Talk:Don Draper/Archives/2012

Ask Men Quote
"In 2009, Don Draper was named the most influential man in the world by Ask Men ahead of such figures as Michael Phelps and Barack Obama." Does this really belong in the introduction? I doubt that Ask Men has that much authority in terms of ranking influential people. Daskos99 (talk) 02:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mad Men - Don Draper.jpg
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BetacommandBot 17:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Please note that a new picture has been attached to the page that contains proper fair use rationale. Jrt989 (talk) 21:40, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Don Draper Age Issue
If Don Draper is 36 in 1962, he must have been born around 1926. This means that there's no way he's 18 during the Korean War. The youngest he'd be is 24. The odd bit would be how would he avoid enlistment in WW2? He would be arond 18-19 during that period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.110.138 (talk) 07:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The age that "Don" claims to be might actually be the real Don Draper's age. If Dick Whitman was a private (18 or 19?), and Don Draper a lieutenant (22?), then it would make sense if Dick started claiming to be older after he took Don's identity.
 * In season 1, when Pete finds out about Don's true identity, he states that based on the military records, he should be 41. This is in 1960, giving the real Don Draper a birth year of 1919.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.205.14.152 (talk) 19:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Further, if Don was 18 during the Korean War, the oldest he could possibly be in Season 1 Episode 1 was 27 or 28 years of age. If you follow the math from other context clues, that actually means he is only two years older than Pete and actually younger than Betty. The timeline makes no sense. 121.113.156.129 (talk) 12:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I was never under the impression that "Uncle Mack" was Don Draper's stepmother's new lover. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.71.139.248 (talk) 12:48, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

There are some implications made in this entry that are entirely suppositions. For instance, the gas can explosion that killed the real Don Draper could have been initially caused by the enemy gun fire and not just as an accident caused by Dick Whitman. Also, this implication that Dick urinated in his pants isn't entirely clear in the episode. Wasn't that gasoline on his pants and not urine? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.235.214.135 (talk) 08:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Another speculation in the entry is that "Draper continues to support her (Anna Draper) financially, because Draper's deception makes it impossible for Anna to collect death benefits from the army." They never state that rationale in the show. Rather, they seem to show Dick/Don supporting her because they've formed a genuine personal attachment; she's the only person that he can be his real self with.

'Also known as'/'born'
This is regarding Revision as of 22:09, 22 August 2009 by 75.69.241.91. That editor left a note on my talk page stating, in part:
 * I've noticed that you changed the opening sentence of the Don Draper entry to read "Born Dick Whitman". I had previously changed the entry to read "also known as Richard Whitman" for a very specific reason. The phrase "Born Dick Whitman", "Born Norma Jean Baker" or any other such permutation in a Wikipedia article suggests that either the subjects name was changed legally or that the subject adapted a stage name or a professional name that they were known by.
 * In the case of the fictional character of 'Don Draper', this man is using the name of a dead man, and has not legally changed his name to Donald Draper, nor is he using the name simply for business uses. ...
 * To state "born Richard Whitman" at the opening of the Draper entry is deceptive, even though it is, by definition, factual.
 * I admit that my phrasing "also known as", while also accurate, does not flow well. If you can write a new sentence that takes into consideration the point I made, I think that would be a good compromise.

First, I'd like to recommend to this editor that he or she get a user name. It's difficult to have a discussion with an anonymous user who doesn't have a real talk page.

Second, I'd like to agree with the statement that this is a very small point and is not one I'm inclined to spend a lot of time on.

Given that, however, I'd like to disagree somewhat with some of the points made:
 * 1. "Born ..." does not imply anything regarding the law. It simply indicates that one name was one given at birth and another name was one being actively used. The "legality" of a name is a thorny issue. Under U.S. law at least, you are prohibited from committing fraud, but other than that, nothing can stop you from using whatever name you want. Thus, if Draper's actions were ever to come before the law, he would be punished for desertion, and possibly some other crimes (fraudulent use of social security numbers? fraudulent collection of benefits? Who knows), but nothing could stop him from calling himself Don Draper for the rest of his life, so long as he was no longer pretending to be that Don Draper. And, really, that Don Draper, having died in Korea, is not one that very many people continue to know as a real person. So the extent of the fraud is quite limited. So, his "real name" is Don Draper so long as he wants it to be Don Draper, even if he ever gets caught and prosecuted for whatever fraud he might have committed.
 * 2. "Also known as ..." or other locutions are illogical when it comes to fictional characters. Don Draper is not "also known as" Dick Whitman. Who "knows" him as that? Nobody, mostly because he doesn't exist. Second, when he is known (as a fictional character) he's known as "Don Draper." The "Dick Whitman" part is merely part of his back history. Fictional characters shouldn't be written about as if they are real people.

To sum up, I disagree with the anonymous editor's contention that using "born as" is in any way deceptive or that the legal status of Draper's identity bears at all on the issue. And I disagree that "also known as" is accurate, given that no one actually "knows" him by that name. Acsenray (talk) 18:24, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree as well that "born as" is probably more accurate. I also changed the name slightly. The article originally said "also known as Richard Whitman" but I don't think I've EVER heard Don refered to as Richard Whitman. He's always referred to as "Dick" (and if the flashback in Out of Town is truthful then it's probably Dick on his birth certificate.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.197.247 (talk) 16:07, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Season 3's flashback revealed his legal birth name is Dick, not Richard.
 * That scene is ambiguous. It doesn't actually say that his legal name is not "Richard."

Acsenray (talk) 20:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The prostitute's helper called him 'Dick', which, to the best of my knowledge, would not make this his legal name.

On top of that, it was not really a "flashback" as Richard was but a few hours old. He would not be capable neurologically of forming or retaining memories, so how can a man's imagining of the circumstances immediately after his birth be the basis for the revealing of his legal name? That makes zero sense, and I'm surprised that somebody as intelligent as you are, did not realize this. (unsigned)


 * Whether it comes from his memory or not is irrelevant. Any time an event from the past is shown during a narrative, it's a flashback. Druff (talk) 22:22, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Verified: Draper's Real Name is 'Richard Whitman' NOT 'Dick Whitman
Draper's legal name is 'Richard Whitman' and that was verified in episode 310, when Betty discovers Richard Whitman's government issued 'Dog tags'. If you still question this, go to [url]http://www.amctv.com/originals/madmen/episode310[/url] which verifies this.(75.69.241.91 (talk) 20:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC))

My point was that while the phrase "born Dick Whitman" is, by definition, accurate (as was "also known as Dick Whitman"), the wording is very likely to be misunderstood by the wider public, especially those unfamiliar with the show. For instance that particular wording is used almost exclusively in regards to real life figures of some notability who have either legally changed their name, or adopted a name for professional reasons. As for the person who stated that "born as" is "more" accurate, I would point out that both descriptions are totally factual. One is no more or less "accurate". Something is either accurate or not. Yes, he was born as 'Dick Whitman' and yes, he is also known as 'Dick Whitman' given that some characters (Peter Campbell, Bert Cooper, the real Draper's wife) are aware of his true identity.

You and I know what is meant by "born Dick Whitman", and I am not implying that you are trying to mislead anyone, but the way it was worded it could easily be interpreted to mean that there was a legal name change, due to the fact that the few times you hear similar phrasing, it always has to do with either a famous outlaw, or a famous actor who have taken a new name.

My other point, is that since this an entry for a fictional character, there was no real reason to throw in a plot point in the first sentence. The whole Whitman/Draper story is detailed on this page. With either wording, the opening paragraph was weaker, and did not flow well. (75.69.241.91 (talk) 01:49, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

Sterling Discovers Draper
Well sorry but don't how to start a new topic. Roger Sterling says he found Don Draper selling furs unless I misunderstood that. Think it was in Season 3 Finale or the one before that if not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.168.152.74 (talk) 23:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you want to go with this section, but I took the liberty of starting a header for you. If I remember correctly, Sterling mentioned discovering Draper as a copy writer for a fur company at some other point as well, but I may be mistaken. I know Don has mentioned this as well. (75.69.241.91 (talk) 23:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC))

Nobody Knows Him as Dick Whitman???
Acsenray states: "And I disagree that "also known as" is accurate, given that no one actually "knows" him by that name."

Oh really??? (scratches head)

How about Peter Campbell, Bertram Cooper, the real Mrs Draper, the group of hot rod enthusiasts he met while in California, the old friend who greeted him as "Dick Whitman" on the commuter rail, his deceased half brother Adam Whitman also knew, and God knows what other characters from his past may pop up at a later date.

How are all these people "no one"???!!!

So just what is your disagreement based on? It's certainly not based on facts. Have you ever actually watched the show? Your comment is the only thing here that is "not accurate", in fact, it's puzzling.

Acsenray states: "1. Born ... does not imply anything regarding the law. It simply indicates that one name was one given at birth and another name was one being actively used."

No, in this context, it implies that "Dick Whitman" is no longer his legal name, it's essentially framing that name in the past tense. For it not to be his legal name only a legal name change would change that. If I said to you, "I was born Allison Levin", you will likely assume that it is no longer my name either through marriage, or a legal name change.

It does not state that there has been a name change, but using common sense, it does imply that.

It's weasely wording. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.241.91 (talk) 20:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

And nobody else seems to have had a problem posting on my talk page. I wrote to you about the issue and instead of contacting me, you cut and pasted my comments here for some reason.

If you are new to Wikipedia, and learning the ropes, you can always get an experienced editor to "adopt" you.

Usually if someone contacts you on your page with a reasonable request, you contact that editor, and try to resolve the issue, not "cut and paste" their comments elsewhere.

(75.69.241.91 (talk) 19:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC))

Whilst most of those people mentioned know that Don Draper was originally "Dick Whitman", the fact is that only Anna Draper actually knew him as "Dick Whitman" and would call him that normally. Campbell and the others know him as Don Draper, and became aware of his secret afterwards. Personally I think the fact that "Don Draper" is an assumed identity is very important to understanding the character. Don Draper IS NOT Dick Whitman, he is a part that Dick Whitman is playing. He is actually pretending to be someone else, and this affects his relationships with other people. It is also, presumably, one reason for his brilliance as an Ad Man. He has learned to be very "convincing" in presenting a style, an image which people expect to see, and want to see. His "new life" depends upon his ability to seem plausible, to mould himself (or the role he plays) into what is expected of the part he has decided to play. But the real man is lost in all of this. When he runs to see Anna in the Second Season, he mentions that he "blew it" with his wife and family, and commented that he just seems to be "looking in" on his life and can't actually get to it. To that extent, I would suggest that Don Draper is actually a fictional character created by Dick Whitman: a man whom Dick Whitman would like to be - educated, successful, with a stable family in an affluent area. This is presumably one of the things which attracted him to Beatty: who was educated, a successful model, who added glamour and the "image" he sought, and who was from a reasonably prosperous family. I suspect that Don Draper is used as a metaphor for the advertising industry in General: a carefully crafted image designed to appeal, and win trust, but a confected image nonetheless.== Don Draper and Love ==

I feel like the issue of Don Draper's views on love is poorly addressed on this page in general. From very early on in the series, he admits to not believe in love; he says that it's a word invented by people like him. Later on in the series, he appears to experience love, and it becomes a large question--is he acting? Is he lying to himself? Does he love any of his lady friends? Eventually, we are brought back to the question of whether any part of Don's persona is real.

He compellingly claims that he loves Betty, and is then appears to get jealous, and then even seems to forgive her. Is it one big ego trip? Is he putting an act on for others? Or does Don Draper really feel human emotions?

Love does not warrant its own section; I request that, for the future, edits to the page come with further attention paid to this motif. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.195.73.157 (talk) 03:49, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Anna's Death
Someone deleted my text indicating that Anna presumably did not know her killer, cancer. This was part of a long plot point in which Anna's sister ordered Dick not to disclose it to her or send her for additional opinions or treatments. This is also critical character building for Don Draper/Dick Whitman b/c Don is condescending and would never accede to the wishes of a mere woman, while Dick was highly solicitous of other people's feelings, dresses badly, and is much more representative of humble beginnings. I say the text should be restored. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.168.22 (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

"From Brooklyn to Long Island"
Since Brooklyn is on the island, maybe somebody can come up with better language? elpincha (talk) 16:29, 16 September 2011 (UTC)