominican Republic is well documented to be in denial of it. Ideology is what kept many down and continues to keep many people down. 64.131.205.111 08:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * First of this article not turning to Puerto Rico article, there not documentary that trying destroy Dominican Republic economy from PR. I don't deny my African roots. I'm more proud of my African roots then Spain roots. How can't you be proud of African roots when African control the world culture. Merengue base African music (controls Dominican Culture), Hip Pop was started by African decedents. I think your book smart but you buying in to much in to this propaganda. Listen to Rap Local (Mi Cultura) and you see Dominicans are proud there African roots. I got nothing against Haitian people but I'm not going have going let this Dominican defamation go on uncheck. Wouldn't you have a problem someone burning the flag of you country, especially when you Catholic and the flag has the bible, and the cross...and then saying i want your citizenship as they doing do that. Well for one thing Haiti not as mixed as DR, but I do agree with there the White elites like DR (that don't really care about the country), there mulatto, and pure African decedents. Haiti and DR do share lot things in common, but if they would stay one country DR would have been in the same state that Haiti is in. I don't know where Haiti recognizes there culture when they praise there French culture more, and claim that better then Spanish of DR, while been in DR...you book smart, i see things for my own eyes. Back to the real argument DR doesn't classified it people by race so there goes you argument, and Dominican don't deny there African roots, if it did then Merengue wouldn't exist. Dominicans Don't hate Haitians Dominicans have been rule by Haitian president or voted for one; from past President to Pena Gomez I don't see where the HATE ideology at yes you can bring 100 article but the fact of the matter go to DR and really see what goes on,  go to Dominican Colleges and you see there lots of Haitian in DR, rich one too... if it was like you said they would go else where. AvFnx 10:29, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

more on the ID cards You are right, AVnx, those ID cards say nothing about race, it just say color. '''And since when color means race?? ''' So if some Dravidian person has " color=negro" on his card, that means that he is African?? But you know where that bs comes from? from some "scholars "like Ernesto Sagas from CUNY, who does seem to have a hidden agenda. He stated that " color=indio" on cards, meant that " race is Indian". He had a rain of critics for publishing that garbage on his book, I'll find it later and publish it here. Torres-Saillant on the other hand, is more careful in not making such stupid assertions that later can be exploited by people like...you know who. and that is the problem that we have now. " indio" can mean one of two things, a person can mean it as " color of an indian,or cinammon color" or " indian decent". More likely, it is the first, since in DR school textbooks say that indians(tainos)got extinct. " Indio" is just description of the varios shades of Mulatto, but how that exactly negates African ancestry if you don't even ask that person that question?? and that is called prejudice. Making an entire judgement just because somebody said " indio"?? Ernesto Sagas don't explain none of this, so his book is kind of caca, because it doesn't elaborate more on that.
 * Keep doing the good work in fighting this antidominicanismo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.181.129 (talk • contribs)

Puerto Ricans could never talk bad about Dominicans because they used to migrate our island in large quantities in the late 1800's and early 1900's...Infact the only reason we leave to puerto rico is to use it as a bridge to get to the United States..Only like 25% of the ones that reach Puerto Rico actually stay there!69.118.48.94 21:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

That is simply racist and without any kind of factual basis. That kind of talk does not belong in this article. BoriquaStar 03:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

A Case of Sock Puppet i want to ask to other Wikipedians
Sad sad stuff...For some reason i belive that Ip 64.131.... and User:YoSoyGuapo are the same persons!I'm going to talk to some Admisnistrators to figure out because is weird that they both got the sam tecniques of writing and the same accusations to Dominicans Against Haitians...Guys could ya help me out doing this please????if anybody wants to see!is bugs me that they have the same writing styles!69.118.48.94 05:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.48.94 (talk • contribs)

For some reason i belive that Ip 64.131.... and User:YoSoyGuapo are the same persons!I'm going to talk to some Admisnistrators to figure out because is weird that they both got the same tecniques of writing and the same accusations to Dominicans Against Haitians(while Positively having the same agenda, If not check at the history of the Dominican Article and the recent changes of YoSoyGuapo)...Guys could ya help me out doing this please????if anybody wants to see!is bugs me that they have the same writing styles!69.118.48.94 05:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Ya should take into consideration that Ip:64.131... was the one that posted the warnings in user talkpages when they were "personally Attacking" and that User:YoSoyGuapo was the actual one that brought the case in and blocked the users most of the time!Check this in pages of User:memeco User:Jonathanmbaez,user:Platanogenius,user:EdwinCasadoBaez (and the other suspected sock puppets of EdwinCasadoBaez]]69.118.48.94 05:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have any evidence of this? Furthermore, do you have any evidence of him being disruptive?  --Haemo 05:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Simply look the Dominican Article been edit a lot by User:YoSoyGuapo ever since IP block, while used be lot edit by IP 64.131. that my only my thought. calling people monkey in spanish, and other things which i choose not to translated cause there might kids reading this, I don't understand how s/he get aways w/ personal attacks. AvFnx 10:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

now one used the word monkey. the word mono means cute. http://ets.freetranslation.com/ 64.131.205.111 11:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

And the other things, people pay w/ what... and so on and sure you meant as cute...this means cute


 * Avfnx no eso fue porque tu tio te lo dijo oh cuando tu eras mas joven i despues que tu abuelo te toco el pene 64.131.205.111 03:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

And funny that you thought didn't i see it. 

AvFnx 11:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Found other user name of ip DMVGuy Ip 64.131 AvFnx 12:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Please anybody that is a good administrator here!!can ya do a user check or something!!!because User:YosoyGuapo and User:64.131.205.111 have the similar(If not exact) type of editing in this article....Please check their Ip Addresses and check if they similar because after they semi-protected the article User:YoSoyGuapo started editing much more than before(probably replacing the Annonymous user IP:64.131.205.111)65.220.104.16 20:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Avfnx no eso fue porque tu tio te lo dijo oh cuando tu eras mas joven i despues que tu abuelo te toco el pene" in a full literal translation to english this means "avfnx, no that was because your uncle told you that when you were younger...after you grandpa touch your u penis!!!" this is the most literal translation i can write and for me is discrasefull and offensive in anyway!!!he talk about someones family that he doesnt even know and then talks about touching someones penis!!!!Embarrasing and thi should be an immediate block!65.220.104.16 20:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Back from the block,if you want checkuser here the page AvFnx 16:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Crime Section,Again
Again i ask for User:YoSoyGuapo to revert his decision of adding Dominicans Don't Play AND Bloods into the Crime Article! The crime that involves Dominicans Don't Play happen outside the country and mostly in the United States and Spain!This means that this crimes dont affect in anyway the safety of any Tourist in the country or of it's citizens because of the fact that this crimes are comitted outside the country!This gangs can contain many nationalities! Just because the Name is Dominicans Dont Play doesnt mean is inter connected to the Country! You should have more concensus when adding Info into subheadings! SAD!
 * 69.118.48.94 05:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

should it be placed in the Emigration section? would you prefer that? 64.131.205.111 07:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

hey Haemo, this 64.131.205.111 has commited several violations here, but he is an administrator, and has gotten away with it. Here is an example: #REDIRECT mira maldito mono tu quieres leche en su cara o en su boca? Was that good enough for you? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.131.205.111 (talk • contribs)., he called another user " f* monkey" in Spanish. He has abused his authority as an administrator to turn this Wikipedia article, into a propaganda. He has deleted the sources of the " Dominican-Haitian Wars" section, because he doesn't like the historical fact that smaller Dominican troops defeated the larger Haitian Army. in order to find a " loophole" like " citation needed" in order to erase that piece from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.181.129 (talk • contribs)

now one used the word monkey. the word means cute. 64.131.205.111 11:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

64.131.205.111 is not an administrator. It is impossible to be an anonymous IP with admin powers.--Rosicrucian 18:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe he is not an administrator himself but he got people Like YoSoyguapo who act identically ike him and that could be his username!Probably YoSoyguapo is a sock puppet of Ip 64.131.205!

By the way!!!Maldito Mono=Fucking Monkey and thats what you said some days ago in this article!Dont lie65.220.104.16 20:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Why are u defending User:YoSoyGuapo edits??Why are u agreeing with his edits?as u did over here

"should it be placed in the Emigration section? would you prefer that? 64.131.205.111 07:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)"

This is kinda Weird!!first of all he does the same type of edits as User:YoSoyGuapo and then he defends him ultimately!!Again i ask...can anybody do a UserCheck!65.220.104.16 20:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

well he is not defending him but he still agreeing with his edits!he agrees that Crime that Dominicans Comit in NYC and United states or Spain should be included in the Dominican Article!I dont think that should be added...it should be added in the United States Crime Section but not in the Dominican Crime Section! but He should Be Banned!!!Banned From this Site!!!HelP HELP!69.118.48.94 21:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I have moved it to the Emigration section, as it is discussing Dominicans abroad rather than domestic crime.--Rosicrucian 23:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. 64.131.205.111 01:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Parsley Massacre
how is it was Massacre and people want to call it genocide, yea this article is neutral alright AvFnx 12:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

No...User:Avfnx....probably it can be called an attempt of Genocidie!!!is not neccessarily wrong!65.220.104.16 20:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

That using opinion on this, which for my understanding you can be doing that AvFnx 16:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah thats true.....is not an opinion based!is suppose to be factual!69.120.72.147 17:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Beside your Anti-Dominican page, where have you read genocide...I want read it, and please understand only cause you read something in the Internet don't make it true. AvFnx 03:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I wanna know
and from which the name Haiti is derived

what that got do with DR, that sound like a Haiti fact, shouldn't that be in Haiti page.

News of the atrocity filtered out of the country slowly; when it reached the previously supportive administration of President Franklin D. Roosevelt in the United States, Secretary of State Cordell Hull demanded internationally mediated negotiations for a settlement and indemnity. Trujillo finally agreed. The negotiations, however, fixed a ludicrously low indemnity of US$750,000, which was later reduced to US$525,000 by agreement between the two governments. Although the affair damaged Trujillo's international image, it did not result in any direct efforts by the United States or by other countries to force him from power. 

In stark contradiction to his virulent anti-Haitian rhetoric, the Trujillo administration maintained cordial relations with most Haitian governments. The 1937 "incident" was settled through diplomatic channels and the Dominican Republic agreed to pay an indemnity of $750,000.

Where does it say demand or force, my English most be really bad. I can't find it can you? AvFnx 12:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Dominican-Haitian Wars
http://www.canalsocial.net/GER/ficha_GER.asp?id=7924&cat=historia

That page was cited, proof what was written, and remove is there a reason for that. I know that is in Spanish but can't we have this till at least get replace, I think having this is better not having nothing. AvFnx 02:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Found better stuff http://www.websterfl.edu/~corbetre/haiti//misctopic/dominican/conception.htm 64.131.205.111 03:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't really talk about the war, the war that asking for cited page. AvFnx 04:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Dominican-Haitian Wars Part II
where did it go, how can someone remove with out taking in the talk page... AvFnx 04:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It was barely cited material for one thing. The other thing is that the citations weren't in english. The 3rd thing is that there is little evidence of another war outside of the war of independence. 64.131.205.111 04:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Only cause not one of your page, don't mean didn't happen. It a well know fact Haiti invaded Dominican Republic over and over again...and as you can see a smaller army won. AvFnx 05:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * umm.. Dr's army was bigger.. your information is faulty.

State Entry Exit Combat Forces Population Losses Haiti 1844  1844     3000      60000       1000 Rebels 1844 1844      10000    100000      1000 There is no other information about a War... and i've looked. 64.131.205.111 05:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Haiti was a army, Dominicans was a rebel force...and well Dominican had a smaller population (there something wrong w/ that information...DR surpasses Haiti in population in the mid 1970's), maybe had more people with pride then AvFnx 15:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Now Quisqueya is remove, and not vandalism. AvFnx 05:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC) Quisquella wasn't cited. It's been going on for a while with Fact and no citation for it. Taino information for Taino page. 64.131.205.111 05:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Quisqueya not a Taino thing, the Dominican National Anthem has it on it...and Dominicans do call them self Quisqueyano AvFnx 15:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Good Website to look at. It has some information
http://workmall.com/wfb2001/dominican_republic/dominican_republic_history_haiti_and_santo_domingo.html 64.131.205.111 06:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Removing unsourced and irrelevant material
The article contains irrelevant and unsourced information that should be removed: "Other names for Hispaniola are Bohio  and Ayiti ("land of the high mountains" ; and from which the name Haiti is derived"
 * Shouldn’t this be in the article about Haiti or Hispaniola?

"which to some have become problematic due to the Dominican Government's treatment of Haitians. Currently there is a bill in the Puerto Rican Senate that wishes to serverly restrict the entrance of Dominicans into Puerto Rico until the situation for Haitians in the Dominican Republic improves greatly"
 * The Dominican Government's treatment of Haitians immigrants workers is well known, and well documented in the article. But the part about the Puerto Rican Senate is unsourced and unlikely,since the P.R. Senate can't restrict legal immigration, this is a matter of U.S. Federal Law.

The Part about the DDP gang is just ridiculous. First, it is not a Dominican based gang. Second, how is the "Emigration" section entirely devoted to criminality? also, according to the sources the DDP is a minor street gang in both the U.S. and Spain, and has followed the pattern of many ethnic street gangs in the U.S. It's nothing special, like the Mafia. - Rafelito 07:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you actually suggesting the Mafia is NN?--Rosicrucian 16:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No. I'm suggesting DDP is NN (at least in the context of this article)--Rafelito 20:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Dominicans Don't Play is a dominican based gang. Even the name suggest's so. They are also an international gang. BoriquaStar 23:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * DDP is not based in the DR:

"Dominicans Don't Play (DDP) is a New York based street gang comprised of Latino youths whose heritage is traced to the Dominican Republic. They are largely concentrated in the Washington Heights section of Manhattan parts of Queens, The Bronx and Brooklyn . More recently the gang has expanded to New Jersey  , Florida, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Atlanta and Ossining. Law enforcement identifies members through the wearing of black, blue, white and red beads "--Rafelito 01:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That is why it is in the Emmigration section. For Dominican's who have left the nation. BoriquaStar 02:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't see Mafia mentioned in the Italy article, or Mara Salvatrucha mentioned in El Salvador, or Latin Kings mentioned in Puerto Rico, etc.--Rafelito 02:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I vote to have the mention of of something in irrelevant material be remove. AvFnx 08:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Rafelito, If you look at the Sicily article you will see that there is a prominent mention of Mafia (even a whole section) dedicated to it, MS-13 is mentioned in the [Salvador] article.   So an international gang which was chased and arrested by the  FBI isn't important?   Emmigration section is people who have left the nation and DDP are dominicans who have left the nation and commit crimes. I find that very hard to believe it doesnt belong.. BoriquaStar 08:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Mafia originated and operated in Sicily that's why it is mentioned in Sicily not in Italy. The MS-13 reference in El Salvador is about people who have been deported and now live in El Salvador (they speak english which is relevant in the demographics section), it does not elaborate (correctly) on their criminal activities outside of the country. DDP chased and arrested by the FBI? The emigration section as it is constituted right now is about crimes commited outside the dominican jurisdiction by people of dominican ancestry, it should be about emigration patterns like everywhere else.--Rafelito 16:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Every article is different. If you like expand on the other emigration things that are going on.  BoriquaStar 03:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Every article is different?. The criteria and most wikipedia guidelines apply to all articles.--Rafelito 15:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

What about Latin Kings, or the Netas why they not mention, I have looked many country article and can't see the same thing been push...If you wanna make other article talking about DDP (which there is) I don't see the point of having it in the Dominican Article AvFnx 08:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I think what most people want is for this to get remove only seem like only one person really cares about that. AvFnx 03:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Rosicrucian 16:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC) see's it's relavence as well. BoriquaStar 04:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

"The gang with the most members is the Dominicans Don't Play, the rivals of the Latin Kings and the Ñetas, from which they broke away. The group originated in Santo Domingo and popped up among Dominicans in Spain in December 2004 in imitation of the gang in their homeland. " BoriquaStar 05:23, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all this is only one source (most sources state DDP originated in NY). Second, it is unreliable because it also states that DDP broke away from the Latin Kings and Netas.--Rafelito 15:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what so important about it, those gangs where made in NYC, by Dominican born in NYC...actually DDP is not even in DR, if it is it a very small one, and it fact they a small unknown gang, even in NYC. Why keeping this so important, as you can see your the only one saying not to take off. AvFnx 10:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

That one reference states that it is started in Santo Domingo. They are as notable as the mafia in Sicily. It's like saying MS-13 isn't notable. BoriquaStar 14:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, it's only one reference and it's flawed (most sources state DDP originated in NY). You will have to provide evidence that they are as notable as the mafia in Sicily. Nobody is disputing the notability of Dominicans Don't Play (it has its own article), what we are disputing is their relevance to this article--Rafelito 15:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the Sicily article you will see that there is a prominent mention of Mafia (even a whole section) dedicated to it, MS-13 is mentioned in the [Salvador] article. So an international gang which was chased and arrested by the FBI isn't important? Emmigration section is people who have left the nation and DDP are dominicans who have left the nation and commit crimes. The group originated in Santo Domingo and popped up among Dominicans in Spain in December 2004 in imitation of the gang in their homeland. "  . Why don't we all agree to file an RFC or maybe simply shorten the section.  BoriquaStar 16:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You keep repeating arguments that already have been refuted and don’t comment on other issues raised . We don’t file an RFC because is not necessary, we have to remove irrelevant and unsourced information.--Rafelito 18:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As before they aren't being addressed. The information is cited and concerns emigrant groups from DR  which makes it relevant.  I've made a compromise to shorten it or simply file an RFC.  Which I think is fair.  BoriquaStar 18:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, you keep repeating arguments that already have been refuted and ignore parts of the discussion. First, I have already explined why this is not a good source (you should take a look at the other sources too). Second, I find your rationale or criteria for relevance very odd, are we going to detail the behavior of every immigrant group of every country or from every country in the articles about their country of origin? The answer is no, that's not how wikipedia works, that's why there are specific articles (like Dominican-American or Dominicans Don't Play) that address specific issues. Again you should address others issues being raised in this discussion. We should read and discuss all the points that have been presented.--Rafelito 20:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

alright, lets try to reach Consensus on this issue. BoriquaStar 22:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I dont trust this User:BoriquaStar...He has been in wikipedia for the last 5-7 days and he has only made notable edits in the dominican Republic article or in the dominican republic talkpage(while calling himself BoricuaStar!!!Its very weird!!look at the Contributions he has . A notable amount of edits of IP:64.131... and User:YoSoyGuapo have decreased lately while now User:BoriquaStar jumps in after they leave this article...Is making me see this in a suspicious Sockpuppetry case!In his first week he acussed Avnfx of Vandalism which is not supposed to be done by a new user...He Then Asked for protection of the Dominican Republic Article the same way IP:64.131 did...EdwinCasadoBaez 22:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Ed, I didn't accuse Avfnx of anything that he didn't admit he did. . If you go on my talk page he says that he changed a conversation and says that it was an accident; he then apologizes for it. . You can view the flow here created spaces which I saw here     and then he said that i signed it. .  Familiarize yourself with Assume good faith because looking at your block log you have been blocked repeatedly. but no body is holding that against you. Page protection was asked by me as well as another user User:Evilclown93 after the last 3 dozen contributions. . My request was and if you look it was based on some guy who says the Dominican Republic was founded by some racist society ; I see a problem with that last one...do you? BoriquaStar 23:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah...i was blocked but no because i was vandalizing the page!!!i was actually defending the article and thats why no body says nothing about it!You could ask anybody over here!EdwinCasadoBaez 02:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Back to the point
Emigration


 * Main article: Dominican illegal immigration to Puerto Rico

How the emigration main article is that, if that was the case then the whole thing should go. I want know what the whole point put the things are that, and when they half true, only one side of the story been play out. DDP was started in NYC, there goes that source. Other thing DDP is a very very small gang, that don't play no role in Dominican life style...or way of life. My question is simple why is this been put...what is the usefulness of this information. AvFnx 07:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Racial identity issues II
Last time I tried bring this up went of subject. Dominican Republic don't categorizes people by race, what that article is talking is skin color. that need to get clean up, or erase, or any other suggestion. AvFnx 15:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why saying it's skin color rather than race is somehow less inflammatory, but if you say that it's more accurate I have no problems changing it. I've done what you've asked.--Rosicrucian 16:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Many Dominicans self-identify as being of mixed-race rather than "black" in contrast to African identity movements in other nations."

Calling our self mix is the right term, that way we don't deny any of race. I don't see how calling mix is denying any race. If was that one race is been push over other then there they be a deny of race, but instead all race that make up Dominican been push forward. This article seem to be pushing Dominican should call them self African and forget about there Hispanic and Taino Culture and blood...What wrong calling you self mix when you are. AvFnx 00:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Taino's were extermindated in hispanola. They only servived in Puerto Rico and Cuba. Hispanic is a mixture of black, white, indian. I think you mean, Spaniard, and Black when you talk about DR. BoriquaStar 08:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There evidence of Tainos getting mix with the population, do you watch the history channel there even said that as high of 80 percent of the Dominican population has Taino blood in them. Dominican History books says they got mix with the population. That a whole different issue, point is that Racial identity say that Dominican should call them self African descents and forget about the other mixtures. AvFnx 08:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Who against me erasing that part of the article? AvFnx 03:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There are numerous citations that say the Taino's in DR were killed off. They only really surivived in Puerto Rico and Cuba.  Which is why you see such a color difference between Dominican's and Puerto Rican's.  I for one am against it.  That portion is heavily cited and has various sources speaking about it.  BoriquaStar 03:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Most those cited page have wrong information, the Cedula doesn't have race on it. What really the point that article...only cause i say im a mulatto means im deying been Black. That Dominicans should only call them self black. And there many that say Taino in DR got mix. Any one else have a thought in this? AvFnx 03:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * would you rather it say racial/color identity issues on the article? Taino's were exterminated. Here is another source, "the Taino race was exterminated in some 50 years, limiting its impact on Dominican culture" .  " In the Puerto Rico census made at the end of the 18th century by order of Carlos III of Spain, proof was given that the Taino natives were not exterminated in the first half of the 15th century, since in 1799 there was a documented contingent of some 2,302 pure natives of Taino Indian blood living in the country and who had settled in the Central Cordillera (Puerto Rico's Central Mountain Range). "   .   So if you want to go and see Tainos  you go to Puerto Rico.  Domincan's are basically black with some whites.  BoriquaStar 04:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That your thought and i respect that, but as you can see in the talk page i found sources says other wise. My point is there really no need have that, a Dominican that mix (which the majority of the population is) call him self mix, s/he is denying been black. And as you can see your he only one has a problem with this, been taken out... really why, when some of the source not true, Dominican actually don't call them self by race, because we not classified by race...skin tone well that a description of someone. I don't see where the denying is at. AvFnx 10:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The United Nations says that it is racism. . Since a consensus can't be reached simply file for an RFC. BoriquaStar 14:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Why you care so much about this?AvFnx 17:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the majority want this part taken off, I don't want go in to editing war...if anyone against please give the reason why it should stay. AvFnx 06:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If you didn't want to go into an edit war, you shouldn't have deleted it singlehandedly. Where is the "majority" you're talking about here? You were still having significant debate about it when you blanked the section. I don't see where you've built consensus.--Rosicrucian 14:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If you want bring back, but the thing is that most of the "cited" source where things that wasn't true. Dominican really don't into this whole race thing and they call them self mulatto cause they mix... The user i was debating with was block, everyone else wanted it remove. But if you want debate I have no problem with that, it can still get bring back. AvFnx 15:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, reviewing the issue I was unaware that there had been actual sockpuppet bans involving those users. I had often wondered why that IP had flat-out told me he wasn't going to register a username, and it now appears it's because he was using the IP along with his registered name to create false consensus.


 * The section was pretty much me trying to soften up the claims of that user and what have turned out to be his socks. I wasn't straying too much from what he had because if I did he'd start reverting.


 * However it does seem there is at least some evidence for a genuine issue that could make for an informative section. If it's okay with you, I'd like a chance to go over the section and revise it a bit to be more even-handed, and if you guys still think it shouldn't be in the article we can finally kill it after that. I'll try to find some opposing sources to counter the claims in the section so it can show both sides.


 * Sound cool?--Rosicrucian 16:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No problem it all yours, after your done we will see. Hope keep working with you...See don't think only cause I don't agree with it that I will delete it, I want to debate and have a agreement. Go ahead. AvFnx 05:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Good job finish reading it, and it neutral. But can we come out with a better tittle, a neutral one. AvFnx 05:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've currently renamed it to just "Self-Identification," which is pretty much what it is.--Rosicrucian 14:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

see to one side it...let agree on having neutral sources AvFnx 17:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

This not a good source
 That trying playing as news...seem to one sided to be considered a good source AvFnx 22:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

What makes it not a good source? I fail to see what makes it bad or one sided. It's a site that seems to detail human right abuses. This here may be a good article to use from the same source. It speaks about how the Constitution works " Article 11 of the Dominican Republic's Constitution, which bestows citizenship on anyone born within the borders of the Dominican Republic, babies born to Dominico-Haitians and Haitian immigrants — many of whom had been living in the Dominican Republic for decades — are often said to be infants of those who are "in transit" and thus not eligible for citizenship, as also written in the Constitution. This widespread use of the "in transit" clause as justification for the denial of birth certificates has sparked outrage among non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and human rights groups, and has been cited in reports issued by organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. "  This would challenge the right of blood controversy that has seemed to been a cause of issues on this talk page. If anything can someone get an english translation of constitution of the Dominican Republic. BoriquaStar 01:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Why don't you read it in Spanish, anything that are translated then to loss it meaning. What make a good source is a source that comes from plave that can be trusted, other wise it only people thoughts. If you can use any "source" i the internet then how good of a source is that. The internet is full  of people thoughts and nothing wrong with that, but when people take that as facts that whole different issue AvFnx 08:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Removing irrelevant material
The article contains irrelevant and unsourced information that should be removed: "and from which the name Haiti is derived" Shouldn’t this be in the article about Haiti or Hispaniola? Like it stated before but was the was taken to other point, any objection of me deleting this AvFnx 00:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It's as relavent as Quisqilla. So if you don't want to use Quisquilla you don't have to use Bohio or Ayiti or how it's spelled. BoriquaStar 01:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Not the Ayiti im talking about that Haiti name came from. AvFnx 07:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Lets just leave that for the hispanola article. BoriquaStar 08:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

TRYING TO CENSOR HISTORY
Hey people, this 64.131 guy is keeping getting away with murder in this article. Not only here, but he goes to any other article about Dominicans and try to censor there too. Check the Máximo Gómez  article. From the WHOLE article, the part that says that " he combated Soulouque", was the only one that he placed a " citation needed". This is a technic that he has in order to censor anything about " Haiti" and " Haitians that he don't like ". ( eg:Haitian Army getting defeated by much smaller Dominican Forces). .  hmm, what a coincidence. He also said that" Gomez was born in Haiti,because what is now DR, was governed by Haiti back then, hahaha"He did the same thing with the Dominican-Haitian Wars section. It just bothers this Haitian that the Haiti's army's was defeated in three wars. There was a source in that, he deleted it, and got away with it, as usual. Language is always a " loophole" for this "you fill in the blank" character to censoring. Other administrators, please tell us, when this abuse of authority is going to stop? Now he is denying that there were any other invasions after the 1844. Not even in Haitixchange.com they say such stupidity, that is a reputable website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.181.129 (talk • contribs)

Hi Guys...Am very happy to be officially Back after being block for some weeks!I am ready to come back to work!!!Hi Avnfx and the other new guys here!!EdwinCasadoBaez 20:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey edwin,
 * Welcome care to help with the San Juan, Puerto Rico article as well? BoriquaStar 04:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Avfnx

 * I do not appreciate things being signed for me that I didn't place on a page. you created spaces which I saw here      and then you said that i signed it     .    User:Avfnx Please do not do this again. BoriquaStar 03:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't feel like im getting censor here or that the admis are been unfair...Like i said before it seem like you wrote it. Maybe if don't edit other people comment i wouldn't have thought that. for the 5th or whatever time sorry. You remind me of other user used to be around here....mmmmmmmmm AvFnx 03:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't edit anyone's comment. I put an —Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs) tag on it. What are you talking about censor or admin unfair? No admin has commented on this. I'm letting people know your behavior is not to be supported for signing for someone else when they didn't write something. BoriquaStar 04:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * He is surely a sockpuppet!!Mr BoriquaStar must be a sock puppet!!!Is not long until he be Blocked again!Finally the Dominican Republic Article is coming to Shape!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I won't even begin to mention your behavior Just got off of block  and violates Assume good faith, as well as Civility. Has been noted to not be able to control his temper by an admin. His previous block was lengthened because of ban-evasions BoriquaStar 01:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

well i didn't mean not to be a good faith!But is that you have to change the ways you edit and accuse people here. You too were accused of not assuming Good Faith either. The fact is that we been plagued for a lot of Sock puppetry lately and the best way to end this is by requesting Check user to almost every body that looks suspicious. Is not that i don't want to Assume good faith is just that lately we been seeing users as suspiciousEdwinCasadoBaez 02:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[User:EdwinCasadoBaez|EdwinCasadoBaez]]''' Don't argue and let it go, you got work to do and let not waste on this. This only going get you block for no reason ''' AvFnx 04:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

La Trinitaria and Verifiability
Just to put to rest the continued attempts to paint Juan Pablo Duarte as a racist and La Trinitaria as white nationalists/white seperatists, let me address the source that contains the "proof" of this:
 * "Fathers of Racism" Jose-Rivera Molina. Taino Indep. Press. New York. 2006

Let's look at this for a moment. Most editors aren't going to have access to this book. It's by an independent printing company, isn't available on Amazon, and seems to have had a fairly small print run. As a result, it doesn't pass Wikipedia's requirements for what is a verifiable source.

I think we can all agree that this source, or the claims which the editor in question is asserting it proves, have no place in Wikipedia. If we have articles claiming that the Dominican Republic was the true inspiration for Birth of a Nation, we're just veering into conspiracy theory and other dodgy things.--Rosicrucian 00:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Remove it. BoriquaStar 04:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Good Sources?
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Cocks-Fight-Dominicans-Hispaniola/dp/080903719X BoriquaStar 03:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Cuisine
I'm going to add a new Cuisine section to the article!!! who says Yes or No????? EdwinCasadoBaez 02:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

YES AvFnx 03:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

nope, that's a seperate article. I've looked up PR, Cuba, Italy, China, and Australia. None of them has a cuisine portion. BoriquaStar 04:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

What if i add it in the Culture Section?What You think BoriquaStar???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by EdwinCasadoBaez (talk • contribs)

Go for it! Also make another article. Mangu, Chime, and the other good stuff. BoriquaStar 05:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I wrote this a couple of weeks ago in this article check it out:
 * "I think we should include a section which has native food off DR and different types of meal we eat like Rice and beans,Platano(Mofongo,Mangu,Tostones,Platanitos),Cassabe which is native from tainos i believe, Pastelon de Papa or Platano, Chimichurri(Dominican Fast food;Hamburger styled), we can add Pasteles en Hoja. Dominicans love Yuca(in General), and other things like Batata. Thats things we should include. Even thougth is not Only Dominicans that eat this we should add it as the style of food we eat."
 * This is what i will add about the Dominican Article in a few days!I would thank if anybody would care to help!EdwinCasadoBaez 18:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Here a thought....
Let make a project like this so we can write down the do list, have voting and assign task. what one one thinks AvFnx 09:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice idea...Actually their is already a project for the Dominican Republic.!But is completely Dead right now!Check it out. I think everybody should subscribe to the article and add themselves to the project to work in it a bit!i did some edits on it a few weeks ago but no body was interested!EdwinCasadoBaez 18:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Well lets Make It official!!!!:)

WikiProject Dominican Republic
We Invite everyone to join the Dominican Republic Wikiproject after months of being inactive. This will be the main portal for Dominican Republic Related articles!Please add your Username in the Participants sub-section of the article!EdwinCasadoBaez 18:51, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

There not many of us that are actively trying make this a better article. I say let let build a little rules...like votes when we can't agree. I know wiki got rules set up, but built our rules that we all sign and obey them. We all have the same goals make this the best article the way we can. It only a thought. AvFnx

New Ideas and Thougths

 * 1) Please Present them in a Delicate Manner and Do Not discuss(argue against) ideas Below this Line
 * 2) Remember our goal is to Make Dominican Republic an A Class Article so do not argue and be Constructive
 * 3) Please Write any idea for helping the Quality of the Dominican Article. It Can Be New Sections.Expanding a Section.Deleting A Section but do not go against any ideas written Here
 * 4) Please sign Comments and thougths with a four tildes and to put multiple : in front of comments so it can show differences between comment

Started By User:EdwinCasadoBaez

TOPICS

 * Religion:


 * Economy:


 * Crime:


 * Crime section should not be deleted (it exists in other articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dominican_Republic#Crime_Section) but the crime page may be expanded. It is a relavent part of DR.


 * I removed from the Crime Section a Sentence involving DDP and Trinitarios two gangs based in New York. Even thougth they are true gangs because i seem them fight, they still not significant in the fact that they are not based in the Dominican Republic and for that reason it shouldnt be included in the Dominican Article. Some of the Members of those two NY based gangs are not Even Dominican born or Dominican Descent at all. Even thought the names are to be involved with DR it should not be included at all in this article.What should be included in the Crime in the Dominican Republic article is:


 * 1) Crime High Levels after the 2003 collapse of the Dominican Economy(from sources)
 * 2) Drug Traficking from Colombia to the United States
 * 3) Laws Prohibiting Alcohol sales in DR after Midnight to avoid late-night Crimes(this law those exist)
 * 4) Assaults incrementing in some Touristic zones.


 * Please Comment in this ideas in the Botton Section!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to move for the inclusion of the DDP and Trinitarios in the article because they aren't just in new york. This gang is in 13 states in the united states and is the largest gang in spain. . They may have included other nationalities, but they were started by dominicans and are 90% dominican. The trinitarios were also named after the same trinitarios who founded DR. 64.131.205.111 04:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Government:


 * History:
 * I have brought this section into chronological order. I cant think of any objections to this. I also have removed claims clearly not covered by the source given. I would like to ask anyone reinstating them to do so only with supporting sources. I would like to state that I also support the sourced changes by Dominican. VirtualDelight 09:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Why not have a selection on the Trinitarios, and the expanding it to article. Avfnx 14:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Demographics:


 * Transportation:


 * I Believe the Dominican Republic article should have a small overview about the Santiago light rail and the Santo Domingo Metro in the Transportation Section!!We should add about the National designated Highway/Freeway lines Named DR-1,DR-2,DR-3,DR-4,and DR-5 that sorround the countryEdwinCasadoBaez 07:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Culture:

I think we should include a section which has native food off DR and different types of meal we eat like Rice and beans,Platano(Mofongo,Mangu,Tostones,Platanitos),Cassabe which is native from tainos i believe, Pastelon de Papa or Platano, Chimichurri(Dominican Fast food;Hamburger styled), we can add Pasteles en Hoja. Dominicans love Yuca(in General), and other things like Batata. Thats things we should include. Even thougth is not Only Dominicans that eat this we should add it as the style of food we eat. Who says yes or No for Addition of this to the article?Please AnswerEdwinCasadoBaez 04:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that's a good idea. A cuisine sub-section is fine by me. Eventually we can expand enough so as to create another article. We can extract ideas from the Cuban cuisine and Puerto Rican cuisine articles and references. Dominican 07:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Music:
 * I found a very good reference on the origins of Merengue. I can write a few paragraphs to add to the front page and maybe add a few interesting comments on the actual page. The book I'm talking about is Antes de que te vayas, written by Rafael Chaljub Mejía and it's available online at Grupo León Jimenes webpage here . Dominican 17:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The rest of the comments and critics are on the "Music reference" section.


 * Extras:

CRITICS ABOUT OPINIONS PLACE THAT WERE PLACED ABOVE
 * 1) Here You Can Place your Opinions About the Thoughts Of the Comments Above.
 * 2) Here You Can Show You Opinion of the comments.
 * 3) Please Be Moderate when showing your critics so we dont start Another Edit War#When Writing Your Critics Placed Four Tildes at the end of your message and a : in the beggining of your message so it can be organized and read proprerly

WRITE BELOW THIS SENTENCE!

Emigration vs. Crime sections
To clarify, some items are in the Emigration section rather than the Crime section because they are criminal activities abroad, while the Crime section is for domestic crime.--Rosicrucian 21:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I find it to be of quite undue wight that this section is nearly entirely about crime by one criminal and a minor street gang. For comparison we could take a look at the article Dominican American. I think this section could be a short overview from this article and the Dominican illegal immigration to Puerto Rico article. VirtualDelight 21:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Possibly. Moving them to the Emigration section was largely a compromise since there seemed to be a fair bit of support for inclusion, and they kept getting inserted into the Crime section. Of course, in light of recent sockpuppets, the appearance of consensus for inclusion might have been false.--Rosicrucian 21:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It may be even a systemic bias of Wikipedia to focus on such easily accessible and "in the news" information. But as this is the country overview article about the Dominican Republic I doubt that this particular criminal needs to be named in the article. But e.g. I do think that the fact about the Dominican Republic to serve as a transportation hub for cocaine smuggle into the United States is an information important enough to be in the article. VirtualDelight 22:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I have been discussing here.BoriquaStar (who has been supporting inclusion of this information and advocating consensus on this issue recently) has been suspended indefinitely for Sock puppetry (Requests for checkuser/Case/64.131.205.111) Apparently other sockpuppets of 64.131.205.111 were doing the same.--Rafelito 02:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * the emigration section is part of demographics, yet it discusses a crime related matter rather than going through or skimming emigration, whoever wrote this used unfairness in tone, and it is clearly baised. Adreamtonight 08:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Parsley Massacre
I have undone this change to the description of the Parsley massacre in the  subsection 1930 to 1980 by Caonabo because I think this changes were against the sources in the article and against consensus on this talk page. Also the change from "Parsley Massacre" to "Parsley Massacre by Haitiens" and from "massacre" to "welfare" in one case seem to me to be a POV edit not supported by any of the sources in the article. VirtualDelight 14:51, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The passage made next to no sense with those edits in place, so I support the revert.--Rosicrucian 14:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree and support the revert but that only shows that there extreme point, we need to better observe and be more active on this. The consensus of the past really don't count there were lot of sock poppet here. But the we got work with what we have and improve it. AvFnx 15:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)==Why Does the Article Focus so Much==

Have you read the Haiti article, you should see how much DR get mention. If you read DR one you think every step taken was as one. But yet when you go to the Haiti article there barley any mention on DR. I don't know why people going out there way give DR a bad image, but hey let the world know no one doing that to Haiti...the story of history, DR never start no war it only defense it self. That what make a Dominican. AvFnx 05:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

so when 30,000 people were massacred.. who were they defending themselves against? 64.131.205.111 05:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

When the agents were killed...if some one kill CIA agents the USA going stay with arm cross?. And remember this Trujillo one man, that killed Dominicans of all races class, so he not going respond like a normal person cause he wasn't. Don't make seem like it was the people choice. When have DR people gone to Haiti side the border and attacked, invaded tried kill there culture. It funny how the aggressor looking like the victim...The same in the 1960's invading DR embassy, trying start a war and say DR did. I got nothing against no people, but i will not let Dominican name drag in mutt. We fought for our right to be called Dominican, from many country that invaded, and we still standing Dominicano DE PUra CEPA Praaaaaa AvFnx 05:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * listen.. the soldiers had choices.. like when trujillo was assasinated.  people can say no.  trujillo didn't kill all these people by himself. he had dominicans help him.  you do know that the DR embassy was in Haiti.  you have nothing against another nation as long as they don't drag the DR name thru the mud.  The united states isn't perfect, but damn it they don't act like they did nothing wrong!  sucio mono...  :64.131.205.111 05:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * did you know a embassy represent that nation soil, invading the embassy is basically invading the country...that time we had troops on the border scream what honor to die por la patria, hey no need for name calling...uaaa, give my banana...Listen to your logic, DR is evil, they racist, they treat the Haitian so bad...here one question why do they come to DR, they country poor...boo ho, they did that to them self. It not Dominican problem, when Haiti was on top remember Haiti rob Dominican Republic and left the new nation broke. So why should we really care what happen in Haiti, they didn't care about DR, and they don't. They want the Dominican citizenship only cause the Haiti one is not even worth dirt. Haitian turn they side the island to a desert, is that Dominican fault too. AvFnx 17:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Look...their's a harsh problem in D.R against immigration!D.R is a poor country and we cant handle the amount of people we have right now!so that why dominicans dont like haitians migrating to Dominican territory!We cant substain our economy with even only the dominicans so imagine having an extra million people!The reason so many dominicans are leaving D.R is simply becuase is so hard to live in the Country...so now we even have a bigger problem because haitians are migrating inside in alarming levels!When the 30,000 people were killed...it was made by the decision of a Dictator like Trujillo...Most likely the Dominican Society was against those violent crimes against Haitians too!

They are many reasons why Haitians and Dominicans Encounter so many problems...and i think we should all understand them before being one sided in the article!69.119.127.181 05:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

edwincasadobaez.. aren't you on block? 64.131.205.111 05:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

People wanna be one side, so ima stick to my belief, Dominican Society as whole was and is against that. But im not going meet someone half way if they don't. I don't put things, in here go one side (yes on immigration to balance a little) and not im saying don't put that...im only asking use the words on the cited source. AvFnx 05:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

the fact show differently according to many documents and articles. it shows that dominican society is very anti-haitian and has racial issues. i have many and i mean many documents that will show that is the case. i.e. "The Organization of American States noted that "racist attitude condemn Haitians and thier children as blacker than dominicans uncivilized and inferior " "  64.131.205.111 05:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

yea.. so they are more dark colored? http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/22/229910.jpg  how much lighter is he?! or him? http://whitesoxpride.mlblogs.com/inside_the_white_sox/images/jose_4.jpg and they are dominicans! 64.131.205.111 06:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

the second one if im right is Jose of the White Sox and he Cuban...i get your point. But in general Dominicans from Cibao then to be light skin, and simply matter Dominicans then to be more mix, so they then to be lighter. But remember the rich class of Haiti are very very white. In case there people that didn't know AvFnx 06:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * it is juan uribe and he is dominican 64.131.205.111 07:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * jose_4.jpg...that what the link says, other thing that guy in the picture is pitching AvFnx 13:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

there are very light haitians and very dark haitians. there are very light dominican's and very dark dominicans. there are also very light cubans and very dark cubans. lastly there are very light african americans and very dark african americans. i have 1 questions.. why aren't haitians considered to be latino? since france is a latin nation! secondly why is it that why is it that dominicans are in such denial of their black heritage... many african americans look far whiter than dominicans! and many dominicans are a lot darker than african americans! 64.131.205.111 06:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Dominicans didn't come up w/ that word, but Latino for some reason then to be only mean spanish speaking country from Latin America...but i also wonder that too. I'm not speaking for all Dominican but my self, i don't deny my African roots. I'm light skin and very proud of my Taino, African roots and of Spanish. And if Dominican really does deny he's roots, he's saying he not Dominican...where Merengue really base (forget the debate of it Haitian) it really African music. people then to be ignorant that true, but the same goes for African-American, even Haitians, Puerto Ricans. Never really understand it...why you think evolution is a big problem, could be cause it says all Human came from Africa. AvFnx 06:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

so why do so many hispanics consider brazilians to be latino? 64.131.205.111 06:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah thats a big question!!!!well i never heard brazil being called latino either..but probably they arent latinos!latino is a supposed word to named all decendants from the latin Language as in french,protuguese, and spanish, & Italian but i guess that brazil and Haiti are a exception..i dont know the answer either!I find that unclear and i guess that spanish Speaking countries had taken over the Word "Latino"...But i agree in that Haiti should be called a latino country69.119.127.181 06:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

in brazil they speak portuguese.. in haiti they speak french.. you also forgot.. romanian.. which is a latin language. 64.131.205.111 06:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I get you back on that one, have look it up, but that a very good question that i offend wonder too. Don't about the Brazilian but i also like to add that this world is all about money, the more the country has, the more respect it citizen will get. Now we on the subject a lot those human rights vilation happing in DR, happen to Dominicans too(light or dark). Like i said before don't like Trujillo cause that what he left behind, the people that killed him got killed, and the army people that stood up in 1965 got killed too. So Balaguer and Trujillo people still run the show, not direct but the culture they left behind. AvFnx 07:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah...theirs a lot of history in Our country that i considered sad and that i dont even know why they do happen!But i guess with cant avoid that!!!Trujillo was a damn bad Man..i dont even know why his mom had him!!but anyways his dead and now most of us pay for killings! Yeah Avfnx...is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!MONEY MAY NOT BE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN LIFE, BUT I DO CONSIDER IT THE MOST IMPORTANT!without money theirs nothing nowadays!Sad But True(as One song says)69.119.127.181 07:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well Avfnx..i'm officially saying bye(because i guees am permanently getting banned for not abbyding blocking rules)!And i'll leave you here alone!I guess you can handle things over here!make it a great article atleast by next year!I think am getting banned forever because of some people around here calling me disruptive and personally attacking and sock puppet!So i'll see ya later when everything cools down!(if it ever does)69.119.127.181 07:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

69.119.127.181 07:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Dominican-Haitian War
I don't believe anyone should be censor especially when make sense. let the people say there two cents. AvFnx 06:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

its not censor. he's a banned user.. that is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:EdwinCasadoBaez and you know he was banned.. he cannot contribute! 64.131.205.111 06:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone should be censor especially when make sense. let the people say there two cents. AvFnx 06:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

wao...he is censuring me!!!jejeje...i guess he doesnt want Edwin to speak at all!i didnt mean to make your Efforts useless!I am just stating my views and i will keep stating them!I'm not personally attacking...i'm just simply discussing topics in a clean format way but you insist that i am attacking...I just cant stay off wikipedia!!i Love it too and enjoy to much..am sorry if am "Personally Attacking"69.119.127.181 06:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually I didn't it was him...all i say you erase after he wrote something but while he was writing before you were ok with it. that all i saw. Ok now back to square one can we please agree in a way write the sentences, and expand it. Let get over this child play. AvFnx 06:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well it looks like he's about to get permanently banned. 64.131.205.111 06:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Antihaitianismo?

 * This discrepency may exist also because of Antihaitianismo or racial bias against those of African decent.

Doesn't seem to be a discrepancy to me. 11% blacks plus 73% of mixed race is still over 80% of the population who likely have African descent. Seems a bit PoV to say that the CIA factbook figures are off because of racial bias.--Rosicrucian 16:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * not really POV. 73% mixed race doesnt even have to be any kind of black in it at all. it can simply be white and indian, white and arab, white and asian, asian and arab, etc.  there exists many different names to avoid being called black  morena (brown), india (indian), blanca oscura (dark white), trigueño (wheat colored) - to avoid referring to themselves as black.  "There was a sense of 'deculturación' among the African slaves of Hispaniola. [There was] an attempt to erase any vestiges of African culture from the Dominican Republic. We were, in some way, brainwashed and we've become westernized." .  This is all a result of Antihaitianismo 64.131.205.111 16:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In this context it is, at least if you're claiming that the CIA factbook figures are somehow inaccurate due to racial bias. That's unsupported.--Rosicrucian 17:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I've rearranged the statement a bit. I think I forgot to link it to Antihaitianismo, so if you want to add that back in feel free. I elaborated on it a bit though and included the quote you listed to attribute this as an opinion rather than directly stating it as fact.--Rosicrucian 21:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The section claiming that Dominicans "consider themselves white" seemed a bit too inflammatory and likely would lead to another edit war. After a struggle with another user nearly blanking the section, I've left it at an earlier version that I hope is less controversial than the one you put in. The goal here is compromise.--Rosicrucian 23:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

i've reinserted it. the blanking user is blocked user platanogenius. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:69.119.56.116 64.131.205.111 00:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

This article....
What can I say, people here you can't work with them. I let you know right now go wild, do you it yours, im not going work on this no more. Let see all the propaganda you going put...I got a new tittle for this article Haiti Part II or Hispaniola (cause this article talk about both nation, when it should be DR only. Like in life, let the people that are full of shit talk, so the world can know how full of shit they are. This Dominican is out...Dominicano Pura Cepa PRAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! AvFnx 18:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

back with the uncivil talk and the personal attacks. please cease from it. this is your final warning. 64.131.205.111 19:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Avfnx, Tu eres un mama nema ponle la pura cepa a heso!!!!!!!!!!!1 67.87.197.9 19:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

That was my farewell speech, hey I wasn't talking about no one but if the shoes fits that on you24.190.180.244 20:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (AvFnx)

Wao....a New Article named Antihaitianismo....Great Article guys!!!it seems very neutral since the beggining(Sacarstic Mode)... i was reading the Article and i had to stop reading it for all the nonsense!!!Why ya dont make an article named AntiDominicanismo and write about the anti-dominicans

Hopefully not a lot of people read this nonsense...This is why less people be looking at wikipedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.127.181 (talk • contribs) sockpuppet of banned user EdwinCasadoBaez
 * The sources for the article are called haitiforever.com...the name of the site is not even neutral!!!great Citing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.127.181 (talk • contribs) sockpuppet of banned user EdwinCasadoBaez

Calling all Dominican
Don't edit this article, leave the way it is. If you fix, or make little more neutral only going improve the quality of the article; if you do that people are going start thinking is true what been said. So let it go, the quality going get so bad that no one going read this. It starting already.AvFnx 17:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * well i agree with wat u say...but i Agree more with fighting back..no matter what happens!!if is to make articles better and more desirable!People that read this article is going to think that blacks are not accepted in the Dominican Republic!and thats not right!Anti-Dominicanism people are making this article anti-haitian!
 * Am fighting back under all arms!No matter wat gets me blocked or Banned!But theirs always a way to do good even if everybody is against u!Theirs always Ip Address changes or Accounts change!so am going to deal with this sooner or later!Vandalism and not cited stuf needs to be taken out of here and one-sided headings too!69.119.127.181 17:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Vamos Dominicanos!

We have a significant amount of dominicans that already left the article as it seems! User:Dominican and user:Platanogenius] and [[User:memeco too...becuase they got tired(and were blocked) of this nonsense but am not! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.127.181 (talk • contribs) sockpuppet of banned user EdwinCasadoBaez

Another blocked user:
69.119.56.116 (blocked 2 days by King_of_Hearts (AO ACB)).) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=136712685&oldid=136711144 64.131.205.111 00:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

A vandal left this article
http://www.ecpat.net/eng/ecpat_inter/Publication/Other/English/Pdf_page/ecpat_sex_tourism_dom_rebublic.pdf It seems pretty interesting. I'm moving for an inclusion. Similiar to what Brazil has with social issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil#Social_issues  64.131.205.111 20:19, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Added. Look good?--Rosicrucian 23:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I dont think thats significant to put in any sub-heading..you could put that only in Crime section at most!!69.120.72.147 00:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

If you include it in the article...you should only put it in the crime Section as i said before!!69.120.72.147 00:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I did put it in the crime section, and did not give it a subheading.--Rosicrucian 00:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Music reference
True what you say User:Dominican...This IP user only writes about the same stuff and only uses facts from CCNY institute and doesnt use facts from government offices like is suppose to!I'm really bugged with this user and i really dont like his presence over here!I dont even think he has visited D.R or has lived there ever in his life to know things about D.R!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I have used facts from various websites, so lets not even go there. I have been to the dominican republic. Have you been to Santiago? Have you been to Puerto Plata? Tu quieres hablar espanol conmigo? Tu quieres leche en su cara? Diablo! By the way its the Dominican Institute at CCNY. 64.131.205.111 02:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

User:64.131.205.111 don't take to that level, u know what u said if you don't you should what know before u write. Si quieres te hablos en espanol tambien. Let keep this civil, cause any other way we ain't going no where, any other way. User:EdwinCasadoBaez please dont respond to that statement. Avfnx 03:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * User 64.131.205.111, please refrain from using obscene expressions (even in Spanish). Stop doing that or you could be blocked.
 * If you want to show off your knowledge of Spanish (which is my first language, by the way), please use decent expressions. It also helps if you use grammatically correct sentences and use the adecuate punctuation marks. Dominican 05:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

My spanish is just as good as your english. My spanish also wasn't obscene, it's a specific type of street slang that as you should know is native to DR. Weeeeeeepaaaa!!! 64.131.205.111 16:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually if you going use Dominican slang use it right...mira te di lu, tamo cloro...oh what should I use your slang okay pai. Avfnx 22:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

mira maldito mono tu quieres leche en su cara o en su boca? Was that good enough for you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.131.205.111 (talk • contribs)

Not only you implying that I'm racist, which I'm not...but I know you implying that all Dominican are, which shows how narrow minded you are. You talk about Dominican been racist, but have you have you thought you might be racist against Dominicans. What make you think that you better then Dominican, what cause you American or whatever you are, cause I can care less. If you read really read and understand Dominican history you see that they are people that very proud with a very rich history of standing up on they own and not letting them been told what to do, it started from the Tainos, to every stage of history there was always a hero that stood up for DR. That what I'm proud of, my culture; how a small country has two music genre that very popular and was started there. Who doesn't know about bachata or merengue...and a new movement that going on Rap Local. Yea our artist don't have rich cd contract but that cause they do they own record label, and do there own thing...like the Taino spirit Dominican do there own thing. For the record Dominican only got 30 years coming to the USA, and been doing thing that other immigrants haven't done. Doing things while still supporting DR. you have shown that you only one side mind. I like history all history and you see thing how country struggle to be a free country. All country in the world should be proud and i don't care what you say I'm proud of my history, im proud be Dominican. dejame dalte lu de nuevo, pork parace k te k daste en lo oscuro. -- en tu cara? tamo cloro or is to much for you. Avfnx 01:29, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Avfnx no eso fue porque tu tio te lo dijo oh cuando tu eras mas joven i despues que tu abuelo te toco el pene 64.131.205.111 03:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Tainos died within 25 years of the arrival of spaniards. Bachata may have started in DR, but Merengue was started in Haiti and was made popular in DR by Trujillo (who has a haitian grandmother). That is a fact. Also Dominincans have been in the United States since at least 1960.. so that is 46 years, not 30 years. Rap local? ok another music genre that is based from american blacks. What have dominicans been doing that is different from other immigrant groups in the USA? Everyone has a great culture and something to be proud of. That doesnt mean you should put down other groups. su abuela traja leche de mi perro. 64.131.205.111 02:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Wao!!HE KNOWS HOW TO TALK SPANISH GREAAAAAAAAAT!!!BIG DEALL!!!(I Can cuse too..except that i didnt come here to curse)!By the way i been to Santiago,Puerto Plata,Sousa,Samana,Punta Cana,Bonao,La Vega,Pedernales,Costanza,Monte Cristi,El Seibo, Yamasa,Etc...i been to most of DR and know a lot about it so i dont think you have to test me!!you should test yourself to see if you really have enough knowledge about DR!This Annonymous User is so stuped....I swear he shoudl get banned!he is the only person over here in wikipedia that get me mad out of all of them and am sorry for the word but he just get me pissed..I hate this stupid people that think they actually know the good history of DR but then they actully vandalize it..i been blamed for vandalism over three times without actually doing it...that is wrong and shouldnt be done..SIMPLE!EdwinCasadoBaez 01:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If you know so much why are you in denial about the facts that were given about DR? It's ok to be proud, but its better to be factual and realistic. Again please observe the Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. 64.131.205.111 02:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Where did i put down any other culture, DR was not the first and wouldn't be the last to stand up for it right...and what wrong taking Urban Music and doing in Spanish...African American and Dominican have the same blood in them, matter fact the whole does for that matter we all came from Africa, evolution ever heard of it. Merengue was started in DR, Trujillo only made popular among the elites but the other classes was already listen to it Avfnx 03:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Prove it! what links do you have? There is nothing wrong with taking music and doing it in spanish, but when you say something like "how a small country has two music genre that very popular and was started there." it's not true to say it started there. Rap local (spanish rap) was taking african american music and saying it in spanish. Merengue was taken from haiti's meringue and sung in spanish. So if african american and dominican have the same blood, how are they not black? hmm........ 64.131.205.111 03:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

See the thing is we don't use that, Dominican actually don't call them self white either. That a USA doing things you black or white. For Dominican there no race your Dominican that it. you don't understand our point of view, we don't understand yours. And Reggeaton was taken from Panama, that is true. prove to me merengue not Dominican...and don't get those google resources get it from reliable source, cause i could make page and say what i want. I don't need prove nothing the world knows that merengue is Dominican. Avfnx 03:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you prove that Merengue isn't based off of Meringue from Haiti? You can't because it came from Haiti! 64.131.205.111 07:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you prove it came from Haiti cause by your theory Dominican started listen to Merengue in Trujillo time, the elites did cause Trujillo clean up the lyrics. But the lower class was been listen to Merengue. Where the prove that came from Haiti, let see it 24.190.180.244 16:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Merengue or Meringue started in Haiti http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/merengue/sdhmerengue.htm 64.131.205.111 21:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Another one "If merengue came from Haiti, which was the dominant country on Hispaniola at the time of the dance's origin, we can credit the word to Haitian Creole French, which is an official language of the country, along with French. There are about seven million inhabitants of Haiti, and while perhaps 5 percent of them speak French, they all speak the French-based, African-influenced Creole. The word merengue comes from the familiar French confectionery word and suggests the lightness and quickness of the dance. No other words of Haitian Creole French have stepped into English. " [] " Like merengue in the Dominican Republic, mereng (in Haitiean Creole, méringue in French) is a national symbol in Haiti. according to Jean Fouchard, mereng evolved from the fusion of slave musics such as the chica and calenda with ballroom forms related to the French contredanse Mereng's name, he says, derives from the mouringue music of the Bara, a Bantu people of Madagascar. That few Malagasies came to the Americas renders this etymology dubiou, but it is significant because it forgrounds what Fouchard, and most Haitians, consider the essentially African-derived nature of their music and national identity. Dominican merengue, Jean Fouchard suggests, developed directly from Haitian mereng." "Dominicans are often disinclined to admit African and Haitian influences on their culture. As ethnomusicologist Martha Davis points out, many Dominican scholars "have, at the least, ignored African influence in Santo Domingo. At the worst, they have bent over backwards to convince themselves and their readers of the one hundred percent Hispanic content of their culture. " http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_merengue.html "One version of the history of merengue in the Dominican Republic is that merengue may be connected with the Haitian dance called “meringue” or “mereng”. The mereng of Haiti (meringue if spoken in French) is one of the national icons of Haiti and is said to have originated by the slaves of Haiti in the early times. Merengue and mereng are very much alike. The only difference is that the merengue is dictated by the accordion while the mereng sound is based on guitar." . Best of luck in arguing this one. 64.131.205.111 21:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I give up arguing with on every little point you come up with...look the page you got ya info from, did you know it easy make a page in, and everything on the web not true. I here make DR article the best it can be, learn more about the history of DR... you wanna make propaganda, i guess i have work around you, by not paying mind to you. you win cause from now on you going argue among your self.EdwinCasadoBaez user made a point, this not going anywhere Avfnx 07:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Great source, but how can we read it? All we know is that it exists. 64.131.205.111 19:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Click on the links provided.Dominican 19:19, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The page you sent us to is not in english and the pdf file cannot be viewed. 64.131.205.111 20:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Learn Spanish. Download Acrobat Reader. Dominican 20:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

This is the englis version of wikipedia. That attitide is clearly ridiculous and unfair. I have adobe pdf and the file can't be viewed. If it can't be viewed than the source is heresay 64.131.205.111 20:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Lets not get this discussion into a fight. You are right at the fact that the main pdf file seems not to be available at this moment. But the other files are. They are in Spanish and at first glance they are interesting and used in English translations on the net. On the English Wikipedia Spanish sources of course may be used, but if available English sources are preferable. There is no such thing as heresy in editing Wikipedia. I think that Dominican can also provide sources in English for this topic. VirtualDelight 20:46, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Musical traces of merengue or as it is known in haiti, meringue, to haiti can be found here. 64.131.205.111 21:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I moved this discussion here, to keep "Topics" clean.
 * Annonymous, you keep adding to the actions that clearly show that you just want to boycott the article. I haven't written a single word from the reference given and you are already trying to discard it by calling it "heresay".
 * I'll try to get references in English, but recall that almost everything that is written in the DR will be in Spanish. If we are planning to create a good encyclopedic article about a Spanish speaking country, we need to know the language. It is like pretending to be the one of the main editors of Russia and not knowing Russian. We would be omitting probably the best references. In that case, the person should back down and let people who know more than him/her discuss about the topic.
 * I admit that English is not my first language, and in that case, I will let native English speakers to proof-read whatever I write. That's OK with me.
 * On the other hand, you were bluffing that you knew vernacular Domincan Spanish (cursing only, though), so I thought you would at least be proficient enough to understand the standard written language. Dominican 21:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Was what i said dominican spanish? dimelo loco!!!! Que lo que? For the english version of website please use english. 64.131.205.111 21:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

TO USER 64.131.205.111: The problem is that theirs not alot of references of DR in english. As you may know DR is not of country that has received a lot of importance from english speaking countries until recently, for that reason most of the historic articles that we may find are in spanish. Spanish is the official language of DR which makes it hard to find official documents in English. We should use spanish and/or English reference because it would be easier(of Course English reference would be more appreciated but Spanish references are ok too).The best refernce are in spanish language and we can't deny that. I believe too that sometimes people add stuff without reference and that sometimes they are correct. People have self knowledge and it shouldnt be ignored or deleted just because it doesnt show a reference. We should be neutral in all cases guys and please try to make efforts understand spanish. Spanish is not"Que Lo que..Tamo cloro...Dime cara de creta,etc" that is spanish slang and we should know that.EdwinCasadoBaez 22:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Who here speaks Egyptian? or speaks Mayan? No one here. But we still know a lot about them. You do not need to know a language to know about a culture. Do you know German? But i bet you know a a lot about hitler! 64.131.205.111 04:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Merengue or Meringue started in Haiti http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/merengue/sdhmerengue.htm 64.131.205.111 21:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Another one "If merengue came from Haiti, which was the dominant country on Hispaniola at the time of the dance's origin, we can credit the word to Haitian Creole French, which is an official language of the country, along with French. There are about seven million inhabitants of Haiti, and while perhaps 5 percent of them speak French, they all speak the French-based, African-influenced Creole. The word merengue comes from the familiar French confectionery word and suggests the lightness and quickness of the dance. No other words of Haitian Creole French have stepped into English. " [] " Like merengue in the Dominican Republic, mereng (in Haitiean Creole, méringue in French) is a national symbol in Haiti. according to Jean Fouchard, mereng evolved from the fusion of slave musics such as the chica and calenda with ballroom forms related to the French contredanse Mereng's name, he says, derives from the mouringue music of the Bara, a Bantu people of Madagascar. That few Malagasies came to the Americas renders this etymology dubiou, but it is significant because it forgrounds what Fouchard, and most Haitians, consider the essentially African-derived nature of their music and national identity. Dominican merengue, Jean Fouchard suggests, developed directly from Haitian mereng." "Dominicans are often disinclined to admit African and Haitian influences on their culture. As ethnomusicologist Martha Davis points out, many Dominican scholars "have, at the least, ignored African influence in Santo Domingo. At the worst, they have bent over backwards to convince themselves and their readers of the one hundred percent Hispanic content of their culture. " http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_merengue.html "One version of the history of merengue in the Dominican Republic is that merengue may be connected with the Haitian dance called “meringue” or “mereng”. The mereng of Haiti (meringue if spoken in French) is one of the national icons of Haiti and is said to have originated by the slaves of Haiti in the early times. Merengue and mereng are very much alike. The only difference is that the merengue is dictated by the accordion while the mereng sound is based on guitar." . Best of luck in arguing this one. 64.131.205.111 21:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

No more IP Edits!
Great stuff!No more IP Edits over here!Only discussing in talk page is avalable69.119.127.181 07:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

PORTRAYING DOMINICANS AS CARICATURES.
Hey 64.131, let me ask you something. If DR is so anti-haitian and anti-black or " self-denial", how come the majority of the population voted for José Francisco Peña Gómez(who was of Haitian decent and blacker than petroleum), in 1994?? How come today the airport in Santo Domingo is named after him? you also have many parks and roads named after him. Many people still worship him like he is a god, even white-looking Dominicans that followed him. Nice job your doing cherrypicking information and just pointing out negative information. Also, the " racial issues" don't belong in this article, that should be an article just for itself. I don't see in the Haiti Article how Christophe killed all the whites that he invited to re-settle Haiti, and how many Mulattoes were massacred in Haiti, many had to flee to New Orleans. I know it was a matter of " Haitian national security" back then, due to the hostile circumstances that surrounded it. Simply, because that don't belong in the Haiti Article. And now, you locked the article, in order for you to smear DR. Also, when was the last time you picked up a Dominican history textbook that is used in schools(in Spanish language, ofcourse)? This is 2007, not 1957 you know. The bad part is that this is not helping the situation of Haitians in DR at all. The generalization, stereotype of Dominicans as " Black-denier caricatures" will just cause anger to Dominicans that have sympathy for Haitians. The image of Haiti too abroad, is not getting to get better by this smearing campaign. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.177.181.129 (talk • contribs).


 * That very true!!!I think theres no way to argue that against!69.118.48.94 05:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Racial identity issues
This a first, im Dominican born and I can't find anywhere in my documents where it says my race. What someone put was skin color, that where we use color like trigeno and so. This Anti-Dominican know so much that something i can't find where ceduala or passport says race. This article everyday turning more and more to pure garbage. Haitian made article talking about DR, I know there anti-Dominican propagana going only cause Haiti mess up there country and now what turn DR to a desert..like Haiti is (Al Gore documentary for those that wanna know where I got my info from) AvFnx 00:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * with a nation that has a large mixed population, sometimes race may be ambiguous. The Dominican population does have a history of racial issues especially in the light of Antihaitianismo.  The United Nations which supports human rights has had some issues with the lack of human rights that are given to some Haitians by the government of Dominican Republic.  I don't understand why you seem to have such issues with Haiti.  You don't see Puerto Rican's treating Dominican's or even talking about Dominincan's half as bad as you talk about Haitians.   You are on the same island with a porous border.  You are the same people, separated by government, and sometimes language.  The island was ruled 100% for a time by Spain, 100% for a time by France, 100% for a time by the Taino's, 100% of the time by Haiti.  It's like some of the issues you might see within African American culture.  The whole debate about color complex.   It was government propaganda.  It was a method of keeping the poor happy because you were considered to be at least better than the "haitians."  You are proud that you are "lighter or whiter" than the Haitians? Slavery was  You think 95% of haitians are african looking.  Guess again, http://www.haitixchange.com/article_0023.asp!  Haitian's are as light as they come and as dark as they come.  Same thing as in the Dominican Republic.  Jean-Claude Duvalier is as light as your current president fernandez.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4253674.stm . Raoul Cédras another leader in Haiti

would also be considered to be near white in Dominican culture http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/940000/images/_942489_raoul_cedras300elvisap.jpg. Haitian revolutionary and general André Rigaud was mulatto. The mulatto's were the one's who liberated Haiti  look up Alexandre Pétion. General Jean-Pierre Boyer the Haitian President who unified or invaded the colony of Santo Domingo was mulatto as well. . So it wasn't the "blacks haitians" who invaded Dominican Republic it was the mulatto haitians! Haiti is as mixed as the Dominican Republic. The difference is that Haiti recognizes it's culture. The Dominican Republic is well documented to be in denial of it. Ideology is what kept many down and continues to keep many people down. 64.131.205.111 08:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * First of this article not turning to Puerto Rico article, there not documentary that trying destroy Dominican Republic economy from PR. I don't deny my African roots. I'm more proud of my African roots then Spain roots. How can't you be proud of African roots when African control the world culture. Merengue base African music (controls Dominican Culture), Hip Pop was started by African decedents. I think your book smart but you buying in to much in to this propaganda. Listen to Rap Local (Mi Cultura) and you see Dominicans are proud there African roots. I got nothing against Haitian people but I'm not going have going let this Dominican defamation go on uncheck. Wouldn't you have a problem someone burning the flag of you country, especially when you Catholic and the flag has the bible, and the cross...and then saying i want your citizenship as they doing do that. Well for one thing Haiti not as mixed as DR, but I do agree with there the White elites like DR (that don't really care about the country), there mulatto, and pure African decedents. Haiti and DR do share lot things in common, but if they would stay one country DR would have been in the same state that Haiti is in. I don't know where Haiti recognizes there culture when they praise there French culture more, and claim that better then Spanish of DR, while been in DR...you book smart, i see things for my own eyes. Back to the real argument DR doesn't classified it people by race so there goes you argument, and Dominican don't deny there African roots, if it did then Merengue wouldn't exist. Dominicans Don't hate Haitians Dominicans have been rule by Haitian president or voted for one; from past President to Pena Gomez I don't see where the HATE ideology at yes you can bring 100 article but the fact of the matter go to DR and really see what goes on,  go to Dominican Colleges and you see there lots of Haitian in DR, rich one too... if it was like you said they would go else where. AvFnx 10:29, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

more on the ID cards You are right, AVnx, those ID cards say nothing about race, it just say color. '''And since when color means race?? ''' So if some Dravidian person has " color=negro" on his card, that means that he is African?? But you know where that bs comes from? from some "scholars "like Ernesto Sagas from CUNY, who does seem to have a hidden agenda. He stated that " color=indio" on cards, meant that " race is Indian". He had a rain of critics for publishing that garbage on his book, I'll find it later and publish it here. Torres-Saillant on the other hand, is more careful in not making such stupid assertions that later can be exploited by people like...you know who. and that is the problem that we have now. " indio" can mean one of two things, a person can mean it as " color of an indian,or cinammon color" or " indian decent". More likely, it is the first, since in DR school textbooks say that indians(tainos)got extinct. " Indio" is just description of the varios shades of Mulatto, but how that exactly negates African ancestry if you don't even ask that person that question?? and that is called prejudice. Making an entire judgement just because somebody said " indio"?? Ernesto Sagas don't explain none of this, so his book is kind of caca, because it doesn't elaborate more on that.
 * Keep doing the good work in fighting this antidominicanismo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.181.129 (talk • contribs)

Puerto Ricans could never talk bad about Dominicans because they used to migrate our island in large quantities in the late 1800's and early 1900's...Infact the only reason we leave to puerto rico is to use it as a bridge to get to the United States..Only like 25% of the ones that reach Puerto Rico actually stay there!69.118.48.94 21:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

That is simply racist and without any kind of factual basis. That kind of talk does not belong in this article. BoriquaStar 03:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

A Case of Sock Puppet i want to ask to other Wikipedians
Sad sad stuff...For some reason i belive that Ip 64.131.... and User:YoSoyGuapo are the same persons!I'm going to talk to some Admisnistrators to figure out because is weird that they both got the sam tecniques of writing and the same accusations to Dominicans Against Haitians...Guys could ya help me out doing this please????if anybody wants to see!is bugs me that they have the same writing styles!69.118.48.94 05:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.48.94 (talk • contribs)

For some reason i belive that Ip 64.131.... and User:YoSoyGuapo are the same persons!I'm going to talk to some Admisnistrators to figure out because is weird that they both got the same tecniques of writing and the same accusations to Dominicans Against Haitians(while Positively having the same agenda, If not check at the history of the Dominican Article and the recent changes of YoSoyGuapo)...Guys could ya help me out doing this please????if anybody wants to see!is bugs me that they have the same writing styles!69.118.48.94 05:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Ya should take into consideration that Ip:64.131... was the one that posted the warnings in user talkpages when they were "personally Attacking" and that User:YoSoyGuapo was the actual one that brought the case in and blocked the users most of the time!Check this in pages of User:memeco User:Jonathanmbaez,user:Platanogenius,user:EdwinCasadoBaez (and the other suspected sock puppets of EdwinCasadoBaez]]69.118.48.94 05:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have any evidence of this? Furthermore, do you have any evidence of him being disruptive?  --Haemo 05:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Simply look the Dominican Article been edit a lot by User:YoSoyGuapo ever since IP block, while used be lot edit by IP 64.131. that my only my thought. calling people monkey in spanish, and other things which i choose not to translated cause there might kids reading this, I don't understand how s/he get aways w/ personal attacks. AvFnx 10:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

now one used the word monkey. the word mono means cute. http://ets.freetranslation.com/ 64.131.205.111 11:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

And the other things, people pay w/ what... and so on and sure you meant as cute...this means cute


 * Avfnx no eso fue porque tu tio te lo dijo oh cuando tu eras mas joven i despues que tu abuelo te toco el pene 64.131.205.111 03:06, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

And funny that you thought didn't i see it. 

AvFnx 11:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Found other user name of ip DMVGuy Ip 64.131 AvFnx 12:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Please anybody that is a good administrator here!!can ya do a user check or something!!!because User:YosoyGuapo and User:64.131.205.111 have the similar(If not exact) type of editing in this article....Please check their Ip Addresses and check if they similar because after they semi-protected the article User:YoSoyGuapo started editing much more than before(probably replacing the Annonymous user IP:64.131.205.111)65.220.104.16 20:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Avfnx no eso fue porque tu tio te lo dijo oh cuando tu eras mas joven i despues que tu abuelo te toco el pene" in a full literal translation to english this means "avfnx, no that was because your uncle told you that when you were younger...after you grandpa touch your u penis!!!" this is the most literal translation i can write and for me is discrasefull and offensive in anyway!!!he talk about someones family that he doesnt even know and then talks about touching someones penis!!!!Embarrasing and thi should be an immediate block!65.220.104.16 20:31, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Back from the block,if you want checkuser here the page AvFnx 16:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Crime Section,Again
Again i ask for User:YoSoyGuapo to revert his decision of adding Dominicans Don't Play AND Bloods into the Crime Article! The crime that involves Dominicans Don't Play happen outside the country and mostly in the United States and Spain!This means that this crimes dont affect in anyway the safety of any Tourist in the country or of it's citizens because of the fact that this crimes are comitted outside the country!This gangs can contain many nationalities! Just because the Name is Dominicans Dont Play doesnt mean is inter connected to the Country! You should have more concensus when adding Info into subheadings! SAD!
 * 69.118.48.94 05:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

should it be placed in the Emigration section? would you prefer that? 64.131.205.111 07:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

hey Haemo, this 64.131.205.111 has commited several violations here, but he is an administrator, and has gotten away with it. Here is an example: #REDIRECT mira maldito mono tu quieres leche en su cara o en su boca? Was that good enough for you? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.131.205.111 (talk • contribs)., he called another user " f* monkey" in Spanish. He has abused his authority as an administrator to turn this Wikipedia article, into a propaganda. He has deleted the sources of the " Dominican-Haitian Wars" section, because he doesn't like the historical fact that smaller Dominican troops defeated the larger Haitian Army. in order to find a " loophole" like " citation needed" in order to erase that piece from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.181.129 (talk • contribs)

now one used the word monkey. the word means cute. 64.131.205.111 11:01, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

64.131.205.111 is not an administrator. It is impossible to be an anonymous IP with admin powers.--Rosicrucian 18:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe he is not an administrator himself but he got people Like YoSoyguapo who act identically ike him and that could be his username!Probably YoSoyguapo is a sock puppet of Ip 64.131.205!

By the way!!!Maldito Mono=Fucking Monkey and thats what you said some days ago in this article!Dont lie65.220.104.16 20:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Why are u defending User:YoSoyGuapo edits??Why are u agreeing with his edits?as u did over here

"should it be placed in the Emigration section? would you prefer that? 64.131.205.111 07:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)"

This is kinda Weird!!first of all he does the same type of edits as User:YoSoyGuapo and then he defends him ultimately!!Again i ask...can anybody do a UserCheck!65.220.104.16 20:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

well he is not defending him but he still agreeing with his edits!he agrees that Crime that Dominicans Comit in NYC and United states or Spain should be included in the Dominican Article!I dont think that should be added...it should be added in the United States Crime Section but not in the Dominican Crime Section! but He should Be Banned!!!Banned From this Site!!!HelP HELP!69.118.48.94 21:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I have moved it to the Emigration section, as it is discussing Dominicans abroad rather than domestic crime.--Rosicrucian 23:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. 64.131.205.111 01:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Parsley Massacre
how is it was Massacre and people want to call it genocide, yea this article is neutral alright AvFnx 12:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

No...User:Avfnx....probably it can be called an attempt of Genocidie!!!is not neccessarily wrong!65.220.104.16 20:21, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

That using opinion on this, which for my understanding you can be doing that AvFnx 16:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah thats true.....is not an opinion based!is suppose to be factual!69.120.72.147 17:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Beside your Anti-Dominican page, where have you read genocide...I want read it, and please understand only cause you read something in the Internet don't make it true. AvFnx 03:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I wanna know
and from which the name Haiti is derived

what that got do with DR, that sound like a Haiti fact, shouldn't that be in Haiti page.

News of the atrocity filtered out of the country slowly; when it reached the previously supportive administration of President Franklin D. Roosevelt in the United States, Secretary of State Cordell Hull demanded internationally mediated negotiations for a settlement and indemnity. Trujillo finally agreed. The negotiations, however, fixed a ludicrously low indemnity of US$750,000, which was later reduced to US$525,000 by agreement between the two governments. Although the affair damaged Trujillo's international image, it did not result in any direct efforts by the United States or by other countries to force him from power. 

In stark contradiction to his virulent anti-Haitian rhetoric, the Trujillo administration maintained cordial relations with most Haitian governments. The 1937 "incident" was settled through diplomatic channels and the Dominican Republic agreed to pay an indemnity of $750,000.

Where does it say demand or force, my English most be really bad. I can't find it can you? AvFnx 12:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Dominican-Haitian Wars
http://www.canalsocial.net/GER/ficha_GER.asp?id=7924&cat=historia

That page was cited, proof what was written, and remove is there a reason for that. I know that is in Spanish but can't we have this till at least get replace, I think having this is better not having nothing. AvFnx 02:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Found better stuff http://www.websterfl.edu/~corbetre/haiti//misctopic/dominican/conception.htm 64.131.205.111 03:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't really talk about the war, the war that asking for cited page. AvFnx 04:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Dominican-Haitian Wars Part II
where did it go, how can someone remove with out taking in the talk page... AvFnx 04:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It was barely cited material for one thing. The other thing is that the citations weren't in english. The 3rd thing is that there is little evidence of another war outside of the war of independence. 64.131.205.111 04:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Only cause not one of your page, don't mean didn't happen. It a well know fact Haiti invaded Dominican Republic over and over again...and as you can see a smaller army won. AvFnx 05:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * umm.. Dr's army was bigger.. your information is faulty.

State Entry Exit Combat Forces Population Losses Haiti 1844  1844     3000      60000       1000 Rebels 1844 1844      10000    100000      1000 There is no other information about a War... and i've looked. 64.131.205.111 05:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Haiti was a army, Dominicans was a rebel force...and well Dominican had a smaller population (there something wrong w/ that information...DR surpasses Haiti in population in the mid 1970's), maybe had more people with pride then AvFnx 15:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Now Quisqueya is remove, and not vandalism. AvFnx 05:26, 11 June 2007 (UTC) Quisquella wasn't cited. It's been going on for a while with Fact and no citation for it. Taino information for Taino page. 64.131.205.111 05:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Quisqueya not a Taino thing, the Dominican National Anthem has it on it...and Dominicans do call them self Quisqueyano AvFnx 15:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Good Website to look at. It has some information
http://workmall.com/wfb2001/dominican_republic/dominican_republic_history_haiti_and_santo_domingo.html 64.131.205.111 06:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Removing unsourced and irrelevant material
The article contains irrelevant and unsourced information that should be removed: "Other names for Hispaniola are Bohio  and Ayiti ("land of the high mountains" ; and from which the name Haiti is derived"
 * Shouldn’t this be in the article about Haiti or Hispaniola?

"which to some have become problematic due to the Dominican Government's treatment of Haitians. Currently there is a bill in the Puerto Rican Senate that wishes to serverly restrict the entrance of Dominicans into Puerto Rico until the situation for Haitians in the Dominican Republic improves greatly"
 * The Dominican Government's treatment of Haitians immigrants workers is well known, and well documented in the article. But the part about the Puerto Rican Senate is unsourced and unlikely,since the P.R. Senate can't restrict legal immigration, this is a matter of U.S. Federal Law.

The Part about the DDP gang is just ridiculous. First, it is not a Dominican based gang. Second, how is the "Emigration" section entirely devoted to criminality? also, according to the sources the DDP is a minor street gang in both the U.S. and Spain, and has followed the pattern of many ethnic street gangs in the U.S. It's nothing special, like the Mafia. - Rafelito 07:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you actually suggesting the Mafia is NN?--Rosicrucian 16:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No. I'm suggesting DDP is NN (at least in the context of this article)--Rafelito 20:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Dominicans Don't Play is a dominican based gang. Even the name suggest's so. They are also an international gang. BoriquaStar 23:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * DDP is not based in the DR:

"Dominicans Don't Play (DDP) is a New York based street gang comprised of Latino youths whose heritage is traced to the Dominican Republic. They are largely concentrated in the Washington Heights section of Manhattan parts of Queens, The Bronx and Brooklyn . More recently the gang has expanded to New Jersey  , Florida, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Atlanta and Ossining. Law enforcement identifies members through the wearing of black, blue, white and red beads "--Rafelito 01:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That is why it is in the Emmigration section. For Dominican's who have left the nation. BoriquaStar 02:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't see Mafia mentioned in the Italy article, or Mara Salvatrucha mentioned in El Salvador, or Latin Kings mentioned in Puerto Rico, etc.--Rafelito 02:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I vote to have the mention of of something in irrelevant material be remove. AvFnx 08:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Rafelito, If you look at the Sicily article you will see that there is a prominent mention of Mafia (even a whole section) dedicated to it, MS-13 is mentioned in the [Salvador] article.   So an international gang which was chased and arrested by the  FBI isn't important?   Emmigration section is people who have left the nation and DDP are dominicans who have left the nation and commit crimes. I find that very hard to believe it doesnt belong.. BoriquaStar 08:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The Mafia originated and operated in Sicily that's why it is mentioned in Sicily not in Italy. The MS-13 reference in El Salvador is about people who have been deported and now live in El Salvador (they speak english which is relevant in the demographics section), it does not elaborate (correctly) on their criminal activities outside of the country. DDP chased and arrested by the FBI? The emigration section as it is constituted right now is about crimes commited outside the dominican jurisdiction by people of dominican ancestry, it should be about emigration patterns like everywhere else.--Rafelito 16:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Every article is different. If you like expand on the other emigration things that are going on.  BoriquaStar 03:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Every article is different?. The criteria and most wikipedia guidelines apply to all articles.--Rafelito 15:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

What about Latin Kings, or the Netas why they not mention, I have looked many country article and can't see the same thing been push...If you wanna make other article talking about DDP (which there is) I don't see the point of having it in the Dominican Article AvFnx 08:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I think what most people want is for this to get remove only seem like only one person really cares about that. AvFnx 03:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Rosicrucian 16:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC) see's it's relavence as well. BoriquaStar 04:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

"The gang with the most members is the Dominicans Don't Play, the rivals of the Latin Kings and the Ñetas, from which they broke away. The group originated in Santo Domingo and popped up among Dominicans in Spain in December 2004 in imitation of the gang in their homeland. " BoriquaStar 05:23, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all this is only one source (most sources state DDP originated in NY). Second, it is unreliable because it also states that DDP broke away from the Latin Kings and Netas.--Rafelito 15:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what so important about it, those gangs where made in NYC, by Dominican born in NYC...actually DDP is not even in DR, if it is it a very small one, and it fact they a small unknown gang, even in NYC. Why keeping this so important, as you can see your the only one saying not to take off. AvFnx 10:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

That one reference states that it is started in Santo Domingo. They are as notable as the mafia in Sicily. It's like saying MS-13 isn't notable. BoriquaStar 14:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, it's only one reference and it's flawed (most sources state DDP originated in NY). You will have to provide evidence that they are as notable as the mafia in Sicily. Nobody is disputing the notability of Dominicans Don't Play (it has its own article), what we are disputing is their relevance to this article--Rafelito 15:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the Sicily article you will see that there is a prominent mention of Mafia (even a whole section) dedicated to it, MS-13 is mentioned in the [Salvador] article. So an international gang which was chased and arrested by the FBI isn't important? Emmigration section is people who have left the nation and DDP are dominicans who have left the nation and commit crimes. The group originated in Santo Domingo and popped up among Dominicans in Spain in December 2004 in imitation of the gang in their homeland. "  . Why don't we all agree to file an RFC or maybe simply shorten the section.  BoriquaStar 16:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You keep repeating arguments that already have been refuted and don’t comment on other issues raised . We don’t file an RFC because is not necessary, we have to remove irrelevant and unsourced information.--Rafelito 18:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As before they aren't being addressed. The information is cited and concerns emigrant groups from DR  which makes it relevant.  I've made a compromise to shorten it or simply file an RFC.  Which I think is fair.  BoriquaStar 18:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, you keep repeating arguments that already have been refuted and ignore parts of the discussion. First, I have already explined why this is not a good source (you should take a look at the other sources too). Second, I find your rationale or criteria for relevance very odd, are we going to detail the behavior of every immigrant group of every country or from every country in the articles about their country of origin? The answer is no, that's not how wikipedia works, that's why there are specific articles (like Dominican-American or Dominicans Don't Play) that address specific issues. Again you should address others issues being raised in this discussion. We should read and discuss all the points that have been presented.--Rafelito 20:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

alright, lets try to reach Consensus on this issue. BoriquaStar 22:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I dont trust this User:BoriquaStar...He has been in wikipedia for the last 5-7 days and he has only made notable edits in the dominican Republic article or in the dominican republic talkpage(while calling himself BoricuaStar!!!Its very weird!!look at the Contributions he has . A notable amount of edits of IP:64.131... and User:YoSoyGuapo have decreased lately while now User:BoriquaStar jumps in after they leave this article...Is making me see this in a suspicious Sockpuppetry case!In his first week he acussed Avnfx of Vandalism which is not supposed to be done by a new user...He Then Asked for protection of the Dominican Republic Article the same way IP:64.131 did...EdwinCasadoBaez 22:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Ed, I didn't accuse Avfnx of anything that he didn't admit he did. . If you go on my talk page he says that he changed a conversation and says that it was an accident; he then apologizes for it. . You can view the flow here created spaces which I saw here     and then he said that i signed it. .  Familiarize yourself with Assume good faith because looking at your block log you have been blocked repeatedly. but no body is holding that against you. Page protection was asked by me as well as another user User:Evilclown93 after the last 3 dozen contributions. . My request was and if you look it was based on some guy who says the Dominican Republic was founded by some racist society ; I see a problem with that last one...do you? BoriquaStar 23:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah...i was blocked but no because i was vandalizing the page!!!i was actually defending the article and thats why no body says nothing about it!You could ask anybody over here!EdwinCasadoBaez 02:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Back to the point
Emigration


 * Main article: Dominican illegal immigration to Puerto Rico

How the emigration main article is that, if that was the case then the whole thing should go. I want know what the whole point put the things are that, and when they half true, only one side of the story been play out. DDP was started in NYC, there goes that source. Other thing DDP is a very very small gang, that don't play no role in Dominican life style...or way of life. My question is simple why is this been put...what is the usefulness of this information. AvFnx 07:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Racial identity issues II
Last time I tried bring this up went of subject. Dominican Republic don't categorizes people by race, what that article is talking is skin color. that need to get clean up, or erase, or any other suggestion. AvFnx 15:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why saying it's skin color rather than race is somehow less inflammatory, but if you say that it's more accurate I have no problems changing it. I've done what you've asked.--Rosicrucian 16:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Many Dominicans self-identify as being of mixed-race rather than "black" in contrast to African identity movements in other nations."

Calling our self mix is the right term, that way we don't deny any of race. I don't see how calling mix is denying any race. If was that one race is been push over other then there they be a deny of race, but instead all race that make up Dominican been push forward. This article seem to be pushing Dominican should call them self African and forget about there Hispanic and Taino Culture and blood...What wrong calling you self mix when you are. AvFnx 00:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Taino's were extermindated in hispanola. They only servived in Puerto Rico and Cuba. Hispanic is a mixture of black, white, indian. I think you mean, Spaniard, and Black when you talk about DR. BoriquaStar 08:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There evidence of Tainos getting mix with the population, do you watch the history channel there even said that as high of 80 percent of the Dominican population has Taino blood in them. Dominican History books says they got mix with the population. That a whole different issue, point is that Racial identity say that Dominican should call them self African descents and forget about the other mixtures. AvFnx 08:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Who against me erasing that part of the article? AvFnx 03:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There are numerous citations that say the Taino's in DR were killed off. They only really surivived in Puerto Rico and Cuba.  Which is why you see such a color difference between Dominican's and Puerto Rican's.  I for one am against it.  That portion is heavily cited and has various sources speaking about it.  BoriquaStar 03:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Most those cited page have wrong information, the Cedula doesn't have race on it. What really the point that article...only cause i say im a mulatto means im deying been Black. That Dominicans should only call them self black. And there many that say Taino in DR got mix. Any one else have a thought in this? AvFnx 03:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * would you rather it say racial/color identity issues on the article? Taino's were exterminated. Here is another source, "the Taino race was exterminated in some 50 years, limiting its impact on Dominican culture" .  " In the Puerto Rico census made at the end of the 18th century by order of Carlos III of Spain, proof was given that the Taino natives were not exterminated in the first half of the 15th century, since in 1799 there was a documented contingent of some 2,302 pure natives of Taino Indian blood living in the country and who had settled in the Central Cordillera (Puerto Rico's Central Mountain Range). "   .   So if you want to go and see Tainos  you go to Puerto Rico.  Domincan's are basically black with some whites.  BoriquaStar 04:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * That your thought and i respect that, but as you can see in the talk page i found sources says other wise. My point is there really no need have that, a Dominican that mix (which the majority of the population is) call him self mix, s/he is denying been black. And as you can see your he only one has a problem with this, been taken out... really why, when some of the source not true, Dominican actually don't call them self by race, because we not classified by race...skin tone well that a description of someone. I don't see where the denying is at. AvFnx 10:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The United Nations says that it is racism. . Since a consensus can't be reached simply file for an RFC. BoriquaStar 14:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Why you care so much about this?AvFnx 17:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the majority want this part taken off, I don't want go in to editing war...if anyone against please give the reason why it should stay. AvFnx 06:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If you didn't want to go into an edit war, you shouldn't have deleted it singlehandedly. Where is the "majority" you're talking about here? You were still having significant debate about it when you blanked the section. I don't see where you've built consensus.--Rosicrucian 14:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If you want bring back, but the thing is that most of the "cited" source where things that wasn't true. Dominican really don't into this whole race thing and they call them self mulatto cause they mix... The user i was debating with was block, everyone else wanted it remove. But if you want debate I have no problem with that, it can still get bring back. AvFnx 15:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, reviewing the issue I was unaware that there had been actual sockpuppet bans involving those users. I had often wondered why that IP had flat-out told me he wasn't going to register a username, and it now appears it's because he was using the IP along with his registered name to create false consensus.


 * The section was pretty much me trying to soften up the claims of that user and what have turned out to be his socks. I wasn't straying too much from what he had because if I did he'd start reverting.


 * However it does seem there is at least some evidence for a genuine issue that could make for an informative section. If it's okay with you, I'd like a chance to go over the section and revise it a bit to be more even-handed, and if you guys still think it shouldn't be in the article we can finally kill it after that. I'll try to find some opposing sources to counter the claims in the section so it can show both sides.


 * Sound cool?--Rosicrucian 16:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No problem it all yours, after your done we will see. Hope keep working with you...See don't think only cause I don't agree with it that I will delete it, I want to debate and have a agreement. Go ahead. AvFnx 05:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Good job finish reading it, and it neutral. But can we come out with a better tittle, a neutral one. AvFnx 05:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've currently renamed it to just "Self-Identification," which is pretty much what it is.--Rosicrucian 14:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

see to one side it...let agree on having neutral sources AvFnx 17:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

This not a good source
 That trying playing as news...seem to one sided to be considered a good source AvFnx 22:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

What makes it not a good source? I fail to see what makes it bad or one sided. It's a site that seems to detail human right abuses. This here may be a good article to use from the same source. It speaks about how the Constitution works " Article 11 of the Dominican Republic's Constitution, which bestows citizenship on anyone born within the borders of the Dominican Republic, babies born to Dominico-Haitians and Haitian immigrants — many of whom had been living in the Dominican Republic for decades — are often said to be infants of those who are "in transit" and thus not eligible for citizenship, as also written in the Constitution. This widespread use of the "in transit" clause as justification for the denial of birth certificates has sparked outrage among non-governmental organizations (NGOs) and human rights groups, and has been cited in reports issued by organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. "  This would challenge the right of blood controversy that has seemed to been a cause of issues on this talk page. If anything can someone get an english translation of constitution of the Dominican Republic. BoriquaStar 01:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Why don't you read it in Spanish, anything that are translated then to loss it meaning. What make a good source is a source that comes from plave that can be trusted, other wise it only people thoughts. If you can use any "source" i the internet then how good of a source is that. The internet is full  of people thoughts and nothing wrong with that, but when people take that as facts that whole different issue AvFnx 08:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Removing irrelevant material
The article contains irrelevant and unsourced information that should be removed: "and from which the name Haiti is derived" Shouldn’t this be in the article about Haiti or Hispaniola? Like it stated before but was the was taken to other point, any objection of me deleting this AvFnx 00:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It's as relavent as Quisqilla. So if you don't want to use Quisquilla you don't have to use Bohio or Ayiti or how it's spelled. BoriquaStar 01:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Not the Ayiti im talking about that Haiti name came from. AvFnx 07:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Lets just leave that for the hispanola article. BoriquaStar 08:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

TRYING TO CENSOR HISTORY
Hey people, this 64.131 guy is keeping getting away with murder in this article. Not only here, but he goes to any other article about Dominicans and try to censor there too. Check the Máximo Gómez  article. From the WHOLE article, the part that says that " he combated Soulouque", was the only one that he placed a " citation needed". This is a technic that he has in order to censor anything about " Haiti" and " Haitians that he don't like ". ( eg:Haitian Army getting defeated by much smaller Dominican Forces). .  hmm, what a coincidence. He also said that" Gomez was born in Haiti,because what is now DR, was governed by Haiti back then, hahaha"He did the same thing with the Dominican-Haitian Wars section. It just bothers this Haitian that the Haiti's army's was defeated in three wars. There was a source in that, he deleted it, and got away with it, as usual. Language is always a " loophole" for this "you fill in the blank" character to censoring. Other administrators, please tell us, when this abuse of authority is going to stop? Now he is denying that there were any other invasions after the 1844. Not even in Haitixchange.com they say such stupidity, that is a reputable website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.181.129 (talk • contribs)

Hi Guys...Am very happy to be officially Back after being block for some weeks!I am ready to come back to work!!!Hi Avnfx and the other new guys here!!EdwinCasadoBaez 20:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey edwin,
 * Welcome care to help with the San Juan, Puerto Rico article as well? BoriquaStar 04:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Avfnx

 * I do not appreciate things being signed for me that I didn't place on a page. you created spaces which I saw here      and then you said that i signed it     .    User:Avfnx Please do not do this again. BoriquaStar 03:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't feel like im getting censor here or that the admis are been unfair...Like i said before it seem like you wrote it. Maybe if don't edit other people comment i wouldn't have thought that. for the 5th or whatever time sorry. You remind me of other user used to be around here....mmmmmmmmm AvFnx 03:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't edit anyone's comment. I put an —Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs) tag on it. What are you talking about censor or admin unfair? No admin has commented on this. I'm letting people know your behavior is not to be supported for signing for someone else when they didn't write something. BoriquaStar 04:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * He is surely a sockpuppet!!Mr BoriquaStar must be a sock puppet!!!Is not long until he be Blocked again!Finally the Dominican Republic Article is coming to Shape!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I won't even begin to mention your behavior Just got off of block  and violates Assume good faith, as well as Civility. Has been noted to not be able to control his temper by an admin. His previous block was lengthened because of ban-evasions BoriquaStar 01:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

well i didn't mean not to be a good faith!But is that you have to change the ways you edit and accuse people here. You too were accused of not assuming Good Faith either. The fact is that we been plagued for a lot of Sock puppetry lately and the best way to end this is by requesting Check user to almost every body that looks suspicious. Is not that i don't want to Assume good faith is just that lately we been seeing users as suspiciousEdwinCasadoBaez 02:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[User:EdwinCasadoBaez|EdwinCasadoBaez]]''' Don't argue and let it go, you got work to do and let not waste on this. This only going get you block for no reason ''' AvFnx 04:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

La Trinitaria and Verifiability
Just to put to rest the continued attempts to paint Juan Pablo Duarte as a racist and La Trinitaria as white nationalists/white seperatists, let me address the source that contains the "proof" of this:
 * "Fathers of Racism" Jose-Rivera Molina. Taino Indep. Press. New York. 2006

Let's look at this for a moment. Most editors aren't going to have access to this book. It's by an independent printing company, isn't available on Amazon, and seems to have had a fairly small print run. As a result, it doesn't pass Wikipedia's requirements for what is a verifiable source.

I think we can all agree that this source, or the claims which the editor in question is asserting it proves, have no place in Wikipedia. If we have articles claiming that the Dominican Republic was the true inspiration for Birth of a Nation, we're just veering into conspiracy theory and other dodgy things.--Rosicrucian 00:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Remove it. BoriquaStar 04:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Good Sources?
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Cocks-Fight-Dominicans-Hispaniola/dp/080903719X BoriquaStar 03:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Cuisine
I'm going to add a new Cuisine section to the article!!! who says Yes or No????? EdwinCasadoBaez 02:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

YES AvFnx 03:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

nope, that's a seperate article. I've looked up PR, Cuba, Italy, China, and Australia. None of them has a cuisine portion. BoriquaStar 04:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

What if i add it in the Culture Section?What You think BoriquaStar???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by EdwinCasadoBaez (talk • contribs)

Go for it! Also make another article. Mangu, Chime, and the other good stuff. BoriquaStar 05:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I wrote this a couple of weeks ago in this article check it out:
 * "I think we should include a section which has native food off DR and different types of meal we eat like Rice and beans,Platano(Mofongo,Mangu,Tostones,Platanitos),Cassabe which is native from tainos i believe, Pastelon de Papa or Platano, Chimichurri(Dominican Fast food;Hamburger styled), we can add Pasteles en Hoja. Dominicans love Yuca(in General), and other things like Batata. Thats things we should include. Even thougth is not Only Dominicans that eat this we should add it as the style of food we eat."
 * This is what i will add about the Dominican Article in a few days!I would thank if anybody would care to help!EdwinCasadoBaez 18:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Here a thought....
Let make a project like this so we can write down the do list, have voting and assign task. what one one thinks AvFnx 09:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice idea...Actually their is already a project for the Dominican Republic.!But is completely Dead right now!Check it out. I think everybody should subscribe to the article and add themselves to the project to work in it a bit!i did some edits on it a few weeks ago but no body was interested!EdwinCasadoBaez 18:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Well lets Make It official!!!!:)

WikiProject Dominican Republic
We Invite everyone to join the Dominican Republic Wikiproject after months of being inactive. This will be the main portal for Dominican Republic Related articles!Please add your Username in the Participants sub-section of the article!EdwinCasadoBaez 18:51, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

There not many of us that are actively trying make this a better article. I say let let build a little rules...like votes when we can't agree. I know wiki got rules set up, but built our rules that we all sign and obey them. We all have the same goals make this the best article the way we can. It only a thought. AvFnx

New Ideas and Thougths

 * 1) Please Present them in a Delicate Manner and Do Not discuss(argue against) ideas Below this Line
 * 2) Remember our goal is to Make Dominican Republic an A Class Article so do not argue and be Constructive
 * 3) Please Write any idea for helping the Quality of the Dominican Article. It Can Be New Sections.Expanding a Section.Deleting A Section but do not go against any ideas written Here
 * 4) Please sign Comments and thougths with a four tildes and to put multiple : in front of comments so it can show differences between comment

Started By User:EdwinCasadoBaez

TOPICS

 * Religion:


 * Economy:


 * Crime:


 * Crime section should not be deleted (it exists in other articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Dominican_Republic#Crime_Section) but the crime page may be expanded. It is a relavent part of DR.


 * I removed from the Crime Section a Sentence involving DDP and Trinitarios two gangs based in New York. Even thougth they are true gangs because i seem them fight, they still not significant in the fact that they are not based in the Dominican Republic and for that reason it shouldnt be included in the Dominican Article. Some of the Members of those two NY based gangs are not Even Dominican born or Dominican Descent at all. Even thought the names are to be involved with DR it should not be included at all in this article.What should be included in the Crime in the Dominican Republic article is:


 * 1) Crime High Levels after the 2003 collapse of the Dominican Economy(from sources)
 * 2) Drug Traficking from Colombia to the United States
 * 3) Laws Prohibiting Alcohol sales in DR after Midnight to avoid late-night Crimes(this law those exist)
 * 4) Assaults incrementing in some Touristic zones.


 * Please Comment in this ideas in the Botton Section!EdwinCasadoBaez 00:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to move for the inclusion of the DDP and Trinitarios in the article because they aren't just in new york. This gang is in 13 states in the united states and is the largest gang in spain. . They may have included other nationalities, but they were started by dominicans and are 90% dominican. The trinitarios were also named after the same trinitarios who founded DR. 64.131.205.111 04:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Government:


 * History:
 * I have brought this section into chronological order. I cant think of any objections to this. I also have removed claims clearly not covered by the source given. I would like to ask anyone reinstating them to do so only with supporting sources. I would like to state that I also support the sourced changes by Dominican. VirtualDelight 09:45, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Why not have a selection on the Trinitarios, and the expanding it to article. Avfnx 14:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Demographics:


 * Transportation:


 * I Believe the Dominican Republic article should have a small overview about the Santiago light rail and the Santo Domingo Metro in the Transportation Section!!We should add about the National designated Highway/Freeway lines Named DR-1,DR-2,DR-3,DR-4,and DR-5 that sorround the countryEdwinCasadoBaez 07:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Culture:

I think we should include a section which has native food off DR and different types of meal we eat like Rice and beans,Platano(Mofongo,Mangu,Tostones,Platanitos),Cassabe which is native from tainos i believe, Pastelon de Papa or Platano, Chimichurri(Dominican Fast food;Hamburger styled), we can add Pasteles en Hoja. Dominicans love Yuca(in General), and other things like Batata. Thats things we should include. Even thougth is not Only Dominicans that eat this we should add it as the style of food we eat. Who says yes or No for Addition of this to the article?Please AnswerEdwinCasadoBaez 04:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that's a good idea. A cuisine sub-section is fine by me. Eventually we can expand enough so as to create another article. We can extract ideas from the Cuban cuisine and Puerto Rican cuisine articles and references. Dominican 07:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Music:
 * I found a very good reference on the origins of Merengue. I can write a few paragraphs to add to the front page and maybe add a few interesting comments on the actual page. The book I'm talking about is Antes de que te vayas, written by Rafael Chaljub Mejía and it's available online at Grupo León Jimenes webpage here . Dominican 17:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The rest of the comments and critics are on the "Music reference" section.


 * Extras:

CRITICS ABOUT OPINIONS PLACE THAT WERE PLACED ABOVE
 * 1) Here You Can Place your Opinions About the Thoughts Of the Comments Above.
 * 2) Here You Can Show You Opinion of the comments.
 * 3) Please Be Moderate when showing your critics so we dont start Another Edit War#When Writing Your Critics Placed Four Tildes at the end of your message and a : in the beggining of your message so it can be organized and read proprerly

WRITE BELOW THIS SENTENCE!

Emigration vs. Crime sections
To clarify, some items are in the Emigration section rather than the Crime section because they are criminal activities abroad, while the Crime section is for domestic crime.--Rosicrucian 21:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I find it to be of quite undue wight that this section is nearly entirely about crime by one criminal and a minor street gang. For comparison we could take a look at the article Dominican American. I think this section could be a short overview from this article and the Dominican illegal immigration to Puerto Rico article. VirtualDelight 21:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Possibly. Moving them to the Emigration section was largely a compromise since there seemed to be a fair bit of support for inclusion, and they kept getting inserted into the Crime section. Of course, in light of recent sockpuppets, the appearance of consensus for inclusion might have been false.--Rosicrucian 21:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It may be even a systemic bias of Wikipedia to focus on such easily accessible and "in the news" information. But as this is the country overview article about the Dominican Republic I doubt that this particular criminal needs to be named in the article. But e.g. I do think that the fact about the Dominican Republic to serve as a transportation hub for cocaine smuggle into the United States is an information important enough to be in the article. VirtualDelight 22:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I have been discussing here.BoriquaStar (who has been supporting inclusion of this information and advocating consensus on this issue recently) has been suspended indefinitely for Sock puppetry (Requests for checkuser/Case/64.131.205.111) Apparently other sockpuppets of 64.131.205.111 were doing the same.--Rafelito 02:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * the emigration section is part of demographics, yet it discusses a crime related matter rather than going through or skimming emigration, whoever wrote this used unfairness in tone, and it is clearly baised. Adreamtonight 08:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Parsley Massacre
I have undone this change to the description of the Parsley massacre in the  subsection 1930 to 1980 by Caonabo because I think this changes were against the sources in the article and against consensus on this talk page. Also the change from "Parsley Massacre" to "Parsley Massacre by Haitiens" and from "massacre" to "welfare" in one case seem to me to be a POV edit not supported by any of the sources in the article. VirtualDelight 14:51, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The passage made next to no sense with those edits in place, so I support the revert.--Rosicrucian 14:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree and support the revert but that only shows that there extreme point, we need to better observe and be more active on this. The consensus of the past really don't count there were lot of sock poppet here. But the we got work with what we have and improve it. AvFnx 15:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)