Talk:Donald Payne (British Army soldier)/Archive 1

First
Donald Payne is not the first member of the British Armed Forces to commit a war crime, for example Wellington's provost marshal was forever hanging and flogging men for war crimes. Payne is the first to be in breach of the provisions of the International Criminal Court Act 2001. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you cite a reliable source that says those men were convicted of war crimes? Dozens of fairly reliable sources say Payne was the first.  For example, The Guardian has referred to him as "the first British soldier ever to be convicted of a war crime".  The BBC says he's "Britain's first convicted war criminal".  So do AP and Robert Verkaik, the Independent's law editor.  These sources seem pretty solid, and there are plenty more similar ones.  But of course they could all be wrong and it only takes one verified earlier conviction to disprove the claim.  Polemarchus (talk) 23:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It depends on what one means by war crime. If one means a specific offence of "war crime" then as the British International Criminal Court Act 2001 incorporates the wording of the Rome Statute, makes certain types of offence a war crime, then yes it is the first time that someone has been found guilty of committing a war crime. But war crime also has a dictionary meaning (The OED definition (under War) is "war crime, an offence against the rules of war, formerly excluding, but since the 1939-45 war including, any such act performed on the orders of a higher authority; war criminal, one who has committed a war crime;"), and there are a lots of soldiers in the British Army found guilty of an offence against the laws and customs of war since the founding of the British Army in 1701. One well known example of a member of the British armed forces being executed for a war crime (murdering POWs) is Breaker Morant. For this reason there is far less ambiguity in saying that Donald Payne is the first soldier to be found guilty of a war crime under the provisions of the International Criminal Court Act 2001 than the first British Soldier to be found guilty of a war crime. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:19, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You're right, he definitely wasn't "the first British soldier ever to be convicted of a war crime". I wonder where all those media sources picked up the same mistake.  Thanks for clearing it up.  Polemarchus (talk) 22:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Category:International Criminal Court
I'd like to re-add Payne to Category:International Criminal Court. Though he wasn't tried by the ICC, Payne was prosecuted under the International Criminal Court Act 2001, which was enacted as a direct result of the UK joining the ICC. Moreover, as far as I can tell, Payne was the first person in the world to be tried and convicted under national ICC legislation. I think this establishes a close enough link for him to be added to the category, and I think the categorisation is potentially useful for people researching the ICC. Polemarchus (talk) 18:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was the one who removed it. The reason sounds fine to me. It can be re-added and I wouldn't object. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Cheers, Polemarchus (talk) 13:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest that you make two new sub categories one under the other "International Criminal Court convictions" and under that "Rome Statute convictions" (or something similar). Otherwise the inclusion is misleading. --PBS (talk) 14:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if a reference can be found to back up the suggestion that Payne is the first war criminal to be tried and convicted under national ICC legislation anywhere in the world. This would definitely merit a mention. Beorhtwulf (talk) 18:40, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Sentence
Given that Payne was involved in presiding over systematic and deliberate torture involving serious violence, I wonder what kind of sentence he would have received if his offences had been convicted as a civilian torturing other civilians and if he'd been tried for that in a normal crown court. If anyone is familiar with the relevant sentencing guidelines it would be good if they could add something about a typical sentence for his conduct to the article. Likewise if anyone has access to the judge's remarks when passing sentence. I ask because a year for this kind of thing seems decidedly lenient, and I wonder if there was anything considered to be a mitigating factor, such as "war is a stressful business for young soldiers" or "boys will be boys" or similar. Beorhtwulf (talk) 18:40, 27 February 2011 (UTC)