Talk:Don R. Berlin

Thanks, etcetera
Thank you again to Malke 2010 and Bzuk for vastly improving this article. It really looks professional now!

2. The article should probably be moved to "Don R. Berlin". That's how he's named in his NYT obit and that's how he signed his correspondence when he was chief engineer at Curtiss-Wright and how he's referred to by a C-W test pilot in this 1939 Saturday Evening Post article. (Find another example here from 1962 when he was an exec at Boeing Vertol !).

3. I don't have full access to the NYT obit (I'm a cheapskate), but it probably has info the article needs like DOB and POB (the college yearbook only said he was "from" Brook, Ind., not necessarily born there). He also has a bio at ANB online which I don't have access to either.

4. I cannot understand why he is not enshrined in the National Aviation Hall of Fame, though the Wayne Johnson piece mentions he's been nominated. Did the problems with the Curtiss Helldiver leave a bad taste in too many mouths? His P-40 alone, imho, is a greater contribution than that of astronauts and other enshrinees I've never heard of (though I'd stipulate that my opinion is not an expert opinion).

Onward and upward. --108.45.72.196 (talk) 00:32, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Typically, "common name" is the qualifier for naming Wiki articles; if Don R. Berlin appears to be the most commonly used name, then, a change can be warranted. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 19:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Sobriquet
My contention is that the definition of sobriquet states: "a descriptive name or epithet : nickname, also: a humorous epithet, assumed name, or nickname." I concede that many dictionary definitions do define it as simply a person's nickname. The wikipedia article uses the term more broadly. In the case of this article, the "Berlin hairlift" is a joke based on the use of the colloquial name for the blockade and airlift, "The Berlin Airlift", as opposed to a more formal or official teminology or title. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 00:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Following up, to me, this is a minor point, but a variance that can satisfy both of our contentions is:"The catchphrase "Berlin Hairlift" was reputed to refer to the large number of scalps Berlin took; cleverly conflating the term from the Berlin Airlift (1948–1949)." FWiW Bzuk (talk) 00:23, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
 * "The catchphrase "Berlin Hairlift" was reputed to refer to the large number of scalps Berlin took; a clever play on the Berlin Airlift (1948–1949)."
 * This last one is good, Bzuk. Thanks for your efforts.  --108.45.72.196 (talk) 00:40, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

image of Curtiss execs
Bzuk, can you do a thorough review of this image so we can be sure who's in it and when it was taken? First we thought Berlin was the man in the dark suit in the middle; now, I don't think Berlin is in the photo at all. One reason: Berlin was a very tall man, as you can see from the photo of him getting the cert from the FAA guy, standing in front of the helicopter in 1962. In our "Curtiss execs" image, however, he's the shortest of the four! Unlikely it's him. I put Herbert O. Fisher in the caption, redlinked, because I think he deserves his own article—he's the only civilian pilot to ever receive the USAAF’s Air Medal—and in his leather flying helmet and goggles he looks like John Belushi! Fisher is pointing to Curtiss's 15,000th fighter (not just P-40's but all fighters), decorated with decals of all 28 countries that were flying the plane. The 15,000th came off the Buffalo assembly-line on Wednesday, November 22, 1944 (the press release doesn't give the year but in 1944, Nov. 22 fell on a Wednesday). --108.45.72.196 (talk) 17:05, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Herbert O. Fisher
Here's the evidence that confirms that the man pointing is Herb Fisher: P-47 Thunderbolt Pilots Association:  Herbert O. Fisher. Herb needs his own article. --108.45.72.196 (talk) 03:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
 * See 1942 photo and 1943 photo where Herb is already prematurely grey. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 19:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

IMHO, there is enough to do an article on Herb Fisher. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 19:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yup, there was. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 02:45, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Burdette S. Wright
Check out this photo of vice-president and general manager of the Curtiss Aeroplane Division of the Curtiss-Wright Corporation, Burdette S. Wright. He looks much like Fisher but would likely be the man in a photo of Curtiss company executives. See: 1940 Photo source. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 19:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The clincher for me (that it's Herb Fisher in our "Curtiss execs" photo pointing at #15,000) is that Herb Fisher is slightly wall-eyed. His right eye is noticeably eccentric in several photos.  His hair is salt and pepper grey, not a uniform shade like Burdette's.  He doesn't part his hair in the middle like Burdette does.  Another distinctive feature of Herb's face is his eyebrows:  they are long, relatively thick, straight, and always noticeably darker than a lot of his hair color (partly because, as you point out, he was "prematurely" grey).  Herb's nose is also smaller than Burdette's—this is obvious if you compare Herb in our "execs" photo with a newspaper photo I found of Burdette holding his baby son standing next to another aviator holding his new child, standing next to Jimmy Doolittle holding his young child. (I'll try and find it and link it here).


 * Is "Chief Test Pilot" or "Chief of Production Test Pilots" an "executive position"? If not, we may have an issue with whoever captioned our image "Curtiss execs".  At the Flikr source, I don't see any information about the photo, including who's in it or when and where it was taken.  All I know is it came from the San Diego Air & Space Museum collection.  Maybe you can find full caption info for us from the museum, like who the other three gentlemen are.  Thank you for linking to the photos of Herb and Burdette—I had seen them before I came to the conclusion that it's Herb in our "execs" photo.


 * Another avenue of confirmation is Herb, Jr. who I believe is still alive and living in Texas. He commented in a blog that his father never threw anything away and he inherited it all, so a quarter of his garage is the Herb Sr. archive.  --108.45.72.196 (talk) 21:48, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Herb was grey-haired by 1943, and that just doesn't jibe with the photo that shows a predominantly dark haired individual. The kicker is to have his son look at the photo. If he says that it is dad, then it is a definitive evaluation. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 22:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Whoa, in looking at the photo in closer detail, it's possible to see that the individual may have a salt-and-pepper hairdo, which does make it possible to say it was Herb. Feel free to change the caption (I left information in an "invisible note" so that it could be changed easily; perhaps it doesn't need a change at all, especially if a new article is arising where the photo can be featured more prominently.) As for the caption from the San Diego Air and Space archives, it would be unlikely to be fulsome. I recently visited their offices and the work is mainly done through a volunteer effort, and likely all the information that is available is already provided in the caption. The museum is doing yeoman work in posting a vast archive collection and some of the information is not as detailed as it could be, but full marks to them for the work they have already done. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 22:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Serious Errors in design attribution
This article contains serious errors in design attribution. Don Berlin was a great aircraft designer but this article attributes him with the design of several aircraft which he had little or nothing to do with the creation of. Following the Fischer XP-75 and XP-75A disasters Don Berlin did continue in the airplane industry. He did have significant administrative talents and influence. It is, however, wrong to attribute him with being responsible for the designs of the F3H, XF-88, and XF-85 as well as helicopters deigned by Piasecki. The project engineer on the XF-88 was Edward M. "Bud" Flesh who was assisted by Herman Barkey. Herman Barkey was responsible for the XF-85, and F3H, as well as the F-101 and F4H. Piasecki Helicopter Corporation was a classic example of a talented engineer who was overwhelmed by the growth of his creation into a significant business which required essential administrative and financial abilities which the great and innovative helicopter designer lacked. After he was deposed, for sound business reasons, Frank Piasecki want on to found Piasecki Aircraft which created a number of interesting aircraft from the Piasecki VZ-8 Airgeep to the Piasecki Turais air launched UAV. Frank Paisecki died in 2008.

Perhaps the original creator of this article would desire to make the necessary changes.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 18:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC)