Talk:Donald Cameron of Lochiel

Untitled
I've removed a link to a picture - according to the DNB, who I'll take as having done the research, "No portrait of Lochiel has survived". This is presumably a speculative or a misattributed one. Shimgray | talk | 20:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

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Update
Large parts of this article are really interesting (in terms of social developments) but not necessarily relevant to a biography. It needs updating and expanding in certain areas; maybe some restructuring to ensure the work isn't lost.

Robinvp11 (talk) 18:28, 8 May 2019 (UTC)


 * A lot can be replaced; Lochiel's personal contribution aside most of the material on Culloden seems better placed elsewhere and is also not in line with modern assessments of whst actually happened.


 * The main thing missing from the article is any background on why Lochiel might have got involved in 1745 beyond a vague and sentimental idea of duty, which seems unconvincing as we know he was an active long term plotter and an intelligent and capable man (well, d'Eguilles thought so).


 * I've seen it stated a few times that Lochiel was a 'progressive' landlord (in relative terms!) which suggests there was less of a financial motive, but for me the most telling detail is Murray of Broughton's assertion, dated 1743, that they had already discussed going it alone without French support as "the Government designs by all methods to ruin the Highlands". Murray comments that Glengarry, Clanranald, Keppoch and Appin were on their last legs financially and will either have to "sell their lands or conform" (Blaikie, 1916, p.39). So we know Lochiel is worried about the financial state of the north-western landlords in general - all men closely connected to him. For all his later protestations I don't think it would have taken that much to convince him.


 * Having said that Murray's papers often describe Lochiel as the one pressing for some form of action - this seems to square with Gibson's assessment that Lochiel was ultimately bought up to being a rebel as a political principle. Svejk74 (talk) 10:51, 9 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I've made a start (updated Murray of Broughton, which took a while :)). I agree with the point about the financial issues but I don't think Murray's argument follows. All the available data show that the idea of a rising without French support filled the vast majority with horror; Lochiel was described as being in a state of despair on hearing Charles was coming anyway, while even Murray of Broughton spent weeks sitting around Western Scotland hoping to intercept him before he landed.


 * I suspect they'd got to a 'put up or shut up' point; and to use a similar lesson from Brexit :), maybe it was 'if this is the best economic position I can hope for, how could it be worse?'

Robinvp11 (talk) 18:30, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Muster Roll; not sure where this should go but it doesn't belong in a biography
The names of the Jacobite soldiers who were in Donald Cameron of Lochiel's regiment during the Jacobite rising of 1745 were:

Colonels
 * John Cameron
 * Donald Cameron of Lochiel

Lieutenant Colonels
 * Dr Archibald Cameron of Lochiel (Inverness-shire)
 * Ludovic Cameron of Tor Castle

Majors
 * Alexander Cameron of Dungallon Dungallon, Argyllshire

Captains
 * Donald Cameron (Glenpean)
 * John Cameron
 * Hugh Cameron of Annock
 * Allan Cameron of Callart Inverness or Callart Principal Servant to Lochiel
 * Ewen Cameron of Dawnie
 * Alexander Cameron of Drimnasall
 * Ewen Cameron of Inverlochy

Lieutenants
 * Allan Cameron of Lundarva Argyll
 * Allan Cameron, Jr. Cadet of Callart
 * Allan Cameron, Snr.

Ensigns
 * James Cameron

Officers
 * Ewen Cameron (Argyll)
 * Allan Cameron
 * Archibald Cameron Sunart, Argyll Tacksman of Auchelellan
 * Donald Cameron Callart (Ferry Brewer)
 * Duncan Mor Cameron (9 Mile Water,Lochaber Braes, Brewer)
 * Ewen Cameron
 * Finlay Cameron
 * Hugh Cameron (Loch Arkaig, Lochaber)
 * John Cameron (Argyll)
 * John Cameron (Chelsea Pensioner)
 * Archibald MacDonald (Clenaig, Lochaber)

Adjutants
 * Donald Mor Cameron Erracht

Chaplains
 * Rev. Alexander Cameron, S.J. (Strathglass, Jesuit Priest) Lochiel’s brother.
 * Rev. Duncan Cameron (Fortingall, Episcopalian Minister)
 * Rev. John Cameron (Fort William, Church of Scotland Minister)

Sergeants
 * Alexander Cameron (Stronlia, Maryburgh)
 * Duncan Cameron (Dalmachornra, Brewer)
 * John Cameron (Corpach, Brewer)
 * Malcolm Cameron (Argyll)

Rank not known
 * Samuel Cameron (Kilmallie, Lochaber)

Not listed in Muster Roll
 * John M’Douall (Argyll)
 * Donald MacLachlan (Tenant)
 * Donald MacLean (Argyllshire)

Private men
 * Alexander Cameron (Inverness-shire)
 * Donald Cameron (Inverness-shire, Husbandry near Fort William)
 * Archibald Cameron (Inverness-shire)
 * Murdoch Cameron (Inverness-shire)
 * Dougall Cameron (Inverness)
 * Malcolm Cameron (Fort William)
 * Alexander Cameron (Lochaber, Labourer)
 * Alexander Cameron (Lochaber, Labourer)
 * Daniel Cameron (Ardnamurchan, Argyll-shire)
 * Donald Cameron (Rahoy, Morvern, Argyllshire) (Chapman)
 * Dougal Cameron (Inverness-shire)
 * Ewan Mor Cameron (Maryburgh near Fort William) (Ale Seller)
 * John Cameron (Lochaber, Labourer)
 * John Cameron (Lochaber, Labourer)
 * John Cameron (Lochaber, Labourer)
 * Alexander Cameron (Appin)
 * Alexander Cameron (Rae, Lochaber)
 * Alexander Cameron (Fenart, Rannoch)
 * Alexander Cameron (Lochaber)
 * Alexander Cameron (Lochaber, Labourer)
 * Alexander Cameron (Maryburgh)
 * Alexander Cameron (Torbane, Sunart)
 * Alexander Cameron (Loch Arkaig)
 * Alexander Cameron (Altavullin, Braes of Lochaber)
 * Angus Cameron (Maryburgh)
 * Angus Cameron (Stroan, Lochaber)
 * Archibald Cameron (Moy, Lochaber)
 * Charles Cameron (Muirsleach, Lochaber)
 * Donald Cameron (Auchnacarry, Lochaber)
 * Donald Cameron (Annaid, Lochaber)
 * Donald Cameron (Argyllshire)
 * Donald Cameron (Banavie, Lochaber)
 * Donald Cameron (Gortanorn, Ardnamurchan)
 * Donald Cameron (Kelloalline, Lochaber)
 * Donald Cameron (Muirsleach, Badenoch)
 * Donald Cameron (Tarbet, Ardnamurchan)
 * Dugald Cameron (Auchnacarry, Lochaber)
 * Duncan Cameron (Stroan, Lochaber)
 * Duncan Cameron (Strounley)


 * Ewen Cameron (Bailleach, Lochaber)
 * Ewen Cameron (Banavie, Lochaber)
 * Ewen Cameron (Bonarcraig, Lochaber, Brewer)
 * Ewen Cameron (Kilmanivaig, Lochaber, Brewer)
 * Ewen Cameron (Stroan Lochaber)
 * Hugh Cameron (Labourer)
 * John Cameron (Auchnacarry, Lochaber)
 * John Cameron (Argyllshire)
 * John Cameron Rae (Lochaber)
 * John Cameron (Corran, Lochaber)
 * John Cameron (Lochaber, Labourer)
 * John Cameron (Stroan, Lochaber)
 * John Cameron (Strontian, Whisky maker)
 * Murdoch Cameron (Inverness-shire)
 * Dougal Cameron (Tarbet, Ardnamurchan)
 * Duncan Campbell (Perthshire)
 * Alexander Campbell (Lochaber, Drover)
 * Duncan Campbell (Argyllshire)
 * William Fraser (Inverness-shire)
 * John Grant (Lochaber or Badenoch) (Labourer)
 * John MacDougall (Argyllshire, Tenant to Robertson of Struan)
 * Duncan MacKenzie (Argyllshire Tailor at Ferry House, Achnacarry)
 * Donald MacKenzie (Ballachulish, Argyll)
 * Duncan MacKenzie (Ballachulish, Argyll)
 * Alexander MacLeod (Inverness-shire)
 * Alexander MacMartin (Inverglory)
 * Alexander MacMartin (Lawsneroy)
 * Angus MacMartin (Torness)
 * Donald MacMartin (Glenhurich)
 * Donald MacMartin (Hannard)
 * Donald MacMartin (Letterfinlay)
 * Donald MacMartin (Mucomir)
 * Donald MacMartin (Tartness)
 * Duncan MacMartin (Inverfoy)
 * Evain MacMartin (Mucomir)
 * Evan MacMartin (Rallegrey)
 * John MacMartin (Inverglory)
 * John MacMartin (Tartness)
 * Malcolm MacMartin (Inverness-shire)
 * Martin MacMartin (Hannard)
 * Samuel MacMartin (Ratslarbeg)
 * Archibald MacMillan (Argyll, Servant to Ewen Cameron Glenfean)
 * Duncan MacNeill (Lochaber, Miner at Wanlockhead)
 * Ewen MacPhee (Loch Arkaig, Servant to Donald Cameron of Clunes)
 * - MacPherson (Tenant of Lochiel)
 * John Marchand (Inverness-shire)

Edits made
Thanks for the edits; I'm not convinced by the attribution of the picture but it appears on numerous Wikipedia pages. That doesn't make it right but presumably someone must know. I've added back the house but changed the caption; pictures make articles more appealing to readers but if you have alternative suggestions, let me know.

Robinvp11 (talk) 18:26, 11 May 2019 (UTC)


 * I've done some research - this is the attribution of the painting used by the current owners, so I think its reasonable to use it with the caption.

Robinvp11 (talk) 10:23, 14 May 2019 (UTC)


 * There's a good chance it's derived from an earlier sketch; the reason for caution is that the clothing reflects the fashions of the 1760s rather than the 1730s/40s though Chalmers could have been copying a very basic source and filling in the details.


 * The Achnacarry family have certainly always identified it as Donald Cameron; Scott recalled once seeing a portrait of Lochiel who he described as a "dark hard-featured man" but he could well have been remembering something else. Seems legitimate to have it here! Svejk74 (talk) 11:08, 14 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The cite here goes back to a rather obscure historical novelist’s personal webpage. Whether the writer’s work deserves to be self-published, I dunno, but it is, and that’s generally a no-no for wikisourcing. So, Scott saw an obviously different portrait, but he must have been wrong, and the current generation of the family holds this one is authentic, and they must be right? --Qwirkle (talk) 13:57, 14 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Scott's anecdote, and it is no more than that, is very vague, it just happens to be one of the issues raised with the existing portrait. Some of the arguments are discussed in Gibson's 1994 bio, p.170, which also notes that the current Lochiel thinks Scott may have been thinking of the portrait of Lochiel's grandfather Ewen. I don't see any issue with it, particularly - I have added the Gibson ref in any case. Svejk74 (talk) 14:19, 14 May 2019 (UTC)