Talk:Doncaster/Archive 1

Comment
The comment in the article "Thus Doncaster became famous for chemical production and contained a huge Chemical works on Wheatley Hall Road." needs to be addressed as it is somewhat inaccurate and quite misleading. In fact the whole section by the way it is worded looks like it has been just been lifted wholesale from another source and may thus fall foul of copyright restrictions.

The only site that might be (incorrectly IMHO) construed as a chemical works in that area was ICI Fibres - formerly British Bembergs. They took polymer chips produced at Wilton (Teeside) and heated and extruded them into fibres for the carpet, clothing and tyre industries - No chemical processing in the conventional sense took place.

Maybe someone can name another location but the only "chemical" works in the immediate Doncaster area I can recall would have been the coking plant at Askern. As an addenda to this topic,it should be noted that there was indeed a chemical plant on Wheatley Hall Road, although I suspect that the one reffered to in the disputed article refers to the former I.C.I. fibres plant. The actual chemical plant was formerley called Thelson Oils, and is now part of the Croda Chemicals Group. (If indeed it is still operating).

As far as I can see, this issue has been, or is resolved. I am removing the disputed flag. M0RHI 05:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Firth
Added back, and then immediately moved to the top of the list. Above the other slightly more famous people. The user responsible has only those two edits. It is spam hence the reason it was removed. - Motor (talk) 01:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * See the arguments on your talk page. I'm aware that there are people out there that are willing to spam to raise the profile of David Firth on Wikipedia. Completely regardless of this, he is from Doncaster, and deserves recognition on his home town article. If someone went on a rampage adding Thomas Crapper's name to things, would you remove it from the Doncaster article? No. What I can see is your attempt to rid Wikipedia of David Firth which you have failed to do. The AfD is a manifestation of this, which failed. All I can see is this being a personal vendetta against such a person. Right or wrong as I am on this, he deserves recognition on at least his hometown article. I am re-adding, in alphabetical order. If you disagree, feel free to open a straw poll here. M0RHI 18:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You don't see an attempt to remove him from Wikipedia. You see legitimate chopping down on a serious case of mass spamming. I read your arguments when you posted them onm my talk page, you, apparently, did not read mine. Would I remove Thomas Crapper's name from here? No... since he is "famous", and has reliable sources. The very arguments you continue to ignore. I'd also be curious to know what this "miniseries" is... since one of half a dozen shorts by different people on E4 certainly doesn't qualify. - Motor (talk) 18:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, you are only about the hundredth person to assume that their article being edited in a Wikipedia sweep up is a "personal vendetta" by me against either them or someone else -- such accusations come with the territory. Clean up is tedious, thankless grunt work that gets opposed all the way people who haven't read the guidelines and policies. For what it's worth, I couldn't care less about Firth outside of Wikipedia... but no doubt you'll continue to assume otherwise, just like all the others. - Motor (talk) 19:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't like nor dislike David Firth, nor do I care about my articles being involved in a sweep. However, I see this as pure pettiness. Over-citing could become a problem. Should it be the case that in a sentence saying "Doncaster is a town in Northern England in South Yorkshire". Should I reference Doncaster being a town, the town being in northern england, and Doncaster being in South Yorkshire? Just as Kevin Keegan isn't referenced as coming from Doncaster, it's taken as read. Until some petty person comes along and decides that you can't take as read. I suggest you get something better to do. I don't care about Firth, but I believe the removal of Firth from the article makes the article less complete. If you'd like to go through and remove all the other unreferenced sources there too, knock yourself out. As you'll note, all the other people there's birthplace is unreferenced. Just blank the whole thing, eh? M0RHI 20:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * However, I see this as pure pettiness. -- yes... well... I'll add that to the list of accusations. As for "over-citing" it's not a problem... case closed. As for blanking the other entries -- well, quite possibly, unless some reliable sources are found. I'd suggest starting with their articles and looking for the sources used there... if the information there is not sources, then request it. If sources are forthcoming, then you can use them here as well. It's not difficult... and it is a basic function of Wikipedia. In the case of the people listed, they undoubtedly have multiple reliable sources. I'll even offer to help you find them if you like. I've looked for sources for David Firth -- only I doubt his fans believe me. Like you, they prefer to believe the worst. I suggest you get something better to do. -- sweeping up rubbish is just fine by me... but thanks for your concern. I know it is sincere. - Motor (talk) 21:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * As I put on your talk page, Motor, I have re-added David Firth. You removed Firth, then requested citations. At least have the decency to request citations on EVERYTHING. If nobody can provide citations after some time, then go ahead and remove it. But, while you are doing so, remove everything else that is unreferenced. None or all. This is no place to be over-prejudicial. M0RHI 21:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You really don't bother to read other people's posts, do you? I have been editing the Firth article... I have looked for sources for information on him. There are none. I have done the legwork, and hence I removed it... and will remove it again tomorrow (check your talk page for an explanation). The others are less controversial and are *now* being challenged for sources (which, in the case of many, I fully expect to be forthcoming). There's nothing prejudicial about it... you just can't be bothered to do a bit of basic research. If you persist in not making an effort to read responses properly, then this will be a long and tedious process. - Motor (talk) 21:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Famous People
Looking through the list, and considering the recent debate over whether David Firth should be included in there, I've noticed that there's two people on there who's links to Doncaster are either tenuous at best, or aren't particularly notable:-


 * Sheridan Smith - she's from Epworth according to her article, which granted is near Doncaster but it's classed as North Lincolnshire - a bit far to be saying she's from Doncaster :)
 * Gary Burt - who?

Just my 2p worth!


 * My grandma lives in Epworth, and that's classed as Doncaster, according to her address. It's about as Doncaster as you're going to get. Either it's classified as Epworth or Scunthorpe, which I think is mildly further. Rather have her listed than not at all. Furthermore, county is not something to go by. I'm pretty sure Snaith is classed as Doncaster - that's in North Yorkshire, Blaxton is Doncaster, that's in Nottinghamshire, Sandtoft is most definately Doncaster, that's North Lincolnshire. Doncaster's just in an awkward position where it straddles roughly five counties.
 * Not sure about Gary Burt, but the fact someone has took the trouble to add him, and add someone who he is famous for his 'verbal sparring' with, must indicate something that I am not aware of, but others are. --M0RHI | Talk to me 03:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough - though I guess this also raises the question - if Gary Burt, why not David Firth? doktorrob&trade; 14:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's justifiable to have Firth in here, the problem arises in having third-party references to him. As the Motor has suggested earlier, he's tried to find them, and they seem not to exist. I'm currently working my way through the remainder of the list to find such references for the remainder. Please do add David Firth if you can find a reference. M0RHI | Talk to me 16:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * References to him being from Doncaster? His last.fm profile says so, and this page (about halfway down) mentions being at Doncaster Art College. doktorrob&trade; 19:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As does my former head of sixth form, he attended the same sixth form college as myself (Danum School). However, this is of course unpublished, and while I have documentary email evidence in the past, the controversy has surrounded the reliability of sources. Personally, I'd have him on the list. If you look back through the history, I was a defender of him, but I had to give way to WP:RS.


 * Doncaster does NOT straddle "roughly five counties" - it is entirely within South Yorkshire. Are you confusing a Donaster (DN) postcode and the town?  Postcodes are not the same as towns (otherwise parts of Manchester would be in Sheffield and Rotherham wouldn't even exist).  To say someone is from Doncaster in a biography ought to mean that they are either from the town itself or from within the modern Doncaster MBC boundaries.  And even this needs to be used with care.  Emeraude 13:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more with some of your comments. Bircotes and Harworth have Doncaster phones codes, Doncaster post codes, Doncaster bank branches AND Doncaster addresses but without the County addendum - because they are in fact in Nottinghamshire. Furthermore Belton also has a Doncaster address but is in East Yorks - go and ask people there - I know people there - better still ask the Royal Mail - they will say they live in Doncaster and all the addresses in Everton, NE LIncs have Doncaster addresses. Again - the population will say they live in Doncaster. Doncaster has a far reaching sphere of influence which is skewed dramatically to the East. Next you'll be telling me that Dronfield isn't in Sheffield. Dronfield is very much a part of Sheffield but Dronfield is on Derbyshire. The belief of where someone lives and is not dictated by a dotted line on a map and dotted lines do not dictate importance or influence. Having said all this I would agree that some aspects of the 'Doncaster Metropolitan Borough' boundary could be challenged. For example the towns that constitute the Dearne Valley have been split between Doncaster, Rotherham and Barnsley and could possibly substantiate a political centre of their own, Perhaps the residents of Epworth have a greater likeness and kinship with Doncaster than say Mexborough. If you look on a map of Doncaster postcodes you'll notice that there is gap where the DN13 postcode should be. This is because DN13 was re=labelled S68 at the last minute. Now there lies a tale! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fy (talk • contribs) 22:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC) (Fy 22:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC))

Sajgótarján as a twin town
Can anyone provide references for this addition as on the Doncaster council website it does not state that this is a twin town or related in any way??? Dbertman 13:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Roman section
''The Roman empirical command of Ninius called this fort "Caer Daun". Later the commands of Antoninus and Notitia called this fort Danum,''

I assume that the Notitia refers to the Notitia Dignitatum. but what does the rest of this mean? Djnjwd 23:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"Caer Daun" means "Fort Daun" in Welsh. Cear is the Welsh for fort, but daun baffels me still.--86.29.142.86 (talk) 09:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Museum?
I worked at the Doncaster Museum in the early 1970s - does anyone know anything about it now please?16:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)Osborne 16:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It's still there: Orbtastic 18:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/Leisure_in_Doncaster/Museums_and_history/Museums/Doncaster_Museum_and_Art_Gallery.asp


 * Yes, it's still there, and Cusworth Hall is still operational as far as I know too, I think this forms both musea left in Doncaster. M0RHI | Talk to me 21:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Early School
School section needed. Doncaster Grammar School was given its charter in 1350. Brenont 04:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Population
Should the population figure in the infobox be only for the town and not the Metropolitan Borough of Doncaster which is where I would expect that figure to be quoted. Using the higher figure is misleading in an article on the town.

Keith D 20:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe that this is a complete bone of contention. The City of Bradford Wiki had the most notorious debate on the entire issue. Where is the boundary?? What defines peoples perceptive boundary of Doncaster? In the case of Bradford, the City only actual has a population of 80,000 however (and before someone creates a counter arguement) you will notice that the Wikipedia page shows much more. This is because Bradford is really only the very Centre of the District. The rest of Bradford is made up of lots of other towns that have merged over time. Similarly Sheffield formed historically as two big towns - Ecclesfield and Sheffield - to become one. If you asked a person living in Adwick which town do they live in? What would they say? (Fy 22:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC))


 * The problem is that "city" has a legal definition whereas "town" does not. Legally, the city of Bradford is the council area, which includes Ilkley and various other places that one does not immediately associate with Bradford.  Perhaps, a compromise would be to use the census figure for Doncaster's population.  That is seven years old now, but I doubt that it has changed that much since 2001.  Epa101 (talk) 18:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Local phrases removed
I removed this paragraph:

''Doncaster has some distinctive local phrases including "me head's a shed", meaning I am confused or I don't remember and "me Duck", which can be used as a general greeting such as "ay up me Duck" (hello) or "That will be 30p me Duck". "Me Duck" is also used in Worksop and other towns to the South. Another distinctive word is the miners word "snap" for food, for example "I am going to the chippie for some snap".''

It needs to be referenced, or else it violates Wikipedia policy on verifiability. Furthermore, I know that "duck" is a general Midlands phrase, often used in the Stoke strip May un Mar Lady. "Snap" is used where I live in Ossett, which is 25 miles away from Doncaster: it is a general urban Yorkshire word. Epa101 (talk) 18:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Protection
I have semi-protected for a time for any discussion to take place over the population figure in the infobox which is explained in the text as far as I can see. The lower figure for Doncaster the middle figure for Doncaster plus some areas and the higher figure for the metropolitan area. Keith D (talk) 17:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Twin towns
Some of the twin towns stuff can probably be removed, since this article claims that the mayor has scrapped the twinning agreements. doktorrob&trade; 12:04, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Uncritical tone
While it is understandable that Wikipedia articles on locations will be written by people with local loyalties and hence be generally positive in tone, I think this article is ridiculously uncritical of Doncaster and the surrounding area. It reads like a PR press release from the local council to encourage inward investment. Donny may be a wonderful place (I've never lived there) but a bit more balance would improve the article. When all's said and done, this is an area that had the guts ripped out of it following the miners' strike and subsequent pit closures. --80.176.142.11 (talk) 22:12, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Donnygate
should there be some mention of 'Donnygate' in the politics section of Doncaster? it was - according to the Guardian - 'The worst local government corruption case since the Poulson scandal of the 1970s' http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/mar/13/uknews —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.219.211.84 (talk) 09:58, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably it should be in Metropolitan Borough of Doncaster article rather than the Doncaster article if it needs to be discussed. Keith D (talk) 20:48, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Weather
I find the comment about it "rarely snowing" in Doncaster baffling. I've lived here since the early 70s and can assure you that it snows nearly every winter. The article makes it sound like snow is some sort of new phenomenon, when in fact it snows quite heavily and schools closing etc was quite commonplace. Cusworth hill is a very popular sledging venue and has been for decades. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orbtastic (talk • contribs) 16:52, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, and snow comments removed - original research at best. OK, so it doesn't snow in Doncaster in July and August, but having moved there form London in 1975 I can attest to there being snow frequently in Doncaster since then. But that's original research too....... Emeraude (talk) 17:09, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 14:41, 1 May 2016 (UTC)