Talk:Dominion of Trinidad and Tobago

"Commonwealth realm"
I'm puzzled by this title. I can't say I've ever seen it used anywhere. As far as I know, from 1962-1976 it was simply "Trinidad and Tobago", not "the commonwealth realm of Trinidad and Tobago". Seems like a fictitious entity to me... Guettarda (talk) 17:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

-Well; you're quite right to say that its official name was just 'Trinidad and Tobago' (as I think you'll find is stated in the article); but 'commonwealth realm' is a non-official term used for the members of the commonwealth that have the Queen of the United Kingdom as their Queen (that is, quite separate from her role as Queen of the United Kingdom-in Canada, she is Queen of Canada, in New Zealand, she is Queen of New Zealand. Legally, it is just a coincidence that the same person happens to be Queen of all the different realms.) -Similarly, Ghana was a commonwealth realm 1957-1960, but its official name was only ever 'Ghana'. So no; it was not fictitious. The term 'commonwealth realm' is a non-official term, not an official designation of a state. That is why it is in brackets after the (official) name of the country. Nowadays, Trinidad and Tobago is a republic, so it makes sense to have an article separate from the present article, just like; for example, we have a page about the 'Kingdom of Romania' even though Romania is now a Republic.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 02:10, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * And where was this term in "non-official" usage? It doesn't have to be official, it just has to be common. Please see WP:COMMONNAME. I've never seen the name used unofficially. Guettarda (talk) 06:03, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that this is supposedly a "former country"...amending your constitution and your titular head of state does not make an entity a "former country". Guettarda (talk) 06:10, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

"where was this term in "non-official" usage?" - the term is used to refer to counties that are members of the commonwealth and have the Queen as Head of State, as their Queen. See: http://www.royal.gov.uk/monarchandcommonwealth/queenandcommonwealth/whatisacommonwealthrealm.aspx on the Official Website of the British monarchy. So; it's not a 'made up name' as you put it, even if it is not used in the official nomenclature of the state in question.

As for "amending your constitution and your titular head of state does not make an entity a "former country"-we've had pages on the Union of South Africa (the predecessor to today's Republic of South Africa) for many years now, and exactly the same was the case with South Africa. We also have had a page for when Ceylon was a commonwealth monarchy from 1948-1972, before it became the Republic of Sri Lanka. Again, the same circumstances.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 20:27, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

-also; we have an entire extensively referenced page dedicated to the subject 'Commonwealth Realms' here on Wikipedia.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 20:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Trinidad and Tobago (commonwealth realm)
(Moved from my talk page. Guettarda (talk) 20:46, 9 March 2012 (UTC)) Greetings Guettarda. in response to your questions on my article:

"where was this term in "non-official" usage?" - the term is used to refer to counties that are members of the commonwealth and have the Queen as Head of State, as their Queen. See: http://www.royal.gov.uk/monarchandcommonwealth/queenandcommonwealth/whatisacommonwealthrealm.aspx on the official website of the British monarchy. So; it's not a 'made up name' as you put it, even if it is not used in the official nomenclature of the commonwealth realm in question. Today, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Tuvalu, the Solomon Islands, St. Kitts & Nevis, Belize, St. Lucia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Jamaica, Grenada, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, and the Bahamas. Countries that were formerly commonwealth realms (or dominions) but are now republics are South Africa, Ghana, the Irish Free State, India, Pakistan, Ceylon (now Sri Lanka), Tanganyika (now in Tanzania), Sierra Leone, Guyana, Fiji, the Gambia, Nigeria, Uganda, Malta, Malawi, Mauritius, Newfoundland, and of course Trinidad and Tobago.

As for "amending your constitution and your titular head of state does not make an entity a "former country"-we've had pages on the Union of South Africa (the predecessor to today's Republic of South Africa) for many years now, and exactly the same was the case with South Africa. We also have had a page for when Ceylon was a commonwealth monarchy from 1948-1972, before it became the Republic of Sri Lanka. Again, the same circumstances.

You could also say the same about countries like Nepal that have abolished their monarchy by constitutional amendment and removed their 'titular head of state'-Nepal for example. We have pages about the Kingdom, and the Republic of Nepal. Same country, different constitutional arrangement. No different in theory to Trinidad and Tobago. Both were monarchies, but are now republics. The same could be said for countless articles. We have a page for the present-day republic of Brazil, we have a page for the Empire of Brazil. We have a page for France's various republics, empires and the Kingdom. We have a page for the Kingdom of Italy, we have a page for today's Italian Republic, we have a page for the Italian Kingdom that existed before 1946, and so ad infinitum. I don't see how Trinidad and Tobago is any different. Granted, I didn't get round to referencing it, but deleting it out-right, citing that the term is 'made up' (when it isn't) is a bit off, if you don't mind me saying.

-also; we have an extensively referenced page dedicated to the subject 'Commonwealth Realms' here on Wikipedia. Please read it and all the references that appertain to it. I believe you will find the term 'commonwealth realm' is a term used widely.

With the greatest of respect,JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 11:04, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * As a WP:TPS, I don't understand your point. The country of Trinidad and Tobago didn't suddenly become a different country once it became a republic instead of a Commwealth realm.  It was never called "Trinidad and Tobago, the Commonwealth Realm".  A change of constitutional structure, or indeed a rename of the same chunk of land does not require a new titled article.  It would be a WP:FORK of the original article on the country.  Should Canada ever become a republic, there should and would never be an article called Canada (Commwealth realm) that refers simply to the pre-history of Canada up until an Order in Council.  That would, indeed, be ridiculous.  By that logic, we should have Canada (series of Aboriginal settlements), Canada (paleo-indian settlements) - and Trinidad and Tobago (Spanish colony), Tobago (Courland settlement) ... which again, merely forks from the intent of an encyclopedia, which is the give the HISTORY of the main, current title. ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 11:45, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Yep, I'm familiar with THAT PAGE. It was, in fact, one of the things that helped convince me that the terminology was inappropriate. It's a term that describes the relationship of the monarchy with independent countries that retain the Queen as head of state after independence. But it does not support usage of the term, which is what we need per WP:COMMONNAME. Thus name like "Trinidad and Tobago (Commonwealth realm)" appears to be WP:SYNTH. But what's far more important is the directionality of the relationship. That's a Queen → country descriptor, that's a term that describes how the monarchy sees its relationship to these countries. The appropriate relationship is country → Queen. The role of the monarch is narrowly circumscribed. In the UK, the monarch retains certain powers, either legally or traditionally. That's not the case here - the powers (if that isn't too strong a word) held by the monarch are specifically divested to her. (This might be a bit different in former Dominions like Canada or Australia, where independence came gradually). To give a specific example - after the American invasion of Grenada, Sir Paul Scoon claimed that he had invited them in his position as Governor General. Whether that's actually true or not, it was legally his call to make; it could never had been the Queen's.
 * we've had pages on the Union of South Africa ... We also have had a page for ... Ceylon ... before it became the Republic of Sri Lanka. (emphasis added) - It's never a good idea to use Wikipedia as a source. Asserting that these are "former countries" because we have pages in Wikipedia that say so...no, that just doesn't work. We need sources. Please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.
 * As for usage of "Commonwealth realm" in Wikipedia - yes, this incident makes me doubt whether it's appropriate to use it to describe some property of a country, rather than the Queen's relationship to (various countries). I suspect that most of the usage is the kind of blatant WP:SYNTH that this one was.
 * Sure, we could create an article about covers the window in TT history between 1962 and 1976...as soon as there's enough content to justify a WP:SPINOFF from History of Trinidad and Tobago. It'd be thrilled if someone would clean up and expand that article. But the article you created had no new content, and it was unsourced. So apart from the naming issues, there's no need for the article. Guettarda (talk) 15:37, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

-Hang on; I'm not asserting its a 'former country' any more than I'm asserting that, say; the Weimar Republic was any more a different country than Nazi Germany. I also have sources; I just didn't get round to inserting them in the article.

It must also be remembered that each of the countries that retained the British monarch as head of state (apart from New Zealand) have had constitutions that set out exactly what the powers of the monarch (and the Governor General) were/are.

I'd be more than happy to create an article called something like 'Trinidad and Tobago (1962-1976)'; and I'm sure I'd be able to find enough sources to justify it too.

It's not so much that I'm trying to use wikipedia articles as sources, but are you seriously arguing, for example, that we get rid of pages like 'Kingdom of France' or 'Empire of France/Napoleonic Empire'; because, although constitutionally different, they're all the same country, just because it happens to be a republic now, and not a Kingdom or Empire? (i.e. France.) (talk) 16:50, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ugh. The fact that T&T was a Commonwealth country is not anywhere close to being as notable as the Kingdon of France was.  Major differences.  What longlasting influences did T&T the Commonwealth realm provide to the world as a whole, compared to the longlasting influences of the Napoleonic Empire? ( talk→   BWilkins   ←track ) 17:11, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not asserting its a 'former country' any more than I'm asserting that, say; the Weimar Republic was any more a different country than Nazi Germany - diff of an edit by you placing it in a "former country" cat.
 * It must also be remembered that each of the countries that retained the British monarch as head of state (apart from New Zealand) have had constitutions that set out exactly what the powers of the monarch (and the Governor General) were/are - Yep, which is what I said. Which is why the defining relationship is "country → Queen", not "Queen → country". So it doesn't matter what the monarchy uses to describe its relationship with these countries, its the way the countries describe themselves.
 * I'd be more than happy to create an article called something like 'Trinidad and Tobago (1962-1976)'; and I'm sure I'd be able to find enough sources to justify it too - as I said, feel free WP:SPINOFF such an article from History of Trinidad and Tobago...but please don't go around creating articles for which there isn't enough content.


 * It's not so much that I'm trying to use wikipedia articles as sources - really? Then what was your argument? I quoted your own words there.
 * are you seriously arguing...that we get rid of pages like 'Kingdom of France' or 'Empire of France/Napoleonic Empire'; because, although constitutionally different, they're all the same country - I never said anything of the sort. Please don't misrepresent what I said. I'm saying that "Trinidad and Tobago (Commonwealth realm)" appears to be an entity of your own creation. Between 1962 and 1976 there was a country called Trinidad and Tobago which had the Queen as its head of state. Obviously. I was born there. And while it may have fit the definition of a "commonwealth realm" use on www.royal.gov.uk, that isn't evidence that the term was ever used. WP:COMMONNAME argues that we should use the most common name or, since RoTT is the primary topic for TT, an appropriate disambiguation term. For example, you'd never use Trinidad and Tobago (South American country), despite the fact that (a) various Wikipedia articles say it's SAmerican, and (b) you could probably find real sources that say so as well. And why not? Because it's never discussed like that. It is, of course, also debatable whether it's wise to create such an article. After all, why not create a sequence Trinidad (Amerindian polities)→Trinidad (Viceroyalty of Peru)→Trinidad (New Kingdom of Granada)→Trinidad (Viceroyalty of New Granada)→Trinidad (British-occupied territory)→Trinidad (Crown colony)→Trinidad and Tobago (Crown colony)→Trinidad and Tobago (legislative colony)→Trinidad and Tobago (West Indies Federation)→Trinidad and Tobago (independent state)→Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. Together with, of course, a MUCH longer sequence for Tobago which changed hands what - 16 times - and existed as both a state with its own House of Assembly and, as a Crown Colony. And should we separate the first Courlander colony from the second? It become absurd to slice things so finely . Guettarda (talk) 17:29, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * One more important point - neither independence nor becoming a republic triggered any change in government. Eric Williams was PM before independence, he was PM after independence. He was PM before TT became a republic, he was still PM the day after, as was he died, almost 5 years later. The same laws were in place. I continued to use my first passport, issued in 1975 or early 1976, into the 1980s. Guettarda (talk) 17:47, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Hoax?
I still can't find any references that support the existence of something that was commonly know as the "Commonwealth realm" of Trinidad and Tobago. Worse yet, a "former country" by that name. At the very least we need reliable sources that attest to that usage....source, not WP:SYNTH. Guettarda (talk) 17:02, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Obviously, as I said above, TT had the monarch as head of state from 1962-1976. That I'm not disputing. But I can't find any source that attests to contemporary usage of the term. Nor can I find any source that attests to modern usage (ie, "Trinidad and Tobago was a Commonwealth realm") outside of Wikipedia and mirrors. Seems to me that an entity that someone made up in Wikipedia...fits the definition of a hoax. Guettarda (talk) 17:07, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

-Oh; for heaven's sake 'Guettarda'; I can understand you being a bit miffed that another user has 'restored' the article (not by myself I hasten to add, although I do agree with the reasons given for doing so) but describing this as a 'hoax' is just...well, odd, quite frankly.

Again; its not been 'made up' if its being used on the official website of the British monarchy: do you think they're in on this Wikipedia 'hoax' as well? Don't be ridiculous. Its there in black and white. How on earth is that website not a source? Trinidad and Tobago 1962-1976 fits all the criteria that the countries in the list on the webpage have. I didn't invent the term and no-one else on wikipedia did.

The Queen's title in the UK is:

'Elizabeth the Second, By the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom and her other realms and territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth'

So, whereas no-one refers to Canada as 'the commonwealth realm of Canada' ; it most certainly is one of the Queen's realms and it is in the commonwealth -Hence; 'Commonwealth Realm'-the same applies for Trinidad and Tobago 1962-1976 as applies to Canada today. Whilst no-one would neccesarily have described it as such, it unquestionably was one of the Queens realms. It fits all the characteristics of a commonwealth realm (i.e.; had the Queen of the UK as it's Queen, was a member of the Commonwealth) therefore; that was exactly what it was.
 * The word 'realm' in the monarch's title refers to the other countries that she is Queen of, which after 1952 replaced the words 'and of her dominions beyond the seas' (a dominion was basically what the commonwealth realms developed out of-an autonomous country within the British Empire-some of the dominions included Canada and New Zealand, both of which are now commonwealth realms.) Both the dominions and the realms had/have governor-generals who represnet the monarch in their role as the monarch of that particular country.

Essentially, you're nit-picking at semantics.


 * Each state that has or had the Queen as its Queen (with the exception of Pakistan) enacted a Royal Titles Act, enacted by the government of the country in question as regards the title of the monarch as regards the country in question. In each title adopted by each state; they all used the words 'of her other realms and territories' and 'Head of the Commonwealth'

In Trinidad and Tobago; the title adopted and used by the Trinidadian government was as follows:


 * 'Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Trinidad and Tobago and her other realms and territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth'

Trinidad and Tobago has been an independent state only since 1962. We can all agree on that. From 1962 to 1976; its official name was simply 'Trinidad and Tobago'; with no qualifier like 'Commonwealth of' or 'State of' in front of it. After 1976, the country's name becomes 'Republic of Trinidad and Tobago'

Look at this website; which is extensively sourced (showing a list of sources as well)-here is the section regarding Trinidad and Tobago: http://www.archontology.org/nations/trinidad/. Here is the section regarding the name of the state: http://www.archontology.org/nations/trinidad/01_1962_td_polity.php -here is the section as regards the style of the monarch; including the term realm. -Lastly; here is the section regarding the realm: http://www.archontology.org/nations/uk/01_realms.php

Read the section:

"Following the enactment of the British North America Act, 1867, uniting the provinces of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, into a dominion, the British monarchs acquired the status of sovereign and subsequently, Head of State, in a number of new realms, which gradually evolved into independent states (realms) starting from the passing of the Statute of Westminster (12 Dec 1931). The terms of offices held with respect to dominions and realms are reflected chronologically in the following record"

If some other term other than 'commonwealth realm' is more acceptable; then great, I'll change it to that.

Also; the 'former countries' category was something else that I put in because I'd basically used a similar template to create the pages of the commonwealth realms (although there were quite a few pages that already existed) -I'm not and have never viewed any of the commonwealth realms as different countries from their republic counterparts, so I have no qualms about removing that category, as it was put in there by error in the first place.

I really cannot understand also why you are ignoring the official website of the royal family either (especially beaing in minds its an 'official' source); 'realm' is basically a term that replaced 'dominion' because 'dominion' was no longer politically correct.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 01:18, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

So, OK, this looks more like WP:SYNTH than a deliberate hoax. But based on what you're saying here I get the impression that almost all usage of "Commonwealth realm" is WP:SYNTH. If you created them all, please do the decent thing, tag the whole series of "Commonwealth realm" articles as CSD G7s. Guettarda (talk) 01:49, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Again; its not been 'made up' if its being used on the official website of the British monarchy - it isn't, as far as I can tell.
 * So, whereas no-one refers to Canada as 'the commonwealth realm of Canada' ; it most certainly is one of the Queen's realms and it is in the commonwealth -Hence; 'Commonwealth Realm - I've linked to WP:SYNTH three times on this page. That is precisely the sort of thing that policy forbids'. If no one refers to it by that name, we cannot. That's basic policy.
 * Whilst no-one would neccesarily have described it as such, it unquestionably was one of the Queens realms - then, per policy, we cannot refer to it like that.
 * Look at this website - archontology.org is a reliable source on what basis? I can find nothing in the [RS/N archives
 * -here is the section as regards the style of the monarch; including the term realm - yes, "realm", not commonwealth realm, so it's utterly irrelevant.
 *  the British monarchs acquired the status of sovereign and subsequently, Head of State, in a number of new realms, which gradually evolved into independent states (realms) starting from the passing of the Statute of Westminster (12 Dec 1931). The terms of offices held with respect to dominions and realms are reflected chronologically in the following record - again, it neither uses "Commonwealth realm", much less apply that term to Trinidad and Tobago. So this is also irrelevant (and even if it wasn't, I still don't know why that would be a reliable source).

-No; I didn't create them all. Again; it's on the official page of the British Royal family. (again; why on earth are you ignoring this webpage?)So; it's not WP:SYNTH, and I am certainly not going to tag the articles for speedy deletion. If you would prefer 'Trinidad and Tobago (realm)' or 'Trinidad and Tobago (1962-1976)' -as it is indisputable that Trinidad and Tobago was a 'realm' 1962-1976, that would be fine, or any other title for that matter. It has been my intention anyway to flesh out the other realm articles so they are fully fit for inclusion on wikipedia anyway. At any rate; its not so much the term 'commonwealth realm', it is more importantly the term 'realm' in relation to the commonwealth; about which it is more than possible to find sources after 1953.

Oh; and by the way:


 * "its being used on the official website of the British monarchy - it isn't, as far as I can tell."-Yes''; it is! -and I quote: (http://www.royal.gov.uk/monarchandcommonwealth/queenandcommonwealth/whatisacommonwealthrealm.aspx)

"What is a Commonwealth Realm?" "A Commonwealth Realm is a country which has The Queen as its Monarch."

"There are 15 Commonwealth Realms in addition to the UK: Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Jamaica, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, Papua New Guinea, St Christopher and Nevis, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Tuvalu, Barbados, Grenada, Solomon Islands, St Lucia and The Bahamas."

and on the drop-down menu "choose your Commonwealth Realm"

JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 03:01, 14 March 2012 (UTC) JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 03:01, 14 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Again; it's on the official page of the British Royal family. (again; why on earth are you ignoring this webpage?) - I'm not ignoring it, as I explained, it doesn't support the usage.
 * So; it's not WP:SYNTH - I clearly explained why it's SYNTH. Saying "nuh-huh" is not a valid argument.
 * If you would prefer 'Trinidad and Tobago (realm)' or 'Trinidad and Tobago (1962-1976)'...that would be fine, - that's an entirely separate issue.
 *  It has been my intention anyway to flesh out the other realm articles so they are fully fit for inclusion on wikipedia anyway - again, beside the point, although the normal thing to do is to spin daughter articles out after, and to provide links from the main page. Anyway, you haven't addressed the concerns I raised previously - do you plan to create the following articles: Trinidad (Amerindian polities), Trinidad (Viceroyalty of Peru), Trinidad (New Kingdom of Granada), Trinidad (Viceroyalty of New Granada), Trinidad (British-occupied territory), Trinidad (Crown colony), Trinidad and Tobago (Crown colony), Trinidad and Tobago (legislative colony), Trinidad and Tobago (West Indies Federation) andRepublic of Trinidad and Tobago? All but one of these lasted longer than this entity.
 * There are 15 Commonwealth Realms in addition to the UK: Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Jamaica, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, Papua New Guinea, St Christopher and Nevis, St Vincent and the Grenadines, Tuvalu, Barbados, Grenada, Solomon Islands, St Lucia and The Bahamas."  - nowhere does that quote say that quote say anything about Trinidad and Tobago. Your quote supports exactly what I said. Nowhere does it refer to a "Commonwealth realm" by the name of Trinidad and Tobago. Guettarda (talk) 14:58, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * In no way, shape or form could this article be an actual hoax. Even if the name is incorrect, which I make no judgement on... a hoax requires one to intentionally lie and invent something entirely false with the intent of fooling other people.  A simple mistake in regards to titling an article of using the wrong name for an otherwise accurate article doesn't remotely meet those standards. --    Alyas Grey   : talk 08:25, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It's not a matter of a "wrong title". It's either accidentally misleading (due to WP:SYNTH) or intentionally. And since the undid the redirect after the issue of WP:SYNTH was raised, the assumption that s/he is ignorant of WP:SYNTH is unsustainable. And the alleged source does not support the usage. It's an outright false claim. So it looks like a hoax. Guettarda (talk) 14:42, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

"it looks like a hoax"-and I suppose the British royal family is in on this hoax? (or at least, the people running the website are) -do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?!?

"the alleged source does not support the usage" -why? Again, T&T fits the criteria: "A commonwealth realm is a country that has the Queen as its monarch."

-oh; by the way; I found the following publications that have used the term "commonwealth realm":

-"University of British Colombia legal notes, volume 2", page 172 (year:1962):

http://books.google.ca/books?id=27FEAQAAIAAJ&q=commonwealth+realm&dq=commonwealth+realm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=o1tiT4DwJea00QW725iKCA&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCA

'Each of the commonwealth realms has superimposed on it a national citizenship'

-The CIA World Factbook 2012 describes each of the countries described on the British Monarchy website as 'Commonwealth realms'; for example, the Bahamas:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=o4lyrrsX0-wC&pg=PT302&dq=commonwealth+realm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OlxiT-q0HaK20QWtn_GGCA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=commonwealth%20realm&f=false

"Government type: constitutional parliamentary democracy and a Commonwealth realm"

-The Encyclopedia of Middle East Wars: The United States in the Persian Gulf, Afghanistan and Iraq Conflicts, page 171 (2010):

http://books.google.ca/books?id=U05OvsOPeKMC&pg=PA171&dq=commonwealth+realms&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1mFiT6aIHsnC0QWvufm6CA&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCDgK#

"Although it remains a commonwealth realm with strong ties to Great Britain"

The World Factbook: (regarding New Zealand):

http://books.google.ca/books?id=w6UgzYKpcZIC&pg=PT3343&dq=commonwealth+realm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BF1iT4--BqWe0QX09uyOCA&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBjgK

"Government type: parliamentary democracy and a Commonwealth realm"

Encyclopedia of world constitutions: (Gabon to Norway): Volume 2 - Page 769:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=M3A-xgf1yM4C&pg=PA769&dq=commonwealth+realm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I15iT4TwFoSu8QPttLivCA&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=commonwealth%20realm&f=false

"The Federation of Saint Christopher and Nevis is an independent Commonwealth realm"

"Commonwealth Realm" by Frederic P Miller, Agnes F Vandome, John McBrewster:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=JFbaQgAACAAJ&dq=commonwealth+realms&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nl5iT_KbN-Oj0QWdr8SQCA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ

"A Commonwealth realm is a sovereign state within the Commonwealth of Nations that has Elizabeth II as its monarch"

-Commonwealth and Colonial Law, by Sir Kenneth Roberts-Wray, 1966 (page 16):

http://books.google.ca/books?id=2WOuAAAAIAAJ&q=commonwealth+realms&dq=commonwealth+realms&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nl5iT_KbN-Oj0QWdr8SQCA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCA

"Commonwealth State," even with a definition, is unsuitable, since there are States in the Commonwealth of Australia and in Malaysia, and the State of Brunei is not a Member of the Commonwealth. "Commonwealth Realms" would not be ..."

The New Zealand law journal: NZLJ.: Volume 51; Volume 51 (1976), page 31:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=CtYxAQAAIAAJ&q=commonwealth+realms&dq=commonwealth+realms&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yl9iT-XlCuLB0QW7v42XCw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAjgK

"The view that the Commonwealth Realms are "kingdoms in their own right" is..." Prince William and Kate, a Royal Romance, 2011: (page 12):

http://books.google.ca/books?id=u7hQAAZqQYYC&pg=PA12&dq=commonwealth+realms&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yl9iT-XlCuLB0QW7v42XCw&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=commonwealth%20realms&f=false

"The ruling monarch (king or queen) is the formal head of state for sixteen nations known as the Commonwealth Realms. These include the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and others"

Kings and Queens of England, 2007:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=uJ-lNQG45IAC&pg=PT187&dq=commonwealth+realms&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nWBiT9bQNMGn0QW41OS6CA&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=commonwealth%20realms&f=false"The year saw a large tour of the Commonwealth Realms"

Chases Calendar of Events, 2012 Edition - Page 60:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=MPIyHo-BWPkC&pg=PA60&dq=commonwealth+realms&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D2FiT7qSD4mx0QWeicW4CA&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=commonwealth%20realms&f=false

"2012: The United Kingdom and Commonwealth realms celebrate 60 years of Queen Elizabeth II's reign with a four-day holiday weekend"

Solomon Islands Business and Investment Opportunities Yearbook - Page 8:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=biCkUeIoKjsC&pg=PA8&dq=commonwealth+realm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dGJiT4THI4Km0QXRwYnACA&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=commonwealth%20realm&f=false "The country remains a Commonwealth Realm"

-note that several of the books I have cited refer to the term 'commonwealth realm' and are from the years between 1962 and 1976, namely 1962, 1966 and 1976. Not a made-up term. The above sources support both present-day use of the tem 'commonwealth realm' and of use of the term whilst Trinidad and Tobago was a commonwealth realm.

I suppose the authors of the above books must be in on this 'hoax' too; even though some of them are dead.

"do you plan to create the following articles"-nope; because none of them are independent countries; whereas Trinidad and Tobago 1962-1976 was.

"I clearly explained why it's SYNTH"-No; you gave an incorrect statement re. the commonwealth realm's relationship to the monarch to justify not accepting it as a source.The source is perfectly valid, as are all the above sources.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 21:49, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

-Your silence is beyond deafening; 'Guettarda'.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 00:59, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 6 December 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by page mover) Sky  Warrior  17:22, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Trinidad and Tobago (Commonwealth realm) → Dominion of Trinidad and Tobago – As other editors have said in the long discussions above, the title of this page "Trinidad and Tobago (Commonwealth realm)" cannot be found in any reliable source. DrKay (talk) 21:36, 6 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Support. Sources for "Dominion of Trinidad and Tobago" include:
 * International Extradition: United States Law and Practice (2014) by M. Cherif Bassiouni (p. 103), quoting the High Court of Justice of Trinidad and Tobago: " the [Extradition] Act qualified as one of the existing laws of the Colony of Trinidad and Tobago immediately before the commencement of [the 1962 Act]. It was consequently preserved by the provisions of that section as part of the law of the independent Dominion of Trinidad and Tobago". See also: U.S.A. ex rel. Lolita SAROOP v. Jesus A. GARCIA. Lolita Saroop, Appellant..
 * Class Alliances and the Liberal Authoritarian State (1998) by F. S. J. Ledgister: "On 31 August 1962, four weeks after Jamaica, the Dominion of Trinidad and Tobago took full responsibility for its own affairs."
 * "Constitutional Law - Dominion of Trinidad and Tobago" at JustCite
 * "BU prof wins mini-Oscar for film of ethnic rituals", BU Bridge: Boston University Community's Weekly Newspaper, Vol. II, No. 28, 26 March 1999 by Hope Green: "In the 1980s, his research on the Indian diaspora took him to Trinidad -- the larger of two Caribbean islands composing the British dominion of Trinidad and Tobago." (Yes, I am aware that it wasn't a dominion by the 1980s.) DrKay (talk) 21:36, 6 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Support current name is really an uncommon or made up. Lorstaking (talk) 04:09, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * While I'd prefer a merge to Trinidad and Tobago (since this article has almost no non-trivial content) if it's going to be preserved, I'd favour Trinidad and Tobago (something) rather than Dominion of Trinidad and Tobago, since that was never the legal name of the country.
 * Note that neither the Trinidad and Tobago Independence Act nor the Trinidad and Tobago Constitutional Order use the term "dominion" (except in reference to Dominions under the Statute of Westminster, as things external to Trinidad and Tobago).
 * The Report of the Trinidad and Tobago Independence Conference similarly does not use the term Dominion
 * A Google search for this precise phrase turns up five hits other than this page.
 * It's worth noting that the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago redirects to Trinidad and Tobago, while the Crown Colony of Trinidad and Tobago redirects to the History of Trinidad and Tobago. Unlike at independence, there was complete continuity between pre-Republican TT and the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. Guettarda (talk) 06:09, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Another option is to disambiguate by date: Trinidad and Tobago (1962–1976), as is done for republics, e.g. Republic of Haiti (1859–1957), Republic of Cuba (1902–1959), Republic of China (1912–1949), and other polities were there is continuity between different time periods. DrKay (talk) 08:56, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Support, although I do take issue with the rationale. We don't need attestation in sources of the full title Trinidad and Tobago (Commonwealth realm). We just need attestation of Trinidad and Tobago and of Commonwealth realm (and that they mean what we think), and putting them together like that is then a Wikipedia convention. But we prefer natural disambiguation, so this move is justified on other grounds. Andrewa (talk) 23:38, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * There was a much longer discussion in the talk page sections above this one, where sources that discuss Trinidad and Tobago as a Commonwealth realm were requested. None were ever provided. So it isn't just that the article title is not used anywhere else: it is original research by synthesis because it takes two topics (Trinidad and Commonwealth realm) and merges them in a way that no source does. DrKay (talk) 06:40, 14 December 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.