Talk:Don Carlos Gereda y de Borbon

"Honors"
Under the section "Honors", it states "Don Carlos has received several honours...", and then goes on to list 8 different "honors". However, five of those 8 seem to be fantasy orders (or at least thoroughly self-styled), such as "Grand Cross with Collar of the Emblem of the Ancient Cavalry & Devotion of St Michael the Miraculous (Georgia)". A Google search turns up just 5 hits for "the Emblem of the Ancient Cavalry & Devotion of St Michael the Miraculous", all of which point back to this wiki. My guess: this "order" was made up. If an "honor" isn't recognized as legitimate, it has no place being cited here (not that any citations or references were even provided). For example, Don Carlos supposedly was given the "Grand Cordon of the Dragon of Annam (Vietnam)". However, the wiki that claim links to states that the "Dragon of Annam" ceased to be awarded in 1945. Considering that Don Carlos wasn't even born until 1947, it would've been impossible for him to have been "honored" with it while it existed. For another example, he was supposedly "honored" with the "Order of the Eagle of Georgia and the Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus Christ". Again, this "order" is long-extinct. It was supposedly "revived" by Irakli Bagration of Mukhrani in 1939, but since his family's royal dynasty was deposed in 1801 (138 years earlier!), he could hardly be a valid fons honorum; nor could the current pretender, David Bagration of Mukhrani, have any more legitimacy as a fons honorum. This list is pure cruft and needs to be pruned out. I'll give editors a few weeks to do a sympathetic job before I come back to remove any remaining nonsense. Bricology (talk) 08:24, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Since no one has attempted to defend the inclusion of these claimed honors, and since all of them are "fantasy orders", lacking any fons honorum, I have removed the "Honors" section. Bricology (talk) 19:49, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Please read World Orders of Knighthood about these orders. Even if they are self-styled, it is not against rules of WP, if they are included.--Yopie (talk) 20:30, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Seriously, Yopie? "Read 'World Orders of Knighthood'?"  Is that what passes for debate in your world? -telling someone to read a book?  Sorry, but I'm not convinced.  The fact is that these "honors" are not "honors", because they don't exist .  To wit: the "Dragon of Annam" ceased to be awarded in 1945, two years before Don Carlos was born.  According to Dragon_of_Annam, "The Order of the Dragon of Annam was created on March 14, 1886 in the ancient Vietnamese city of Huế, by Emperor Đồng Khánh of the Imperial House of Annam, upon the 'recommendation' of the President of France as a jointly awarded French colonial order.  The Order was designed as a reward for services to the state, the French colonial government, or the emperor.  When French colonial rule over Indochina ended (in 1945), the Order of the Dragon of Annam was abolished and replaced by the National Order of Vietnam".  You can't include "honors" that don't exist.  The onus is on you to prove they exist before including them; it's not on others to disprove them after the fact, or "go read a book".  Can you prove that these orders exist, and they satisfy WP:NOTABLE, and they were being disbursed during Don Carlos' life?  If so, by all means -- go ahead.  Otherwise, they'll have to go.  That's WP:VERIFY for you. Bricology (talk) 07:21, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

full clean-up needed
There are some troubling elements of this article that need to be addressed. 1. What exactly is it that makes Mr. Gereda meet WP:NOTABLE? 2. Being a 5th great-grandson of a king who last reigned in 1819 does not in itself make one notable. There are probably a thousand or more 8th-generation descendents of King Carlos IV who are alive today. 3. Mr. Gereda is described as the "49th Grand Master of the Military and Hospitaller Order of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem (Malta branch)". This claim is entirely unsourced. To Wikify this claim, an unbiased, reliable third-party needs to provide evidence. No, the Order of St. Lazarus simply claiming it to be true isn't enough. To demonstrate to the standards of WP:VERIFY that he's the 49th Grand Master, they need to make public reliable records showing an unbroken line of succession from #1 through #49. 4. Under "...Pedigree", it claims "On 15 February 1975 Don Carlos married Dona Maríá las Nieves Castellano y Barón Marquesa de Almazán...acquiring the title of Marqués de Almazán..." This makes no sense to me. First, because I've never heard of a title such as "Baron Marquesa"; in aristocratic terminology, the superior title would be used first, and supplementary/junior titles might be added later, but "Baron Marquesa"? And second, because it would be highly unusual for a man to receive a title like "Marquesa" through marriage unless the bride happens to be a queen or a princess royal. "Dona Maríá las Nieves Castellano" turns up essentially nothing from a Google search, and "Marqués de Almazán" relating to Mr. Gereda seems to be exclusively pages about the Order of St. Lazarus. I'd want to see reliable, third-party evidence that he acquired a legitimate title of marquis. It should be noted that Mr. Gereda's entry on ThePeerage.com (last updated in 2003) makes no mention of him possessing any nobiliary title. It should also be noted that "pedigree" means something that one is born with, not something that someone acquires through marriage. 5. Mr. Gereda's "career" claims are not only unsourced, they would appear to be non-notable. In short, the entire article needs to be pruned and improved. If no one else steps up to do that within the next couple of weeks, I'll do it myself. Bricology (talk) 22:51, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Without commenting one way or the other on the notability question, I do want to make a point on the subject's title and his wife. The wife is called "Maríá de las Nieves Castellano y Barón" as in having 2 surnames in the Spanish tradition. His use of the title of Marqués de Almazán comes from jure uxoris since it is his wife who is the legitimate title holder. If he ever divorces his wife, we loses the title. Finally, you can confirm the title by searching for "Almazan" on this site of the Guide of titles of the Spanish Kingdom maintained by the Diputación y Consejo de la Grandeza de España (in Spanish) which is an official government entity. -- Kimon talk 12:31, 28 March 2013 (UTC)